Good luck with Pineco my man. Feel free to test anything that you haven’t already.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
GSC In-Game Tier List Mark V
- Thread starter Turdterra
- Start date
It's 3am. I regret everything.
Used a normal one (non-Kenya). Wow this thing is actually amazing. It does well in about every Gym but unlike Feraligatr turns in a pretty great League performance too. Return does everything you want it to do, Pink Bow is very nice, and Fly utility is a bonus though you almost never use anything besides Return. Not much to say, I honestly think it could have a shot at S though I would still be happy if it ended up in A. I would share logs but this post is long enough as is, though I can share them if need be. This isn't as stupidly busted as Abra, however.
Just dropping by quick to fish up some of my notes about Spearow on the old thread because it got zero business being at S.
Sorry for not having all the logs on hand.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gsc-in-game-tier-list-mk-iv.3665763/page-20#post-8751768
Conclusion
Fearow is deadweight vs. Jasmine.
It literally can't do anything in this matchup. Magnemite turns it into Kanto Fried Chicken with TBolt. Fearow cannot hurt Steelix.
It is safe to say that at this point, I'm not endorsing Spearow for S-Tier.
It loses to Whitney's Miltank, Chuck's Poliwrath, Pryce's Piloswine, and Jasmine's everything.
An S-Tier is broken by definition. It is literally a tier that goes beyond the standard A-F grading system. Spearow does not fit "broken" by any definition.
It is a very solid mon and excellent at route clearing, but it has several matchups where it's relegated to cleaning up the weaker mons of a team because it can't handle a Leader's Ace. An S-Tier mon is supposed to be your Ace.
It is likely going to wind up at A in my book.
Iirc, that was a max Atk DV Fearow too, no excuses. The mon just don't really have what it takes. Still very solid tho.
God this brings back some repressed memories so I'd just want to give you a heads up on the oncoming grief ahead.
Never mind the fact that Pineco comes woefully underleveled when you get it (available after Bugsy). Never mind the fact that Pineco is reliant on the Headbutt TM which you've just used on your other mon to obtain it in the first place so it's already a setback on your funds to get another Headbutt TM. No, these disadvantages are very minor compared to the fact that Pineco is so bad at battling it's not even funny. Imagine a Phanpy, but it has worse stats, evolves later, and doesn't even get Mud-Slap or Earthquake, so you're stuck with Normal moves and Rollout as your only methods of offense throughout the game unless you feel like blowing up as Pineco's only contribution to a major fight to be sufficient performance.
Let me be emphasize this; you need to put up with an underleveled mon with abysmal Speed and mediocre strength who is SOLELY reliant on unSTAB Headbutt/Strength/Return and Rollout (with no Defense Curl) for damage, making it a terrible route cleaner and an even less competent contributor in boss fights short of killing itself and wasting especially valuable GSC experience. You have to pump that sucker all the way to Level 31 to finally get the benefits of Steel typing and non-terrible stats, which is unfortunately way past most of the Rocket Grunts that this would have helped against, and proceeds to get outmatched (or at the very least 'stalemated') by Clair as well as nearly every non-Poison-type Pokemon in the Elite 4. Oh, and Spikes is also a Level 49 move for Forretress so it doesn't even have that going for it.
I pray for your sanity in training this, but if you conclude with putting this any higher than D, I might strangle you.
Last edited:
I said I'm perfectly fine with Spearow being in A. With that said, I'm going to mostly stand by my statement of it having S potential.
"It loses to Whitney's Miltank, Chuck's Poliwrath, Pryce's Piloswine, and Jasmine's everything."
Yeah, not really. My Fearow beat everyone here but Jasmine. Okay, yes, it does need Poliwrath and Pilowswine to miss some. And yes, it needed Pink Bow for Whitney. But it's perfectly doable. It may not be Kadabra good but I see a LOT of 2HKOs in my logs (it 2HKOed Karen's Umbreon!)
Faulkner:
Spearow (12): 2HKO Pidgey with Peck. Outspeed and 4HKO (almost 3HKO) Pidgeotto with Peck. You end in red but should solo.
Bugsy:
Spearow (17): Metapod is 2HKOed by Peck, Scyther is 3HKOed and Kakuna is a roll to OHKO. Easy sweep.
Rival 2:
Spearow (18): Peck 2HKOs fodder and barely misses the 2HKO on Bayleef. If it only crits you with Razor Leaf once, you should still win.
Whitney:
Fearow (21): 2HKO Clefairy with 150-199 Return. Miltank is a 4HKO while she seems to 3HKO you. You should at least get Miltank to red.
Testing with Pink Bow, you seem to consistently 3HKO Miltank with Return. Good matchup. Thus, you solo.
Rival Burned Tower:
Fearow (22): Peck looks like a 2HKO on Haunter. Return is a 3HKO on Magnemite. Zubat is OHKOed by Return. Bayleef looks like a close 2HKO with Peck.
Morty:
Fearow (25): Sharp Beak. Peck OHKOs Gastly and 2HKOs Haunter, while 3HKOing Gengar. You outspeed everything. Your sweep here depends on if Gengar lands either Hypnosis it usually uses when it gets to move (the Haunters tend to Curse or Spite, making it a damage race).
Chuck:
Fearow (31): Sharp Beak. Peck 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs Poliwrath which 2HKOs with DynamicPunch. Pink Bow Return 2HKOs and you outspeed both. You only need a couple misses here which really isn't that bad, so a solo is more than possible.
Jasmine:
Fearow (31): Sharp Beak. No. Okay you got me here. Fearow cannot ever solo Jasmine.
Pryce:
Fearow (31): Pink Bow. Return OHKOs Seel, 2HKOs Dewgong, and barely 2HKOs Piloswine. Sweep depends on whether Piloswine misses Blizzard.
Rival Tunnel:
Fearow (33): Pink Bow. Return 2HKOs Golbat who confuses you. Magnemite is annoying with status and 2HKOs you but you 2HKO it. Haunter is almost OHKOed by Fly while Meganium is 2HKOed. Sneasel is outsped and OHKOed by Return.
Clair:
Fearow (40): Pink Bow. Outspeeds and OHKOs every Dragonair and and 2HKOs Kingdra with Return who 2HKOs with Surf. Sharp Beak Drill Peck notably leaves Dragonair alive. That's right, Fearow solos Clair and Whitney.
Rival Victory Road:
Fearow (42): Pink Bow. Sneasel is OHKOed by Return. Avoid Magneton (you 2HKO it with Return). Golbat looks like a roll to OHKO with Return. Haunter and Kadabra are OHKOed by Drill Peck, while Meganium is left alive in red.
Will:
Fearow (42): Pink Bow. Sadly this is where Fearow’s luck finally runs out. Return knocks Xatu to red and OHKOs Jynx while roughly 2HKOing Slowbro. The second Xatu and Eggs are knocked to red by Return and Drill Peck respective. Fearow is 2HKOed by Psychic.
Koga:
Fearow (42): Sharp Beak. OHKOs Ariados with Drill Peck but Forretress is a rough 3HKO. Muk and Crobat are thankfully 2HKOed by Return while Venomoth is OHKOed by Drill Peck. Blah blah, evasion.
Bruno:
Fearow (43): Sharp Beak. Hitmontop is OHKOed by Drill Peck. Avoid Onix (it is 4HKOed by Return). Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee are OHKOed by Drill Peck, while you and Machamp knock each other to about red with Drill Peck and Rock Slide respectively (though you beat Machamp). Great.
Karen:
Fearow (44): Pink Bow. Fearow 2HKOs Umbreon with Return (!) and 2HKOs Gengar with Drill Peck, but the latter Curses you. Murkrow is OHKOed by Return but Houndoom is left in red and finishes you off with Flamethrower. Vileplume is left in red by Drill Peck, but isn’t killing you.
Lance:
Fearow (44): Pink Bow. Gyarados is 2HKOed by Return. You straight up lose to the Thunder Dragonite - you don’t even 2HKO with Return and it OHKOs you back with Thunder. HOWEVER, my results were different for Blizzard Dragonite - I actually 2HKOed it as it missed Blizzard, so the other one can potentially be 2HKOed. Level 50 Dragonite wants to Safeguard turn 1 and you 3HKO while it 2HKOs with Outrage. Charizard is 2HKOed by Return but likely finishes you off.
Spearow (12): 2HKO Pidgey with Peck. Outspeed and 4HKO (almost 3HKO) Pidgeotto with Peck. You end in red but should solo.
Bugsy:
Spearow (17): Metapod is 2HKOed by Peck, Scyther is 3HKOed and Kakuna is a roll to OHKO. Easy sweep.
Rival 2:
Spearow (18): Peck 2HKOs fodder and barely misses the 2HKO on Bayleef. If it only crits you with Razor Leaf once, you should still win.
Whitney:
Fearow (21): 2HKO Clefairy with 150-199 Return. Miltank is a 4HKO while she seems to 3HKO you. You should at least get Miltank to red.
Testing with Pink Bow, you seem to consistently 3HKO Miltank with Return. Good matchup. Thus, you solo.
Rival Burned Tower:
Fearow (22): Peck looks like a 2HKO on Haunter. Return is a 3HKO on Magnemite. Zubat is OHKOed by Return. Bayleef looks like a close 2HKO with Peck.
Morty:
Fearow (25): Sharp Beak. Peck OHKOs Gastly and 2HKOs Haunter, while 3HKOing Gengar. You outspeed everything. Your sweep here depends on if Gengar lands either Hypnosis it usually uses when it gets to move (the Haunters tend to Curse or Spite, making it a damage race).
Chuck:
Fearow (31): Sharp Beak. Peck 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs Poliwrath which 2HKOs with DynamicPunch. Pink Bow Return 2HKOs and you outspeed both. You only need a couple misses here which really isn't that bad, so a solo is more than possible.
Jasmine:
Fearow (31): Sharp Beak. No. Okay you got me here. Fearow cannot ever solo Jasmine.
Pryce:
Fearow (31): Pink Bow. Return OHKOs Seel, 2HKOs Dewgong, and barely 2HKOs Piloswine. Sweep depends on whether Piloswine misses Blizzard.
Rival Tunnel:
Fearow (33): Pink Bow. Return 2HKOs Golbat who confuses you. Magnemite is annoying with status and 2HKOs you but you 2HKO it. Haunter is almost OHKOed by Fly while Meganium is 2HKOed. Sneasel is outsped and OHKOed by Return.
Clair:
Fearow (40): Pink Bow. Outspeeds and OHKOs every Dragonair and and 2HKOs Kingdra with Return who 2HKOs with Surf. Sharp Beak Drill Peck notably leaves Dragonair alive. That's right, Fearow solos Clair and Whitney.
Rival Victory Road:
Fearow (42): Pink Bow. Sneasel is OHKOed by Return. Avoid Magneton (you 2HKO it with Return). Golbat looks like a roll to OHKO with Return. Haunter and Kadabra are OHKOed by Drill Peck, while Meganium is left alive in red.
Will:
Fearow (42): Pink Bow. Sadly this is where Fearow’s luck finally runs out. Return knocks Xatu to red and OHKOs Jynx while roughly 2HKOing Slowbro. The second Xatu and Eggs are knocked to red by Return and Drill Peck respective. Fearow is 2HKOed by Psychic.
Koga:
Fearow (42): Sharp Beak. OHKOs Ariados with Drill Peck but Forretress is a rough 3HKO. Muk and Crobat are thankfully 2HKOed by Return while Venomoth is OHKOed by Drill Peck. Blah blah, evasion.
Bruno:
Fearow (43): Sharp Beak. Hitmontop is OHKOed by Drill Peck. Avoid Onix (it is 4HKOed by Return). Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee are OHKOed by Drill Peck, while you and Machamp knock each other to about red with Drill Peck and Rock Slide respectively (though you beat Machamp). Great.
Karen:
Fearow (44): Pink Bow. Fearow 2HKOs Umbreon with Return (!) and 2HKOs Gengar with Drill Peck, but the latter Curses you. Murkrow is OHKOed by Return but Houndoom is left in red and finishes you off with Flamethrower. Vileplume is left in red by Drill Peck, but isn’t killing you.
Lance:
Fearow (44): Pink Bow. Gyarados is 2HKOed by Return. You straight up lose to the Thunder Dragonite - you don’t even 2HKO with Return and it OHKOs you back with Thunder. HOWEVER, my results were different for Blizzard Dragonite - I actually 2HKOed it as it missed Blizzard, so the other one can potentially be 2HKOed. Level 50 Dragonite wants to Safeguard turn 1 and you 3HKO while it 2HKOs with Outrage. Charizard is 2HKOed by Return but likely finishes you off.
Like I said before, I'm fine with A, but my logs don't line up with yours. I'm going to level with you: Most of the time, I don't usually make S noms like this. I was not even expecting Spearow to BE as good as it was before giving the thing a look. That's why my S nom was tentative. It was also because I had already posted Totodile's logs and CPing logs can be kinda tedious.
Does Fearow break the game as badly as Abra or BW1 Darumaka do? Arguably, no. With that being said my logs also indicate a really good performance. A quick skim shows it 2HKOS a ton of things. Though your statement of it losing to aces does hold weight (it even loses to Karen's Houndoom, too) I'd also say only needing a couple misses in the midgame really isn't that bad. Kadabra needed a Iron Tail miss for Steelix and a bit of grinding to Psybeam at 21 for Whitney, so even it wasn't flawless.
TLDR: I can accept Spearow in A, but I also feel my logs seem to indicate it feels like an S- mon.
While I have had experience with Pineco in HGSS, I'd say it's honestly the same case there too, so I don't why it shouldn't be D or lower here either. Since HGSS is basically "GSC with a few tweaks" I can attest to it being bad. The only difference there is it has early STAB Bug Bite, but that did little to change it feeling deadweight everywhere. Without Bug Bite sounds even worse.
Last edited:
Going physical using Sludge Bomb+Return with Grass coverage (even if it's just Vine Whip) is quite possibly the best way to use the Bellsprout line; particularly in Crystal where you don't want to delay Weepinbel's evolution until 44 (Razor Leaf) and would rather start spamming Sleep Powder + Return off base 105 ATK starting in Goldenrod (People sometimes forget that the Bellsprout line actually has higher Atk than SpAtk).
Before that, well... if you think Chikorita's earlygame is bad, wait until you've seen Bellsprout's. If your only means of offense is a 10 PP move that is resisted (sometimes x4) by 70% of the early mons means, you only combat things you can hit for SE damage. Growth really doesn't help much at all despite outdamaging Razor Leaf after 1 Growth (Bellsprouts SpA is that much higher than Chiko's) since you take too much damage setting it up against resists and you deal enough damage to SE targets anyways.
Fair, how about A/B then?
Also, I'm considering testing the following Pokemon in VC Crystal: Poliwrath, Furret, Flareon, and Magneton.
EDIT: You know what, maybe I'll toss in two more Pokemon (so we can get this done faster). I choose Chikorita and Abra.
Last edited:
I don't think you can say that Arcanine has a good performance against Whitney while you have stated the following
when Fearow is faster than Arcanine, hits much stronger thanks to STAB, and has a better leveling rate
I'll have to take a look at my logs for Whitney, but I guess that's where the difference lies. I don't really remember having backtracked for Tuscany's Pink Bow by then and I most certainly didn't have all that happiness on Fearow. Iirc, by Whitney, Return wasn't doing enough for me to pick it over Swift.
Also, relying on misses is kinda sketchy. It's like I said about Chuck's Poliwrath, if you can't outspeed and 3HKO it, you're giving it too many chances for it to hax you.
Pryce can also put you under pressure with Icy Wind because Speed drops can and will mess up potential sweeps.
I think the biggest difference here is the happiness factor. If you can get a really strong Return quickly, it might overturn otherwise shaky matchups like Chuck and Whitney.
Also, unrelated, but GSC Abra would be an S+ Tier easily, but no one wants that tier for obvious reasons.
Chuck I can see you winning fairly easily. 50% accuracy after all, though he does have Mind Reader (I think he tends to use Dynamic Punch without locking on first though).
Pryce? Yeah a lot more shaky, I can see why you have doubts there.
Whitney I can confirm you absolutely need Pink Bow for or you will not 3HKO. I actually tested without it myself and failed to 3HKO, though she doesn’t seem to use Milk Drink much at all.
Personally I think the minor failings midgame are made up by the Clair matchup; I can’t think of much else that reliably solos her like Fearow did.
If it’s A…I totally get that! I just defended my position because I didn’t want to make it seem like I was outright making stuff up by not providing logs. I trust your judgement.
It’s going to feel very weird if Abra is the only S mon though.
B is the most likely case for it with C tier at its worst.
I’ve been testing Wrath, sadly my computer is having technical issues so I had to stop the test right after Clair. Hoping I can get back to it. Wrath is a Solid C/B mon. It curb stomps Morty and Jasmine and can deal with Chuck and Pryce as well. Though the latter two are a bit more luck dependent. It also sweeps Clair but you gotta roll Hypnosis Turn 1 or 2 (she uses TWave so PZNCureBerry helps immensely) while hitting Hypnosis Turn 1 on the rest of her mons. Please note that even if it sweeps Clair, it’s not a good MU by any means as I’m relying on a fairly inaccurate move and the sweep can end the moment I miss it twice or even once later on.
From the calcs provided by Drumstick (and your latter point), it does seem I have underestimated Fearow.
I do think it's worth noting that Arcanine is also bulkier than Fearow and can flinch Miltank, something Fearow really can't do. Drumstick also seems to have used the ''normal'' Fearow instead of Kenya, so there is the matter of whether the latter can replicate the former's performance...
Good to know! My only concern is the moves I should keep, they learn a lot of good moves but can only carry 4. Some combination of Rain Dance, Surf, Ice Punch, Hypnosis, Mind Reader, Dynamicpunch, Cross Chop, Submission, Belly Drum, and Return IMO is what I'm gunning for.
I doubt Kenya can replicate the performance on Whitney. The normal Spearow has the benefit of increased happiness from being in the party longer. Kenya, despite boosted EXP, doesn’t have base capture happiness unless I’m missing something. Thus, its Return would be weaker.
I’d honestly say normal Spearow is the best way to use it anyway. You beat Faulkner and Bugsy and build up friendship from catching it at level 2. Boosted EXP is good, yes, but you can’t get nearly as much mileage out of Peck or Drill Peck as you do boosted Return. And because you only really need Drill Peck for Bruno and Koga, and I think Pink Bow Return just outdamages Peck for Chuck…so yeah Return is more relevant like 80% of the time.
Not a huge fan of the Pink Bow backtrack though. Very easy to forget to get it after beating Faulkner.
Last edited:
Mind Reader is 51 my man. Or egg move. Wrath cannot learn Cross Chop in Gen 2. Belly Drum is only Poliwhirl and it gets that at 43. The set that I ran up until I need to fight Dragons was Rain Dance, Surf, Hypnosis, and Return. Ice Punch came into play at Clair so far. So really you only have 5 moves you need to have at a given time. Submission would only really help with Karen and even then just her Umbreon. You hit everything else with Return/Surf.
I used Pink Bow most of the time as Mystic Water Surf was resisted by at least one Pokémon up to Clair (was used on Jasmine of course).
Go for it!
I started my run with Pidgey, Pineco, Corsola and Jynx after deciding the cost of Cubone would be too much when I probably need to use healing items on Pineco and have found I really dislike this rule. I want to defeat every trainer on the route I caught Pidgey because those levels give me double friendship. This means I have to save to make sure I don't run into a spinner with 3 Bellsprouts which would be great exp for me because otherwise I won't be able to get to the escape rope without getting to much exp and would have to walk out of the tower instead.
I think a much better rule would be that you need to state when and how much you grind on wild Pokemon or repeatable trainers.
General rule of thumb is that we don’t grind on wilds or the repeatable trainers. In the OP the DST Trick states that refights may only happen if a late arrival Pokemon needs the XP and that you need to be transparent. If you do grind on wilds, be transparent. (I did this on Gyarados in LoR because my levels were below 30 pre Pryce.) Ideally, since this is Johto, you shouldn’t be matching levels with fights after Morty as the jump in levels becomes pretty high and the XP you get generally isn’t enough.
For Falkner, you are gonna out level him no matter what you do, so he’s acceptable to out level. It is also acceptable to outlevel Pryce because for whatever reason, Jasmine who is the sixth Leader just outlevels him.
To be honest I don't see how it is an issue. Other than Falkner, I barely make it to the level cap with my starters after defeating every trainer available up to that point, and I don't get to match at all post seven badges. The only one able to do so was Kenya to me (and Rocky should be able too)
It's specifically Falkner I had a problem with.
Don’t worry about Falkner as I stated.
Edit: The OP has been updated under the Level Cap section to reflect this.
Last edited:
I agree. I think it should be okay to grind Pokemon in the wild or with repeatable trainers in certain cases (e.g. if you picked up a new but underleveled Pokemon like Tauros or Magmar and need to get them up to speed, and as long as you aren't overleveled by the time you face the next boss).
And although it doesn't directly pertain to this tier list, the fact remains most people are probably gonna use a full team of 6, something not really efficient in Johto without wild grinding (I do realize 4 is the optimum team size and makes testing easier, not arguing against it).
Edit: Good going, Turdterra. I remember having similar confusion myself on the previous tier list.
11 Pidgey swept Falkner with 18/32 HP remaining after consuming a berry.
18 Pidgeotto swept Bugsy with 45/55 HP remaining
19 Pidgeotto swept Silver with 51/57 HP remaining
21 Pidgeotto 2HKO'd Clefairy but was 3HKO'd by Miltank. It's slower than Miltank and looks like a 4HKO with Return.
25 Pidgeotto 2-3HKO's Haunter, 3HKO's Magnemite taking 29/70 to Thundershock, 1HKO Zubat and 2HKO's Bayleef who used poison powder every time I fought it. This means you can sweep if Haunter doesn't curse but otherwise you just need to switch out to clear it.
27 Pidgeotto 2HKO's Gastly and Haunters. It's slower and 3HKO's Gengar but it looked close enough that if I were 25 it would probably be a 4HKO. Dream Eater 2HKO's
29 Pidgeotto 2HKO's Primeape but took 22/80 from a 3 hit Fury Swipes. It then takes 53/80 from Dynamic Punch while 3HKOing Poliwrath. I also was 1HKO'd by Dynamic Punch from full in both attempts that Primeape used Leer.
33 Pidgeotto 2HKO's Seel, taking 20/90 from Icy Wind. It 2HKO's Dewgong but is slower after a speed drop and takes 62/90 from Aurora Beam. It 3HKO's Piloswine but is 1HKO'd by Blizzard/
33 Pidgeotto 2HKO's Magnemite with Mud Slap but is 1HKO'd by Thunderbolt. I can't tell if Mud Slap has enough PP to get Steelix to Hyper Potion but you take 66/90 from Iron Tail before that becomes a problem.
34 Pidgeotto 2HKO's Golbat. 3HKO's Magnemite who does 44/93 with Thundershock and has Thunder Wave. Fly 2HKO's Haunter who Curses. Return 2HKO's Sneasel who does 21/93 with Feint Attack. Fly 3HKO's Meganium after Reflect who does 24/96 with Body Slam.
39 Pidgeot 2HKO's Dragonairs, taking 30/119 from Surf and 60/119 from . It's somewhat favored to beat all 3 of them with a Przcure berry. Kingdra is a 2HKO with Pink Bow Pink Bow and does 70/119 with Surf. 38 does not 2HKO.
39 Pidgeot 1HKO's Sneasel, 3HKO's Magneton taking 52/122 from Thundershock, 2HKO's Haunter who Curses, 2HKO's Meganium who Reflects, 1HKO's Kadabra
40 Pidgeot 2HKO's Xatus, taking 60 and 65/125 from Psychic, 1HKO's Jynx, 3HKO's Slowbro, taking 67/125 from Psychic and 3HKO's Exeggutor, taking 75/125 from Psychic
40 Pidgeot 2HKO's Ariados with Return+Swift taking 8/125 Giga Drain damage. Forretress will always Protect or Explosion on Fly so you have a 50% chance to beat it. Venomoth is a 1HKO. Muk and Crobat are a 2HKO with Return or 3HKO with Return + Swift. Muk does 56/128 with Sludge Bomb and Crobat does 34/128 with Wing Attack
41 Pidgeot 2HKO's Hitmontop taking 15/128 from Quick Attack (Wing Attack + Quick Attack KO, Fly gets Protected) , 1HKO's Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan and 2HKO's Machamp, taking 84/128 from Rock Slide. You can Return then Fly to avoid Hyper Potion.
41 Pidgeot 3HKO's Umbreon taking 30/128 from Feint Attack, 1HKO's Murkrow, 2HKO's Vileplume taking 22/128 from Petal Dance, 2HKO's Houndoom taking 84/128 from Flame Thrower (Return + Quick Attack doesn't KO) Pidgeot is slower than Houndoom and Gengar. I didn't have Wing Attack and Gengar Destiny Bonds on Fly.
42 Pidgeot 2HKO's Gyarados taking 51/131 from Surf and 76/131 from Hyper Beam, 3HKO's Dragonite who 1HKO's with Thunder and Blizzard, 2HKO's Charizard taking 88/131 from Flamethrower, 4HKO's Aerodactyl taking 104/131 from Rock Slide, 3HKO's 50 Dragonite taking 85/131 from Outrage. It's slower than Aerodactyl and Charizard
18 Pidgeotto swept Bugsy with 45/55 HP remaining
19 Pidgeotto swept Silver with 51/57 HP remaining
21 Pidgeotto 2HKO'd Clefairy but was 3HKO'd by Miltank. It's slower than Miltank and looks like a 4HKO with Return.
25 Pidgeotto 2-3HKO's Haunter, 3HKO's Magnemite taking 29/70 to Thundershock, 1HKO Zubat and 2HKO's Bayleef who used poison powder every time I fought it. This means you can sweep if Haunter doesn't curse but otherwise you just need to switch out to clear it.
27 Pidgeotto 2HKO's Gastly and Haunters. It's slower and 3HKO's Gengar but it looked close enough that if I were 25 it would probably be a 4HKO. Dream Eater 2HKO's
29 Pidgeotto 2HKO's Primeape but took 22/80 from a 3 hit Fury Swipes. It then takes 53/80 from Dynamic Punch while 3HKOing Poliwrath. I also was 1HKO'd by Dynamic Punch from full in both attempts that Primeape used Leer.
33 Pidgeotto 2HKO's Seel, taking 20/90 from Icy Wind. It 2HKO's Dewgong but is slower after a speed drop and takes 62/90 from Aurora Beam. It 3HKO's Piloswine but is 1HKO'd by Blizzard/
33 Pidgeotto 2HKO's Magnemite with Mud Slap but is 1HKO'd by Thunderbolt. I can't tell if Mud Slap has enough PP to get Steelix to Hyper Potion but you take 66/90 from Iron Tail before that becomes a problem.
34 Pidgeotto 2HKO's Golbat. 3HKO's Magnemite who does 44/93 with Thundershock and has Thunder Wave. Fly 2HKO's Haunter who Curses. Return 2HKO's Sneasel who does 21/93 with Feint Attack. Fly 3HKO's Meganium after Reflect who does 24/96 with Body Slam.
39 Pidgeot 2HKO's Dragonairs, taking 30/119 from Surf and 60/119 from . It's somewhat favored to beat all 3 of them with a Przcure berry. Kingdra is a 2HKO with Pink Bow Pink Bow and does 70/119 with Surf. 38 does not 2HKO.
39 Pidgeot 1HKO's Sneasel, 3HKO's Magneton taking 52/122 from Thundershock, 2HKO's Haunter who Curses, 2HKO's Meganium who Reflects, 1HKO's Kadabra
40 Pidgeot 2HKO's Xatus, taking 60 and 65/125 from Psychic, 1HKO's Jynx, 3HKO's Slowbro, taking 67/125 from Psychic and 3HKO's Exeggutor, taking 75/125 from Psychic
40 Pidgeot 2HKO's Ariados with Return+Swift taking 8/125 Giga Drain damage. Forretress will always Protect or Explosion on Fly so you have a 50% chance to beat it. Venomoth is a 1HKO. Muk and Crobat are a 2HKO with Return or 3HKO with Return + Swift. Muk does 56/128 with Sludge Bomb and Crobat does 34/128 with Wing Attack
41 Pidgeot 2HKO's Hitmontop taking 15/128 from Quick Attack (Wing Attack + Quick Attack KO, Fly gets Protected) , 1HKO's Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan and 2HKO's Machamp, taking 84/128 from Rock Slide. You can Return then Fly to avoid Hyper Potion.
41 Pidgeot 3HKO's Umbreon taking 30/128 from Feint Attack, 1HKO's Murkrow, 2HKO's Vileplume taking 22/128 from Petal Dance, 2HKO's Houndoom taking 84/128 from Flame Thrower (Return + Quick Attack doesn't KO) Pidgeot is slower than Houndoom and Gengar. I didn't have Wing Attack and Gengar Destiny Bonds on Fly.
42 Pidgeot 2HKO's Gyarados taking 51/131 from Surf and 76/131 from Hyper Beam, 3HKO's Dragonite who 1HKO's with Thunder and Blizzard, 2HKO's Charizard taking 88/131 from Flamethrower, 4HKO's Aerodactyl taking 104/131 from Rock Slide, 3HKO's 50 Dragonite taking 85/131 from Outrage. It's slower than Aerodactyl and Charizard
Good Matchups: Falkner, Bugsy, Rivals 2,3&5, Clair Koga, Bruno,
Ok Matchups:Rival 4, Chuck, Karen
Bad Matchups: Whitney, Morty, Pryce, Jasmine, Will, Lance
All the talk about Spearow made me wonder if Pidgey is as good as everyone thinks. Pidgey is great, having Sprout Tower to get it's first levels which carry it until it evolves. The Pidgeotto phase is pretty bad, losing to Whitney and only 4HKOing Gengar. You don't learn Wing Attack until 33 by which point you should have Fly anyway making Poliwrath very shaky only 3HKOing it. You don't touch Jasmine and Pryce has no trouble beating you. You don't get Pidgeot until you're approaching Clair and then it performs ok from there.
I'd say the Pidgey part is A, Pidgeotto is E and Pidgeot is C. It absolutely needs Return the most contested TM, as it's next best choice is Swift. I think it should be C because it evolves too late. It would definitely be among the best of C so I don't mind that I expect people to disagree and want it to stay B.
Ok Matchups:Rival 4, Chuck, Karen
Bad Matchups: Whitney, Morty, Pryce, Jasmine, Will, Lance
All the talk about Spearow made me wonder if Pidgey is as good as everyone thinks. Pidgey is great, having Sprout Tower to get it's first levels which carry it until it evolves. The Pidgeotto phase is pretty bad, losing to Whitney and only 4HKOing Gengar. You don't learn Wing Attack until 33 by which point you should have Fly anyway making Poliwrath very shaky only 3HKOing it. You don't touch Jasmine and Pryce has no trouble beating you. You don't get Pidgeot until you're approaching Clair and then it performs ok from there.
I'd say the Pidgey part is A, Pidgeotto is E and Pidgeot is C. It absolutely needs Return the most contested TM, as it's next best choice is Swift. I think it should be C because it evolves too late. It would definitely be among the best of C so I don't mind that I expect people to disagree and want it to stay B.
21 Pineco 2HKOs Clefairy with Takedown and KO's Miltank with Self-Destruct. It only takes 13 from Rollout so I was able to sweep while taking an extra hit having Pidgeotto switch out into it to gain the EXP. Rollout only does 13/59 while stomp does 17/59. You have Protect to cancel Rollout but this doesn't seem reliable as a lot of metronome moves can probably do too much damage to let you handle Miltank after. Miltank by itself is reliable though.
25 Pineco 3HKO's Magnemite with Strength, 2HKO's Zubat and taking 8/70 from Bite. Bayleef is 3HKO's while taking 8/70 from Razor Leaf. Despite how good this looks without a Bitter Berry I usually could only beat Zubat and Magnemite, although I was pretty unlucky getting flinched 6/8 bites over 2 battles. With a Bitter Berry it's consistent.
25 Pineco Rollout 2HKO's Gastly, 1HKO's Haunter, 1HKO's Gengar then 1HKO's the last Haunter. A 65% chance to beat Gengar. If you use something else to beat Gastly Rollout won't 2hKO Gengar who will be able to knock you out with Shadow Ball.
29 Pineco can beat Primeape 1v1 and can live a Surf to 1HKO Poliwrath with Self Destruct. It doesn't live 2 though so you won't be able to get exp reliably from switching another pokemon into it.
31 Forretress I used my 2 rare Candies and Poliwrath now only does 38/100 with Surf, making it easy to Self Destruct on and give something else the experience.
33 Forretress beats Pryce with 66/106 HP remaining using Strength. Rollout could beat him faster.
33 Forretress 3HKOs Magnemite with Strength and 1HKO's with Self Destruct. It's faster but takes 41/106 from Thunderbolt so you lose. Self Destruct does 1/4 to Steelix so there's probably a way to beat it by getting the right attacks during Bide but it seems unlikely with her Hyper Potion.
33 Forretress Strength 3HKO's Golbat who does 14/109 with Wing Attack and Magnemite who only uses Sonic Boom and Status. You 2HKO Sneasel who does 8/109 with Feint Attack and 3HKO Meganium, who does 6/109 with Body Slam. Golbat and Magnemite are big problems that will status you. With Rollout you 2HKO Haunter, but take a Curse and Mean Look.
37 Forretress 2HKO's Dragonair with Pink Bow Return and takes 30/199 from Surf meaning you should only expect to beat 2. Self Destruct 1HKO's Kingler but if it Smokescreen's you can miss.
39 Forretress 2HKO's Sneasel, taking 6/125 from Feint Attack, 3HKO's Golbat, taking 14/125 from Wing Attack, 5HKO's Magneton, taking 25/125 from Thundershock (you can use Bide), 1HKO's Kadabra with Strength, 6HKO's Meganium who does 7/125 with Body Slam. Rollout 2HKO's Haunter after Curse than KO's Kadabra then 2HKO's Meganium.
40 Forretress 3HKO's both Xatu taking 32 and 40/128 from Psychic, 2HKO's Jynx taking 32/128 from Psychic, takes 31/128 from Slowbro's Psychic while 5HKOing with Rollout, and 38/128 from Exeggutor's and needs to Explode to kill him.
40 Forretress 3HKO's Ariados with Rollout, 1HKO's Venomoth who does 17/128 with Psychic. Strength 3HKO's Venomoth. Opposing Forretress will use Protect so it's hard to tell how many Rollout. It Exploded before I could KO doing 7/128 from Swift and 51/128 from Explosion. You can alternate Protect and Strength to get a 50% chance to dodge Explosion. I don't think Muk can touch you but it's a 4HKO with Strength as is Crobat who does 20/128 with Wing Attacks.
40 Forretress 3HKO's Hitmontop, taking 13/128 from Dig (you can defense curl and protect to set up), 3HKO Hitmonchan, losing 68/128 to Fire Punch, 2HKO Hitmonlee taking 25/128 from double kick (I took 4 of these in a row, maybe it doesn't high jump kick because I have protect), takes 54/128 from Cross Chop meaning sometimes you can Bide to KO but should probably plan to Explode and can KO Onix with Bide, taking 19/128 from Earthquake.
40 Forretress 6HKO's Umbreon taking 13/128 from Feint Attack, 3HKO's Gengar taking 2/128 from Lick and being cursed, 3HKO's Murkrow taking 20/128 from Feint Attack, 4HKO's Vileplume taking 12/128 from Petal Dance and Houndoom 1HKO's (Forretress is slower than all)
41 Forretress 4HKO's Gyarados taking 48/131 from Surf, 3HKO's Dragonite who taking 63/131 from Thunder or 31/131 from Blizzard, Charizard 1HKO's, 3HKO's Aerodactyl with Rollout taking 31/131 from Rock Slide, 50 Dragonite 1HKO's. It's slower then all.
25 Pineco 3HKO's Magnemite with Strength, 2HKO's Zubat and taking 8/70 from Bite. Bayleef is 3HKO's while taking 8/70 from Razor Leaf. Despite how good this looks without a Bitter Berry I usually could only beat Zubat and Magnemite, although I was pretty unlucky getting flinched 6/8 bites over 2 battles. With a Bitter Berry it's consistent.
25 Pineco Rollout 2HKO's Gastly, 1HKO's Haunter, 1HKO's Gengar then 1HKO's the last Haunter. A 65% chance to beat Gengar. If you use something else to beat Gastly Rollout won't 2hKO Gengar who will be able to knock you out with Shadow Ball.
29 Pineco can beat Primeape 1v1 and can live a Surf to 1HKO Poliwrath with Self Destruct. It doesn't live 2 though so you won't be able to get exp reliably from switching another pokemon into it.
31 Forretress I used my 2 rare Candies and Poliwrath now only does 38/100 with Surf, making it easy to Self Destruct on and give something else the experience.
33 Forretress beats Pryce with 66/106 HP remaining using Strength. Rollout could beat him faster.
33 Forretress 3HKOs Magnemite with Strength and 1HKO's with Self Destruct. It's faster but takes 41/106 from Thunderbolt so you lose. Self Destruct does 1/4 to Steelix so there's probably a way to beat it by getting the right attacks during Bide but it seems unlikely with her Hyper Potion.
33 Forretress Strength 3HKO's Golbat who does 14/109 with Wing Attack and Magnemite who only uses Sonic Boom and Status. You 2HKO Sneasel who does 8/109 with Feint Attack and 3HKO Meganium, who does 6/109 with Body Slam. Golbat and Magnemite are big problems that will status you. With Rollout you 2HKO Haunter, but take a Curse and Mean Look.
37 Forretress 2HKO's Dragonair with Pink Bow Return and takes 30/199 from Surf meaning you should only expect to beat 2. Self Destruct 1HKO's Kingler but if it Smokescreen's you can miss.
39 Forretress 2HKO's Sneasel, taking 6/125 from Feint Attack, 3HKO's Golbat, taking 14/125 from Wing Attack, 5HKO's Magneton, taking 25/125 from Thundershock (you can use Bide), 1HKO's Kadabra with Strength, 6HKO's Meganium who does 7/125 with Body Slam. Rollout 2HKO's Haunter after Curse than KO's Kadabra then 2HKO's Meganium.
40 Forretress 3HKO's both Xatu taking 32 and 40/128 from Psychic, 2HKO's Jynx taking 32/128 from Psychic, takes 31/128 from Slowbro's Psychic while 5HKOing with Rollout, and 38/128 from Exeggutor's and needs to Explode to kill him.
40 Forretress 3HKO's Ariados with Rollout, 1HKO's Venomoth who does 17/128 with Psychic. Strength 3HKO's Venomoth. Opposing Forretress will use Protect so it's hard to tell how many Rollout. It Exploded before I could KO doing 7/128 from Swift and 51/128 from Explosion. You can alternate Protect and Strength to get a 50% chance to dodge Explosion. I don't think Muk can touch you but it's a 4HKO with Strength as is Crobat who does 20/128 with Wing Attacks.
40 Forretress 3HKO's Hitmontop, taking 13/128 from Dig (you can defense curl and protect to set up), 3HKO Hitmonchan, losing 68/128 to Fire Punch, 2HKO Hitmonlee taking 25/128 from double kick (I took 4 of these in a row, maybe it doesn't high jump kick because I have protect), takes 54/128 from Cross Chop meaning sometimes you can Bide to KO but should probably plan to Explode and can KO Onix with Bide, taking 19/128 from Earthquake.
40 Forretress 6HKO's Umbreon taking 13/128 from Feint Attack, 3HKO's Gengar taking 2/128 from Lick and being cursed, 3HKO's Murkrow taking 20/128 from Feint Attack, 4HKO's Vileplume taking 12/128 from Petal Dance and Houndoom 1HKO's (Forretress is slower than all)
41 Forretress 4HKO's Gyarados taking 48/131 from Surf, 3HKO's Dragonite who taking 63/131 from Thunder or 31/131 from Blizzard, Charizard 1HKO's, 3HKO's Aerodactyl with Rollout taking 31/131 from Rock Slide, 50 Dragonite 1HKO's. It's slower then all.
Good Matchups: Whitney, Chuck, Pryce, Koga
Ok Matchups: Morty, Rivals, Clair, Will, Bruno
Bad Matchups: Jasmine, Karen, Lance
I'll start by saying I don't think Exploding losing experience is a problem. You can start with who you want to receive the experience, switch to your HM slave then go into Pineco when it dies. Pineco needed 3 trips to the Pokemon center for PP and 5 fresh water to gain 10 levels, which happens after you get the Bicycle so it isn't terrible. After Whitney you gain access to Strength and you outlevel route trainers enough to that leveling up to evolve isn't too bad but it's still bad enough to be D. If you had an exp share to level it I think it's gym performances would be C but being so bad at routes when they are so easy for most Pokemon is pretty unforgivable
Ok Matchups: Morty, Rivals, Clair, Will, Bruno
Bad Matchups: Jasmine, Karen, Lance
I'll start by saying I don't think Exploding losing experience is a problem. You can start with who you want to receive the experience, switch to your HM slave then go into Pineco when it dies. Pineco needed 3 trips to the Pokemon center for PP and 5 fresh water to gain 10 levels, which happens after you get the Bicycle so it isn't terrible. After Whitney you gain access to Strength and you outlevel route trainers enough to that leveling up to evolve isn't too bad but it's still bad enough to be D. If you had an exp share to level it I think it's gym performances would be C but being so bad at routes when they are so easy for most Pokemon is pretty unforgivable
25 Corsola 2HKO's Haunter, outspeeds and 1HKO's Magnemite, does 1/4 to Bayleef with Strength while being slower and 2HKO'd. It 2HKO's Zubat while taking 5/70 from Bite.
27 Corsola 1HKO's Gastly, 2HKO's Haunter and 3HKOs Gengar. Haunter and Gengar are really close to being 1HKO and 2HKO respectively so overleveling shouldn't really have changed it. Rollout 2HKO's Gastly, 1HKO's Haunter, 1HKO's Gengar then 1HKO's the last Haunter. A 65% chance to beat Gengar. If you use something else to beat Gastly Rollout won't 2hKO Gengar who will be able to knock you out with Shadow Ball.
30 Corsola 2HKO's Primeape and only Karate Chop does 36/83 so you can lose to a crit. Dynamic Punch does 72/83 and you look like you 6-7HKO back.
33 Corsola sweeps Pryce, losing 25/93 HP. You need to use the rollout TM to break through Dewgong's Rest.
33 Corsola sweeps Jasmine, 1HKOing Magnemites and has a chance to 1HKO Steelix. It does 47/93 with Iron Tail. Corsola actually outspeeds everything which is a first.
34 Corsola 2HKO's Golbat taking 13/93 from Bite. 1HKO's Magnemite while outspeeding, 2HKO's Sneasel taking 13/93 from Feint Attack and barely misses the 2HKO on Haunter, taking 16 from Shadow Ball. Meganium 1HKO's
37 Corsola can beat 1 Dragonair by 3HKoing Strength as it does 26/101 with Surf. Kingdra just barely lives a Mirror Coat, doing 68/101. If you let anything chip it you can beat it.
39 Corsola Surf 2HKO's Sneasel, who did 5/107 with Fury Cutter, 2HKO's Magneton who does 52/107 with Thundershock (if you mirror coat there seems to be a 50% chance of Thunderwave), 2HKO's Golbat who does 14/107 with Bite, Meganium 1HKO's with Razor Leaf. It 2HKO's Haunter and Kadabra, who Curse and Future Sight.
40 Corsola 3HKO's Xatus taking 47 and 53/109, 2HKO's Jynx taking 59/109. Mirror Coat does 90% to Slowbro who does 56/109 with Psychic. You can then Recover stall it. Mirror Coat 1HKO's Exeggutor, taking 70/109
40 Corsola takes 1HKO's Ariados with Mirror coat, taking 68/109 from Giga Drain. It 3HKO's Foretress who does 9/109 with Swift and 64/109 with Explosion. Surf 4HKO's Muk who does 9/109 with Sludge Bomb after 6 Hardens. Surf 3HKO's Venomoth who does 31/112 with Psychic. Crobat is 4HKO'd and does 15/109 with Wing Attack.
40 Corsola gets +6 on Hitmontop, taking 12/109 and 3HKoing with Surf, 3HKO's Hitmonlee taking 28/109 from Hi Jump Kick, 2HKO's Hitmonchan taking 31/112 from Thunder Punch, 1HKO's Onix, taking 16/109 from Earthquake 4HKO'd Machamp, taking 44/112 from Cross Chop but can't prevent the Hyper Potion so it's more like 8HKO. All damage are at +6 defense, just don't get crit :)
40 Corsola 6HKO's Umbreon taking 24/109 from Feint Attack, 3HKO's Gengar taking 8/109 from Lick and getting cursed, 2HKO's Murkrow taking 45/109 from Feint Attack, Vileplume 1HKO's, 2HKO's Houndoom taking 71/109 from Crunch (Corsola is slower than all)
40 Corsola 2HKO's Gyarados taking 41/109 from Surf, 2HKO's Dragonite taking 63/131 from Thunder, 3HKO's Blizzard Dragonite taking 30/131 from Twister, 3HKO's Charizard taking 16/109 from Wing Attack, 2HKO's Aerodactyl taking 56/109 from Rock Slide, 2HKO's 50 Dragonite taking 76/109 from Outrage and leaving a sliver of health left. It's slower than all
27 Corsola 1HKO's Gastly, 2HKO's Haunter and 3HKOs Gengar. Haunter and Gengar are really close to being 1HKO and 2HKO respectively so overleveling shouldn't really have changed it. Rollout 2HKO's Gastly, 1HKO's Haunter, 1HKO's Gengar then 1HKO's the last Haunter. A 65% chance to beat Gengar. If you use something else to beat Gastly Rollout won't 2hKO Gengar who will be able to knock you out with Shadow Ball.
30 Corsola 2HKO's Primeape and only Karate Chop does 36/83 so you can lose to a crit. Dynamic Punch does 72/83 and you look like you 6-7HKO back.
33 Corsola sweeps Pryce, losing 25/93 HP. You need to use the rollout TM to break through Dewgong's Rest.
33 Corsola sweeps Jasmine, 1HKOing Magnemites and has a chance to 1HKO Steelix. It does 47/93 with Iron Tail. Corsola actually outspeeds everything which is a first.
34 Corsola 2HKO's Golbat taking 13/93 from Bite. 1HKO's Magnemite while outspeeding, 2HKO's Sneasel taking 13/93 from Feint Attack and barely misses the 2HKO on Haunter, taking 16 from Shadow Ball. Meganium 1HKO's
37 Corsola can beat 1 Dragonair by 3HKoing Strength as it does 26/101 with Surf. Kingdra just barely lives a Mirror Coat, doing 68/101. If you let anything chip it you can beat it.
39 Corsola Surf 2HKO's Sneasel, who did 5/107 with Fury Cutter, 2HKO's Magneton who does 52/107 with Thundershock (if you mirror coat there seems to be a 50% chance of Thunderwave), 2HKO's Golbat who does 14/107 with Bite, Meganium 1HKO's with Razor Leaf. It 2HKO's Haunter and Kadabra, who Curse and Future Sight.
40 Corsola 3HKO's Xatus taking 47 and 53/109, 2HKO's Jynx taking 59/109. Mirror Coat does 90% to Slowbro who does 56/109 with Psychic. You can then Recover stall it. Mirror Coat 1HKO's Exeggutor, taking 70/109
40 Corsola takes 1HKO's Ariados with Mirror coat, taking 68/109 from Giga Drain. It 3HKO's Foretress who does 9/109 with Swift and 64/109 with Explosion. Surf 4HKO's Muk who does 9/109 with Sludge Bomb after 6 Hardens. Surf 3HKO's Venomoth who does 31/112 with Psychic. Crobat is 4HKO'd and does 15/109 with Wing Attack.
40 Corsola gets +6 on Hitmontop, taking 12/109 and 3HKoing with Surf, 3HKO's Hitmonlee taking 28/109 from Hi Jump Kick, 2HKO's Hitmonchan taking 31/112 from Thunder Punch, 1HKO's Onix, taking 16/109 from Earthquake 4HKO'd Machamp, taking 44/112 from Cross Chop but can't prevent the Hyper Potion so it's more like 8HKO. All damage are at +6 defense, just don't get crit :)
40 Corsola 6HKO's Umbreon taking 24/109 from Feint Attack, 3HKO's Gengar taking 8/109 from Lick and getting cursed, 2HKO's Murkrow taking 45/109 from Feint Attack, Vileplume 1HKO's, 2HKO's Houndoom taking 71/109 from Crunch (Corsola is slower than all)
40 Corsola 2HKO's Gyarados taking 41/109 from Surf, 2HKO's Dragonite taking 63/131 from Thunder, 3HKO's Blizzard Dragonite taking 30/131 from Twister, 3HKO's Charizard taking 16/109 from Wing Attack, 2HKO's Aerodactyl taking 56/109 from Rock Slide, 2HKO's 50 Dragonite taking 76/109 from Outrage and leaving a sliver of health left. It's slower than all
Good Matchups: Rivals 3+4, Pryce, Jasmine,
Ok Matchups: Rival 5, Morty, Clair, Koga*, Bruno, Lance
Bad Matchups: Chuck, Will, Karen
*Koga is good if you want to Rest Stall
I was really hoping there might be potential for Corsola to be C rank. I doubt many people have used it but with Recover, Harden and Mirror Coat. It being bad on routes by 2-3HKOing everything was somewhat offset by being in the fast leveling group and how easy routing is. It even outspeeds some things because of how low level a lot of Johto is. If it 1HKO'd Kingdra and Dragonite and couldn't be crit by Bruno I think it could be C rank, but as is I do think it deserves D rank unless E rank is going to be twice as big as D rank. It's noticably better than GS Stone evolutions, Yanma, Unown, some post-Blackthorn content, early game bugs and bad normals that I think it deserves to be above. STAB Surf was fine for routes east of Ecruteak and Rockets and Normal/Poison resists are great.
Ok Matchups: Rival 5, Morty, Clair, Koga*, Bruno, Lance
Bad Matchups: Chuck, Will, Karen
*Koga is good if you want to Rest Stall
I was really hoping there might be potential for Corsola to be C rank. I doubt many people have used it but with Recover, Harden and Mirror Coat. It being bad on routes by 2-3HKOing everything was somewhat offset by being in the fast leveling group and how easy routing is. It even outspeeds some things because of how low level a lot of Johto is. If it 1HKO'd Kingdra and Dragonite and couldn't be crit by Bruno I think it could be C rank, but as is I do think it deserves D rank unless E rank is going to be twice as big as D rank. It's noticably better than GS Stone evolutions, Yanma, Unown, some post-Blackthorn content, early game bugs and bad normals that I think it deserves to be above. STAB Surf was fine for routes east of Ecruteak and Rockets and Normal/Poison resists are great.
33 Jynx takes 23/98 from Sneasel who is a 3HKO and faster than you, Magnemite is a 2HKO and I let it attack twice to check damage but it only used Sonic Boom. Meganium is a 2HKO and does 37/98 with Body Slam Golbat and Haunter are 1HKOs. This means you lose without Lovely Kiss on Sneasel but you can beat and 4/5 100% of the time.
37 Jynx 3HKO's Kingdra, taking 98/109 from Hyper Beam. I'm not 100% sure but it seems like she won't use her Full Heal until after she's used her Hyper Beam, making Jynx a lot better than expected. I tried 4 times and she never used it first so just avoid Hyper Potion Range and it's not too unreliable.
38 Jynx 3HKO's Sneasel who does 11 with Fury Cutter and 38 with Quick Attack and 3HKO's Magneton who does 22/112 with Swift (I let him KO me and he did it only with Swift so idk how much Thundershock does, 1HKO's the rest
40 Jynx 1HKO's Exeggutor and both Xatu taking 23/119 from Quick Attack, 2HKO's Jynx taking 27/119 from 4 hit Doubleslap and 4HKO's Slowbro taking 113/119 from +3 Body Slam.
40 Jynx 2HKO's Ariados, 3HKO's Forretress who 1HKO's with Explosion, 2HKO's Venomoth who does 20/119 with Gust, 3HKO's Muk who does 96/119 with Sludge Bomb. and 1HKO's Crobat who is faster and does 68/119 with Wing Attack.
41 Jynx 2HKO's Hitmontop taking 35/121 from Dig, 2HKO's Hitmonchan taking 46/121 from Mach Punch, 1HKO's Onix, 3HKO's Machamp who 1HKO's with Ice Punch and 2HKO's Hitmonlee, taking 90/121 from Hi Jump Kick.
41 Jynx 4HKO's Umbreon taking 44/121 from Feint Attack, 1HKO's Gengar who seems to always Curse, 1HKO's Murkrow, 1HKO's Vileplume, 5HKO's Houndoom taking 127/121 from Flame Thrower. Jynx is slower than Houndoom and Gengar
42 Jynx 3HKO's Gyarados being 1HKO'd by Hyper Beam, 1HKO's all Dragonites, Charizard 1HKO's with Flamethrower, Aerodactyl 1HKO's with Rock Slide. It's slower than Aerodactyl and Charizard
37 Jynx 3HKO's Kingdra, taking 98/109 from Hyper Beam. I'm not 100% sure but it seems like she won't use her Full Heal until after she's used her Hyper Beam, making Jynx a lot better than expected. I tried 4 times and she never used it first so just avoid Hyper Potion Range and it's not too unreliable.
38 Jynx 3HKO's Sneasel who does 11 with Fury Cutter and 38 with Quick Attack and 3HKO's Magneton who does 22/112 with Swift (I let him KO me and he did it only with Swift so idk how much Thundershock does, 1HKO's the rest
40 Jynx 1HKO's Exeggutor and both Xatu taking 23/119 from Quick Attack, 2HKO's Jynx taking 27/119 from 4 hit Doubleslap and 4HKO's Slowbro taking 113/119 from +3 Body Slam.
40 Jynx 2HKO's Ariados, 3HKO's Forretress who 1HKO's with Explosion, 2HKO's Venomoth who does 20/119 with Gust, 3HKO's Muk who does 96/119 with Sludge Bomb. and 1HKO's Crobat who is faster and does 68/119 with Wing Attack.
41 Jynx 2HKO's Hitmontop taking 35/121 from Dig, 2HKO's Hitmonchan taking 46/121 from Mach Punch, 1HKO's Onix, 3HKO's Machamp who 1HKO's with Ice Punch and 2HKO's Hitmonlee, taking 90/121 from Hi Jump Kick.
41 Jynx 4HKO's Umbreon taking 44/121 from Feint Attack, 1HKO's Gengar who seems to always Curse, 1HKO's Murkrow, 1HKO's Vileplume, 5HKO's Houndoom taking 127/121 from Flame Thrower. Jynx is slower than Houndoom and Gengar
42 Jynx 3HKO's Gyarados being 1HKO'd by Hyper Beam, 1HKO's all Dragonites, Charizard 1HKO's with Flamethrower, Aerodactyl 1HKO's with Rock Slide. It's slower than Aerodactyl and Charizard
Good Matchups: Rivals, Clair, Will,
Ok Matchups: Koga, Bruno, Lance
Bad Matchups: Karen
It isn't hard to catch Jynx up to the rest of your team appearing right before Goldenrod Rockets. Learning that Clair won't Full Heal Kingdra before using a Hyper Potion and that it lives a Hyper Beam made Jynx a lot better than I expected. This and defeating Lance's Dragonites is good enough to be B to me. It doesn't dominate the end game, notably losing to Houndoom and Machamp which are two of the bigger threats in the Elite 4 so there's no way this could be A rank to me.
Ok Matchups: Koga, Bruno, Lance
Bad Matchups: Karen
It isn't hard to catch Jynx up to the rest of your team appearing right before Goldenrod Rockets. Learning that Clair won't Full Heal Kingdra before using a Hyper Potion and that it lives a Hyper Beam made Jynx a lot better than I expected. This and defeating Lance's Dragonites is good enough to be B to me. It doesn't dominate the end game, notably losing to Houndoom and Machamp which are two of the bigger threats in the Elite 4 so there's no way this could be A rank to me.
TLDR:
Pidgey->C
Pineco->D
Corsola->D
Jynx->B
Part 1 of my logs. My levels are a little bit iffy
Edit:
Some kind of memory corruption happened, and i've lost my save file... Rip, i have to restart again....
Sentret L9-10 @ Berry
Tackle has a roll to 3HKO Pidgey and levels up to level 10
Tackle 5HKOs Pidgeotto(close to 4HKOing)
Sentret is close to level 10 so i grinded a little bit just to see Tackle's roll; Tackle reliably 3HKOs Pidgey.
L11 Quick Attack would have made this matchup better, i forgot to wild grind all the way there to see it. I guess running 2 Medium Fast Pokemon at this part was slightly a bad idea
Rattata L10 @ Berry
Quick Attack 3HKOs Pidgey and 4HKOs Pidgeotto
Needs a Berry to survived hits from both birds. Level 11 could reliably 2HKO Pidgey? i forgot to test it.
Tackle has a roll to 3HKO Pidgey and levels up to level 10
Tackle 5HKOs Pidgeotto(close to 4HKOing)
Sentret is close to level 10 so i grinded a little bit just to see Tackle's roll; Tackle reliably 3HKOs Pidgey.
L11 Quick Attack would have made this matchup better, i forgot to wild grind all the way there to see it. I guess running 2 Medium Fast Pokemon at this part was slightly a bad idea
Rattata L10 @ Berry
Quick Attack 3HKOs Pidgey and 4HKOs Pidgeotto
Needs a Berry to survived hits from both birds. Level 11 could reliably 2HKO Pidgey? i forgot to test it.
Furret L15-16
Quick Attack 3HKOs the cocoons.
Quick Attack has a roll to 4HKO Scyther. Pink Bow would allow it to reliably 4HKO it but i didn't get it. Furrets tanks 3 Fury Cutters.
Bonus:
Swift 2HKOs the cocoons and 3HKOs Scyther.
Rattata L15 @ Berry
Hyper Fang 2HKOs the cocoons and 3HKOs Scyther.
It beats Scyther only if it didn't go for Fury Cutter on turn 1, and Rattata needs a Berry to survive a Quick Attack into 2 Fury Cutters, otherwise Rattata is KOed by 3 Fury Cutters even with a Berry. It took me 4 attempts to find the KO range of Hyper Fang against Scyther, the 3rd attempt was the Quick Attack into 2 Fury Cutter, but Hyper Fang missed...
Quick Attack 3HKOs the cocoons.
Quick Attack has a roll to 4HKO Scyther. Pink Bow would allow it to reliably 4HKO it but i didn't get it. Furrets tanks 3 Fury Cutters.
Bonus:
Swift 2HKOs the cocoons and 3HKOs Scyther.
Rattata L15 @ Berry
Hyper Fang 2HKOs the cocoons and 3HKOs Scyther.
It beats Scyther only if it didn't go for Fury Cutter on turn 1, and Rattata needs a Berry to survive a Quick Attack into 2 Fury Cutters, otherwise Rattata is KOed by 3 Fury Cutters even with a Berry. It took me 4 attempts to find the KO range of Hyper Fang against Scyther, the 3rd attempt was the Quick Attack into 2 Fury Cutter, but Hyper Fang missed...
Furret L16
Mud-Slap 2HKOs Gastly
Quick Attack 2HKOs Zubat.
Quick Attack 5HKOs Bayleef. It didn't go for Reflect. Bayleef 4HKOs back
Bonus:
Swift 2HKOs Zubat and 4HKOs Bayleef
I find Swift on Furret a waste because its a 1-used TM that only improves Scyther and starter matchups, and Headbutt TM is available after this.
Rattata L15-16 @ Berry
Mud-Slap 3HKOs Gastly
Hyper Fang 2HKOs Zubat
Hyper Fang 4HKOs Bayleef(super close to 3HKOing) or a total of 4HKO if it go for Poisonpowder and used Reflect on second turn or a total of 5HKO if it uses Reflect on turn 1. Bayleef 3HKOs back with Razor Leaf, or 2HKOs if you don't have a Berry. After a number of different attempts, it appears Bayleef likely going for Reflect if Rattata is level 16? It goes for Razor Leaf often if Rattata is at level 15.
Mud-Slap 2HKOs Gastly
Quick Attack 2HKOs Zubat.
Quick Attack 5HKOs Bayleef. It didn't go for Reflect. Bayleef 4HKOs back
Bonus:
Swift 2HKOs Zubat and 4HKOs Bayleef
I find Swift on Furret a waste because its a 1-used TM that only improves Scyther and starter matchups, and Headbutt TM is available after this.
Rattata L15-16 @ Berry
Mud-Slap 3HKOs Gastly
Hyper Fang 2HKOs Zubat
Hyper Fang 4HKOs Bayleef(super close to 3HKOing) or a total of 4HKO if it go for Poisonpowder and used Reflect on second turn or a total of 5HKO if it uses Reflect on turn 1. Bayleef 3HKOs back with Razor Leaf, or 2HKOs if you don't have a Berry. After a number of different attempts, it appears Bayleef likely going for Reflect if Rattata is level 16? It goes for Razor Leaf often if Rattata is at level 15.
Furret L16, Rattata L17, Heracross L16
Welp, i guess i need to fight all the trainers in the upper part because Heracross stole all the EXP in Route 34, underground, and gym trainers.
Furret L18
Headbutt 2HKOs Clefairy and 5HKOs Miltank
Raticate L20
Hyper Fang 2HKOs Clefairy. Raticate outspeeds Miltank and 3HKOs it with Hyper Fang. Miltank almost 2HKOs back with Stomp.
Great matchup, but its reliant on Rattata getting to level 20 at this point(you can reach it if you battled all the trainers before Whitney) and some luck on Miltank going for Rollout if Clefairy chips Raticate into a range of a Stomp 2HKO. Also, Hyper Fang can miss, my one attempt misses a Hyper Fang twice against Miltank. Headbutt misses out the 3HKO that Hyper Fang achieves against Miltank.
Heracross L18
Headbutt 2HKOs Clefairy and 5HKOs Miltank
Heracross has no Fight STAB at this point. It can used healing item + Endure to sponge Rollout's 4th and 5th hit (4th hit almost KOs Heracross at full health though)
I attempt to do a Fury Cutter sweep...
Clefairy uses Metronome and gets a Wing Attack. Welp, reset.
Fury Cutter 3HKOs Clefairy and... the 4th hit missed against Miltank... reset
4th hit of Fury Cutter 2HKOs Miltank.
This needs some luck involving not missing a Fury Cutter, not getting flinched by Stomp or getting Attracted if you're male(fortunately, the Heracross i'm using is a female)
Welp, i guess i need to fight all the trainers in the upper part because Heracross stole all the EXP in Route 34, underground, and gym trainers.
Furret L18
Headbutt 2HKOs Clefairy and 5HKOs Miltank
Raticate L20
Hyper Fang 2HKOs Clefairy. Raticate outspeeds Miltank and 3HKOs it with Hyper Fang. Miltank almost 2HKOs back with Stomp.
Great matchup, but its reliant on Rattata getting to level 20 at this point(you can reach it if you battled all the trainers before Whitney) and some luck on Miltank going for Rollout if Clefairy chips Raticate into a range of a Stomp 2HKO. Also, Hyper Fang can miss, my one attempt misses a Hyper Fang twice against Miltank. Headbutt misses out the 3HKO that Hyper Fang achieves against Miltank.
Heracross L18
Headbutt 2HKOs Clefairy and 5HKOs Miltank
Heracross has no Fight STAB at this point. It can used healing item + Endure to sponge Rollout's 4th and 5th hit (4th hit almost KOs Heracross at full health though)
I attempt to do a Fury Cutter sweep...
Clefairy uses Metronome and gets a Wing Attack. Welp, reset.
Fury Cutter 3HKOs Clefairy and... the 4th hit missed against Miltank... reset
4th hit of Fury Cutter 2HKOs Miltank.
This needs some luck involving not missing a Fury Cutter, not getting flinched by Stomp or getting Attracted if you're male(fortunately, the Heracross i'm using is a female)
Fought all the trainers in the west and in Route 42 after I grab Shellder and Water Stone.
Furret L22
Dig 2HKOs Haunter after it uses Curse
Dig 1HKOs Magnemite
Headbutt 2HKOs Zubat(Pink Bow could 1HKO it?) and 3HKOs Bayleef
Raticate L22
Dig 2HKOs Haunter
Dig 1HKOs Magnemite
Hyper Fang 1HKOs Zubat and 3HKOs Bayleef
Heracross L22
Without a miss,Fury Cutter 4HKOs Haunter after it uses Curse
Rock Smash 2HKOs Magnemite
Headbutt 2HKOs Zubat and 3HKOs Bayleef
Apparently, it can't learn Dig until the next gen, Heracross struggles so hard against Haunter, but see what Heracross can do against Morty
Cloyster L22
Surf KOs Haunter after it uses Curse
Surf 1HKOs Magnemite
Aurora Beam 1HKOs Zubat and 2HKOs Bayleef. Cloyster tanks a Razor Leaf at full health with 10/54 HP left, but it gets KOed if Haunter's Curse is still in effect. Bayleef sometimes went for Poisonpowder or Reflect instead.
I didn't bother testing it as a Shellder, because i don't think 45 SpA/40 Spe is going to help, it really needs that Water Stone so much.
Furret L22
Dig 2HKOs Haunter after it uses Curse
Dig 1HKOs Magnemite
Headbutt 2HKOs Zubat(Pink Bow could 1HKO it?) and 3HKOs Bayleef
Raticate L22
Dig 2HKOs Haunter
Dig 1HKOs Magnemite
Hyper Fang 1HKOs Zubat and 3HKOs Bayleef
Heracross L22
Without a miss,Fury Cutter 4HKOs Haunter after it uses Curse
Rock Smash 2HKOs Magnemite
Headbutt 2HKOs Zubat and 3HKOs Bayleef
Apparently, it can't learn Dig until the next gen, Heracross struggles so hard against Haunter, but see what Heracross can do against Morty
Cloyster L22
Surf KOs Haunter after it uses Curse
Surf 1HKOs Magnemite
Aurora Beam 1HKOs Zubat and 2HKOs Bayleef. Cloyster tanks a Razor Leaf at full health with 10/54 HP left, but it gets KOed if Haunter's Curse is still in effect. Bayleef sometimes went for Poisonpowder or Reflect instead.
I didn't bother testing it as a Shellder, because i don't think 45 SpA/40 Spe is going to help, it really needs that Water Stone so much.
Furret L23
Dig 1HKOs Gastly, 2HKOs both Haunters(the first one is so close to 1HKOing) and Gengar.
Level 24 Furret can reliably 1HKO the first Haunter.
Raticate L23
Dig 1HKOs Gastly, 2HKOs both Haunters(the first one is so close to 1HKOing) and Gengar. Raticate speed ties with Gengar.
Level 24 Raticate can reliably 1HKO the first Haunter as well as outspeeding Gengar.
Heracross L22
This matchup is so horrendous because Heracross' only move to damage Gastly is a 10BP Fury Cutter, whose first hit deals like 1 damage due to them quad resisting it and sweeping is difficult between Curse and Lick paralysis/Hypnosis. Lick/Night Shade can actually hurt Heracross unlike Normals. I don't see this matchup better than an F-Tier.
Cloyster L23
Surf 1HKOs Gastly, KOs the first Haunter after it uses Curse, 2HKOs second Haunter, and 3HKOs Gengar.
Dig 1HKOs Gastly, 2HKOs both Haunters(the first one is so close to 1HKOing) and Gengar.
Level 24 Furret can reliably 1HKO the first Haunter.
Raticate L23
Dig 1HKOs Gastly, 2HKOs both Haunters(the first one is so close to 1HKOing) and Gengar. Raticate speed ties with Gengar.
Level 24 Raticate can reliably 1HKO the first Haunter as well as outspeeding Gengar.
Heracross L22
This matchup is so horrendous because Heracross' only move to damage Gastly is a 10BP Fury Cutter, whose first hit deals like 1 damage due to them quad resisting it and sweeping is difficult between Curse and Lick paralysis/Hypnosis. Lick/Night Shade can actually hurt Heracross unlike Normals. I don't see this matchup better than an F-Tier.
Cloyster L23
Surf 1HKOs Gastly, KOs the first Haunter after it uses Curse, 2HKOs second Haunter, and 3HKOs Gengar.
Furret L29
Headbutt 2HKOs Primeape and 4HKOs Poliwrath(close to 3HKOing) Furret appears to have a chance to survived a dynamicpunch at full health.
3/99, 11/99, 2/99, 0/99 HPs left from each hit.
Return 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs Poliwrath.
Raticate L29
Hyper Fang 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs Poliwrath. Poliwrath 1HKOs back.
Return 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs Poliwrath.
Heracross L29
Headbutt 2HKOs Primeape and 4HKOs Poliwrath.
Return 2HKOs Primeape and 4HKOs Poliwrath
Cloyster L29
Surf 2HKOs Primeape. Cloyster tanks 2 Karate Chops
Return 6HKOs Poliwrath or Swift 5HKOs Poliwrath or Surf 6HKOs Poliwrath. Poliwrath 2HKOs back with Dynamicpunch or 3HKOs back with Surf.
Cloyster struggles a lot against Poliwrath. Its Normal moves it can learn is Return/Swift or a weak Tackle.
Headbutt 2HKOs Primeape and 4HKOs Poliwrath(close to 3HKOing) Furret appears to have a chance to survived a dynamicpunch at full health.
3/99, 11/99, 2/99, 0/99 HPs left from each hit.
Return 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs Poliwrath.
Raticate L29
Hyper Fang 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs Poliwrath. Poliwrath 1HKOs back.
Return 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs Poliwrath.
Heracross L29
Headbutt 2HKOs Primeape and 4HKOs Poliwrath.
Return 2HKOs Primeape and 4HKOs Poliwrath
Cloyster L29
Surf 2HKOs Primeape. Cloyster tanks 2 Karate Chops
Return 6HKOs Poliwrath or Swift 5HKOs Poliwrath or Surf 6HKOs Poliwrath. Poliwrath 2HKOs back with Dynamicpunch or 3HKOs back with Surf.
Cloyster struggles a lot against Poliwrath. Its Normal moves it can learn is Return/Swift or a weak Tackle.
Furret L29
Dig 1HKOs Magnemite
Surf 3HKOs Magnemite and Steelix. Both 2HKOs back.
Surf is its best way to hit Steelix but its weak against Magnemite.
Raticate L29
Dig 1HKOs Magnemite and seems an 8HKO on Steelix. Steelix 2HKOs back.
Raticate couldn't bypass Steelix's ridiculous Defense.
Heracross L29
Heracross' Fight STAB at this point is a 20BP Rock Smash...
Rock Smash 2HKOs Magnemite. Magnemite almost 2HKOs back.
Heracross can tank Steelix's Iron Tail and 1HKO back with Counter. But this is unreliable as Steelix often goes for Screech (especially in 2nd attempt onwards), which puts Heracross into 1HKO range.
Cloyster L29
Mystic Water Surf has a roll to 1HKO Magnemite and 2HKOs Steelix (3HKOs if Sunny Day is up)
Level 30 Cloyster reliably 1HKOs Magnemite with MysticWater Surf
Dig 1HKOs Magnemite
Surf 3HKOs Magnemite and Steelix. Both 2HKOs back.
Surf is its best way to hit Steelix but its weak against Magnemite.
Raticate L29
Dig 1HKOs Magnemite and seems an 8HKO on Steelix. Steelix 2HKOs back.
Raticate couldn't bypass Steelix's ridiculous Defense.
Heracross L29
Heracross' Fight STAB at this point is a 20BP Rock Smash...
Rock Smash 2HKOs Magnemite. Magnemite almost 2HKOs back.
Heracross can tank Steelix's Iron Tail and 1HKO back with Counter. But this is unreliable as Steelix often goes for Screech (especially in 2nd attempt onwards), which puts Heracross into 1HKO range.
Cloyster L29
Mystic Water Surf has a roll to 1HKO Magnemite and 2HKOs Steelix (3HKOs if Sunny Day is up)
Level 30 Cloyster reliably 1HKOs Magnemite with MysticWater Surf
Furret L30
Return 2HKOs Seel and 3HKOs Dewgong and Piloswine
Level 31 Furret can 2HKO Dewgong
Raticate L30
Return 2HKOs Seel and 3HKOs Dewgong and Piloswine
Level 31 Raticate can 2HKO Dewgong
Heracross L30
Return 2HKOs Seel and 3HKOs Dewgong and Piloswine
Cloyster L30
Return 3HKOs Seel and 4HKOs Dewgong.
Mysticwater Surf 1HKOs Piloswine.
Cloyster's low special bulk is carried by quad-resisting Ice in this matchup like Dewgong's Aurora Beam does 7. Its still has issue against Dewgong due to Rest stall.
Return 2HKOs Seel and 3HKOs Dewgong and Piloswine
Level 31 Furret can 2HKO Dewgong
Raticate L30
Return 2HKOs Seel and 3HKOs Dewgong and Piloswine
Level 31 Raticate can 2HKO Dewgong
Heracross L30
Return 2HKOs Seel and 3HKOs Dewgong and Piloswine
Cloyster L30
Return 3HKOs Seel and 4HKOs Dewgong.
Mysticwater Surf 1HKOs Piloswine.
Cloyster's low special bulk is carried by quad-resisting Ice in this matchup like Dewgong's Aurora Beam does 7. Its still has issue against Dewgong due to Rest stall.
Furret L32-33
Return 2HKOs Golbat and Sneasel, and 3HKOs Meganium ( 4HKOs if it uses Reflect turn 1)
Dig 1HKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Haunter
Raticate L33
Return 2HKOs Golbat.
Dig 2HKOs Haunter and 1HKOs Magnemite
Return is a total of 5HKO from Meganium after it uses Reflect turn 1(Level 34 Raticate 4HKOs total)
Heracross L32-33
Return has a roll to 2HKO Golbat(Level 33 reliably 2HKOs). Heracross survives a Wing Attack
Rock Smash 2HKOs Sneasel(Level 33 1HKOs) and Magnemite
Return 4HKOs Meganium
Heracross now gets a coverage against Haunter and its... a 40 BP Thief coming from 40 SpA. It 4HKOs Haunter total or a 2HKO if it uses Curse.
Cloyster L32-33
Aurora Beam 2HKOs Golbat and Meganium.
MysticWater Surf 1HKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Golbat, Haunter and Sneasel.
Cloyster can only outsped Meganium at Level 33. Aurora Beam puts Golbat into red HP range, but its not enough for 1HKOing. I am curious how STAB Aurora Beam fares with Clair and possibly Lance's Dragonite but...
Return 2HKOs Golbat and Sneasel, and 3HKOs Meganium ( 4HKOs if it uses Reflect turn 1)
Dig 1HKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Haunter
Raticate L33
Return 2HKOs Golbat.
Dig 2HKOs Haunter and 1HKOs Magnemite
Return is a total of 5HKO from Meganium after it uses Reflect turn 1(Level 34 Raticate 4HKOs total)
Heracross L32-33
Return has a roll to 2HKO Golbat(Level 33 reliably 2HKOs). Heracross survives a Wing Attack
Rock Smash 2HKOs Sneasel(Level 33 1HKOs) and Magnemite
Return 4HKOs Meganium
Heracross now gets a coverage against Haunter and its... a 40 BP Thief coming from 40 SpA. It 4HKOs Haunter total or a 2HKO if it uses Curse.
Cloyster L32-33
Aurora Beam 2HKOs Golbat and Meganium.
MysticWater Surf 1HKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Golbat, Haunter and Sneasel.
Cloyster can only outsped Meganium at Level 33. Aurora Beam puts Golbat into red HP range, but its not enough for 1HKOing. I am curious how STAB Aurora Beam fares with Clair and possibly Lance's Dragonite but...
Last edited:
Decided to get a bit more involved with GSC while I don't have much to run with in USUM for my own list.
My team for this run was originally Spearow / Mareep / Machamp (Muscle) / Tentacruel. However, I decided to add Mantine as well, as Machamp made my team a 3-mon team in terms of exp. I had to grind on wild Pokemon a bit for Clair, grinding 4 levels on Machamp and 1-2 levels on the rest, but other than that, everything is Trainer exp. I also gave a few Rare Candies to Mantine in the end-game so I wouldn't have to grind it.
Spearow test assumes catching a wild one and not Kenya. Which I find better can be found in my thoughts later on in the post. Tentacruel assumes that you catch it at Route 41, because I have enough experience with Tentacool in other games to know that it'd be utter garbage if I got it earlier.
Logs for each Pokemon below:
here are my thoughts:
Spearow
Can't say I felt any S-tier potential for it and I wouldn't agree with S-tier at all (although in Drums's defense, he only said he could see it, he made it clear that A is good for it too). My Fearow hit slightly weaker than Drums's Fearow, most notably missing the 3HKO on Miltank with PB Return (and my Attack IV was 9. Tried to keep it somewhat balanced) and then dying to Rollout. Jasmine matchup wasn't ideal, though Pryce has his Seel and Dewgong defeated easily. Chuck is a bit of a luck matchup, as you cannot 2HKO his Poliwrath, which gives him some chance to hax you like crazy. Its E4 performance was fine, for most parts, it could 2HKO a good amount of Pokemon per each E4 member, though you aren't sweeping any of them without luck. I would be much more comfortable with A-tier than S-tier.
As for regular vs Kenya, honestly, it depends a lot on your preferences. Spearow is good for Falkner and Bugsy and can be valuable against Silver in Azalea if you picked Totodile, while also getting a much more powerful Return right off the bat. Kenya does have the advantage of traded experience (not sure if its IVs are fixed, I know its gender is random, so I assume the Attack IV isn't fixed), but you skip some important matchups otherwise. So yeah, just use the one that you want, if you are already covered for the first fights, you might as well use Kenya, given that Fearow doesn't seem likely to beat Miltank anyways (though Leer support would be nice, I guess).
Mareep
Between GS and HGSS, I think Mareep has its better performance in GS. While it coming after Falkner kind of sucks (though maybe not, because Mud-Slap), getting access to Fire Punch and a special Thunder Punch means that it's got more under its belt here. Anyways, enough with the comparison, one of the line's strongest points is how easy it is train due to Med Slow growth rate, to the point that I barely felt the pre-Thundershock period. Once you get past Morty, you typically have great matchups, beating Gyms 5-7 with no problems. And that is without using Thunderdance whatsoever. I wish I hadn't forgotten to use it on Kingdra, though its E4 performance was rather nice. It could get past most of Will and Koga and was very useful for Lance, OHKOing all of the non-Dragonites (though you need to heal). Bruno wasn't a great matchup and Karen was kind of average.
As for rank, B / A, personally, I think the case for A here is stronger than the one in HGSS. Not to mention that Thunder Wave early on can be incredibly useful for aces like Miltank and Gengar (especially on Miltank where you can flinch it with your own Headbutt, if you like to rely on RNG), though it does have moments of mediocrity. I kind of wish I had used Thunderdance for Koga, though Thunder is a luxury elsewhere. As a whole, its strongest points are early arrival, Med Slow growth rate, tons of good matchups, and Thunder Wave support early on.
Machamp
My thoughts on Machamp constantly fluctuated between matchups. At first, Machop had no problems sweeping Whitney (and is probably the best Pokemon for this job) and traded experience + Med Slow growth rate meant that I essentially had an extra team slot when it came to experience. Then I started to feel as if Machamp couldn't sweep anything reliably, being luck-reliant against Poliwrath, relying on Iron Tail misses against Jasmine, and relying on Blizzard misses against Pryce. It can beat the three Dragonair without healing if it gets lucky enough. Its E4 performance was a bit mixed, it's awful for Will, but is ok for Koga and Bruno. Its best trait at the E4 is that it's the best Pokemon you could use on Karen's Umbreon, as Vital Throw ignores the accuracy check, so you can consistently take on that one Pokemon (you can also kill Houndoom from full).
In terms of rank, B / A. I think A is still possible due to its unique traits and ease of training. While it does have 3 IVs in Attack, I don't think that was the main culprit behind my concerns (moreso the Speed, imo). As a whole, it can do some things that nothing else can do, but it has some pretty glaring weaknesses
Mantine
I think this is a solid C-tier. Mantine, as a whole, relies mostly on Surf spam and it's ok at that. Its biggest issues, other than coming after four badges, are its Slow growth rate, which makes it pretty bad when it comes to grinding, and its relatively poor movepool, as it doesn't have a way of getting past Water resists (it can strike Grass-types with Icy Wind, though). Wing Attack comes too late and isn't particularly useful for the E4. There isn't much I can say that is not in the logs, it's a good Surf Pokemon, but you certainly have a lot of better options if you are looking for a Water-type. It's useful, but I cannot imagine something higher than C on that thing. Blizzard reliancy was also a bit of a turn off for me
Tentacruel
Personally, leaning towards C on this as well, with a small possibility of B. Tentacruel is mostly a better Mantine due to Sludge Bomb STAB, allowing it to deal better with Water resists. Slow growth rate, likewise, doesn't help it at all, along with Cruel coming after four badges, unless you are deranged enough to actually use the nightmare called early Tentacool. Barrier also helped it a bit at the E4, allowing it to sweep Bruno with at best one healing. Just like Mantine, Tentacruel was fairly reliant on Blizzard to get some KOs, though it could take on Lance if lucky, as it could outspeed all the Dragonites and hit them with Blizzard, should it hit at all, of course.
Some of the things I used here will definitely need more testing, particularly Machamp / Tentacruel / Mareep. Spearow and Mantine, I am relatively confident in them, though it wouldn't hurt if someone else wanted to try them, if they cannot think of anything better to use.
I am planning on using Gengar (used it casually, found it great), Gyarados, and Espeon (which I am unlikely to nominte to higher than C due to having to evolve it by level 16) for a next run. Will most likely use Graveler too to keep my experience somewhat balanced. Expect logs relatively soon-ish, as GSC on emulator is incredibly easy to run, especially since we don't have to test Team Rocket whatsoever.
e: yeah, actually, nvm, Espeon isn't getting Confusion, as it comes at level 20, I confused the join level with HGSS, I am gonna have tons of fun with that.
My team for this run was originally Spearow / Mareep / Machamp (Muscle) / Tentacruel. However, I decided to add Mantine as well, as Machamp made my team a 3-mon team in terms of exp. I had to grind on wild Pokemon a bit for Clair, grinding 4 levels on Machamp and 1-2 levels on the rest, but other than that, everything is Trainer exp. I also gave a few Rare Candies to Mantine in the end-game so I wouldn't have to grind it.
Spearow test assumes catching a wild one and not Kenya. Which I find better can be found in my thoughts later on in the post. Tentacruel assumes that you catch it at Route 41, because I have enough experience with Tentacool in other games to know that it'd be utter garbage if I got it earlier.
Logs for each Pokemon below:
Falkner(12): Peck 3HKOs Pidgey, which 7HKOs in return. Peck after leer 3HKOs Pigeotto, with Pidgeotto 4HKOing after taking damage from Pidgey. As long as you don't get critted, matchup is good
Bugsy(17): Peck spam wins, Scyther is 3HKOed, can't do much in return
Silver(17): Peck 3HKOs Bayleef, only watch out for Reflect and Growl. The rest are beaten with no problems.
Whitney(20): Return 2HKOs Clefairy and 4HKOs Miltank. Miltank 3HKOs with Rollout, unfortunately, so you need to bet on Rollout misses to sweep
Silver(22): beats Haunter and Zubat easily. Bayleef is 2-3HKOed (seems like a roll, not sure) with Peck, only watch out for Reflect/Growl
Morty(25): Outspeeds everything. Sharp Beak Peck OHKOs Gastly, 2HKOs Haunter, and 3HKOs Gengar. A sweep is possible if you don't get hit by Hypnosis, but even if you don't sweep, you still take out most of his team rather effortlessly, so great matchup
Chuck(30): Pink Bow Return 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs Poliwrath. Poliwrath 2HKOs with Dynamic Punch. Needs some luck for a sweep, but not too bad of a matchup
Jasmine(31): no
Pryce(31): PB Return OHKOs Seel and 2HKOs Dewgong. Avoid Piloswine, which OHKOs with Blizzard
Silver(33): PB Return 2HKOs Sneasel and Golbat and 3HKOs Meganium (Fly can be used if you like dealing with Reflect). Fly puts Haunter in red, assuming no Reflect.
Clair(38): PB Return puts Dragonair in red, which then proceeds to paralyze you. Don't see it taking out more than two. Kingdra is 3HKOed, but 2HKOs with Surf
Silver(40): Drill Peck 2HKOs Meganium, putting it in red, and OHKOs Haunter. PB Return 2HKOs Golbat and OHKOs the rest, bar Magneton, which you want to avoid.
Will(41): PB Return OHKOs Jynx, 2HKOs Xatu, and 3HKOs Slowbro. Exeggutor is 2HKOed by Drill Peck. Psychic hits you pretty hard, so you are most likely taking out three mons at best, which are most likely gonna be Xatu #1, Jynx, and Exeggutor. Also, Xtu #1 can confuse you.
Koga(41): Drill Peck OHKOs Ariados and Venomoth and can muscle through Forry if it doesn't explode on you. Muk and Crobat are 2HKOed by PB Return, but watch out for evasion.
Bruno(41): Drill Peck with Sharp Beak 2HKOs Machamp and OHKOs the Hitmons. You outspeed all and you can live one Rock Slide. Great matchup
Karen(42): Drill Peck 2HKOs Vileplume, putting it in red, and Gengar, which Curses on you. PB Return 3HKOs Umbreon, OHKOs Houndoom with a crit, and OHKOs Murkrow. You outspeed all of them. If you skip Gengar, you are going to be doing relatively ok here.
Bugsy(17): Peck spam wins, Scyther is 3HKOed, can't do much in return
Silver(17): Peck 3HKOs Bayleef, only watch out for Reflect and Growl. The rest are beaten with no problems.
Whitney(20): Return 2HKOs Clefairy and 4HKOs Miltank. Miltank 3HKOs with Rollout, unfortunately, so you need to bet on Rollout misses to sweep
Silver(22): beats Haunter and Zubat easily. Bayleef is 2-3HKOed (seems like a roll, not sure) with Peck, only watch out for Reflect/Growl
Morty(25): Outspeeds everything. Sharp Beak Peck OHKOs Gastly, 2HKOs Haunter, and 3HKOs Gengar. A sweep is possible if you don't get hit by Hypnosis, but even if you don't sweep, you still take out most of his team rather effortlessly, so great matchup
Chuck(30): Pink Bow Return 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs Poliwrath. Poliwrath 2HKOs with Dynamic Punch. Needs some luck for a sweep, but not too bad of a matchup
Jasmine(31): no
Pryce(31): PB Return OHKOs Seel and 2HKOs Dewgong. Avoid Piloswine, which OHKOs with Blizzard
Silver(33): PB Return 2HKOs Sneasel and Golbat and 3HKOs Meganium (Fly can be used if you like dealing with Reflect). Fly puts Haunter in red, assuming no Reflect.
Clair(38): PB Return puts Dragonair in red, which then proceeds to paralyze you. Don't see it taking out more than two. Kingdra is 3HKOed, but 2HKOs with Surf
Silver(40): Drill Peck 2HKOs Meganium, putting it in red, and OHKOs Haunter. PB Return 2HKOs Golbat and OHKOs the rest, bar Magneton, which you want to avoid.
Will(41): PB Return OHKOs Jynx, 2HKOs Xatu, and 3HKOs Slowbro. Exeggutor is 2HKOed by Drill Peck. Psychic hits you pretty hard, so you are most likely taking out three mons at best, which are most likely gonna be Xatu #1, Jynx, and Exeggutor. Also, Xtu #1 can confuse you.
Koga(41): Drill Peck OHKOs Ariados and Venomoth and can muscle through Forry if it doesn't explode on you. Muk and Crobat are 2HKOed by PB Return, but watch out for evasion.
Bruno(41): Drill Peck with Sharp Beak 2HKOs Machamp and OHKOs the Hitmons. You outspeed all and you can live one Rock Slide. Great matchup
Karen(42): Drill Peck 2HKOs Vileplume, putting it in red, and Gengar, which Curses on you. PB Return 3HKOs Umbreon, OHKOs Houndoom with a crit, and OHKOs Murkrow. You outspeed all of them. If you skip Gengar, you are going to be doing relatively ok here.
Bugsy(16): Thundershock 3HKOs Scyther, which 4HKOs with Fury Cutter.
Silver(17): beats everything but Bayleef
Whitney(20): Headbutt 3HKOs Clefairy. It's unlikely to beat Miltank, though Thunder Wave + Headbutt can greatly weaken it if you get lucky enough
Silver(22): beats Zubat reliably. Magnemite takes some time, Haunter Curses you, Bayleef is no
Morty(25): Thundershock generally 3HKOs at best and you get outsped and haxed a lot. Luck matchup
Chuck(30): Magnet Thunder Punch 2HKOs both, with Poliwrath being outsped. Outside of typical Poliwrath hax, you have no issues here
Jasmine(30): Charcoal Fire Punch 2HKOs Steelix and OHKOs Magnemite, easy sweep
Pryce(31): Fire Punch 2HKOs Piloswine and Thunder Punch covers the Seel line, easy sweep
Silver(32): Thunder Punch OHKOs Golbat and 2HKOs Haunter. Charcoal Fire Punch OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs the rest. You will likely need to heal to sweep, but you take out 4/5 of his team without healing anyways
Clair(38): forgot to try this, rip. I don't think you could do much beyond assist against Kingdra, which may just Smokescreen you anyways
Silver(40): Charcoal Fire Punch OHKOs Sneasel and Magneton and 2HKOs Meganium. Thunder Punch OHKOs Golbat and 2HKOs the rest. You can sweep without healing, but this depends a bit on luck.
Will(41): Thunder Punch OHKOs Xatu and 2HKOs Slowbro, while Charcoal Fire Punch 2HKOs Jynx and Exeggutor. Jynx is to be avoided, as it's faster and can put you to sleep (Psychic is, iirc, a 3HKO). Prepare for some confusion as well
Koga(41): Charcoal Fire Punch OHKOs Forry and 2HKOs the other bugs.Thunder Punch 2HKOs Crobat and 3HKOs Muk. Muk can get out of hand with Minimize, though, unless you resort to ThunderDance strats
Bruno(41): not good. You don't 2HKO anything with Thunder Punch, so expect to be taken down pretty easily.
Karen(41): beats Vileplume and Murkrow. Gengar as well if you don't mind Curse
Lance(42): Magnet Thunder Punch OHKOs the non-Dragonites. You will need to heal to beat all three of them, but that's impressive, even then
Silver(17): beats everything but Bayleef
Whitney(20): Headbutt 3HKOs Clefairy. It's unlikely to beat Miltank, though Thunder Wave + Headbutt can greatly weaken it if you get lucky enough
Silver(22): beats Zubat reliably. Magnemite takes some time, Haunter Curses you, Bayleef is no
Morty(25): Thundershock generally 3HKOs at best and you get outsped and haxed a lot. Luck matchup
Chuck(30): Magnet Thunder Punch 2HKOs both, with Poliwrath being outsped. Outside of typical Poliwrath hax, you have no issues here
Jasmine(30): Charcoal Fire Punch 2HKOs Steelix and OHKOs Magnemite, easy sweep
Pryce(31): Fire Punch 2HKOs Piloswine and Thunder Punch covers the Seel line, easy sweep
Silver(32): Thunder Punch OHKOs Golbat and 2HKOs Haunter. Charcoal Fire Punch OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs the rest. You will likely need to heal to sweep, but you take out 4/5 of his team without healing anyways
Clair(38): forgot to try this, rip. I don't think you could do much beyond assist against Kingdra, which may just Smokescreen you anyways
Silver(40): Charcoal Fire Punch OHKOs Sneasel and Magneton and 2HKOs Meganium. Thunder Punch OHKOs Golbat and 2HKOs the rest. You can sweep without healing, but this depends a bit on luck.
Will(41): Thunder Punch OHKOs Xatu and 2HKOs Slowbro, while Charcoal Fire Punch 2HKOs Jynx and Exeggutor. Jynx is to be avoided, as it's faster and can put you to sleep (Psychic is, iirc, a 3HKO). Prepare for some confusion as well
Koga(41): Charcoal Fire Punch OHKOs Forry and 2HKOs the other bugs.Thunder Punch 2HKOs Crobat and 3HKOs Muk. Muk can get out of hand with Minimize, though, unless you resort to ThunderDance strats
Bruno(41): not good. You don't 2HKO anything with Thunder Punch, so expect to be taken down pretty easily.
Karen(41): beats Vileplume and Murkrow. Gengar as well if you don't mind Curse
Lance(42): Magnet Thunder Punch OHKOs the non-Dragonites. You will need to heal to beat all three of them, but that's impressive, even then
Whitney(21): outspeeds and OHKOs Clefairy with Karate Chop. Miltank is 3HKOed. Miltank is faster, but it refuses to go for Stomp and strictly goes for Rollout, for whatever reason. Easy sweep.
Silver(25): beats Haunter and Magnemite with Dig. Zubat is outsped and 2HKOed with Headbutt
Morty(25): Dig OHKOs Gastly and Haunter #1 and almost OHKOs Haunter #2. Gengar is 2HKOed. You won't sweep, but you can beat most of his team if you don't get put to sleep
Chuck(30): Karate Chop 2HKOs Primeape and seems to 3HKO Poliwrath. Both outspeed you. Poliwrath 2HKOs with Dynamic Punch after Primeape's Leer, so you are unlikely to sweep, unless it doesn't go for Mind Reader and constantly misses with DPunch
Jasmine(30): beats Magnemite easily, but Steelix beats it. Iron Tail 2HKOs, while Fighting STAB only 3HKOs
Pryce(31): Black Belt Karate Chop 2HKOs everything. Piloswine may cause slight issues with Blizzard, but outside of that, Machamp wins here easily
Silver(33): Karate Chop OHKOs Sneasel and Magnemite. Dig covers Haunter. Meganium can be beaten if you land critical hits, while Golbat is mostly a bad matchup
Clair(38): BBelt Vital Throw 2HKOs Dragonair. You come close to beating three Dragonair without healing whatsoever. Kingdra 3HKOs with Surf itself, though if you are healthy and it goes for Smokescreen, you beat it.
Silver(40): avoid Golbat. EQ OHKOs Kadabra, Magneton, and Haunter, though only Magneton is outsped. Karate Chop OHKOs Sneasel and Black Belt Vital Throw 2HKOs Meganium if it doesnt' go for Reflect.
Will(40): didn't bother, has to be obvious why
Koga(40): EQ 2HKOs Ariados, Muk, and Venomoth, though Moth 3HKOs with Psychic. Forry can be muscled through. Crobat is a hopeless matchup
Bruno(41): EQ OHKOs Hitmontop while Digging (and Top is faster). BBelt Vital Throw OHKOs Hitmonlee on rolls. Hitmonchan is a strict 2HKO. If you don't get too unlucky, you can beat the Hitmons in one go. Onx can also be beaten if you are healthy enough to live two EQs
Karen(41): BBelt Vital Throw 2HKOs Umbreon and OHKOs Houndoom. EQ also OHKOs Gengar, though it Curses, so you want to switch out against Murkrow, which you cannot OHKO.
Silver(25): beats Haunter and Magnemite with Dig. Zubat is outsped and 2HKOed with Headbutt
Morty(25): Dig OHKOs Gastly and Haunter #1 and almost OHKOs Haunter #2. Gengar is 2HKOed. You won't sweep, but you can beat most of his team if you don't get put to sleep
Chuck(30): Karate Chop 2HKOs Primeape and seems to 3HKO Poliwrath. Both outspeed you. Poliwrath 2HKOs with Dynamic Punch after Primeape's Leer, so you are unlikely to sweep, unless it doesn't go for Mind Reader and constantly misses with DPunch
Jasmine(30): beats Magnemite easily, but Steelix beats it. Iron Tail 2HKOs, while Fighting STAB only 3HKOs
Pryce(31): Black Belt Karate Chop 2HKOs everything. Piloswine may cause slight issues with Blizzard, but outside of that, Machamp wins here easily
Silver(33): Karate Chop OHKOs Sneasel and Magnemite. Dig covers Haunter. Meganium can be beaten if you land critical hits, while Golbat is mostly a bad matchup
Clair(38): BBelt Vital Throw 2HKOs Dragonair. You come close to beating three Dragonair without healing whatsoever. Kingdra 3HKOs with Surf itself, though if you are healthy and it goes for Smokescreen, you beat it.
Silver(40): avoid Golbat. EQ OHKOs Kadabra, Magneton, and Haunter, though only Magneton is outsped. Karate Chop OHKOs Sneasel and Black Belt Vital Throw 2HKOs Meganium if it doesnt' go for Reflect.
Will(40): didn't bother, has to be obvious why
Koga(40): EQ 2HKOs Ariados, Muk, and Venomoth, though Moth 3HKOs with Psychic. Forry can be muscled through. Crobat is a hopeless matchup
Bruno(41): EQ OHKOs Hitmontop while Digging (and Top is faster). BBelt Vital Throw OHKOs Hitmonlee on rolls. Hitmonchan is a strict 2HKO. If you don't get too unlucky, you can beat the Hitmons in one go. Onx can also be beaten if you are healthy enough to live two EQs
Karen(41): BBelt Vital Throw 2HKOs Umbreon and OHKOs Houndoom. EQ also OHKOs Gengar, though it Curses, so you want to switch out against Murkrow, which you cannot OHKO.
Chuck(30): Poison Barb Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs Poliwrath. Matchup is only bad if you get very unlucky against Poliwrath, but, in general, it shouldn't have much difficulty here
Jasmine(30): MW Surf almost OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Steelix. Avoid Magnemite
Pryce(31): PBarb Sludge Bomb 2HKOs and 3HKOs Seel and Dewgong, while Surf 2HKOs Piloswine. Good matchup
Silver(33): MW Surf OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs everything else but Meganium, which is 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb. Pretty good matchup, as a whole, only watch out for Curse
Clair(38): outspeeds and OHKOs Dragonair with NMI Blizzard, if you hit, that is. Kingdra is outsped and 3HKOed by Sludge Bomb, but it Smokescreens you, so enjoy the hax.
Silver(40): MW Surf OHKOs Haunter and 2HKOs Magneton, Sneasel, and Golbat. Sludge Bomb OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs Meganium (second hit KOs even with Reflect up). Avoid Magneton and you get a pretty good matchup
Will(40): Psychic is a 2HKO on Tentacruel and you can't OHKO anything, other than Xatu with Blizzard. Bad matchup
Koga(40): MW Surf 2HKOs the Bugs and 4HKOs Muk, which is annoying at best due to not having much to do in return.
Bruno(40): Barrier to the max and then spam STAB moves. They deal nothing to you, even with Thunder Punch because lol no category split. May need to heal once in case you get an unlucky crit, but you can sweep here if you don't mind the set up.
Karen(40): beats Houndoom and Murkrow. Gengar can also be defeated if you don't mind Curse
Lance(41): outspeeds and OHKOs lv. 47 Dragonite with Blizzard, if you hit. Lv. 50 lives one, though it goes for Outrage, which deals nothing if you are healthy enough. Zard and Aero are 2HKOed by Surf
Jasmine(30): MW Surf almost OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Steelix. Avoid Magnemite
Pryce(31): PBarb Sludge Bomb 2HKOs and 3HKOs Seel and Dewgong, while Surf 2HKOs Piloswine. Good matchup
Silver(33): MW Surf OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs everything else but Meganium, which is 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb. Pretty good matchup, as a whole, only watch out for Curse
Clair(38): outspeeds and OHKOs Dragonair with NMI Blizzard, if you hit, that is. Kingdra is outsped and 3HKOed by Sludge Bomb, but it Smokescreens you, so enjoy the hax.
Silver(40): MW Surf OHKOs Haunter and 2HKOs Magneton, Sneasel, and Golbat. Sludge Bomb OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs Meganium (second hit KOs even with Reflect up). Avoid Magneton and you get a pretty good matchup
Will(40): Psychic is a 2HKO on Tentacruel and you can't OHKO anything, other than Xatu with Blizzard. Bad matchup
Koga(40): MW Surf 2HKOs the Bugs and 4HKOs Muk, which is annoying at best due to not having much to do in return.
Bruno(40): Barrier to the max and then spam STAB moves. They deal nothing to you, even with Thunder Punch because lol no category split. May need to heal once in case you get an unlucky crit, but you can sweep here if you don't mind the set up.
Karen(40): beats Houndoom and Murkrow. Gengar can also be defeated if you don't mind Curse
Lance(41): outspeeds and OHKOs lv. 47 Dragonite with Blizzard, if you hit. Lv. 50 lives one, though it goes for Outrage, which deals nothing if you are healthy enough. Zard and Aero are 2HKOed by Surf
Chuck(31): MW Surf 2HKOs Primeape and 5HKOs Poliwrath. Poliwrath 5HKOs with Dynamic Punch and won't be an issue as long as you don't sleep for too long
Jasmine(31): MW Surf OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Steelix while outspeeding. Magnemite is rolls, however.
Pryce(31): MW Surf gets past Seel and Piloswine, but Dewgong takes too much time due to Rest
Silver(32): MW Surf OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs the rest bar Meganium. Note that Haunter is faster as well.
Clair(38): outspeeds and OHKOs Dragonair with NMI Blizzard. That is, if you actually hit it. Thunder Wave + TBolt will certainly cause you problems if you miss.
Silver(40): MW Surf OHKOs Haunter and 2HKOs the rest bar Meganium, which is 2HKOed by Wing Attack + Blizzard. You won't be able to sweep without healing, but you can take out most of his team with reasonable ease.
Will(40): pretty much a luckfest. You are outsped by the main hax abusers and are at their mercy, with MW Surf 3HKOing Jynx and 2HKOing Xatu. Exeggutor can live a Blizzard and finish you off if you are too damaged. Blizzard OHKOs Xatu as well
Koga(41): MW Surf 2HKOs the Bugs, 3HKOs Crobat, and 4HKOs Muk. The latter two are a bit problematic, though Muk mostly spams Acid Armor or Toxic, so you can beat 4/5 of his team
Bruno(41): Wing Attack 3HKOs Hitmontop. Surf OHKOs Onix. Lee generally Swaggers, so you may be able to kill it. Avoid the rest
Karen(41): beats Houndoom and Murkrow. Gengar can also be defeated if you don't mind Curse
Lance(41): Dragonite outspeed it, unfortunately, meaning you cannot take on the Thunder one reliably and you will have a hard time beating the other DNites. Doesn't help that Aero can hit it hard with Ancient Power too. Bad matchup, though Agility could help if you find a way to set it up
Jasmine(31): MW Surf OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Steelix while outspeeding. Magnemite is rolls, however.
Pryce(31): MW Surf gets past Seel and Piloswine, but Dewgong takes too much time due to Rest
Silver(32): MW Surf OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs the rest bar Meganium. Note that Haunter is faster as well.
Clair(38): outspeeds and OHKOs Dragonair with NMI Blizzard. That is, if you actually hit it. Thunder Wave + TBolt will certainly cause you problems if you miss.
Silver(40): MW Surf OHKOs Haunter and 2HKOs the rest bar Meganium, which is 2HKOed by Wing Attack + Blizzard. You won't be able to sweep without healing, but you can take out most of his team with reasonable ease.
Will(40): pretty much a luckfest. You are outsped by the main hax abusers and are at their mercy, with MW Surf 3HKOing Jynx and 2HKOing Xatu. Exeggutor can live a Blizzard and finish you off if you are too damaged. Blizzard OHKOs Xatu as well
Koga(41): MW Surf 2HKOs the Bugs, 3HKOs Crobat, and 4HKOs Muk. The latter two are a bit problematic, though Muk mostly spams Acid Armor or Toxic, so you can beat 4/5 of his team
Bruno(41): Wing Attack 3HKOs Hitmontop. Surf OHKOs Onix. Lee generally Swaggers, so you may be able to kill it. Avoid the rest
Karen(41): beats Houndoom and Murkrow. Gengar can also be defeated if you don't mind Curse
Lance(41): Dragonite outspeed it, unfortunately, meaning you cannot take on the Thunder one reliably and you will have a hard time beating the other DNites. Doesn't help that Aero can hit it hard with Ancient Power too. Bad matchup, though Agility could help if you find a way to set it up
here are my thoughts:
Spearow
Can't say I felt any S-tier potential for it and I wouldn't agree with S-tier at all (although in Drums's defense, he only said he could see it, he made it clear that A is good for it too). My Fearow hit slightly weaker than Drums's Fearow, most notably missing the 3HKO on Miltank with PB Return (and my Attack IV was 9. Tried to keep it somewhat balanced) and then dying to Rollout. Jasmine matchup wasn't ideal, though Pryce has his Seel and Dewgong defeated easily. Chuck is a bit of a luck matchup, as you cannot 2HKO his Poliwrath, which gives him some chance to hax you like crazy. Its E4 performance was fine, for most parts, it could 2HKO a good amount of Pokemon per each E4 member, though you aren't sweeping any of them without luck. I would be much more comfortable with A-tier than S-tier.
As for regular vs Kenya, honestly, it depends a lot on your preferences. Spearow is good for Falkner and Bugsy and can be valuable against Silver in Azalea if you picked Totodile, while also getting a much more powerful Return right off the bat. Kenya does have the advantage of traded experience (not sure if its IVs are fixed, I know its gender is random, so I assume the Attack IV isn't fixed), but you skip some important matchups otherwise. So yeah, just use the one that you want, if you are already covered for the first fights, you might as well use Kenya, given that Fearow doesn't seem likely to beat Miltank anyways (though Leer support would be nice, I guess).
Mareep
Between GS and HGSS, I think Mareep has its better performance in GS. While it coming after Falkner kind of sucks (though maybe not, because Mud-Slap), getting access to Fire Punch and a special Thunder Punch means that it's got more under its belt here. Anyways, enough with the comparison, one of the line's strongest points is how easy it is train due to Med Slow growth rate, to the point that I barely felt the pre-Thundershock period. Once you get past Morty, you typically have great matchups, beating Gyms 5-7 with no problems. And that is without using Thunderdance whatsoever. I wish I hadn't forgotten to use it on Kingdra, though its E4 performance was rather nice. It could get past most of Will and Koga and was very useful for Lance, OHKOing all of the non-Dragonites (though you need to heal). Bruno wasn't a great matchup and Karen was kind of average.
As for rank, B / A, personally, I think the case for A here is stronger than the one in HGSS. Not to mention that Thunder Wave early on can be incredibly useful for aces like Miltank and Gengar (especially on Miltank where you can flinch it with your own Headbutt, if you like to rely on RNG), though it does have moments of mediocrity. I kind of wish I had used Thunderdance for Koga, though Thunder is a luxury elsewhere. As a whole, its strongest points are early arrival, Med Slow growth rate, tons of good matchups, and Thunder Wave support early on.
Machamp
My thoughts on Machamp constantly fluctuated between matchups. At first, Machop had no problems sweeping Whitney (and is probably the best Pokemon for this job) and traded experience + Med Slow growth rate meant that I essentially had an extra team slot when it came to experience. Then I started to feel as if Machamp couldn't sweep anything reliably, being luck-reliant against Poliwrath, relying on Iron Tail misses against Jasmine, and relying on Blizzard misses against Pryce. It can beat the three Dragonair without healing if it gets lucky enough. Its E4 performance was a bit mixed, it's awful for Will, but is ok for Koga and Bruno. Its best trait at the E4 is that it's the best Pokemon you could use on Karen's Umbreon, as Vital Throw ignores the accuracy check, so you can consistently take on that one Pokemon (you can also kill Houndoom from full).
In terms of rank, B / A. I think A is still possible due to its unique traits and ease of training. While it does have 3 IVs in Attack, I don't think that was the main culprit behind my concerns (moreso the Speed, imo). As a whole, it can do some things that nothing else can do, but it has some pretty glaring weaknesses
Mantine
I think this is a solid C-tier. Mantine, as a whole, relies mostly on Surf spam and it's ok at that. Its biggest issues, other than coming after four badges, are its Slow growth rate, which makes it pretty bad when it comes to grinding, and its relatively poor movepool, as it doesn't have a way of getting past Water resists (it can strike Grass-types with Icy Wind, though). Wing Attack comes too late and isn't particularly useful for the E4. There isn't much I can say that is not in the logs, it's a good Surf Pokemon, but you certainly have a lot of better options if you are looking for a Water-type. It's useful, but I cannot imagine something higher than C on that thing. Blizzard reliancy was also a bit of a turn off for me
Tentacruel
Personally, leaning towards C on this as well, with a small possibility of B. Tentacruel is mostly a better Mantine due to Sludge Bomb STAB, allowing it to deal better with Water resists. Slow growth rate, likewise, doesn't help it at all, along with Cruel coming after four badges, unless you are deranged enough to actually use the nightmare called early Tentacool. Barrier also helped it a bit at the E4, allowing it to sweep Bruno with at best one healing. Just like Mantine, Tentacruel was fairly reliant on Blizzard to get some KOs, though it could take on Lance if lucky, as it could outspeed all the Dragonites and hit them with Blizzard, should it hit at all, of course.
Some of the things I used here will definitely need more testing, particularly Machamp / Tentacruel / Mareep. Spearow and Mantine, I am relatively confident in them, though it wouldn't hurt if someone else wanted to try them, if they cannot think of anything better to use.
I am planning on using Gengar (used it casually, found it great), Gyarados, and Espeon (which I am unlikely to nominte to higher than C due to having to evolve it by level 16) for a next run. Will most likely use Graveler too to keep my experience somewhat balanced. Expect logs relatively soon-ish, as GSC on emulator is incredibly easy to run, especially since we don't have to test Team Rocket whatsoever.
e: yeah, actually, nvm, Espeon isn't getting Confusion, as it comes at level 20, I confused the join level with HGSS, I am gonna have tons of fun with that.
Last edited:
Curious to see what you think of Gengar. I disagreed with it, but the previous list knocked it down to C because the Gastly grind against NPCs was inefficient. However, since this list is concerning itself less with NPCs and more with major battles, I found Curse+Hypnosis to be more than enough in major fights to carry it until Night Shade and the Gengar phase shortly after, when it obviously gets all the Elemental Punches, with Ice Punch being particularly useful for the Dragon users and a fast Hypnosis never really dropping off in usefulness.
B felt appropriate to me in my playthrough. Gengar itself felt like an A but the Gastly grind was admittedly a little inefficient. Its placement here seems like it will ultimately be pretty dependent on the philosophical difference between efficient route clearing vs. effective major matchups, and how much an awkward teenage phase can be held against it.
B felt appropriate to me in my playthrough. Gengar itself felt like an A but the Gastly grind was admittedly a little inefficient. Its placement here seems like it will ultimately be pretty dependent on the philosophical difference between efficient route clearing vs. effective major matchups, and how much an awkward teenage phase can be held against it.