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Here are the first 3 leaders for Butterfree and Nidoqueen.
Butterfree at level 10 2HKO the pidgey and a range for a 3HKO on the pidgeotto, while taking 3 damage from tackle and 13 from gust while having 35HP on my butterfree. You also outspeed everything. You can win with a berry and getting the range on the pidgeotto. A more consistent strategy is to use harden to reduce damage of gust since the pidgey can barely do anything. Good matchup overall.
Butterfree at level 16 is a 2HKO on the Metapod, 1HKO on the Kakuna and a 6 to 7HKO on the Scyther with confusion who will beat you with fury cutter. Scyther also outspeeds you. You can win if you sleep powder it to break the streak of fury cutter because it intially does piss for damage. Good Matchup overall.
Butterfree at level 17 1HKO the Gastly, 2HKO on the Zubat and 5HKO on the Bayleaf with confusion. A bite from the Zubat does 4 damage and a crit razor leaf also does 4 damage. You also outspeed everything. Flawless matchup except for minor chance of confusion from the Zubat.
Butterfree at level 20 is a 5HKO on the Clefairy and 7HKO on the Miltank with confusion. You get 2HKO from rollout if you do not use hardens on the clefairy. This is unfortunately an RNG fest because of metronome. You also get outsped by the Miltank. Ok matchup at best because of sleep powder. Mine also was male and had big problems with attract.
Nidoqueen at level 20 2HKO the clefairy and 3HKO the Miltank with double kick. You are outsped by the miltank but if it uses rollout it starts at 2 damage and you outdps the increase. Good matchup overall.
Butterfree is decent with the combination of sleep powder, confusion and decent speed. He can muscle past things he honestly shouldn't because sleep is op. The lack of stab sucks though. I do foresee some gym leaders to come being very problematic for Butterfree.
Nidoqueen has a very long backtrack back to your home town to dump all your money to get a moon stone early. Some may not see this as worth it at all. I did not mind since she trivializes the Whitney fight but I understand the other point of view. Not much time to grow an opinion on her but no stab kinda sucks. Good coverage though.
Someone recommended Nightmare on Butterfree. My issue with that is this is Butterfree with no CPoundeyes, meaning 75 accurate Sleep Powder. Nightmare was also the only way it would eventually stay relevant in later stages before completely falling off.
Make sure you get Tauros in a Friend Ball for an instant nuclear option in Return. (A bit hard to do seeing a Tauros is hard to find, has a low catch rate, and Friend Ball isn't exactly efficient in terms as you get only one per day, requires Surf and Cut to obtain, and a wait time of a day to recieve. However, Tauros does nothing to Morty anyways as Pursuit is level 26 and uses his base 40 SpA. No Mud-Slap either.)
Someone recommended Nightmare on Butterfree. My issue with that is this is Butterfree with no CPoundeyes, meaning 75 accurate Sleep Powder. Nightmare was also the only way it would eventually stay relevant in later stages before completely falling off.
Make sure you get Tauros in a Friend Ball for an instant nuclear option in Return. (A bit hard to do seeing a Tauros is hard to find, has a low catch rate, and Friend Ball isn't exactly efficient in terms as you get only one per day, requires Surf and Cut to obtain, and a wait time of a day to recieve. However, Tauros does nothing to Morty anyways as Pursuit is level 26 and uses his base 40 SpA. No Mud-Slap either.)
Yeah that sounds about right. I already taught Butterfree that. That is kinda the problem of basically relying on psychic moves without stab for all your damage.
Unfortunately for Tauros I already caught him with a great ball cause he was a bitch to find. Found three Miltanks in a row before he showed up. Didn’t even think about the friend ball. Strength however seems to do the job fine for now. I also taught him surf which did at least ok damage against gastly and haunter. Since they have nothing to hit him with he can kill them so another teammate can 1v1 Gengar. Not the most efficient but he can get the job done.
Sweet Scent sounds neat in theory but the fact you have to re-use it every time you want to Sleep something makes it overspecialized and pretty useless because you have to setup Scent, Sleep something, and then finally attack. I know it's Butterfree pre-Gen 3, but that's still horribly inefficient.
Turdterra noted to me earlier that Nightmare is a one-time thing per enemy too (you're going to have to attack at some point). Per Bulbapedia:
So yeah. Keep that in mind if you do Nightmare. It's not very well-known (I didn't know about it being one-time until Turdterra looked it up).
Sweet Scent sounds neat in theory but the fact you have to re-use it every time you want to Sleep something makes it overspecialized.
Turdterra noted to me earlier that Nightmare is a one-time thing per enemy too, making Sweet Scent relatively useless (you're going to have to attack at some point). Per Bulbapedia: View attachment 385392
So yeah. Keep that in mind if you do Nightmare. It's not very well-known (I didn't know about it being one-time until Turdterra looked it up).
Honestly I think this is worded poorly on Bulbapedia. I think what it really means is that: If the Pokemon is waking up that turn (which would end Nightmare) and you put it back to sleep that turn, Nightmare damage does not happen as it has worn off. You have to reapply it. But I dunno. GSC has some weird bugs.
so I fucked up and lost my data for the morty fight and I already saved after so either I redo the run or calculate out the likely damage ranges for the pokemon involved. I am wondering which would be preferred.
so I fucked up and lost my data for the morty fight and I already saved after so either I redo the run or calculate out the likely damage ranges for the pokemon involved. I am wondering which would be preferred.
Butterfree at level 25 1HKO the Gastly, 2HKO the Haunter, and 3HKO the Gengar with confusion. You also outspeed everything except the Gengar. The Gengar tends to try to Hypnosis into Dream Eater so can be stopped by sleep powdering it back. Couldn't get it to use Shadow Ball. Good matchup overall.
Nidoqueen at level 25 2HKO the Gastly and the Haunter while 4HKO on the Gengar with Surf. You outspeed everything besides the Gengar. Decent matchup by cleaning up everything except the Gengar.
Tauros at level 25 2HKO the Gastly, 3HKO on Haunter and 5HKO on Gengar with Surf. The Gastly and Haunter can't really hurt you except by cutting half of their hp so are mostly free for Tauros. The Gengar can potentially 1v1 if Hypnosis doesn't hit since it needs sleep to hurt Tauros. You also outspeed everything. Suprisngly decent to good matchup.
The ranges were based off memory so may be off. I am certain about the speed though.
Butterfree at level 30 2HKO the Primeape and 4HKO the Poliwrath with either confusion or gust. Did not see much difference. Surf is a 3HKO on Butterfree. You outspeed everything. Pretty good matchup if sleep powder is used.
Nidoqueen at level 30 2HKO the Primeape with body slam and 3HKO the Poliwrath with thunder punch. Surf does about a 2HKO on Nidoqueen. You also outspeed everything. Decent matchup overall.
Tauros at level 30 2HKO on the Primeape and 3HKO on the Poliwrath with Strength. You get 1HKO by Dynamic Punch. You do outspeed everything. Return at max power if you have it 1HKO the Primeape and 2HKO the Poliwrath. Decent matchup overall.
Lapras at level 30 2HKO the Primeape with surf regardless of rain and 2HKO the Poliwrath with Thunder. You are 3HKO by Karate Chop and over half by dynamic punch. You also speed tie Primeape and outspeed the Poliwrath. Instead of teaching thunder you can perish song the Poliwrath and easily win by swapping to something that resists fighting since it lives 1 non crit Dynamic Punch. Good matchup overall.
Butterfree at level 31 is a 4HKO on the seel and 6HKO on the Dewgong with gust. Aurora beam from dewgong 2HKO. Need sleep powder and nightmare to win this battle. Ok if sleep works, terrible matchup otherwise.
Nidoqueen at level 31 2HKO the seel and 3HKO the Dewgong with thunder punch while 2HKO the Piloswine. Icy wind does around 13 damage while aurora beam is a 3HKO. If icy wind does not lower her speed, you outspeed everything, outsped by Dewgong if it does. Decent matchup overall.
Tauros at level 31 1HKO the seel, 2HKO the Dewgong and range for 2HKO on the Piloswine with Strength. Aurora beam is a 5HKO and Blizzard does slightly less than half. You outspeed everything. Full power Return trivializes this fight. Flawless matchup.
Lapras at level 31 1HKO the Seel and Dewgong with Thunder, and Piloswine with rain boosted surf. Tested without Thunder and Body Slam 2HKO the Seel, 3HKO the Dewgong, and is a 2HKO with surf on the piloswine without rain. Their Ice attacks also barely do anything. Flawless matchup.
Butterfree at level 31 is a 6HKO on the magnemite with confusion. Thunderbolt left with 1 HP. If you can sleep powder and nightmare you can in theory sweep. You will not though without extreme luck. Terrible matchup overall.
Nidoqueen at level 31 2HKO the magnemite and Steelix with surf. You take half from Iron tail. You also outspeed everything. Near flawless matchup.
Tauros at level 31 seems to barely misses a 2HKO the magnemite with Strength. Current Return does less damage. Max would guarentee the 2HKO. Iron tail is a 3HKO. You outspeed everything. Surf under sunlight makes it a 6HKO on the Steelix. Decent Matchup overall.
Lapras at level 31 1HKO the magnemite and Steelix with rain boosted surf. You also outspeed everything. With a paralysis berry this is a flawless matchup.
Butterfree has really fallen off for the last 2 gym leaders. Needing long sleep plus nightmare for damage is extremely luck based. Decent for chuck and Morty though.
Nidoqueen does adequate damage and has aceptable performance through this section of the game. Not having stab really hurts its damage output though.
Tauros is a beatstick that outspeeds everything and can take a hit. Doesn't hit the hardest though since return is not at full power.
Lapras is very good and perish song is an extremely powerful tool to kill dangerous pokemon that can cause the team problems. Thunder seems to not be that useful right now so I have held off on teaching it permanently to have the option for perish song. Next time will be before the elite 4.
Note Morty is really a stupid matchup for the most part. If you don’t OHKO or incapacitate him immediately Curse and Hypnosis are just pains in the butt you can’t really work around effectively unless your mon is something like Abra or Girafarig that can deal with him fairly quickly.
It’s for this reason I don’t judge Morty too much in importance in Johto: the fight is BS RNG and a slugfest, so don’t feel bad about the lost data / damage range thing. There’s simply not a whole lot most mons can do there effectively anyway.
Note Morty is really a stupid matchup for the most part. If you don’t OHKO or incapacitate him immediately Curse and Hypnosis are just pains in the butt you can’t really work around effectively unless your mon is something like Abra or Girafarig that can deal with him fairly quickly.
It’s for this reason I don’t judge Morty too much in importance in Johto: the fight is BS RNG and a slugfest, so don’t feel bad about the lost data / damage range thing. There’s simply not a whole lot most mons can do there effectively anyway.
Yeah, from what little I remember most were 2 or higher KOs for each pokemon without a ground or psychic move. Tauros if you are willing to use items is surprisingly decent though since he outspeeds the gengar and it can only hurt him if he is asleep. It is extremely inefficient, but he can win that matchup, better than other normals who can be too slow to avoid being haxxed.
Butterfree at level 37 4 to 5HKO on the dragonair with psybeam while 6HKO at best on the Kingdra. You are 2HKO by thunderbolt and take 2 thirds from hyper beam. You outspeed the dragonair but not the kingdra. Sleep powder plus nightmare required to deal with dragonair. Ok to terrible matchup overall.
Nidoqueen at level 37 2HKO the Dragonair with Ice punch with nevermelt ice and 3HKO by surf or ice beam from dragonair. You outspeed the dragonair while the Kingdra outspeeds. Decent matchup overall.
Tauros at level 37 2HKO the dragonair and 3HKO on the Kingdra with return or strength. Kingdra's surf does 2 thirds and you outspeed everything. Decent matchup overall.
Lapras at level 37 1HKO the dragonair and 3HKO the Kingdra with ice beam. You outspeed the dragonair but not the kingdra. Dragon breath does about a fifth while hyper beam is about a third. You can also perish song it for a guarenteed KO. Flawless matchup.
Butterfree is nearly dead weight in major fights at this point except for sleep powder cause you do so little damage and take so much back. For perspective it 2HKO with psybeam against a machoke that was level 28 at level 35. So route clearing is also tough.
Nidoqueen can put in work but her lack of raw power kinda hurts. She would be better if she had stronger moves but this is not gen 1 so we make due with what we have. Solid workhorse but not a sweeper.
Tauros is a beatstick that hits pretty hard and outspeeds a ton of things. He can't take hits all that well so he rarely sweeps. Might be able to if Return is at full power.
Lapras is an amazing pokemon only held back by being relatively slow and its experience group. It honestly doesn't even need tms besides rain dance which is not that far of a detour from where you get it. Perish song is also proven to be a powerful tool that kills things your team has no answer for.
Next time I post will be the elite 4 and final thoughts.
Time for the elite 4. Tauros, Butterfree, and Lapras is level 39. Nidoqueen is level 40. Did buy carbos for lapras and nidoqueen. Also retaught earthquake to both Nidoqueen and Tauros before each fight to see how useful it would be.
Butterfree is outsped by the Xatu and the Jynx. Gust does around 1/6 on the Xatu while 1/8 on the slowbro. You take over half from psychic from the Xatu who has the weakest one. Terrible matchup without Sleep powder and nightmare.
Nidoqueen 2HKO the Xatu with the elemental punches. You take 2 thirds from Xatu psychic. You outspeed the Xatu but are outsped by Jynx. Pretty bad matchup.
Tauros 2HKO the Xatu with return, 1HKO the Jynx with Iron tail, 3HKO on the Executor with return without reflect at least 5 with. Psychic does 2 thirds from Executor. Decent matchup overall.
Lapras 1HKO the Xatu and Executor with Ice beam, 3HKO against the Jynx with non rain surf. The Slowbro will switch out to avoid perish song, but it really can't do much to you when it is the last one. Excellent matchup overall.
Butterfree 2HKO the Ariados and 4HKO on the Crobat who nearly 1HKOs with wing attack plus it is faster. You also are 4HKO on the muk with psybeam and get 2HKO by sludge. Also Koga will use items to cure sleep for crobat so have fun with that especially since he loves evasion and sleep powder has shaky accuracy. Ok at best matchup.
Nidoqueen 2HKO the Ariados plus the Venomoth with Earthquake, 1HKO the forretress with fire punch, 3HKO on the Crobat with thunderpunch. You outspeed everything except the crobat. You take over half from Psychic and a fifth from wing attack. Good matchup overall.
Tauros 2HKO the Ariados and Venomoth while 3HKO the crobat with return, forretress takes about a sixth from earthquake.
Lapras with rain 1HKO the ariados, 2HKO the venomoth, forretress, range for 2HKO on muk with surf, crobat is 2HKO by ice beam. You take a sixth from psychic and about a third from sludge while wing attack is about a sixth. Excellent matchup overall.
Butterfree 3HKO the hitmontop and Hitmonchan, 2HKO the onyx and 4HKO the machamp with psybeam. Hitmontop will use attack which does around a sixth. Machamp will 1shot you with rockslide. Sleep is mandatory to sweep. You do outspeed everything. Ok matchup with sleep powder.
Nidoqueen 2HKO the hitmontop, hitmonchan and hitmonlee, 3HKO the Machamp with earthquake while 1HKO the onyx with surf. Ice punch and double kick do about a sixth While a crit cross chop does a little over half. You outspeed everything. Excellent matchup.
Tauros 3HKO the hitmontop and 2HKO the Hitmonlee with Return. Dig does about a third while High Jump Kick does at least 2/3 if not a 1HKO. You outspeed everything but hitmonchan spams mach punch. Ok matchup.
Lapras 2HKO the Hitmontop, hitmonlee with surf. Dig does about 19 damage out of 171 hp while High Jump kick does over half. You outspeed everything but Hitmonchan will spam mach punch. Decent matchup overall.
Butterfree knocks out the umbreon with 3 gusts after 3 nightmares. Get outsped and 1 shotted by flamethrower from houndoom. 3HKO on the gengar with Psybeam. It will use destiny bond on that final hit to take you with it. 3HKO on the vileplume with psybeam with petal dance doing 12 damage. Ok matchup with sleep powder.
Nidoqueen 4HKO the umbreon, 1HKO the houndoom with earthquake while 3HKO on the vileplume with ice punch. Faint attack by umbreon is about a 7HKO while flamethrower does over half. Faint attack from Murkrow does a fourth while outspeeding and you 2HKO with thunder punch. Petal dance is a 4HKO. Good matchup overall.
Tauros 4HKO the umbreon, 3HKO the vileplume with return. Faint attack by umbreon is a 5HKO while petal dance is a 2HKO. Gengar outspeeds and does nothing except curse and destiny bond. You 1HKO with earthquake. Decent matchup overall.
Lapras with rain surf 3HKO the umbreon, ice beam 2HKO the vileplume. Without rain surf 3HKO the gengar. Take slightly less than half from petal dance. Perish song does silly things to umbreon since it will switch out on with 1 turn remaining to something that is strong against what is in meaning you can bring in favourable matchups by switching. Also sometimes won't switch out for some reason. Very useful for testing matchups that are hard to force. You are outsped by the gengar who is a joke, Murkrow who 6HKO with faint attack while 1 shotted by ice beam and houndoom who is 2HKO by non rain surf and 3HKO back with flamethrower. Decent to good matchup overall.
Butterfree has speed tie with Gyarados and needs sleep plus nightmare since Psybeam is a 8HKO. Can survive 1 Hyper beam from Gyarados with 5 hp from a hundred health. Outsped and 1shot by everything else. Terrible matchup.
Nidoqueen outspeeds the Gyarados and 2HKO with thunder punch. She also outspeeds the dragonite and 2HKO with Ice punch. Can suprisingly survive a blizzard. Tanks a hyper beam from Aerodactyl with around a third hp left. Charizard outspeeds and 3HKO with flamethrower. Good matchup overall.
Tauros outspeeds the Dragonite and 4HKO with return. Take over half from blizzard. 2shot by charizard while 3HKO with return. Ok matchup overall.
Lapras outspeeds the Gyarados and level 47 Dragonite and 1HKO with thunder and ice beam respectively. Takes about a third from gyarados hyper beam and over half from Aerodactyl's rockslide. 1HKO the Aerodactyl Outsped by charizard and 3HKO by flamethrower while you 2HKO with surf outside rain. good matchup where it can sweep the team with a little item support but is too slow to do it without.
Butterfree is near useless in Karen and Lance who are the last trainers. It is kinda ok for will through bruno but it is too much effort to be worth it. D tier for the most part with the only basis for C tier being sleep powder being OP. It is kinda useful early on but should be dropped at latest Goldenrod for a different pokemon.
Nidoqueen has terrible matchup against Will but is decent for the rest. It won't sweep without heavy item support but beats several annoying pokemon 1v1. C tier seems fair.
Tauros is ok against most of the elite four except Bruno. It's speed and decent power means it can do decently as a 1v1 pokemon. C tier as well.
Lapras felt like the best though I did give it carbos so it might not have outsped as well as it did. It does almost trivialize several difficult battles so min B tier on my opinion. Going to take a break for a bit to do a casual playthrough. Also fuck Koga and Karen for their rng.
I could do those. Might throw Hypno in for testing as my fourth. Means I will speed run to Goldenrod since none of what I am testing shows up before then unless someone suggests a pokemon before then that really needs testing.
Machop at level 20 is a range to 1HKO the clefairy with karate chop and outspeed. A metronome high jump kick did 12 damage. Miltank outspeeds and does 4 damage with first rollout. You 3HKO with karate chop without crits. Can survive 3 rollouts with around 24 HP from 67 total along with the HJK damage earlier. Pretty good matchup overall if whitney is dumb enough to use rollout. Also could not get her to use stomp.
Drowzee at level 20 4HKO on the clefairy with the elemental punches or confusion and takes 5 damage per hit of double slap. You outspeed so put it to sleep with hypnosis. The Miltank outspeeds and does 9 damage with first rollout while 6 to 7 KO with confusion. Pretty bad matchup unless you get lucky with hypnosis.
Machop at level 25 is outsped by everything, 1HKO the Gastly and Haunter while 2HKO on the Gengar. You take over half from dream eater and most likely have eaten curse damage before. Ok matchup at best cause it is relying alot on luck.
Hypno at level 26 outspeeds and 1HKO the gastly and Haunter with confusion. 2HKO on the gengar who outspeeds and does over half with Shadow Ball. Decent matchup overall cause it is not beating gengar without hypnosis.
Vaporeon at level 25 outspeeds and 1HKO the Gastly and Haunter with surf. Gengar outspeeds but is 2HKO by surf. The Gengar will spam hypnosis to put Vaporeon to sleep. You are 4HKO by Dream eater. Near flawless matchup. Random trivia, to test how much damage dream eater did I deliberately tried to get vaporeon to sleep and he missed with Hypnosis 8 times in a row. He also has a chance to start with mean look over hypnosis which is a guaranteed victory with a mint berry equipped.
Machoke at level 31 2HKO the dewgong and seel with karate chop and range for 2HKO on the piloswine. Outspeed the seel and piloswine without icy wind speed drop. You take a fifth from aurora beam and a third from blizzard. Decent matchup.
Hypno at level 30 2HKO the seel while 3HKO on the dewgong with thunder punch, and range for 2HKO on the Piloswine with fire punch. You outspeed everything and take around a sixth from dewgong aurora beam and a third from blizzard. Pretty good matchup.
Vaporeon at level 30 outspeeds everything and has 3HKO with headbutt on seel, 5HKO on the dewgong with headbutt and 1HKO the piloswine with surf. Headbutt from dewgong does around 19 damage out of 127 HP. Good matchup overall since they really can’t hurt you much.
Machoke starts strong against whitney then dips to ok against Morty and goes back to almost good against Pryce. Kinda lacking in a good stab move for good damage. I suspect having a Machamp would make Pryce significantly easier.
Hypno has a rocky start with it struggling in route clearing before becoming hypno where it is decent against Morty but not great due to it’s speed. Good for pryce due to its absurd special defense. The lack of power is noticeable though.
Vaporeon starts strong against Morty and is decent against Pryce even though 2 of his pokemon are water type with little ways to hurt them since they barely damage you back. Going to give Seadra rain dance so Vaporeon will have to make due without. It does have perfect special dv and good speed dv since I soft reset for them and you can tell at level 20 when you get it what they are. Much easier to do since it is a gift pokemon.
Seadra does not have a good start since you have to beat Pryce first which means it misses out on the rocket stuff and morty for easy leveling with the trainers available mostly being water route trainers. Being underleveled does not help its case. You should also grab an already evolved one to skip any possible early game issues with horsea. Hopefully it has a good showing in the next gyms.
Machoke at level 32 3HKO the primape and 4HKO the Poliwrath with karate chop if it doesn’t crit. Dynamic punch is a 3HKO and you are outsped by everything. Pretty bad matchup.
Hypno at level 32 outspeeds everything while 2HKO the primeape and range for 2HKO the poliwrath with confusion. You are 5HKO by surf. Pretty good matchup.
Vaporeon at level 32 outspeeds and 1HKO the primeape with surf. The Poliwrath takes a sixth from headbutt and is 4HKO by surf with it being close to a 3HKO. You take a third from dynamic punch. Pretty good matchup even without rain dance since dynamic punch has shaky accuracy.
Seadra at level 30 outspeeds and 1HKO on the Primeape with rain powered surf. Range for 3HKO on the Poliwrath with rain surf while taking over a third from dynamic punch. 1 leer boosted dynamic punch did over half. Honestly decent matchup since you outspeed and dynamic punch while powerful has garbage accuracy.
Machoke at level 34 outspeeds and 1HKO the magnemite with karate chop. The steelix is 4HKO with karate chop while you outspeed. Vital throw is a 3HKO but has negative priority. You take slightly less than half from iron tail. Decent matchup since without crits you are not beating steelix without items.
Hypno at level 34 outspeeds everything while 1HKO the magnemite and 2HKO the steelix with fire punch. You take slightly less than half from iron tail. Flawless matchup.
Vaporeon at level 34 outspeeds and 1HKO everything with surf. Flawless matchup.
Seadra at level 34 outspeeds and 1HKO the magnemite and the steelix with surf. Don’t set up rain dance, because you first don’t need it and secondly the magnemite 1HKO you with thunderbolt. Flawless matchup.
Machoke at level 39 is outsped by everything and is 5HKO by dragon breath while 2HKO on the dragonair with vital throw. You are still outsped when using karate chop so vital throw lowered priority does not matter. Is 2HKO by surf. 3HKO with vital throw. Take a third from hyper beam. Pretty bad matchup.
Hypno at level 39 2HKO the dragonair and 6HKO the Kingdra with ice punch. You outspeed the dragonair until you get thunder waved. Take around 20 damage from slam and 40 from kingdra’s surf. Hyper beam does around a third. Decent matchup where you can handle the dragonair with hypnosis luck but you probably are not beating the kingdra since it loves to start the fight with smokescreen.
Vaporeon at level 39 outspeeds and 2HKO the dragonair with aurora beam with or without nevermelt ice. Might be a very unfavorable range to 1HKO with nevermelt ice. Thunderbolt does around a fifth. Aurora beam with nevermelt ice is a 4HKO vs Kingdra with dragon breath doing about a sixth and hyper beam doing around a fourth. In a speed tie with the kingdra. Can either sweep the dragonair or 1v1 the Kingdra without item support. Good matchup overall.
Seadra at level 39 outspeeds and 2HKO the dragonair with icy wind plus nevermelt ice. You take a third from dragon breath from dragonair and are 1HKO by thunderbolt. Take half from kingdra dragon breath and do a sixth with icy wind plus never melt ice. Pretty bad matchup. Can soften the Kingdra for something else since you outspeed.
Machoke is kinda decent but vital throw is not great stab since you have to eat damage to use it. At least it can’t miss.
Hypno is decently bulky but it misses out on KOs with its lack of power. The elite four is gonna be rough with only confusion and the elemental punches for attacks.
Vaporeon is very good at handling major battles even against things you might think it would struggle at. I think if I bought blizzard clair while relying on accuracy would be a clean sweep. Good all around.
Seadra is decent for chuck and excellent for Jasmine but abysmal for Clair due to its shitty special bulk. Blizzard might also be required here since icy wind just does not cut it. That lack of special bulk might make some elite four trainers really brutal depending on if it 1HKOs or not.
I will note that my higher levels than my previous tests were partially me beating every trainer I could including ones I did not know existed before my casual playthrough revealed them to me. And also the machop being traded plus no slow exp group means everyone is higher level.
Also based off observations from this and previous tests, surf makes alot of water types better than comparable pokemon of other types since it is so strong and available so early.
Next post will be the elite four and my final thoughts.
I would have asked DHR to close it down if I had no intention of continuing. Seeing as there is no post about such a thing, then yes, it is still ongoing.
I would have asked DHR to close it down if I had no intention of continuing. Seeing as there is no post about such a thing, then yes, it is still ongoing.
IIRC, the last thread was technically open even after the OP seemed to bow out, and seeing as there have been no new posts for quite a bit of time...I found it quite understandable that the thread was not ongoing.
IIRC, the last thread was technically open even after the OP seemed to bow out, and seeing as there have been no new posts for quite a bit of time...I found it quite understandable that the thread was not ongoing.
Inactivity here could be attributed due to BDSP/Legends hype and people spending time playing those games (rather than any other old game), since pretty much every other list is inactive currently (and BDSP/Legends hype is the main reason I haven't poked my own lists; I doubt anyone has any plans on replaying old games with the newest games being the current fad).
I am sure once the hype for the new games dies, most lists will slowly pick up again and we can work on getting those to write-ups and then publish them
I understood, I was just explaining why I thought what I did.
Also, calm down. You seem to have some sort of issue with me. From the very beginning of this thread (and tbh, further beyond), you have been going after me.
I understood, I was just explaining why I thought what I did.
Also, calm down. You seem to have some sort of issue with me. From the very beginning of this thread (and tbh, further beyond), you have been going after me.
I'm perfectly calm, but I have no vendetta against you. Just because I don't agree with your nominations doesn't mean anything other than I don't agree. You do tend to push a nomination super hard when a majority has an opposition. Especially the way you put things into words. That can and will cause friction between other users. That's my only gripe and it's a minor one as people are entitled to their opinions and nominations.
