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GSC In-Game Tier List Mark V

Thunderfang777 said:
Meanwhile, Alakazam is considered amazing in-game because unlike most other early game nukes, it never fully falls off, and continues to sweep through huge swaths of the game, even after everything else catches up to it in evolution.
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It's not only "it doesn't fall off".

Unlike other mons that also rely on the punches to succeed, Alakazam gets one of the most valuable offensive types in Johto, Psychic, and it gets moves to work with in a timely manner, unlike say, Espeon.

It gets Confusion as soon as it evolves on Lv. 16, which is by itself as strong as the punches due to STAB, but it gets an upgrade to Psybeam on Lv. 21, which already relegates the punches to coverage instead of a must. Not to mention the STAB is very much appreciated against Morty and Chuck, the two next leaders after Miltank (following the level caps). It also gets STAB Psychic on Lv. 38, ensuring it remains at the top of the food chain with one of the strongest neutral attacks in the game.

Abra starts off strong, it keeps getting better throughout the game, and has several favorable matchups due to its combination of raw power and coverage options.

There really aren't any mons close to it in GSC.

Oh, and btw, since it's a trade evo, you get to skip Kadabra and go straight to Alakazam at Lv. 16, before Whitney.
 
Thunderfang777 said:
That is a significant number of Pokemon, namely Starmie and Vaporeon. That's why they're rated higher in Crystal. Though I will admit that with other stone evolutions:

Fire Stone: Growlithe gets Flame Wheel on level 34, and Flamethrower on level 50. Also, money's too scarce to get Fire Blast from the Game Corner. So I guess Growlithe can't really benefit from stone evolutions much in GS.

Thunder Stone: Pikachu is literally the only Pokemon in gen 2 that evolves via Thunder Stone. You can't even get one until the post-game in GS. In Crystal, you can only get one via that egg that comes with Dizzy Punch.

Leaf Stone: Sadly, Bellsprout and Oddish suck in gen 2. Bellsprout got hit hard with the nerf stick, losing auto-crit Razor Leaf. Both Weepinbell and Gloom don't get their stronger grass move until past level 40, so they won't even evolve until very late. Exeggutor by contrast is very TM-dependent, and its TMs are available much later than in gen 1.

So all in all, the other stone evolved Pokemon were already kind of bad in GSC, and won't be able to reach their final forms until around the Elite Four. That timing likely means that their tier rankings won't be affected much with a better available evolution stone.
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Yeah I know about Flame Wheel but 65 base power isn't exactly inspiring. Flamethrower is out of the question for Growlithe imo

Pikachu lol

Hard agree on the Grass types. You just...can't make them work in Gen 2 (and I'm the kind of person who has found usefulness for Audino in BW1 and Lopunny in BW2)
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
Ngl, a two-tier drop off those availability issues would have major ripple impacts on other lists otherwise. :totodiLUL:
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This exists in the other games and I dock those mons accordingly. "Major ripple impacts" aren't a thing - I judge each mon individually.

Classic examples of something similar to Scyther are Heracross and Pinsir as B2 and W2 version exclusives respectively. You want Guts for the former for Toxic Orb strats and Mold Breaker on Pinsir to screw over Colress Sturdy mons. For both mons this is a 5% encounter with a 50% Ability roll on top of hoping your nature isn't total garbage. Very similar to Technician Scyther availability in HGSS. Just like Scyther, both Heracross and Pinsir also have a catch rate of 45 which is lower than average.

A good example of iffy availability not dropping a mon is Sigilyph in both Unova games. Sigilyph is very unimpressive major battle wise and its availability (low encounter rate, Magic Guard needed, hard to catch) keeps it firmly in C.

Other examples of rate + favorable Ability exist even in HGSS itself. Snubbull with Intimidate, Marill with Huge Power. Both have laughably bad encounter rates and want these good Abilities and are in the dumpster because of it.
 
DrumstickGaming said:
This exists in the other games and I dock those mons accordingly. "Major ripple impacts" aren't a thing - I judge each mon individually.

Classic examples of something similar to Scyther are Heracross and Pinsir as B2 and W2 version exclusives respectively. You want Guts for the former for Toxic Orb strats and Mold Breaker on Pinsir to screw over Colress Sturdy mons. For both mons this is a 5% encounter with a 50% Ability roll on top of hoping your nature isn't total garbage. Very similar to Technician Scyther availability in HGSS. Just like Scyther, both Heracross and Pinsir also have a catch rate of 45 which is lower than average.

A good example of iffy availability not dropping a mon is Sigilyph in both Unova games. Sigilyph is very unimpressive major battle wise and its availability (low encounter rate, Magic Guard needed, hard to catch) keeps it firmly in C.

Other examples of rate + favorable Ability exist even in HGSS itself. Snubbull with Intimidate, Marill with Huge Power. Both have laughably bad encounter rates and want these good Abilities and are in the dumpster because of it.
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May I ask why Teddiursa (Crystal) is in A then? :mehowth:

Fleeing encounter with a 50% chance to flee, 5% encounter rate in Dark Cave (Morning). That's about as obnoxious as it gets.
 
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
May I ask why Teddiursa (Crystal) is in A then? :mehowth:

Fleeing encounter with a 50% chance to flee, 5% encounter rate in Dark Cave (Morning). That's about as obnoxious as it gets.
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Because Zebes as well as me thought it was A. Ryota thought it was B though. My Ursaring swept Clair. That offsets availability easily given Clair's difficulty.

Scyther is incidentally in that same post where I call it a C tier due to availability + lopsided performance

If you believe Teddiursa is not A tier then by all means, own up to it and run it for yourself.
 
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
May I ask why Teddiursa (Crystal) is in A then? :mehowth:
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in Crystal, you can circumvent this by getting an Ursaring directly post-Surf and those come as high as level 30, which is neat. The only caveat is that you want to catch it in a Friend Ball to enable a few sweeps later on (most notably Clair), which means you have to restart if your single Friend Ball fails to catch it (+ the short backtrack, but I'd argue that's much better than the circumstances surrounding early Teddiursa). I think this one is *arguably* more convenient, seeing as early Teddiursa is nothing particularly special
 
Thunderfang777 said:
My mistake. Eevee also evolves via Thunder Stone. Though Jolteon doesn't get any decent moves until level 52, and the only decent electric type TM is locked to the game corner.
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I mostly meant Pikachu being postgame makes it a non-factor, hence the lol (we decided long ago we aren't doing Kanto)

Jolteon is...not good either

Really, this is the problem with the Johto games. So many Pokemon are just screwed over by questionable design choices. Playing these games gets really dire because everyone outlevels you yet has underwhelming moves (with a few exceptions like Clair and Lance). HGSS somehow made the region worse in terms of playability (Safari Zone is a joke, no swarms until postgame, Stones still require you going out of your way) - it's a very subpar remake that only really excels in presentation
 
Btw, hypothetically, what tier would Charmander be if it was a starter in GSC? I'm guessing A tier. Unlike Cyndadquil, Charmander would have access to E-punches the moment you arrive at GoldenRod City. Also, Charmeleon learns Flamethrower on level 34, while Typhlosion doesn't get Flamethrower until level 60.
 
Thunderfang777 said:
Btw, hypothetically, what tier would Charmander be if it was a starter in GSC? I'm guessing A tier. Unlike Cyndadquil, Charmander would have access to E-punches the moment you arrive at GoldenRod City. Also, Charmeleon learns Flamethrower on level 34, while Typhlosion doesn't get Flamethrower until level 60.
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I actually tested that. It blows Cyndaquil out of the water so hard it's not even funny :totodiLUL:

This thread is better suited for this discussion, but to summarize...
Altissimo

Thread 'Expanded Tier List - What If?'

Permission received from DHR to post this, it might be moved to OI general later tho

So I saw this topic earlier which got locked after pointing the original poster to the IGTL section of the forum, which makes sense as the IGTL is the single-player arm of Smogon. However it got me lamenting a little bit about this board, and the reason why is because, once a tier list is done and written up and put on-site, there's no real room for reopening the topic or re-evaluating the Pokémon after the fact. I'm a little sad that discussions are basically tied to the temporal aspect...
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GSC Charmander could be described as Cyndaquil but functional. Since it gets Fire Punch (but not Thunderpunch), it's actually reliable as a Fire-type, unlike Cyndaquil, who is immediately outclassed as one by most things that do get Fire Punch.

By the time Typhlosion could be able to make a case for itself with Thunderpunch and Fire Punch, Charizard has Flamethrower. It's thoroughly outclassed the whole game. :mehowth:
 
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
I actually tested that. It blows Cyndaquil out of the water so hard it's not even funny :totodiLUL:

This thread is better suited for this discussion, but to summarize...
Altissimo

Thread 'Expanded Tier List - What If?'

Permission received from DHR to post this, it might be moved to OI general later tho

So I saw this topic earlier which got locked after pointing the original poster to the IGTL section of the forum, which makes sense as the IGTL is the single-player arm of Smogon. However it got me lamenting a little bit about this board, and the reason why is because, once a tier list is done and written up and put on-site, there's no real room for reopening the topic or re-evaluating the Pokémon after the fact. I'm a little sad that discussions are basically tied to the temporal aspect...
  • Like
  • Love
  • Wow

GSC Charmander could be described as Cyndaquil but functional. Since it gets Fire Punch (but not Thunderpunch), it's actually reliable as a Fire-type, unlike Cyndaquil, who is immediately outclassed as one by most things that do get Fire Punch.

By the time Typhlosion could be able to make a case for itself with Thunderpunch and Fire Punch, Charizard has Flamethrower. It's thoroughly outclassed the whole game. :mehowth:
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Well shit. I assumed that Charizard got Thunderpunch. I guess it gets it in gen 4.

I thought it was odd that Charizard didn't get Thunderpunch until then, seeing as not only Typhlosion, but also Blaziken in gen 3 got Thunderpunch.
 
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Thunderfang777 said:
Btw, hypothetically, what tier would Charmander be if it was a starter in GSC? I'm guessing A tier. Unlike Cyndadquil, Charmander would have access to E-punches the moment you arrive at GoldenRod City. Also, Charmeleon learns Flamethrower on level 34, while Typhlosion doesn't get Flamethrower until level 60.
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Early Fire Punch and Flamethrower are huge for Charmander, but I've seen some people do GSC playthroughs comparing the two and apparently the two are so close it doesn't matter or Typhosion ends up ahead by the slightest of margines. The overall raw power and bulk of enemies is low enough that Cyndaquil/Quilava's Ember/Flame Wheel gets OHKO/2HKO's almost as much as Charmander/Charmeleon's earlier Fire Punch, and even later when Charizard gets Flamethrower, Typhlosion's Fire Punch isn't that much weaker as to lose many OHKO/2HKO's. Additionallyl, thunder Punch and surprisingly Rollout give Typhlosion coverage to get through things that give Charizard trouble.

I would put Charmander a bit higher since if terms of "spam strong fire move" its just plain better. Though the problem with hypotheticals is that if Charmander were a GSC starter, it's stronger fire moves would almost certainly be delayed to "balance" it. I doubt Houndour and Slugma would be allowed to get flamethrower in their 30's if they were actually in Johto.
 
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Probably running either Phanpy or Onix on the last slot. :mehowth:
 
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
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Probably running either Phanpy or Onix on the last slot. :mehowth:
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What's wrong with Geodude? A nice thing about Geodude is its complete sustainability with its level up moveset. Onix can't say the same thing.

Also, you might want a water type on your team. Lapras is probably the best one in GSC if you didn't pick Totodile.
 
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Thunderfang777 said:
What's wrong with Geodude? A nice thing about Geodude is its complete sustainability with its level up moveset. Onix can't say the same thing.

Also, you might want a water type on your team. Lapras is probably the best one in GSC if you didn't pick Totodile.
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Can only run 4 mons and this is more about testing Teddiursa.

I've never used Onix in this game and I really need some defensive backbone with the team picked for me lol.

At this point, all the good mons have already been tested, so there are only the niche picks left.
 
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
Can only run 4 mons and this is more about testing Teddiursa.

I've never used Onix in this game and I really need some defensive backbone with the team picked for me lol.

At this point, all the good mons have already been tested, so there are only the niche picks left.
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I read that Teddiursa is very good in Crystal. Better availability, plus STAB Return with its evolution's high base Attack.

Phanpy might be a fun choice. You'll rely on Dig as your STAB for a long time, but Defense Curl + Rollout might be enjoyable to sweep with.

I gotta say, gen 4's decision to buff Dig must have been a godsend to Ground types who didn't learn any ground moves at an early level (Onix and Phanpy).
 
Baconfry said:
In another universe, it was.

View attachment 725963

Yeah. In earlier generations, it wasn't suffering because it had 60 BP Dig, it was suffering because it had NOTHING.
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Wait. Phanpy couldn't learn Dig until gen 9? What the fuck was Game Freak thinking? That means it doesn't have any access to STAB until Earthquake. It looks like Phanpy would have actually been a nifty if niche choice in the Johto games if it had access to Dig.
 
Nidos also lack Dig, possibly as a holdover from Gen 1. (They would have been legit busted in Gen 1 if they had 100 BP STAB that early.)

Improving the Morty and Jasmine matchups and having actual STAB before Victory Road to smack more Rocket Grunts would have probably bumped them up to B tbh.
 
Baconfry said:
In another universe, it was.

View attachment 725963

Yeah. In earlier generations, it wasn't suffering because it had 60 BP Dig, it was suffering because it had NOTHING.
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To be fair a Pokémon getting a STAB move at all back then was more of a luxury than a guarantee back then but jeez, they did Phanphy so dirty. Stuff like this make me think they were trying to lower the power level of Gen 2 to make up for how broken certain things in Gen 1, but over corrected in certain places.
 
ToxicWyvern said:
To be fair a Pokémon getting a STAB move at all back then was more of a luxury than a guarantee back then but jeez, they did Phanphy so dirty. Stuff like this make me think they were trying to lower the power level of Gen 2 to make up for how broken certain things in Gen 1, but over corrected in certain places.
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Maybe STAB via level-up was a luxury, but STAB via TM, especially a TM that's right there, should be more commonplace.
 
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