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Pokémon Greninja

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Punchshroom said:
You know there's a reason even stuff like Mega Charizard Y would not resort to Blast Burn despite the greater KOing potential. Leaving yourself wide open whether you KOed the target or not is hardly a worthy trade off. Oh, saving Hyper Beam until it's almost dead? Are you saying you have only 3 moves to work with until you're ready to kick the bucket? The only way Hyper Beam won't give up a free turn is if you did not KO the opponent and they KO you.

So you're telling me I have this awesomely strong attack, but the only way I don't risk screwing myself over when using it is if I go out in a bang but not KO my target anyway? Yeah, Hyper Beam is not good.
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You have to nuance "free turn". If you don't take that "free turn" to kill Greninja and instead setup, you're wasting a kill. Ofcourse you have to take the recharge turn into account with Hyper Beam, that's why I said many times that it's ideal to use it the turn before you die to get off a big hit before going down (I think that's one of the first things I said when Hyper Beam was brought up), or to 2HKO/OHKO certain threats you couldn't otherwise. Mega Charizard Y is something completely different, it has Fire Blast which is much better than Blast Burn in every way. Greninja has Protean to make Hyper Beam usable, and it has good neutral coverage and great power.

TeraVolt I never realized you could run five Hidden Powers, U-turn, Extrasensory and Grass Knot in one moveslot. Sorry for missing that. To be serious, you're just proving that Hyper Beam is viable in the last slot by your calcs.
 
If my Greninja was on the verge of death, I'd much rather U-Turn away and keep the momentum in my favor than score a kill with Hyper Beam and get immediately revenge killed or set up on the next turn.
 
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I used Greninja on my original XY competitive team. I didn't replace it because it was bad. I just replaced it because I needed a counter to Talonflame (Rotom-W).
But Choice Specs is a great item on Greninja, and should definitely be considered.
 
Are we seriously discussing Hyper Beam as a viable move? Especially in such a fast-paced meta that is Gen 6? Hyper Beam give your opponent a free turn most of the time, that should be reason enough to not use it. The other times you either die because you didn't kill your target which KOs back or you kill yourself with LO. Every other situation gives your opponent a free turn. The best case scenario on that free turn is that they kill Greninja. Worst case scenario, something like Dragonite comes in for free, sets up a DD while you're recharging, and then outspeeds and OHKOs with +1 Dragon Claw. Now you have to deal with a +1/+1 Dragonite. Good luck. Of course, there are more pokemon that can use a free turn to sweep. If it's late-game, RP Lando-I can come in and RP and clean up. Luke can come in and NP / SD and kill you off with priority. Gyarados can come in and DD then kill. Talonflame can get a free SD. There are probably a lot of threats I missed that can set-up on a recharging hyper beam and kill Greninja back.
 
Well, every choice pokemon can give your opponent a free turn as well, as they can bring something in that resists your move and possibly setup on you. Doesn't mean Choice items should never be used. I'm starting to think people are biased towards Hyper Beam, so I'll drop out of the discussion.
 
Liarliarpantsonfire said:
Well, every choice pokemon can give your opponent a free turn as well, as they can bring something in that resists your move and possibly setup on you. Doesn't mean Choice items should never be used. I'm starting to think people are biased towards Hyper Beam, so I'll drop out of the discussion.
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The difference here is that Choice users actually have the option to switch out instead of having to sit there like a Hyper Beam user.
 
On the discussion of hyper beam use, I find it useful if the team fits it more than it fits the pokemon. What I mean is if the team really needs something dead that the hyper beam user otherwise would not normally be able to kill or if the team can cover for that 1 useless turn after hyper beam e.g. with scarf ditto to deal with most set up sweepers. Hyper beam will usually get you a kill if used correctly because no one is going to really expect it. However it can only really be used on pokemon who have an open moveslot because for most of the match it is simply to risky to use it. It's purpose is simply to score a kill on something you otherwise could not. I'm not saying recharge moves are viable in general but I am saying if used correctly they can have a niche use on specific pokemon.
 
Can we seriously stop talking about Hyper Beam, Hydro Cannon, and any of the other recharge moves? There's next to no use for them in any sort of competitive setting, you should never give your opponent free turns and having Hyper Beam for the extremely rare situations that it would be useful and not backfire horribly is not worth working with 3 moves for most of your matches.
 
I really recommend not using hyper beam or hydro cannon on greninja. The problem is yeah you may end up killing something, but since you are locked in on the next turn, you either always get revenge killed or worse you end up becoming set up fodder. Especially in OU where there are pokes like mega lucario, Dragonite, Mega pinsir and Talonflame which if you give those pokes a free turn to set up then they can potentially wipe out or horribly maim the rest of your team. You can very easily end up in a ''Oh crap I am screwed'' situation.
 
Greninja is great on offensive teams that want to keep their hazards up, as it beats the common Defog and Rapid Spin users, with a set of U-turn / Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Hidden Power Fire (Mandibuzz, Excadrill, Lati@s, Togekiss, Scizor, Zapdos). It's also one of the few Pokemon that can naturally outspeed Lati@s, and with U-turn it can fit very nicely on Volt-turn teams. Not to mention that thanks to its wide coverage and STAB to everything, only dedicated special walls wall it, such as Chansey, Blissey, and Sylveon, against which you can just U-turn out and go to a physical powerhouse to start doing some work. Choice Band Genesect works great with it, as do CB Staraptor and CB Talonflame, which can beat most special walls, have U-turn, and are difficult to wall in general. Just make sure to have some good pivots, as Greninja is very easily forced out after it gets a kill, thanks to its frailty and vulnerability to priority.

Also, i a am giving a warning about Hyper Beam and Hydro Cannon. Those moves are not competitively viable, and the next person who talks about them will get his post deleted and will possibly receive a warning. If you want to know why those moves are not viable, either take a look at the last two pages, or send me a VM/PM.
 
Ok let's change the conversation. What do you guys think is a good sweep or just all around general partner for greninja. I used the talon, gourgeist greninja core and it was decent. But now i was thinking of using him with Garchomp to cover lighting and grass weak
 
dfontbubu said:
Ok let's change the conversation. What do you guys think is a good sweep or just all around general partner for greninja. I used the talon, gourgeist greninja core and it was decent. But now i was thinking of using him with Garchomp to cover lighting and grass weak
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Mega Venusaur makes for an excellent partner. He can absorb the Fairy, Fighting, Electric, and Grass type moves aimed at Greninja with ease. And thanks to his Dark typing, Greninja can cover Venusaur's Psychic weakness.
 
dfontbubu said:
Ok let's change the conversation. What do you guys think is a good sweep or just all around general partner for greninja. I used the talon, gourgeist greninja core and it was decent. But now i was thinking of using him with Garchomp to cover lighting and grass weak
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Anything that can tank priority since that's Greninja's biggest weakness. The most important ones are probably Brave Bird and Mach Punch. Zapdos is really the only one (besides Rotom normal forme I guess) who resists those, though Gliscor does well most of the time. Mega Venusaur is a good partner as well, though neither of them can take Talonflame so if you run those two pack a dedicated TF counter like Heatran or Tyranitar or something.

Mega Charizard Y also gives Greninja and most of his potential partners problems. Tar and Tran have to watch for Focus Blast, but Tyranitar can at least negate the weather advantage and Mega Venusaur takes too much damage from him as well (though he can Synthesis most of it off you only get 8 uses so that's risky). Goodra and the pink blobs are really the only full stops (off the top of my head). Greninja can OHKO after stealth rocks though so if you can keep them up Mega Y won't be too much of a hassle. Talonflame doesn't appreciate SR either.

Mega X also isn't weak to anything Greninja can throw at him; but again it's a OHKO after SRs. Greninja really appreciates SR.
 
TeraVolt said:
Mega Charizard Y also gives Greninja and most of his potential partners problems.
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Charizard really doesn't give Greninja "problems". That's like saying: "Oh well, Tyranitar can live a Hydro Pump in Sand and KO back with Stone Edge". Good luck switching a Tyranitar in on Greninja though. Same for Mega Charizard Y. To make it even worse, Charizard has a x4 SR weakness that basically guarantees it to lose to Greninja 1 vs 1 if Rocks are up.

Also, most offensive pokes appreciate Stealth Rocks, so yeah... redundant information ftw.
 
Liarliarpantsonfire said:
Charizard really doesn't give Greninja "problems". That's like saying: "Oh well, Tyranitar can live a Hydro Pump in Sand and KO back with Stone Edge". Good luck switching a Tyranitar in on Greninja though. Same for Mega Charizard Y. To make it even worse, Charizard has a x4 SR weakness that basically guarantees it to lose to Greninja 1 vs 1 if Rocks are up.

Also, most offensive pokes appreciate Stealth Rocks, so yeah... redundant information ftw.
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Im not saying he's gonna come in and try to KO Greninja (though I guess he could if SR is cleared and the opponent had no other options, but regardless) but it halves the damage of his Hydro Pump with sun which can be problematic as it's his strongest attack and can also take on most of his potential partners 1v1. And I said Mega Zards are OHKOd after Rocks.

But yes, I guess that was redundant.
 
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Khan!!! said:
does using a poison move with protean let greninja absorb other teams toxic spikes?
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No, the pokemon needs to be grounded and poison on the switch in. Greninja is still water/dark when he comes in and reverts back to that after he goes out so he can't absorb TS.
 
dfontbubu said:
Ok let's change the conversation. What do you guys think is a good sweep or just all around general partner for greninja. I used the talon, gourgeist greninja core and it was decent. But now i was thinking of using him with Garchomp to cover lighting and grass weak
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I run him with Heliolisk + Dry Skin

It allows me to:

A. Not have to worry about Collateral damage on my team mate
B. Thunder Wave
C. Use a Pivot (Volt Switch is nice when needed)
 
I've been running a core of Tornadus-Therian + Greninja, as they compliment each other nicely on the switch in, plus the U-Turn switching is fun. Regenrator is also a great thing to have in these cores, I almost always run Torndaus-Therian when playing in these VoltSwitch cores.
 
Is mixed Greninja a thing? I've been using

Greninja @ Focus Sash
Protean
Hasty
132 Atk/124 Sp Atk/252 Speed
~Hydro Pump
~Shadow Sneak
~Acrobatics
~Ice Beam

and people don't seem to be prepared for it, so it works pretty well. Always funny to see a Conkeldurr or whatever try to finish me off after an Ice Beam with Mach Punch only for me to out-priority them with Shadow Sneak and then go for the kill with Acrobatics.
 
Yes, mixed Greninja has been suggested countless times, and it's not very noteworthy. You're giving up 2 moveslots just to deal with 2 pokemon - Shadow Sneak is only useful against Breloom/Conk, and Focus Sash Acrobatics is horribly unreliable and only noteworthy for Conk. In exchange you're forfeiting the incredible momentum of U-Turn, losing power on your special attacks, and giving up needed coverage from something like Dark Pulse or HP Fire. The surprise value just is not worth it.

Anyway, a lot of people have been talking about Scarfninja, and I see it rather frequently on the ladder. It has decent surprise value and outspeeds nearly everything of note, and thanks to Protean-boosted coverage moves, it can revenge a variety of targets. It's an interesting set... just don't use Scald on Scarfed Ninja. Someone surprised my Scarf Excadrill with their Scarf Greninja and used Scald... failing to KO and promptly losing the match. Greninja desperately needs the extra power of Hydro Pump.
 
Hyper Beam on any pokemon is kinda useless, I only ever ran it once, and that was for lol's on Showdown with Sylveon just to see how much Pixilate HB would do, with the 1 turn when your kind of just a sitting duck waiting to be Sword Danced/DD on, and you got a big chance of being in a 'OH SHIT' situation
 
Megoodraggon said:
Is mixed Greninja a thing? I've been using

Greninja @ Focus Sash
Protean
Hasty
132 Atk/124 Sp Atk/252 Speed
~Hydro Pump
~Shadow Sneak
~Acrobatics
~Ice Beam

and people don't seem to be prepared for it, so it works pretty well. Always funny to see a Conkeldurr or whatever try to finish me off after an Ice Beam with Mach Punch only for me to out-priority them with Shadow Sneak and then go for the kill with Acrobatics.
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I think it could work if you put U-Turn there instead of Shadow Sneak. It's one of Greninja's best moves and Shadow Sneak is only useful for a couple pokemon.
 
Stevie93 said:
Hyper Beam on any pokemon is kinda useless, I only ever ran it once, and that was for lol's on Showdown with Sylveon just to see how much Pixilate HB would do, with the 1 turn when your kind of just a sitting duck waiting to be Sword Danced/DD on, and you got a big chance of being in a 'OH SHIT' situation
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It is useful on Specs Amaura in LC because it can OHKO 95% of the metagame.

Greninja can't OHKO 95% of the metagame.

Megoodraggon said:
Is mixed Greninja a thing? I've been using

Greninja @ Focus Sash
Protean
Hasty
132 Atk/124 Sp Atk/252 Speed
~Hydro Pump
~Shadow Sneak
~Acrobatics
~Ice Beam

and people don't seem to be prepared for it, so it works pretty well. Always funny to see a Conkeldurr or whatever try to finish me off after an Ice Beam with Mach Punch only for me to out-priority them with Shadow Sneak and then go for the kill with Acrobatics.
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That set is really, really gimmicky. Basically to use Acrobatics you kinda have to be pretty much dead, and your Hydro Pump hits a lot less than it used to. I would remove the Sash, put Life Orb, and U-Turn>Acrobatics at least.
 
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