I'll make a more thorough analysis when I beat the game, but so far Jigglypuff (C) feels really, really good. It learns Rollout naturally, it uses all the Elemental Punches quite well, it levels up really fast, and it can fully evolve before the 4th Gym. The biggest knocks to it are the 5% encounter rate and its slow speed, but otherwise it's been performing well. There are similarities between this and Granbull. Granbull's Attack is way higher, but Wigglytuff does have some extra power behind its Elemental Punches. I wanna see which stat winds up being more important in the end.
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GSC In-Game Tier List Mk. IV
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Learning Rollout naturally is a moot point because the TM for it is on Route 35. The power you get from a Wigglytuff with how low the encounter rate is, is rather bad. Also, having HP that high isn't meaningful until you get Leftovers. I believe you that it's putting in work. STAB Strength can't go wrong. It's just too much effort to get Wiggs.
You can save the Rollout TM for something else. Considering how valuable that move is in this game, that's gotta be worth some bonus points. Also, yeah the 5% encounter rate is annoying, and Jiggly should be penalized for it, but does that really warrant a D-tier listing? Encounter rate aside, Jigglypuff is about on par with Snubbull, if not better (I'm just noticing that Snubbull can't learn Rollout). A Snubbull with extra steps is still a good mon.
Do you mind going into why Rollout is so valued in the game? I'm unaware.
Snubbull evolves @level23, which makes it end up not all that different from the Moon Stone. And the final form has significantly more attack power, so I'm a little hesitant to say it's a Snubbull with extra steps. I'd more call it a 'mini Kangaskhan'. D-tier might be too low for Wiggs, sure. No normal type in GSC can be that bad, right? haha
Snubbull evolves @level23, which makes it end up not all that different from the Moon Stone. And the final form has significantly more attack power, so I'm a little hesitant to say it's a Snubbull with extra steps. I'd more call it a 'mini Kangaskhan'. D-tier might be too low for Wiggs, sure. No normal type in GSC can be that bad, right? haha
Really? When I used it, it feels very unimpressive. No way of inflicting damage until Lv 9 (Pound) and low base stats make it a chore to use. Headbutt is very helpful before you get Rollout helps before you get to Lv 19 or go to Route 35 for the TM. You cannot even get a Moon Stone before you get Surf which is after Morty. Wigglytuff by itself is alright but the time investment makes it not worth it imo.
Rollout is dicey, but it allows your mons to sweep Routes throughout the mid-game and even steal Gym battles that they would otherwise have no business winning. My Lv 21 Jigglypuff handily beat Whitney with it for instance, which shouldn't at all happen. Plus, Rock is just an overall solid type throughout the game. It falls off by the Elite Four, but by then it should have done a good amount of work. I know in my most recent run, my Cyndaquil would have been miserable without it.
You can get a Moon Stone from your Mom if you leave behind enough money. It takes a little back and forth, but after you clear Sudowoodo, you can go back home, deposit most of your money, and after a couple of trainer battles you should get a Moon Stone in your PC just in time for Morty. Also, keep in mind that I'm talking about Crystal Jigglypuff. You can catch her at Lv 12 immediately after getting the Headbutt TM and skipping the early game lull with only Defense Curl and Sing.
Jigglypuff (C) (Caught in Rt 34, Lv 12. Cyndaquil, Bellsprout, Jigglypuff, Chinchou)
On Route to Gym 3 (Headbutt, Sing, Defense Curl, Pound)
Jigglypuff was able to hold her own against even trainers that were over her level. Because of a Fast XP rate and her good route cleaning, she leveled up really fast.
Gym 3 (Lv 21, Headbutt, Sing, Defense Curl, Rollout)
Sing on Clefairy>Defense Curl>Rollout gives you a good chance to sweep the whole match. Without that set-up, Jiggly stands only a marginal chance vs Miltank in Sing>Rollout luck. Still, the fact that a non-evolved jankmon is even capable of sweeping at all in this gym speaks volumes. Swingy match, but possible.
On Route to Gym 4 (Lv 22, Evolved to Wigglytuff, Headbutt, Thunder Punch, Defense Curl, Rollout)
Jiggly is not great vs Sudowoodo. She can 4 hit it with Thunder Punch, but it can 2-hit Jiggly easily. After beating Sudowoodo, I went back to the hometown to save money with the Mom. About three trainer battles later, I got my Moon Stone and evolved Wigglytuff. She had no issues beating trainers, the Kimono Girls, Rival 3 (except for Magnemite), or Morty's Channelers.
Gym 4 (Lv 25)
The only scary mons here are the Haunter with Hypnosis and the Gengar. If you ever get put to sleep, you dead. If you set up a Rollout, though, the match should usually go smoothly. Even Gastly's Curse shouldn't be an issue since if you kill each mon in one turn, your mons just avoid the Curse damage. Very favorable.
On Route to Gym 5 (Lv 25, Stength, Thunder Punch, Defense Curl, Rollout)
Not much to stress here, except a couple of Magnemites that wall her. Even the Sailor's Machops pose little threat since Wiggly's Headbutt just 1-2 shots them anyway with a chance to flinch. Taught her Strength when I arrived in Olivine City. The Swimmer's mons were Thunder Punched easily. Eusine might pose a threat if you let his Drowzee set up a Hypnosis>Dream Eater, and I did get my Wigglytuff Ko'd in one playthrough, but this shouldn't be the norm.
Gym 5 (Chuck, Lv 28)
Are you kidding me? Of course Wigglytuff's not playable here. Primeape outspeeds her and can KO with a crit Karate Chop. Poliwrath is possible if its Dynamic Punch or Hypnosis get unlucky, but still she's always in threat of a OHKO.
On Route to Gym 6
There are some Nidokings and Nidoqueens that can ignore Thunder Punch and Rollout, but those get 2-3 shot with STAB Strength anyway. Red Gyarados is paper vs Thunder Punch. Aside for some Golbats here and there, the Rocket Hideout isn't much trouble for her
Gym 6 (Pryce, Lv 32)
Thunder Punch can 2-shot Seal and 3-shot Dewgongs, but they can combined 4-shot in return. Rollout sweeping is possible, but without any set-up it's likely Wiggly just dies before she fully executes it (In my case, I had a Victreebell with Sleep Powder to help me). It's favorable, but not overwhelmingly so.
Gym 7 (Jasmine, Lv 33)
I can't say I did any testing with her. I imagine it would go smoothly if you teach Wigglytuff Fire Punch.
Radio Tower (Lv 33)
Yikes. This is where Wigglytuff's low speed and marginal bulk come to bite her. Those Golbats can harass her badly with speedy Confuse Rays into Bite. Also, she can't OHKO Koffings or Weezings, leaving her vulnerable to Self Destruct. Rollout starts losing its luster since Wiggly's too prone to interruptions from Status moves or Flinch. Wigglytuff does well vs every other trainers without Golbats, Koffings, or Weezings, but that's still a healthy chunk of questionable matches.
Gym 8 (Lv 35)
The good is that Wigglytuff can tank four-five Dragon Breaths, and she can 2-shot the Dragonaires with Ice Punch. The bad is she is crunchy to Thunder Wave and not remarkable vs Kingdra. If you get lucky with Paralysis, you can probably KO two Dragonaires, or even three if you get a lucky crit, but Kingdra is a no go. Mixed.
On Route to the Elite Four (Lv 35)
There's a Victreebel that can give Wigglytuff pause here with Sleep Powder, but the rest go down with no troubles. Vs Rival 5, Golbat and Magnemite can wreck her day, but the rest of his team go down with ease.
Elite Four Match 1 (Lv 40, Strength, Thunder Punch, Ice Punch, Shadow Ball)
Eww. The Xatus almost always start with a speedy Confuse Ray, which is often a match ender for Wiggly. Most mons 2-3 HKO with their Psychics. Her Shadow Ball can only 2-shot the Xatus and Jynx while needing 3-4 hits vs Slowbrow and Exeggutor, which just isn't enough power. Makes me wish I'd have kept Rollout. Poor.
Match 2 (Lv 41)
While Wigglytuff isn't under much threat from damage, she isn't strong enough to stop all the Double Team/Mimimize shenanigans from getting out of hand. She can 3-4 shot just about everything with Thunder Punch or Strength at least. Partially poor.
Match 3
Hah. Anything not named Onix or Hitmontop eats her alive. Poor.
Match 4 (Lv 42)
Wigglytuff wants no business with Umbreon. It will lock her in place and Sand-Attack annoy her into submission. Vileplume is also no fun thanks to its Stun Spore, although she can 3-shot Ice Punch it. Good against Murkrow and Gengar, but Houndoom's Flamethrower is too much for her. I would have loved to try this match with Rollout if given the chance since I have a feeling she could have swept Karen's Murkrow, Gengar, and Houndoom solo. For this run, though, generally poor.
Champion (Lv 43)
If you can stick two X-Specials on her, this match is solid for her. Thunder Punch+Ice Punch OHKOs Gyarados and Dragonite, and she's bulky enough to just survive two Outrages. She'd get KO'd by Charizard, Aerodactyl, or the third Dragonite, but taking on half her team by herself is still good work. Decent.
Conclusion: If you look past the encounter rate, Crystal Jigglypuff has quite a lot going for her. In the early-mid game she's mostly self sufficient and can beat trainers handily while also sweeping Gym leaders. She also evolves pretty fast with just some attention to investing your money to your Mom. Chuck is a no go, however she can hold her own vs Bryce, (I imagine) Jasmine, Claire, and Lance. However, by the Radio Tower, her low speed and only decent offenses and bulk will catch up, and she'll soon grow to hate status effects which are more prominent in the late game. The Elite Four is mostly a dud as well, since she just doesn't have that extra power to make meaningful KOs. Overall, I'd rank Jigglypuff as a C. She's very flexible, can hit most everything Super effectively, and has solid matchups vs most key matches, but her late game and Elite Four performance can leave a lot to be desired.
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After playing Bellsprout, I agree with a C ranking. Its offenses are abysmal before Sludge Bomb, but its support potential is top tier. Sleep Powder turns many matches into auto wins for your other more offensively capable mons to reap.
Cyndaquil I also agree is B rank, although man that thing is a TM hog. Rollout almost seems like a must have, because without it its mid game is bleh with just Ember and Quick Attack.
Chinchou I'm not quite sure on. Yeah, its typing and moves are good, but it comes late, needs a heavy detour to get early enough to matter, and it levels up sooooo slowly. I dare say that it may just be C-Tier, although maybe I didn't realize its support potential with Thunder Wave+Confuse Ray. Victreebel was doing too good of a job Sleeping everything for me to try that out more often.
On a separate note, how should we factor in the Return TM into rankings? I think any mons that have to rely on it to do better should get penalized. It's not a reliable TM to have all the time since it's dependant on the day of the week.
On Route to Gym 3 (Headbutt, Sing, Defense Curl, Pound)
Jigglypuff was able to hold her own against even trainers that were over her level. Because of a Fast XP rate and her good route cleaning, she leveled up really fast.
Gym 3 (Lv 21, Headbutt, Sing, Defense Curl, Rollout)
Sing on Clefairy>Defense Curl>Rollout gives you a good chance to sweep the whole match. Without that set-up, Jiggly stands only a marginal chance vs Miltank in Sing>Rollout luck. Still, the fact that a non-evolved jankmon is even capable of sweeping at all in this gym speaks volumes. Swingy match, but possible.
On Route to Gym 4 (Lv 22, Evolved to Wigglytuff, Headbutt, Thunder Punch, Defense Curl, Rollout)
Jiggly is not great vs Sudowoodo. She can 4 hit it with Thunder Punch, but it can 2-hit Jiggly easily. After beating Sudowoodo, I went back to the hometown to save money with the Mom. About three trainer battles later, I got my Moon Stone and evolved Wigglytuff. She had no issues beating trainers, the Kimono Girls, Rival 3 (except for Magnemite), or Morty's Channelers.
Gym 4 (Lv 25)
The only scary mons here are the Haunter with Hypnosis and the Gengar. If you ever get put to sleep, you dead. If you set up a Rollout, though, the match should usually go smoothly. Even Gastly's Curse shouldn't be an issue since if you kill each mon in one turn, your mons just avoid the Curse damage. Very favorable.
On Route to Gym 5 (Lv 25, Stength, Thunder Punch, Defense Curl, Rollout)
Not much to stress here, except a couple of Magnemites that wall her. Even the Sailor's Machops pose little threat since Wiggly's Headbutt just 1-2 shots them anyway with a chance to flinch. Taught her Strength when I arrived in Olivine City. The Swimmer's mons were Thunder Punched easily. Eusine might pose a threat if you let his Drowzee set up a Hypnosis>Dream Eater, and I did get my Wigglytuff Ko'd in one playthrough, but this shouldn't be the norm.
Gym 5 (Chuck, Lv 28)
Are you kidding me? Of course Wigglytuff's not playable here. Primeape outspeeds her and can KO with a crit Karate Chop. Poliwrath is possible if its Dynamic Punch or Hypnosis get unlucky, but still she's always in threat of a OHKO.
On Route to Gym 6
There are some Nidokings and Nidoqueens that can ignore Thunder Punch and Rollout, but those get 2-3 shot with STAB Strength anyway. Red Gyarados is paper vs Thunder Punch. Aside for some Golbats here and there, the Rocket Hideout isn't much trouble for her
Gym 6 (Pryce, Lv 32)
Thunder Punch can 2-shot Seal and 3-shot Dewgongs, but they can combined 4-shot in return. Rollout sweeping is possible, but without any set-up it's likely Wiggly just dies before she fully executes it (In my case, I had a Victreebell with Sleep Powder to help me). It's favorable, but not overwhelmingly so.
Gym 7 (Jasmine, Lv 33)
I can't say I did any testing with her. I imagine it would go smoothly if you teach Wigglytuff Fire Punch.
Radio Tower (Lv 33)
Yikes. This is where Wigglytuff's low speed and marginal bulk come to bite her. Those Golbats can harass her badly with speedy Confuse Rays into Bite. Also, she can't OHKO Koffings or Weezings, leaving her vulnerable to Self Destruct. Rollout starts losing its luster since Wiggly's too prone to interruptions from Status moves or Flinch. Wigglytuff does well vs every other trainers without Golbats, Koffings, or Weezings, but that's still a healthy chunk of questionable matches.
Gym 8 (Lv 35)
The good is that Wigglytuff can tank four-five Dragon Breaths, and she can 2-shot the Dragonaires with Ice Punch. The bad is she is crunchy to Thunder Wave and not remarkable vs Kingdra. If you get lucky with Paralysis, you can probably KO two Dragonaires, or even three if you get a lucky crit, but Kingdra is a no go. Mixed.
On Route to the Elite Four (Lv 35)
There's a Victreebel that can give Wigglytuff pause here with Sleep Powder, but the rest go down with no troubles. Vs Rival 5, Golbat and Magnemite can wreck her day, but the rest of his team go down with ease.
Elite Four Match 1 (Lv 40, Strength, Thunder Punch, Ice Punch, Shadow Ball)
Eww. The Xatus almost always start with a speedy Confuse Ray, which is often a match ender for Wiggly. Most mons 2-3 HKO with their Psychics. Her Shadow Ball can only 2-shot the Xatus and Jynx while needing 3-4 hits vs Slowbrow and Exeggutor, which just isn't enough power. Makes me wish I'd have kept Rollout. Poor.
Match 2 (Lv 41)
While Wigglytuff isn't under much threat from damage, she isn't strong enough to stop all the Double Team/Mimimize shenanigans from getting out of hand. She can 3-4 shot just about everything with Thunder Punch or Strength at least. Partially poor.
Match 3
Hah. Anything not named Onix or Hitmontop eats her alive. Poor.
Match 4 (Lv 42)
Wigglytuff wants no business with Umbreon. It will lock her in place and Sand-Attack annoy her into submission. Vileplume is also no fun thanks to its Stun Spore, although she can 3-shot Ice Punch it. Good against Murkrow and Gengar, but Houndoom's Flamethrower is too much for her. I would have loved to try this match with Rollout if given the chance since I have a feeling she could have swept Karen's Murkrow, Gengar, and Houndoom solo. For this run, though, generally poor.
Champion (Lv 43)
If you can stick two X-Specials on her, this match is solid for her. Thunder Punch+Ice Punch OHKOs Gyarados and Dragonite, and she's bulky enough to just survive two Outrages. She'd get KO'd by Charizard, Aerodactyl, or the third Dragonite, but taking on half her team by herself is still good work. Decent.
Conclusion: If you look past the encounter rate, Crystal Jigglypuff has quite a lot going for her. In the early-mid game she's mostly self sufficient and can beat trainers handily while also sweeping Gym leaders. She also evolves pretty fast with just some attention to investing your money to your Mom. Chuck is a no go, however she can hold her own vs Bryce, (I imagine) Jasmine, Claire, and Lance. However, by the Radio Tower, her low speed and only decent offenses and bulk will catch up, and she'll soon grow to hate status effects which are more prominent in the late game. The Elite Four is mostly a dud as well, since she just doesn't have that extra power to make meaningful KOs. Overall, I'd rank Jigglypuff as a C. She's very flexible, can hit most everything Super effectively, and has solid matchups vs most key matches, but her late game and Elite Four performance can leave a lot to be desired.
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After playing Bellsprout, I agree with a C ranking. Its offenses are abysmal before Sludge Bomb, but its support potential is top tier. Sleep Powder turns many matches into auto wins for your other more offensively capable mons to reap.
Cyndaquil I also agree is B rank, although man that thing is a TM hog. Rollout almost seems like a must have, because without it its mid game is bleh with just Ember and Quick Attack.
Chinchou I'm not quite sure on. Yeah, its typing and moves are good, but it comes late, needs a heavy detour to get early enough to matter, and it levels up sooooo slowly. I dare say that it may just be C-Tier, although maybe I didn't realize its support potential with Thunder Wave+Confuse Ray. Victreebel was doing too good of a job Sleeping everything for me to try that out more often.
On a separate note, how should we factor in the Return TM into rankings? I think any mons that have to rely on it to do better should get penalized. It's not a reliable TM to have all the time since it's dependant on the day of the week.
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I think it'd depend on how the tier list handles resetting the clock. To me it's perfectly acceptable to reset the clock to get the TMs. Having access to Headbutt / Swift / Strength is still a benefit because there's a significant period of time where the Normal TMs inflict more damage, and getting the TM itself requires a detour. I think it mostly matters for the post-Surf mons since the Friend Ball gives a 80 BP Return immediately (which is also a time investment).
A big issue with resetting the clock is that the process varies in difficulty between games. It's way less tedious to pull off in GS than it is Crystal.
For whatever it is worth, I think changing the clock for Lapras and Return TM shouldn't count heavily since it is trivial to do. Even Kurt's balls are trivial to get for Friend Ball shenanigans.
About Flareon (Crystal), my biggest problem with it is the backtrack from Alan Schoolboy to New Bark Town plus having to shell out for a very expensive Fire Blast TM. You will also be facing a lot of Water-type enemies soon so it can only really shine vs Jasmine and Rockets. If more people vouch for it, I have no issues with C but I am not sold on its performances.
Jigglypuff (Crystal) means a huge backtrack for the Moon Stone and saving money also means you can't spend it on TMs to improve more members of your team. Once evolved, it can have some OK performances from your analysis but even after all that, it's not sweeping teams anytime soon. I'd rate it similar to Crobat / Pidgeot as you need to backtrack for a Friend Ball and they aren't going to be sweeping enemies except Chuck. The difference is Crobat / Pidgeot only needs the Return TM. I can put them in similar ranks but the investment required makes it inefficient for me. I can still be convinced if there are support for Jiggly though.
About Flareon (Crystal), my biggest problem with it is the backtrack from Alan Schoolboy to New Bark Town plus having to shell out for a very expensive Fire Blast TM. You will also be facing a lot of Water-type enemies soon so it can only really shine vs Jasmine and Rockets. If more people vouch for it, I have no issues with C but I am not sold on its performances.
Jigglypuff (Crystal) means a huge backtrack for the Moon Stone and saving money also means you can't spend it on TMs to improve more members of your team. Once evolved, it can have some OK performances from your analysis but even after all that, it's not sweeping teams anytime soon. I'd rate it similar to Crobat / Pidgeot as you need to backtrack for a Friend Ball and they aren't going to be sweeping enemies except Chuck. The difference is Crobat / Pidgeot only needs the Return TM. I can put them in similar ranks but the investment required makes it inefficient for me. I can still be convinced if there are support for Jiggly though.
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I used Flareon (C) recently and I can vouch for C-Tier. It was fine just spamming Shadow Ball and Headbutt all day. Fireblast only became relevant in the Jasmine fight, which by then you should have enough money for it. There are similarities to it and Heracross in that they both get carried by their raw stats alone. Heracross does have the advantage of being found noticeably earlier, but Flareon also has better Elite Four fights vs Will and Koga thanks to Ghost and Fire moves. Still, it's practically unusable vs Morty, is poor vs Chuck, and has mixed results vs Bryce. As sad as it may seem, Flareon just may be the best Eeveelution in Crystal.
Speaking of Eeveelutions, I cannot fathom why Espeon would be ranked B-Tier. The Friendship evolution is bad enough, there's also the fact that it learns zero relevant moves between Lv 20 and 36. That's a lot of dead time of using only Headbutt and (if you're crazy enough) Shadow Ball off of a 65 Attack Stat by the time you get to Victory Road.
Speaking of Eeveelutions, I cannot fathom why Espeon would be ranked B-Tier. The Friendship evolution is bad enough, there's also the fact that it learns zero relevant moves between Lv 20 and 36. That's a lot of dead time of using only Headbutt and (if you're crazy enough) Shadow Ball off of a 65 Attack Stat by the time you get to Victory Road.
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I do agree that Espeon feels out of place among the other members of B-tier: Sentret, Seel, Chinchou, Jynx, and others. Espy only has 1 "real" attack before Level36 (Bite). Most of the current B-tiers have immediate performance or only take a little training to get to a suitable point. The only member that has a grind comparable to Espeon's is Slowpoke. But perhaps it's amazing Elite Four and Kanto performance do a lot to make up for it in the eyes of many players.
Espeon should be a C-tier. I think I made a typo in the OP. I'm going to change it later.
I second Espeon being C-tier. Sure it has plenty of firepower when you get it going, but that's the thing. There's way too much dexterity to make it usable. You need to splash out money which could be going to potions, balls, and repels just to get a ton of X-items, which aren't even going to be used for sweeps, vitamins, and haircuts. Not only that, but you have to do the incredibly specific keep Eevee until 30 and evolve it before 36 procedure. Learning its first STAB move at 36 is also extremely questionable considering Johto's level curve.
Flareon (C) and Vaporeon (C) feel like they should both be at least ranked the same as Umbreon. I don't understand Umbreon's C-tiering. What does it even do besides wall Will and Sabrina? It can't even defend against Lance's Dragonites without Hyper Potions because it won't have Moonlight. The battles it participates in are so slow.
Vap is like all other waters, but has the benefit of learning Aurora Beam right on time, as you reach the E4. And Acid Armor is a useful tool in the Blue and Red fights. Flareon, we have already discussed. But it's got a stronger punch than all of Heracross, Pinsir, & Scyther, while is also is obtained at virtually the same point of time in the game, and at a Level that is 2x higher than the Level Heracross can be caught at. Base speed doesn't really matter that much; trainers don't have stat EXP. It should be ranked equal to the bugs.
Vap is like all other waters, but has the benefit of learning Aurora Beam right on time, as you reach the E4. And Acid Armor is a useful tool in the Blue and Red fights. Flareon, we have already discussed. But it's got a stronger punch than all of Heracross, Pinsir, & Scyther, while is also is obtained at virtually the same point of time in the game, and at a Level that is 2x higher than the Level Heracross can be caught at. Base speed doesn't really matter that much; trainers don't have stat EXP. It should be ranked equal to the bugs.
If anything, it seems like Vaporeon is being undervalued if it's Crystal and Flareon overvalued if it's GS. I don't think these belong in the same tier.
Vaporeon in Crystal should at least be C, as you can phone cheese a Water Stone after the 4th gym, not long after you get Eevee, and you don't have to wait to evolve it unlike other evolutions since Vaporeon also gets Bite at 30, meaning you get to have Surf off a bulky, high special attack Pokemon right away that quickly learns Bite and Aurora Beam. I'm failing to see how this isn't the best Eevee evo in Crystal, actually. In general, Stone evolutions seem undervalued by this list for Crystal, where just running around with only their phone numbers will often naturally get you a stone through normal gameplay in my experience (and hamfisting it with exploits is also an option).
On the other hand, if you're talking GS, they both should be E tier, as they require you to take an Eevee to the Elite Four. I haven't tested it but I have a hunch that it would suck
Vaporeon in Crystal should at least be C, as you can phone cheese a Water Stone after the 4th gym, not long after you get Eevee, and you don't have to wait to evolve it unlike other evolutions since Vaporeon also gets Bite at 30, meaning you get to have Surf off a bulky, high special attack Pokemon right away that quickly learns Bite and Aurora Beam. I'm failing to see how this isn't the best Eevee evo in Crystal, actually. In general, Stone evolutions seem undervalued by this list for Crystal, where just running around with only their phone numbers will often naturally get you a stone through normal gameplay in my experience (and hamfisting it with exploits is also an option).
On the other hand, if you're talking GS, they both should be E tier, as they require you to take an Eevee to the Elite Four. I haven't tested it but I have a hunch that it would suck
I have mentioned that the backtracking from Mahogany back to New Bark Town is extremely annoying as you don't even have Fly yet. If people are willing to overlook this, then I am fine with raising it due to having a good natural movepool + Surf.
I've always thought that biking around for stuff isn't too bad around Ecruteak, it's pretty central. I think the amount you have to go out of your way isn't enough to say that it belongs among the other D-tiers.
I had some other thoughts, sorry if they've already been discussed but it's my first time in the thread and I've played Crystal a lot (playing through now).
I'm also curious why Tyrogue C is so high while all the other Odd Egg Pokemon are lower, particularly Magby and Elekid, who are pretty solid and are relatively rare types for Crystal, which lacks Mareep and Burnt Tower Magmar. I'm also curious how these could be handled, because obviously planning them in a run is impractical but if you just happen to roll a good one, I'd say it's be worth running Magmar, Electabuzz, and maybe Hitmonlee and Jynx (losing Lovely Kiss for Sing sucks tho).
Nice catch about Tyrogue. It was a leftover when I downgraded the Odd Egg mons and completely forgot that it was a part of them.
out of curiosity, how much does out-of-battle utility count for?
I think Paras is an S-class in utility, since it can get Cut, Flash, Rock Smash, and.... Sweet Scent (it's another OOB skill at least, the only other one it gets IIRC) all on one mon, it's available early, and most mons that get one or two of the first three don't get the third. Obviously it's pretty much no good for combat, but it severly cuts down the amount of restricted moveslots for your battle team that will need to be taken out with the Move Deleter later, or swapping mons in and out of the party for traversing places.
So... yeah, how could that affect the ranking of a mon like Paras? I've always found them to be pretty instrumental, even essential, in my efficiency runs of GSC. I'd personally put it no lower than B-tier just because its availability and utility are so good (it shows up right around the time you start needing Cut and Rock Smash to progress, though comes too late for early Dark Cave without backtracking), even if it sucks in battle.
I think Paras is an S-class in utility, since it can get Cut, Flash, Rock Smash, and.... Sweet Scent (it's another OOB skill at least, the only other one it gets IIRC) all on one mon, it's available early, and most mons that get one or two of the first three don't get the third. Obviously it's pretty much no good for combat, but it severly cuts down the amount of restricted moveslots for your battle team that will need to be taken out with the Move Deleter later, or swapping mons in and out of the party for traversing places.
So... yeah, how could that affect the ranking of a mon like Paras? I've always found them to be pretty instrumental, even essential, in my efficiency runs of GSC. I'd personally put it no lower than B-tier just because its availability and utility are so good (it shows up right around the time you start needing Cut and Rock Smash to progress, though comes too late for early Dark Cave without backtracking), even if it sucks in battle.
imo, out-of-battle utility is valuable enough to justify a good tier, but the utility you mention isn't actually all that valuable. Besides the very first tree you Cut in Ilex Forest, you never need any of those moves to complete the game. They're all needed for sidequests and items, but an efficient runthrough of the game can box the Paras you teach Cut as soon as you hit Goldenrod and never look back.
Factoring in its poor performance in battle, I can't see Paras getting higher than C. Spore is nice but it's too slow and vulnerable to meaningfully use it any better than less-accurate sleepers.
That's reasonable IMO. Admittedly I didn't factor in the necessity of its utility, it's just convenient to have compressed into one mon when you need any of the main 3. But yeah, that makes sense, and I do think it could do better than D-tier, C sounds fine to me
C is still too higher personally. At the time of capture, which I believe is Ilex, it’s already under leveled by about 7 levels (Bugsy’s Scyther unless this was changed in HGSS). That matchup is already bad. Next is Whitney which will just outspeed and kill you with Rollout. You aren’t doing anything to Morty. Jasmine as well. Chuck I’m not entirely sure of honestly. Pryce will handle you with Ivy Wind and Clair is just a hard no.
Paras offers very little in battle and only redeeming feature is being an HM Slave. It faces competition from Scyther (Scizor), Pinsir, Heracross
Agree on all points. The interesting part about the Paras line is using that phenomenal signature move to put the roaming legendaries to sleep. But because it is so slow, you will only be able to snooze them if they use Roar: a 25% chance. You are much better off running a Mean Look Haunter. So, there's only one thing Parasect is useful for and it's actually not even that useful for it. You'll be hard pressed to find a more ineffective Pokemon than Parasect. It learns it's first real attack at level 37, and no Headbutt either. It might not be low enough.
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I have just finished a Gold walkthrough with a team of Meganium, Raticate, Scyther, Dewgong, and Rhydon (in-game trade). I wanted to add a Fire-type Pokemon (Ho-Oh) but it would seem redundant with Scyther's, Dewgong's, and Rhydon's STABs. Since Chikorita has a write-up in the OP, I'd like to contribute some write-ups for the other Pokémon:
Name: Rattata
Availability: Early Game, it is available at the first routes you encounter (Routes 30, 31, 32, 33, and 34). Rattata is much more common at night.
Stats: Good Attack and Speed stats for in-game purposes. It is rather frail though.
Typing: Normal STAB is useful in-game for neutral damage to majority of trainers.
Movepool: It learns Hyper Fang at Level 13, which is incredibly early for an 80 BP STAB. It also learns Quick Attack to pick off weakened threats and missed KO's. By virtue of being a Normal-type, Raticate learns a wide selection of TM including Shadow Ball, Dig, Iron Tail, and Icy Wind.
Major Battles: Rattata fares well against Falkner (useful if you chose Chikorita) and Bugsy. Mud Slap or Focus Energy gives it the tools to beat Whitney's Miltank, either by lowering Rollout's accuracy or getting a lucky critical hit. Raticate also handily beats Morty as well if you give it Dig; you wall its Ghost Attacks though Raticate has to switch out if it gets hit by Curse. Late-game, it can OHKO off some frail boss Pokémon such as Will's Jynx, Koga's Ariados and Crobat, and Karen's Murkrow.
Additional Comments: Rattata shines best early/mid-game and peaks once it evolves into Raticate. STAB Hyper Fang and Ground coverage allows it to solo Team Rocket Grunts by itself. Mono-Normal STAB doesn't give it a huge advantage on late-game bosses though its stats and Hyper Fang allow it to clean route trainers efficiently.
Name: Scyther (No trade)
Availability: Early but rare, available at the Bug Catching Contest during Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays.
Stats: Its Attack and Speed stats are perfect for in-game runs. Its bulk is also decent as well.
Typing: Offensively, Bug and Flying STABs are good and fare well against a lot of route trainers, Elite Four, and Kanto gym leaders. Defensively, Ground immunity and double Grass and Fighting resistances are its best assets. Double weakness to Rock sucks though as Fighting-types can surprise it with a Rock Slide which will instantly KO Scyther.
Movepool: Early-game, Scyther will have to rely on Quick Attack and Fury Cutter (TM) to deal damage. Its best STAB, Wing Attack, comes at level 30. It also learns useful moves late-game in Slash and Swords Dance. Besides Fury Cutter, the only useful TMS it learns are Steel Wing and Return.
Major Battles: Scyther's double resistance to Fighting gives it an advantage over Chuck, though it is unlikely that it knows Wing Attack by that stage so Poliwrath may still beat it with Surf. Elite Four is where Scyther shines the best though as it can beat a huge chunk of their teams with Swords Dance + Wing Attack and Slash. In Kanto, Scyther sweeps Erika handily while also performing fine against Misty, and Sabrina. Against Blue, it can take on Alakazam, Exeggutor, and Gyarados. It is walled by Brock though, and Lt. Surge's Electric Attacks will overwhelm Scyther.
Additional Comments: Despite its high stats, Scyther struggles early game bosses to to a poor movepool at that stage. Its high Attack means that it can still keep up with the team by beating route trainers and wild Pokémon. Scyther picks up once it learns Wing Attack, and peaks late-game once it learns Swords Dance at level 42.
Name: Seel
Availability: Late-game. Is is available once you are able to use the HM Whirlpool field move after beating Pryce. It requires a bit of detour at Whirl Islands between Olivine City and Cianwood City and is available at Level 25.
Stats: Dewgong's stats are average overall, with below-average offenses and above-average defenses.
Typing: Dewgong's STABs are fantastic in-game. Water and Ice STABs perform well against a lot of late-game bosses, Kanto Gym Leaders, and Cave Pokémon. Having STAB on its Water and Ice moves also compensate for Dewgong's below average Special Attack. Unlike other Water Pokémon, don't expect it to wall Fire-type moves, as its Ice-typing makes it neutral to them.
Movepool: Seel's biggest advantage over other Water-types is that it learns Ice Beam by level up, as Ice Beam is not a TM in Pokémon Gold and Silver. It also learns useful STAB HMs in Surf and Waterfall, so it is not at all reliant on consumable TMs.
Major Battles: With STAB Ice Beam or Aurora Beam, Dewgong sweeps Clair's Dragonairs while also performing well against Kingdra. It also performs well against Lance Surf and Ice Beam KO's 5/6 of his Pokemon. Its low Speed though means that it has to use some Hyper Potions and it also has to watch out for the Dragonite with Thunder. Dewgong's Kanto performance is also fine: it sweeps Erika, Brock, and Blaine while also performing well against Janine and Blue. Dewgong can also handle Blue's Pidgeot, Rhydon, Exeggutor, and Arcanine.
Additional Comments: Dewgong learns Ice Beam at Level 43 while Seel learns it at Level 37. It is advisable to hold off Seel's evolution for 3 levels so that Dewgong will have the powerful Ice Beam once it faces Clair.
Name: Rhydon (in-game trade)
Availability: Late-game in an in-game trade at Blackthorn City. The girl requires a female Dragonair. To get a female Dragonair you either:
1) purchase a Dratini early in the game (quite expensive) and put it in the daycare to level up then evolve it into Dragonair once it reaches Level 30 or
2) you catch a Level 20 Dratini in the Dragon's Den then grind it up (or use Rare Candies) until it evolves into a Dragonair at Level 30.
Stats: High HP, Attack, and Defense stats make Rhydon a physical powerhouse though its low Speed and special stats hold it back.
Typing: Ground/Rock is a good offensive combo and goes unresisted this generation, though it lacks a consistent Rock STAB. The typing also allows it to wall Electric-, Flying-, and Normal-types. Unfortunately, the same typing also gives it double weaknesses against Water- and Grass-types.
Movepool: Rhydon needs to use the Earthquake TM to obtain its optimal performance. Rhydon is an incredibly powerful user of Earthquake so the sacrifice is more than worth it. Otherwise, it can still use Dig. It's only Rock STAB in this game is Rollout. It can also use powerful Normal moves in Return and Strength (for field utility).
Major Battles: Rhydon can beat Koga though it certainly has to avoid Ariados' Giga Drain. It can beat Lance's Aerodactyl, Charizard, and the Thunder and Fire Blast Dragonites, though it loses to his two other Pokémon. Rhydon's Kanto matchups are great as it sweeps Lt. Surge, Blaine, and Janine while also doing good damage against Sabrina's physically frail Pokémon. Rhydon notably walls and beats 3 of Red's Pokemon: Pikachu, Snorlax, and Charizard.
Additional Comments: Rhydon's in-game trade status allows it to level up faster than its teammates, so catching up isn't a hard problem for the Drill Pokemon. It's powerful but slow so it might not able to successfully run against faster wild Pokémon. Using a Quick Claw can circumvent its Speed problem in battle. It's also good to pack X-Accuracy in case Rhydon wants to sweep with Rollout.
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