GSC In-Game Tier List

Colonel M

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#1
So it's been ages since this game has been out. Hell it's even had a remake about 5 years ago. Crazy that GSC was released about 14-15 years ago too. Anyway, Ender starting this about a year ago and sadly didn't finish this. So I decided to ask him to pick it up and see what I can't do to continue this and get it uploaded.

To do list:
- Add sprites / pictures
- Possibly create another tier
- Separate mons based on which carts they are available on (i.e. Mantine is Gold / Crystal only)

Without further ado:



Pokemon Gold / Silver / Crystal
In-Game Tier List Discussion

What is an in-game tier list?

In-game tier lists rank Pokemon based on effectiveness and usefulness throughout an entire playthrough. An entire playthrough, in the case of GSC, is classified from the very start of the game until you defeat Red up top on Mt. Silver. In-game tier lists rank Pokemon from an efficient playthrough based off of real-time.

What are the tiers?

In this tier list we currently have six tiers. Tiers are based off of the following:

S Tier
A Tier
B Tier
C Tier
D Tier
E Tier
Untiered

The tier list is alphabetized for ease of reading. The higher tier a Pokemon is the more it contributes within an efficient playthrough. Pokemon classified as Untiered are Pokemon that are unobtainable outside of the games.

Why is a Pokémon in a certain tier?

Pokemon are ranked under the following 5 criteria:

Availability - Based on how early and probability that the Pokemon is found in the game. Does it require backtracking, HM moves, or other specific requirements such as constant searching? A Pokemon found earlier and with little effort is often better than those found later in the game.

Typing - A Pokemon's typing can be critical for an efficiency playthrough. How does the typing match-up work against the entire game? If a Pokemon has better typing it is often considered a higher rank.

Stats - A Pokemon's stat distribution is important for a Pokemon's success. Does the Pokemon have a stat distribution that compliments the Pokemon's movepool and typing? If a Pokemon has a stat distribution that favors its typing and movepool it will often be higher on the tier list. In general a Pokemon that is often slower than it is faster will be ranked lower on a tier list.

Movepool - A Pokemon's movepool (both Level-up and TM/HM) are crucial for a Pokemon. What moves does the Pokemon naturally get and can possibly obtain? Moves that require usage of rare TMs often have high opportunity costs and cannot be guaranteed on the Pokemon unless it has a very good reason to use the TM (such as having STAB or a high offensive stat).

Major Battles - Major battles consist of Gym Leaders, Team Rocket encounters, Rival encounters, the Elite 4, and Red. How does the Pokemon contribute to major battles? A Pokemon that contributes to many major battles will often be seen higher than those that do not.

What tools are allowed for the player to use?

The player is allowed to use any legitimate means within the cartridge for completing the game efficiently. This excludes exploits such as the cloning glitch and the Celebi glitch. The player is only allowed to trade to evolve Pokemon and not to receive outside help otherwise. The player is allowed to use items such as X Items, Potions, TMs, and Berries. Bear in mind that items have opportunity costs associated with them and can still contribute to a Pokemon negatively if it requires a multitude of items. Though X Items are implied that they can be used, please refrain from using them in arguments until this thread is settled. You are free to add notes about X Items; however, they will not be considered until the issue is cleared.

Note that Pokemon are not penalized for being outclassed by something in a much higher tier. For example, Cyndaquil does not penalize Growlithe in a Growlithe vs Oddish comparison.

Tier List Key

() will signify a note for that Pokemon.

  • (C) - Pokemon is ranked based off of Pokemon Crystal.
  • (S) - Pokemon is ranked based off of Pokemon Silver.
  • (G) - Pokemon is ranked based off of Pokemon Gold.
  • (GS) - Pokemon is ranked based off of Pokemon Gold and Silver.
  • (GC) - Pokemon is ranked based off of Pokemon Gold and Crystal.
  • (SC) - Pokemon is ranked based off of Pokemon Silver and Crystal.
  • (Trade) - Pokemon is ranked based off of trading for its evolution.
  • (No Trade) - Pokemon is ranked based off of no trade accessible to the player (this does not include in-game trades).
  • * - Possible tier placement that can change based off of RNG scenarios.

Note that Pokemon may be listed multiple times for this reason. This also includes instances with Smoochum (C) and Jynx. Also note that if a Pokemon cannot be caught in a certain version that it is implied that the Pokemon is ranked based off of the version it is available only (will probably change this once everything is settled in).
S Tier:
- Abra (Trade)
- Spearow
- Totodile

A Tier:
- Abra (No Trade)
- Cyndaquil
- Gastly (Trade)
- Geodude (Trade)
- Geodude (No Trade)
- Ho-oh (G)
- Lugia (S)
- Magikarp
- Magmar (GS)
- Mareep (GS)
- Miltank
- Nidoran F
- Nidoran M
- Psyduck
- Suicune (C)
- Tauros
- Teddiursa (C)
- Wooper

B Tier:
- Chinchou
- Eevee (Espeon)
- Girafarig (GS)
- Jynx
- Lapras
- Machop (Trade)
- Pidgey
- Poliwag (Poliwrath)
- Poliwag (Trade)
- Rattata
- Seel
- Sentret
- Slowpoke (Slowbro)
- Slowpoke (Slowking)
- Stantler
- Sudowoodo
- Tentacool

C Tier:
- Aipom
- Bellsprout (C)
- Celebi
- Chikorita
- Cubone (C)
- Doduo
- Drowzee
- Eevee (Umbreon)
- Entei*
- Goldeen
- Growlithe (C)
- Heracross
- Ho-oh (S)
- Hoothoot
- Horsea (Trade)
- Krabby
- Lugia (GC)
- Machop (No Trade)
- Magnemite
- Mankey (GS)
- Mantine
- Marill (C)
- Oddish (Bellossom)
- Onix (Trade)
- Pinsir
- Poliwag (No Trade)
- Qwilfish
- Raikou*
- Remoraid (GS)
- Sandshrew
- Scyther (Trade)
- Scyther (No Trade)
- Skarmory (SC)
- Snorlax
- Snubbull
- Teddiursa (G)
- Tyrogue (C)
- Venonat
- Zubat

D Tier:
- Bellsprout (GS)
- Caterpie
- Dratini
- Dunsparce
- Eevee (Flareon)
- Eevee (Vaporeon)
- Ekans
- Exeggcute
- Farfetch'd
- Gligar (GC)
- Growlithe (G)
- Hoppip
- Horsea (No Trade)
- Jigglypuff
- Koffing
- Lickitung
- Marill (GS)
- Meowth
- Natu
- Oddish (Vileplume)
- Onix
- Paras
- Phanpy (SC)
- Pichu (C)
- Pineco
- Ponyta
- Rhydon (In-Game Trade)
- Rhyhorn
- Shellder
- Sneasel (C)
- Spinirak (GC)
- Staryu
- Suicune (GS)
- Sunkern
- Swinub
- Tangela
- Togepi
- Voltorb
- Vulpix (S)
- Weedle

E Tier:
- Aerodactyl
- Chansey
- Clefairy
- Cleffa (C)
- Corsola
- Cubone (GS)
- Delibird (SC)
- Diglett
- Ditto
- Eevee (Jolteon)
- Electabuzz
- Elekid (C)
- Gastly (No Trade)
- Grimer
- Ho-oh (C)
- Houndour
- Igglybuff (C)
- Kangaskhan
- Larvitar
- Ledyba (SC)
- Magby (C)
- Magmar (C)
- Misdreavous
- Mr. Mime
- Murkrow
- Pikachu
- Porygon
- Shuckle
- Slugma
- Smeargle
- Smoochum (C)
- Sneasel (GS)
- Tyrogue (GS)
- Unown
- Wobbuffet
- Yanma

Untiered:
- Articuno
- Bulbasaur
- Celebi
- Charmander
- Kabuto
- Mew
- Mewtwo
- Moltres
- Omanyte
- Squirtle
- Zapdos


Discussion

Discussion is currently focused on S and A Tier Pokemon only at this time. We will discuss other tiered Pokemon as we move along.

Write-Ups

As custom for tier lists we eventually write up a small segment for each Pokemon and then upload the tier list to our database on Smogon's website. Write-ups should look like this:

Code:
[IMG]<Crystal Sprite Image URL>[/IMG]
[B]Name
Availability:[/B] When does this Pokémon become available? Is it easy or hard to encounter?
[B]Stats:[/B] Describe how a Pokémon's stats make it excel. Is it a deadly sweeper or a strong wall? Discuss why you would use this Pokemon thank to its stats.
[B]Typing:[/B] Discuss this Pokémon's typing in a sentence or two. Is its STAB efficient or not, does it have any great resistances or glaring weaknesses?
[B]Movepool:[/B] Describe this Pokémon's movepool in a few sentences. Does it have many effective movepool options through level up? Is it over reliant on TM's to function? Does it have access to useful HM's to help you traverse the region?
[B]Major Battles:[/B] Describe how the Pokémon handles the major opponents throughout the game. Notable opponents and battles include the Gym Leaders, battles against various members of Team Rocket, the various rival battles, the Elite Four themselves, the Champion, and Red.
[B]Additional Comments:[/B] Discuss any miscellaneous information not covered in other sections here. Factors such as experience growth, abilities, and other lesser characteristics can be discussed here. The entry can be wrapped up here as well.
 
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Oglemi

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Secret Boss Mod
#5
I don't think Chikorita should even be in B tier for the original GSC games. It's literally limited to Razor Leaf until you get Earthquake or Return/Body Slam for damage output (and then much later Giga Drain or god forbid SolarBeam), which means it gets shit on by the first 2 Gyms, Bayleef is basically useless against Miltank, gets stomped by Morty, and is only finally useful against Chuck and all the Surfing, which is more than a quarter of the way through the game. Then it gets shit on Pryce (kinda) and Claire. Not to mention Grass STAB is terrible against Team Rocket (Poison, Flying, Fire all ubiquitous) and the millions of Zubat you face through the game.

The only thing Chikorita has going for it is a lot of bulk and Reflect/Light Screen, meaning it doesn't just puss out and can tank a few things, which can be nice for getting time to medicine the rest of the team. It'll also win a lot of disadvantageous matchups due to dumb computer AI, but if you're looking to just spam moves and run through the game, Chikorita is a piss poor way of going about it.

In the same vein I don't think /any/ Grass-type should be above C tier for said above reasons (though none are currently listed which is good). Grass-types only finally become useful once you get to Kanto and they get to thrash Brock, Misty, and Lt. Surge.
 
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atsync

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon
#6
Let's get this one finished.

I have to admit that this list is...quite a bit different than the one I would have put together.

I don't think Normal-types are being valued as much as they should be valued. I've always felt that Normals are great in GSC because they have access to great moves early on like Headbutt (available in endless supply from Goldenrod so the impact of Pokemon on the same team competing for the same TM is lessened) and Return (I'll admit that it isn't assured that Return will be available right away, which is bad for Normals that can't learn Headbutt in the meantime). I've always found them to be useful route-sweeping Pokemon and many of them can hold their own in many gyms just on the power of their STABs. Tauros and Spearow being the only ones above C tier is a bit disappointing to me. I think Crystal Teddiursa and even Aipom are better than where they're listed now, for instance.

I probably wouldn't have ranked the odd egg Smoochum, Magby and Elekid as highly as you have either, but that depends on how much you dislike the fact that you relying on the RNG to get the one you want (you can at least "screen" the egg my checking the message on the status screen when you first get the egg since those 3 and Tyrogue have different messages from Pichu, etc., but that still leaves a 1/4 chance) and then spending the time hatching the egg hoping it's the one you're aiming for and grinding a Pokemon from level 5 to at least the 16-18 range. But they are solid once you reach that point though, especially since you can give all of them the right elemental punch for a powerful STAB.
 
#7
Some quick ideas:

Cyndaquil down from A to B: the period from learning Ember (L12) until Flame Wheel (L31) is too long and leaves Quilava very mediocre in its duration. Headbutt is actually its strongest move when nothing can be hit neutrally, and Dig offers additional coverage of the same power as Ember.

Magmar up from B to A. Unlike Quilava, doesn't have a mediocre period and can be taught Fire Punch and Thunderpunch the moment it is caught, which makes it capable of handling its main weakness - water-types. Gets Flamethrower naturally 19 levels earlier than Typhlosion (Typhlosion is likely never getting it until we beat the game).

Scizor down from B to C. You can't actually evolve your Scyther efficiently (i.e. without farming Magnemites for a Metal Coat) until Kanto. And even if you do, its movepool is very shallow. Fury Cutter is your only bug-type STAB, and you don't get Steel Wing until Rock Tunnel. Scyther is probably a bit better because it gets STAB from Wing Attack (kinda late at L30).

Tradeless Poliwag has no place in B. Even with Crystal's availability, it's too mediocre in spite the enormous advantage water-types have over others in this game in terms of movepool. What value are Earthquake and Ice Punch with offensive stats of 65/50/90?

Ironically, in contrast to our recent debate, Geodude could stand to rise. Its type matchups are just too good in much of the game. There are even good switch-ins for it in fights like Clair and Lance, and it tanks a half of Red's team. Not afraid of Rockets at all, either. It's slow however, and doesn't learn a good rock-type STAB, so I'd argue it should be in A tier assuming you add an S tier for Abra/Totodile/some others. I also don't think there's a big qualitative difference between Graveler and Golem here, as Graveler seems to do fine in the matchups that were made for him.

Drowzee down from B. Hypno's special attack has been nerfed and Psychic is acquired at L49 / learnt as a TM in Kanto. Its offence is very mediocre.

Red Gyarados up to A. No need to look for it or train your Magikarp. Joins at a high level. Loses his advantage a bit in Kanto, with no physical STAB and no Earthquake access, but still good enough for A.

Snorlax to B for his Kanto performance alone. Give him Curse and sweep Red.

Sudowoodo up for Rock-typing being good in the game and for having innate (in this game, meaning you don't breed for it) Rock Slide very early. Mandatory encounter too.

Tauros up to A definitely. Great speed and attack. Catch with a Friend Ball for massive damage Returns (applies to other normals as well, and some non-normals too).

Miltank up from C for having a better movepool than Tauros in spite of having poorer attack.

Magnemite could go up from C if you do sacrifice your cash for the Thunder TM. But yeah, its movepool is pretty bad here.

Machops are too low, both variants.

Wooper is a water-type with early Earthquake access (and Sludge Bomb but who cares). Up to B.

Natu is p terrible. Down to D.

Staryu (C) can evolve early with a Water Stone with some clock/phone manipulation. Movepool isn't hot as expected from GSC but the combo of speed and power is good even if it is using just Surf and Icy Wind until the "postgame". A IMHO.

Other Pokemon who benefit from getting their evolution stone early would be Vaporeon, Flareon, Exeggcute (movepool still sucks though), Vileplume.

Heracross is too low in C. Endure+Reversal can sweep powerful trainers, Earthquake is great on it, and Megahorn is really strong in the end/postgame. Attacking with Strength/Return will generally outdamage many of your STABs because the attack stat is that high.

Tradeless Gastly is worthless. Down to D. The one with the trade could rise to A considering Gengar has an awesome typing and learns all three punches by TM. If you play until Red, the time spent as Gastly isn't as bad anymore.

Zubat is too low in D. Catch an underlevelled Golbat in the wild with a Friend Ball, use it in some gyms and give it some levels and it evolves. Have it sweep things with Fly and Return at overkill speed. B easily, A not being out of the way.

I've used Qwilfish before and it's way too good for D. Heavy hitter with Surf and Sludge Bomb/normal-type moves.

Aipom, Sneasel, Houndour and Tyrogue are probably not bad enough for E. The former two hit decently hard (Sneasel is great to use against Will and Sabrina, and Red's Espeon), while the latter two can feasibly catch up to the party in level, and Kanto is so easy that you might not even have to switch.

I probably wouldn't have ranked the odd egg Smoochum, Magby and Elekid as highly as you have either, but that depends on how much you dislike the fact that you relying on the RNG to get the one you want (you can at least "screen" the egg my checking the message on the status screen when you first get the egg since those 3 and Tyrogue have different messages from Pichu, etc., but that still leaves a 1/4 chance) and then spending the time hatching the egg hoping it's the one you're aiming for and grinding a Pokemon from level 5 to at least the 16-18 range. But they are solid once you reach that point though, especially since you can give all of them the right elemental punch for a powerful STAB.
Could you give more details about the egg message? I didn't know that before.

Also mirroring atsync's thoughts on the Crystal odd egg and Teddiursa + some waters like Tentacool being too low.
 

atsync

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon
#8
Could you give more details about the egg message? I didn't know that before.
I just double-checked and I think I made a mistake. I could have sworn that Pichu, Cleffa and Igglybuff started with the "It moves around inside sometimes. It must be close to hatching." while the others started with "Wonder what's inside? It needs more time, though." but now I think they all start with the latter (although Pichu and co. change message slightly sooner due to having slightly fewer egg cycles - 21 vs. 26). My bad, not sure how I thought otherwise.

But then that just makes getting the desired Odd Egg Pokemon even harder.
 
#9
I wholeheartedly agree with some of Lucchini's suggestions. Wooper is extremely good. Early evolution, great dual-STAB, learns Earthquake by level-up (so you'll end with Surf/Earthquake/Ice Punch/whatevs) and has solid stats. B-tier at least.
Miltank is way too good to C. Excellent bulk, fast, good Attack, has Milk Drink, large coverage options like Shadow Ball and Earthquake...B-tier imo.
 

Colonel M

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#10
God dammit I just woke up.
Let's get this one finished.

I have to admit that this list is...quite a bit different than the one I would have put together.

I don't think Normal-types are being valued as much as they should be valued. I've always felt that Normals are great in GSC because they have access to great moves early on like Headbutt (available in endless supply from Goldenrod so the impact of Pokemon on the same team competing for the same TM is lessened) and Return (I'll admit that it isn't assured that Return will be available right away, which is bad for Normals that can't learn Headbutt in the meantime). I've always found them to be useful route-sweeping Pokemon and many of them can hold their own in many gyms just on the power of their STABs. Tauros and Spearow being the only ones above C tier is a bit disappointing to me. I think Crystal Teddiursa and even Aipom are better than where they're listed now, for instance.
This I confess is -slightly- my fault because, at first, I'm like "all these things get is STAB Headbutt which is good but only lasts for so long".

Then I forgot... ironically when I got to Tauros that STAB Headbutt is still pretty damn strong and it's about the best you got.

Though Crystal Teddiursa is a pain in the ass I can rise some of the Normal-types as I have no real objections against it. What I think is:

- Tauros A
- Snorlax B
- Miltank B
- Snubbull B
- Teddiursa (C) to B
- Teddiursa (G) to C only because it comes much later
- Raticate to B?
- Aipom to maybe D or C (though let's be fair on this one - it probably won't last too much longer since it doesn't evolve and it doesn't learn anything spectacular otherwise).
- Jigglypuff to B

Should cover most of them. Furret I probably could rise too but it's a little weaker than some of its Normal-type brethren. Lickitung comes pretty late and is a lot weaker in comparison too so it probably could still stay in D.

One thing that helps is they have a diverse TM line-up. Just sucks that the TMs in this game are so whack and some have a really high demand (Dig and Earthquake especially).
I probably wouldn't have ranked the odd egg Smoochum, Magby and Elekid as highly as you have either, but that depends on how much you dislike the fact that you relying on the RNG to get the one you want (you can at least "screen" the egg my checking the message on the status screen when you first get the egg since those 3 and Tyrogue have different messages from Pichu, etc., but that still leaves a 1/4 chance) and then spending the time hatching the egg hoping it's the one you're aiming for and grinding a Pokemon from level 5 to at least the 16-18 range. But they are solid once you reach that point though, especially since you can give all of them the right elemental punch for a powerful STAB.
That's kind of how I saw it (also Hitmonlee will give you an edge against Jasmine / Pryce too). They're kind of a pain to catch back up to the team but they have a pretty fast EXP gain to help them out too. Basically - might suck to hatch and not get the one you want, but it can still fill a Pokemon slot without too much hassle just to see. Also - if Magmar is going to A / S Magby is a good addition for Crystal as otherwise you're stuck with Cyndaquil and Growlithe for Fire-types.
Some quick ideas:

Cyndaquil down from A to B: the period from learning Ember (L12) until Flame Wheel (L31) is too long and leaves Quilava very mediocre in its duration. Headbutt is actually its strongest move when nothing can be hit neutrally, and Dig offers additional coverage of the same power as Ember.
Actually Dig does do a little more damage than Ember IIRC (due to the Zephyr badge you get a boost of 9 then divided by 8 for Attack. Don't ask me why it's just how the game did it). Flame Wheel is kind of long but Typhlosion also brags having a good movepool as well once it arrives (ThunderPunch, Earthquake, said Dig, Dynamicpunch, Iron Tail). Also remember that Cyndaquil has a leg up on its competitor (Magmar) for being able to handle Bugsy before it arrives (though one gym it's a pretty strong lead when it does well in normal routes and so-so against Falkner). I wouldn't worry too much past Gym 8 as you should be able to buy Fire Blast in the Goldenrod Game Corner (this in theory also helps Magmar too). You get some Nuggets and if you choose to use something to help you find it like our articles Nuggets are pretty plentiful.
up from B to A. Unlike Quilava, doesn't have a mediocre period and can be taught Fire Punch and Thunderpunch the moment it is caught, which makes it capable of handling its main weakness - water-types. Gets Flamethrower naturally 19 levels earlier than Typhlosion (Typhlosion is likely never getting it until we beat the game).
Considering I may make an S Tier I think GS Magmar will end up there instead of A. It's just way too damn good to leave behind and a player that started Chikorita (why?) or Totodile gets a great partner.
down from B to C. You can't actually evolve your Scyther efficiently (i.e. without farming Magnemites for a Metal Coat) until Kanto. And even if you do, its movepool is very shallow. Fury Cutter is your only bug-type STAB, and you don't get Steel Wing until Rock Tunnel. Scyther is probably a bit better because it gets STAB from Wing Attack (kinda late at L30).
Yeah Metal Coat is too late naturally. Though I would like to point out that Scizor learns Metal Claw naturally at Level 30 and is probably one of the better Steel-types you can get in the game (which is why I did put it in B - Steel Wing late really blows though).
Tradeless Poliwag
has no place in B. Even with Crystal's availability, it's too mediocre in spite the enormous advantage water-types have over others in this game in terms of movepool. What value are Earthquake and Ice Punch with offensive stats of 65/50/90?
To be fair something that does help with Poliwag line is they get Rain Dance naturally at Level 25 - so their SpA seems a little less detrimental when your Surfs and Bubblebeams are hitting really damn hard. Probably will agree with you and keep it in C - though if I make S Tier B might be okay (Crystal Poliwag is helpful in tight situations like Union Cave which are littered with Fire- / Rock- / Ground-types).
Ironically, in contrast to our recent debate, Geodude could stand to rise. Its type matchups are just too good in much of the game. There are even good switch-ins for it in fights like Clair and Lance, and it tanks a half of Red's team. Not afraid of Rockets at all, either. It's slow however, and doesn't learn a good rock-type STAB, so I'd argue it should be in A tier assuming you add an S tier for Abra/Totodile/some others. I also don't think there's a big qualitative difference between Graveler and Golem here, as Graveler seems to do fine in the matchups that were made for him.
Considering I may add S Tier, Geodude (both) would likely rise to A. Rollout is kind of mediocre for a Rock-type STAB but it is better than nothing and Geodude naturally has Defense Curl to boost its base power to a decent level (60 BP after Defense Curl and first Rollout). This makes the missing scenario a little more forgiving too.
down from B. Hypno's special attack has been nerfed and Psychic is acquired at L49 / learnt as a TM in Kanto. Its offence is very mediocre.
C it is.
Red Gyarados
up to A. No need to look for it or train your Magikarp. Joins at a high level. Loses his advantage a bit in Kanto, with no physical STAB and no Earthquake access, but still good enough for A.
This one I'm rather nervous about though. One thing that helps is that Gyarados (Red Gyarados specifically from here on out) does help the team. It's a great HM Slave for starters and its offense can help you for a while in your quest. I think the problem with Gyarados is beyond a certain point it's really horrible to train. Yes, Gyarados has a monstrous Attack stat but what does it really have to abuse with it? Return? Strength? Thrash? Hyper Beam is really late at Level 50 and Hydro Pump, though a helpful boost, still runs off of 70 base Special Attack (which I want to coincidentally remind you that is equivalent to Hypno's). I may consider A due to its near-free utility it can provide throughout a portion of the game but, even as an avid Gyarados fan, I probably wouldn't really use Gyarados too much past a certain point in GSC. I guess it learns Curse - but that's not until after the E4 and there are far better candidates for it.
to B for his Kanto performance alone. Give him Curse and sweep Red.
Yeah agreed. Level 50 and access to STAB Body Slam rocks.
Sudowoodo
up for Rock-typing being good in the game and for having innate (in this game, meaning you don't breed for it) Rock Slide very early. Mandatory encounter too.
Since I'm adding S it probably will go to B.
up to A definitely. Great speed and attack. Catch with a Friend Ball for massive damage Returns (applies to other normals as well, and some non-normals too).
Already being done. Though one minor note - Friend Ball does have the issue of having real-life time being used to be made. Green Apricorns aren't obtained until Route 42 either. The reward is high but I'm not really sure about how efficient that is. At least in scenarios like the Game Corner - the backtrack would be done after a certain point and doesn't take much real-time.
up from C for having a better movepool than Tauros in spite of having poorer attack.
Note one minor thing - Special Attack is still 40 so its advantages are so-so (IIRC that leaves DynamicPunch, Shadow Ball, Rollout). May rise it to A. We'll see.
Magnemite
could go up from C if you do sacrifice your cash for the Thunder TM. But yeah, its movepool is pretty bad here.
I can't remember what point you really can get it though. I owuld guess after Claire for sure, but can you possibly get enough money by the Radio Tower scenario? I guess if you can C Magnemite I might be able to buy (to be fair Magnemite is a God against Team Rocket and Thundershock works okay for a little while).
are too low, both variants.
Need a little more explanation on this one since, past Whitney, they have on-and-off matchups:

- Well against Whitney.
- Shit against Morton unless you have Dig.
- Average on Chuck - probably wouldn't use it here.
- Well against Jasmine.
- Well against Price.
- Horrid against Team Rocket. Only real advantage is against Scientists' Magnemites and Porygon and Grunt's Ratattas. Oh and Executive's Houndour / Houndoom I guess.
- No real perk against Claire.
- Horrid against Wil.
- So-so against Koga but you need Dig / Earthquake to really cover your ground.
- So-so against Bruno based off of being a bulkier Fighting-type.
- Well against most of Karen's Pokemon (Vileplume is a no-go, Gengar needs Dig / EQ really).
- Wouldn't fathom to use it against Lance.

After the E4:

- Works against Lt Surge's Magneton.
- Well against Brock.
- So-so against Misty. Beats Lapras but Starmie Machamp has no real business (mainly due to STAB being NFE).
- Trashy against Erika.
- Trash against Sabrina.
- Probably would win Jasmine with Dig / Earthquake.
- I guess Blaine is a so-so matchup. Probably in favor of Machop.
- Usable against Blue.

Rival matchup Machop beats Sneasel and Magneton while losing to Golbat and Haunter (could beat Haunter with Dig / Earthquake). Does average against the starters too.

Finally Red Machop has an advantage against Snorlax and Lapras but also has a disadvantage against Venusaur, Charizard, and Espeon.

Guess Machop (Trade) is good for B and Machop (No Trade) is good for C. Any other thoughts?
is a water-type with early Earthquake access (and Sludge Bomb but who cares). Up to B.
Level 35 is so-so but I guess works. 65 SpA is kind of trashy but Surf is still really strong.
is p terrible. Down to D.
65 for Psychic? Yeah. D.
Staryu (C)
can evolve early with a Water Stone with some clock/phone manipulation. Movepool isn't hot as expected from GSC but the combo of speed and power is good even if it is using just Surf and Icy Wind until the "postgame". A IMHO.

Other Pokemon who benefit from getting their evolution stone early would be Vaporeon, Flareon, Exeggcute (movepool still sucks though), Vileplume.
Probably could look into these since the phone manipulation probably doesn't take too much (never did it before though). Probably would keep Vileplume with Bellossom since Vileplume has STAB Sludge Bomb.
Heracross
is too low in C. Endure+Reversal can sweep powerful trainers, Earthquake is great on it, and Megahorn is really strong in the end/postgame. Attacking with Strength/Return will generally outdamage many of your STABs because the attack stat is that high.
One really big problem with Heracross is that Reversal is really late in the game IMO (Level 44, though plausible at least once you're in Johto and somewhat with the E4, is still pretty late). Not having anything to really work with aside from a high Attack stat (though valuable) kind of hurts too. I might etch it on a test list.
Tradeless Gastly
is worthless. Down to D. The one with the trade could rise to A considering Gengar has an awesome typing and learns all three punches by TM. If you play until Red, the time spent as Gastly isn't as bad anymore.
Yeah. Agreed. No reason.
is too low in D. Catch an underlevelled Golbat in the wild with a Friend Ball, use it in some gyms and give it some levels and it evolves. Have it sweep things with Fly and Return at overkill speed. B easily, A not being out of the way.
I would say Zubat is a little better around the C area than B. Remember - getting the Friend Ball requires real-time and backtracking. The same would likely happen in situations with raising friendship (Massages, vitamins lying around, walking, etc). Thankfully it doesn't require much to evolve, but depending on when you catch it greatly affects its tier placement. Learning Wing Attack at Level 30 isn't doing it any favors either.
I've used Qwilfish before and it's way too good for D. Heavy hitter with Surf and Sludge Bomb/normal-type moves.
This one I agree with. Might stick with C for now but B is looking likely. Only issue is the rarity of catch and generally how late it arrives.
Aipom, Sneasel, Houndour and Tyrogue are probably not bad enough for E. The former two hit decently hard (Sneasel is great to use against Will and Sabrina, and Red's Espeon), while the latter two can feasibly catch up to the party in level, and Kanto is so easy that you might not even have to switch.
Aside from Aipom for a moment, these three have a lot of problems on their own. Sneasel, for example, is basically relying on TMs (Shadow Ball, Return, DynamicPunch) for its attacks. While it can do well against Psychic-types based off of immunity there are only a few situations that it even does modest on. Else it's really crappy since its Ice- and Dark-type moves, the moves it should excel in, come off of an abysmal 35 SpA stat. Iunno about you but Sneasel I find is super situational. I think it probably could rise to D but that's about it.

Houndour is way too damn late. Come on it comes at Level, what, 18 by the time we're in Kanto? Kanto really isn't that long and to catch up with the party likely requires too much effort for so-so reward. Again, maybe D at worst but we're pushing it here.

Tyrogue is kind of plagued with a rather long backtrack and only having so-so matchups later in the game (Bruno's Onix, Brock, Lt Surge's Magneton, Blaine's Magcargo, Blue's Rhydon). Even as Hitmonlee you're only getting so far here. Maybe if it learned Reversal earlier or Dig / Earthquake I probably would be more lenient on it.
Also mirroring atsync's thoughts on the Crystal odd egg and Teddiursa + some waters like Tentacool being too low.
Probably will put Tentacool up since I forgot Sludge Bomb is rather early in this game anyway.
I don't think Chikorita should even be in B tier for the original GSC games. It's literally limited to Razor Leaf until you get Earthquake or Return/Body Slam for damage output (and then much later Giga Drain or god forbid SolarBeam), which means it gets shit on by the first 2 Gyms, Bayleef is basically useless against Miltank, gets stomped by Morty, and is only finally useful against Chuck and all the Surfing, which is more than a quarter of the way through the game. Then it gets shit on Pryce (kinda) and Claire. Not to mention Grass STAB is terrible against Team Rocket (Poison, Flying, Fire all ubiquitous) and the millions of Zubat you face through the game.

The only thing Chikorita has going for it is a lot of bulk and Reflect/Light Screen, meaning it doesn't just puss out and can tank a few things, which can be nice for getting time to medicine the rest of the team. It'll also win a lot of disadvantageous matchups due to dumb computer AI, but if you're looking to just spam moves and run through the game, Chikorita is a piss poor way of going about it.

In the same vein I don't think /any/ Grass-type should be above C tier for said above reasons (though none are currently listed which is good). Grass-types only finally become useful once you get to Kanto and they get to thrash Brock, Misty, and Lt. Surge.
Fair analysis. Was putting it in B to be generous. C it is.

So what would happen maybe so far is this:

S Tier:
- Abra (both)
- Totodile
- Magmar

These three (four) really stand far above the rest of the Pokemon that proceed it. Totodile is arguably your best starter while Abra is just a nuke in-game with elemental punches and faster learning Psychic-type attacks at its disposal. Magmar is probably one of the stronger Fire-types with a solid access to ThunderPunch to troll around Water-types as well as Psychic later on for some minor shenanigans. Best of all, though, is Sunny Day at Level 33 to bolster Magmar's strength even further with STAB Fire Punch. Usable 95 Attack is great too since Return is a fine filler for it.

Debatable are the Nidorans. They join later but their premises remain the same.

A Tier:
- Adding -
- Tauros
- Geodude (Both)
- Miltank

At first I thought B for Miltank but A is really enticing for it. Great moves that it can learn via TM (though a high cost - Miltank makes it worthwhile) while learning nice STAB moves naturally on its own. Milk Drink can make it tank attacks like a champ and it still has a good Attack / Speed stat.

Also note that Cyndaquil will still reside in A. It may rise to S but I need to see how fast Fire Blast comes first.

Also other notes:

- Teddiursa (C) to B
- Poliwag (No Trade) to C
- Wooper to B
- Chikorita to C
- Snubbull to B

etc. etc.

Want more discussion on:

- Houndour
- Sneasel
- Tyrogue
- Experience with Thunder / Blizzard / Fire Blast accessibility
- Heracross
- Zubat
- Other Normal-types that may need to rise.
 
#12
- Tauros A
- Snorlax B
- Miltank B
- Snubbull B
- Teddiursa (C) to B
- Teddiursa (G) to C only because it comes much later
- Raticate to B?
- Aipom to maybe D or C (though let's be fair on this one - it probably won't last too much longer since it doesn't evolve and it doesn't learn anything spectacular otherwise).
- Jigglypuff to B

Should cover most of them. Furret I probably could rise too but it's a little weaker than some of its Normal-type brethren. Lickitung comes pretty late and is a lot weaker in comparison too so it probably could still stay in D.

One thing that helps is they have a diverse TM line-up. Just sucks that the TMs in this game are so whack and some have a really high demand (Dig and Earthquake especially).
Furret is at least as good as Raticate since it gets elemental punches and Surf while Raticate doesn't. Raticate's early Hyper Fang isn't such a lasting advantage since you get Headbutt before gym 3 and Strength before gym 4, and their availability is very high. Both of them are pretty bad in important fights, too, so I'd keep both of them in C personally.

Raticate vs Furret vs Aipom comparison

Raticate 55/81/60/50/70/97
Furret 85/76/64/45/55/90
Aipom 55/70/55/40/55/85

Aipom learns the punches (but not Surf), much like Furret, but with a base sp. atk. it's questionable whether you wouldn't just use Return instead. It also loses/ties in every stat if we compare these three to each other. You need to shake trees for it and it's not there for 2 gyms so maybe it could be a tier below Raticate/Furret, in D, but they're mostly quite comparable.

Jigglypuff is also kind of a scrub; B is too high for it. I'd rather let Stantler in for having pretty good offensive stats.

Dig isn't in very high demand since it only has a BP of 60, but it should be better than other options at the time you get it when hitting a weakness.

That's kind of how I saw it (also Hitmonlee will give you an edge against Jasmine / Pryce too). They're kind of a pain to catch back up to the team but they have a pretty fast EXP gain to help them out too. Basically - might suck to hatch and not get the one you want, but it can still fill a Pokemon slot without too much hassle just to see. Also - if Magmar is going to A / S Magby is a good addition for Crystal as otherwise you're stuck with Cyndaquil and Growlithe for Fire-types.
Riding the bike back and forth is time-consuming even with VBA's super-fast turbo, and if you fail to get the desired baby, you've wasted a lot of time. I think you're underestimating the opportunity cost of this, and the low probability odds of getting the right egg.

Yeah Metal Coat is too late naturally. Though I would like to point out that Scizor learns Metal Claw naturally at Level 30 and is probably one of the better Steel-types you can get in the game (which is why I did put it in B - Steel Wing late really blows though).
There's really no good steel or dark types in the game, though, so that's not saying a whole lot. If you evolve before L30 then you've been farming Magnemites. 1 Magnemite out of 12 carries the item, and they have a 20% encounter rate, so that's, on average, 70 Pokemon to encounter until you get one. You're also likely not catching every Magnemite you see, and if you return when you have the Thief TM from Mahogany Hideout, it's underlevelled.

To be fair something that does help with Poliwag line is they get Rain Dance naturally at Level 25 - so their SpA seems a little less detrimental when your Surfs and Bubblebeams are hitting really damn hard. Probably will agree with you and keep it in C - though if I make S Tier B might be okay (Crystal Poliwag is helpful in tight situations like Union Cave which are littered with Fire- / Rock- / Ground-types).
You can get the Rain Dance TM as soon as you can Surf, so it's an advantage shared by all waters. Still takes a turn, and Poliwhirl still has one of the weakest Surfs without neat advantages like having a powerful Sludge Bomb or a good defensive typing.

Considering I may add S Tier, Geodude (both) would likely rise to A. Rollout is kind of mediocre for a Rock-type STAB but it is better than nothing and Geodude naturally has Defense Curl to boost its base power to a decent level (60 BP after Defense Curl and first Rollout). This makes the missing scenario a little more forgiving too.
You can also just keep Rock Throw. I keep one on my Gravelers all the way until Red.


This one I'm rather nervous about though. One thing that helps is that Gyarados (Red Gyarados specifically from here on out) does help the team. It's a great HM Slave for starters and its offense can help you for a while in your quest. I think the problem with Gyarados is beyond a certain point it's really horrible to train. Yes, Gyarados has a monstrous Attack stat but what does it really have to abuse with it? Return? Strength? Thrash? Hyper Beam is really late at Level 50 and Hydro Pump, though a helpful boost, still runs off of 70 base Special Attack (which I want to coincidentally remind you that is equivalent to Hypno's). I may consider A due to its near-free utility it can provide throughout a portion of the game but, even as an avid Gyarados fan, I probably wouldn't really use Gyarados too much past a certain point in GSC. I guess it learns Curse - but that's not until after the E4 and there are far better candidates for it.
It has great matchups against the last four Johto gyms (besides Thunderbolt Magnemites and Dragonair) and its high bases carry it into the E4. 70 base sp. atk. is pretty good (Feraligatr gets 79 and less physical attack). Kanto's not particularly hard for it to have a problem there. It's kinda like FE6 Percival.

Already being done. Though one minor note - Friend Ball does have the issue of having real-life time being used to be made. Green Apricorns aren't obtained until Route 42 either. The reward is high but I'm not really sure about how efficient that is. At least in scenarios like the Game Corner - the backtrack would be done after a certain point and doesn't take much real-time.
The real-time could be spent sleeping, working or studying, so it isn't such a huge issue. Not much of an opportunity cost for the rewarding outcome IMHO.

Note one minor thing - Special Attack is still 40 so its advantages are so-so (IIRC that leaves DynamicPunch, Shadow Ball, Rollout). May rise it to A. We'll see.
Yeah, Shadow Ball is the main boon, and you get it when half of the game's ghosts have been killed in Morty's gym. Rollout is pretty decent when you're so fast, I guess, and you do get it with Defence Curl learnt. Could sweep some physical gyms/elites given they don't resist rock.

I can't remember what point you really can get it though. I owuld guess after Claire for sure, but can you possibly get enough money by the Radio Tower scenario? I guess if you can C Magnemite I might be able to buy (to be fair Magnemite is a God against Team Rocket and Thundershock works okay for a little while).
I think if you even considered Scizor for B, then Magnemite should be a clear B. Great typing all game long, and Thunder should come soon enough. Electric-weaks seem to be all over the place too, like in most games.

Machop for B/C (depending on trade) seems reasonable, though I'd remind you in general that neither Rockets nor the Rival are foes to be taken seriously. Machamp using Strength cleans up all of their hideout mooks.

I would say Zubat is a little better around the C area than B. Remember - getting the Friend Ball requires real-time and backtracking. The same would likely happen in situations with raising friendship (Massages, vitamins lying around, walking, etc). Thankfully it doesn't require much to evolve, but depending on when you catch it greatly affects its tier placement. Learning Wing Attack at Level 30 isn't doing it any favors either.
I always get Crobat around L21 or so. It learns Fly before Wing Attack. No Sludge Bomb until next gen is upsetting though, but Crobat has powerful Returns by definition. The backtracking is like 30 seconds on a bike with Repels, so I don't see why it's not securing a spot in B, especially in a game with 16 gyms.

This one I agree with. Might stick with C for now but B is looking likely. Only issue is the rarity of catch and generally how late it arrives.
I tend to have a Qwilfish by gym 2 on my runs so availability isn't a big enough concern really.

I'd personally leave Chikorita in B, as it's hard to kill, offers good support if your team has weaknesses and its offence is actually passable if you teach it any ground or normal type moves. Perfect availability, too. It doesn't impress much, but that's what B-tier is for.

Snubbull probably isn't good enough for B. High attack and early evolution into Granbull, but really slow without having a good typing like Geodude or Magnemite. At least Ursaring is fast enough to outspeed just about any mook, hits just as hard and also has adequate special offence comparable to the likes of Nidoking.

The Nidos are also good candidates for A tier.
 
#13
Houndour should probably stay in E. It comes a good thirty levels under you at minimum as a Kanto-only Pokemon, and that's assuming you run to Route 7 as soon as you get off the boat (at night). It has a couple of good gyms in Kanto (Sabrina and Erika) but even after that it's got a lot of catching up to do and it's in the Slow experience group to boot.
 

Colonel M

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#14
Furret is at least as good as Raticate since it gets elemental punches and Surf while Raticate doesn't. Raticate's early Hyper Fang isn't such a lasting advantage since you get Headbutt before gym 3 and Strength before gym 4, and their availability is very high. Both of them are pretty bad in important fights, too, so I'd keep both of them in C personally.

Raticate vs Furret vs Aipom comparison

Raticate 55/81/60/50/70/97
Furret 85/76/64/45/55/90
Aipom 55/70/55/40/55/85

Aipom learns the punches (but not Surf), much like Furret, but with a base sp. atk. it's questionable whether you wouldn't just use Return instead. It also loses/ties in every stat if we compare these three to each other. You need to shake trees for it and it's not there for 2 gyms so maybe it could be a tier below Raticate/Furret, in D, but they're mostly quite comparable.
Actually that is kind of close in stat comparison (Aipom being a little worse). Sure, I'll knock him to D instead.
Jigglypuff is also kind of a scrub; B is too high for it. I'd rather let Stantler in for having pretty good offensive stats.
Considering the randomness on Moon Stone I'll buy it.
Dig isn't in very high demand since it only has a BP of 60, but it should be better than other options at the time you get it when hitting a weakness.
The bigger problem with Dig is mostly that a lot of Pokemon could still use the move. We talked a little about Machop, but there are Pokemon like Nidos and Sandshrew who like the STAB, Geodude wouldn't mind consistency (but can live with Magnitude), Cyndaquil likes the move but isn't needed, Mankey likes it, and Steelix (though this one is kind of shoddy to argue) could use it. Excluding Steelix and Cyndaquil we have some prominent users of the move and there are more. Thankfully Phanpy and Donphan doesn't learn the move. Just imagine the competition in Crystal then lol.
Riding the bike back and forth is time-consuming even with VBA's super-fast turbo, and if you fail to get the desired baby, you've wasted a lot of time. I think you're underestimating the opportunity cost of this, and the low probability odds of getting the right egg.
Consider that the trainer picks up the egg and continues the journey as normal and wait until it hatches. That's pretty much how it would work. If it's a Pokemon the trainer wants he / she would keep it. Else, no real time was lost and the Pokemon is deposited. I believe if done like this and through normal progress of the game you probably would end up around Ecruteak City / maybe a little further out. The grind is so-so, but some of these Pokemon (Magby) can be real worthwhile. I'll see in my quickish Crystal playthrough.
There's really no good steel or dark types in the game, though, so that's not saying a whole lot. If you evolve before L30 then you've been farming Magnemites. 1 Magnemite out of 12 carries the item, and they have a 20% encounter rate, so that's, on average, 70 Pokemon to encounter until you get one. You're also likely not catching every Magnemite you see, and if you return when you have the Thief TM from Mahogany Hideout, it's underlevelled.
Yeah fair enough. Drop to C.
You can get the Rain Dance TM as soon as you can Surf, so it's an advantage shared by all waters. Still takes a turn, and Poliwhirl still has one of the weakest Surfs without neat advantages like having a powerful Sludge Bomb or a good defensive typing.
Sure. I'll drop it. Mainly it was for earlygame and some leverage midgame but obviously we know by about... I would say Pryce it probably peters out.
You can also just keep Rock Throw. I keep one on my Gravelers all the way until Red.
I'd probably roll with Defense Curl / Rollout / Rock Throw / Magnitude (and eventually, Earthquake) on Geodude anyway. Maybe DynamicPunch if you feel cheesy. Aside from oddities like Strength or Curse it really doesn't have a big movepool.
It has great matchups against the last four Johto gyms (besides Thunderbolt Magnemites and Dragonair) and its high bases carry it into the E4. 70 base sp. atk. is pretty good (Feraligatr gets 79 and less physical attack). Kanto's not particularly hard for it to have a problem there. It's kinda like FE6 Percival.
It's also true you can catch it relatively early in the game if you go straight from Ecruteak to obtain Surf then to Lake of Rage. Sure, we'll put him in A.
The real-time could be spent sleeping, working or studying, so it isn't such a huge issue. Not much of an opportunity cost for the rewarding outcome IMHO.
This one sort of depends on how we evaluate the player him / herself. It's likely true that the player isn't going to finish this game in one setting (unless they're nuts), but I probably would be careful to assume too much could happen simply due to real time and such. Overall Friend Ball is considered I guess, but reliance on it might be another issue that we could discuss.
Yeah, Shadow Ball is the main boon, and you get it when half of the game's ghosts have been killed in Morty's gym. Rollout is pretty decent when you're so fast, I guess, and you do get it with Defence Curl learnt. Could sweep some physical gyms/elites given they don't resist rock.
Yeah, and a lot of them really don't. Will doesn't and neither does Koga. Bruno I think is the only trainer that really resists Rollout. Probably wouldn't try it on Clair - paralysis is nasty and a fully paralyzed Miltank increases the chances of Rollout not building up.
I think if you even considered Scizor for B, then Magnemite should be a clear B. Great typing all game long, and Thunder should come soon enough. Electric-weaks seem to be all over the place too, like in most games.
Definitely want more input, but I'll buy that B Magnemite (excluding Scizor) is pretty possible.
Machop for B/C (depending on trade) seems reasonable, though I'd remind you in general that neither Rockets nor the Rival are foes to be taken seriously. Machamp using Strength cleans up all of their hideout mooks.
I think the only real Pokemon that Machamp would struggle against 2HKOing is Koffing (while leveling) and Weezing due to their high Def. I don't know about 2HKOing Grimer though. But I'll go B Machop (Trade) / C Machop (No Trade). Boosted Exp helps it too.
I always get Crobat around L21 or so. It learns Fly before Wing Attack. No Sludge Bomb until next gen is upsetting though, but Crobat has powerful Returns by definition. The backtracking is like 30 seconds on a bike with Repels, so I don't see why it's not securing a spot in B, especially in a game with 16 gyms.
So I'm assuming this is either around Ice Path or Whirl Islands (probably Whirl Islands since it's a bit more convenient to catch. So this would mean after beating Pryce and Chuck. Which leaves Jasmine, the Radio Tower, then continual progression of the game.

- Golbat has no advantage over Jasmine. It's a flat loss.
- Aside from what you mentioned about Rocket Grunts being scrubs Golbat is so-so against them until it can learn Wing Attack / Fly. Though it resists all the Poison-types and has a neutral move to cover its bases that's about it. There are also some like Scientists Magnemite that kind of blow to face. Eh.
- No real advantage versus Clair. Fly and Return kind of hurt.
- Has an edge against Will's Exeggutor.
- Has an edge against Koga's Venomoth, Ariados, and I believe Forretress.
- Only struggles against Bruno's Onix (big deal) and maybe Machamp because of Rock Slide.
- Does decently against Karen due to Karen's weaker Def Pokemon (bar Umbreon).
- Doesn't really pick off much against Lance.

Kanto:

- Zapped by Surge.
- Steel Wing can help against Brock. To an extent.
- Average against Misty.
- Probably beats Jasmine purely on level gap and immunity to Toxic.
- I guess it could beat a little on Sabrina since a lot of her Pokemon are physically frail and Crobat should be faster while capable of surviving Psychic once.
- Blaine is good up until Magcargo.
- Beats Red's Exeggutor and Red's Venusaur. Else... eh.

Like its power is okay. It seems about average in comparison though. Anyone else aside from Lucchini could back up Zubat? Don't want to underball it too much but for now I'll put it to C and am open to hear about B (if no one really responds we can conclude with a test maybe).
I tend to have a Qwilfish by gym 2 on my runs so availability isn't a big enough concern really.
The only reason I ask about this is because I noticed Qwilfish seem to appear in "Swarms". The exception is Super Rod. Then again I -did- mention Marill and Snubbul (both which are common in swarms).
I'd personally leave Chikorita in B, as it's hard to kill, offers good support if your team has weaknesses and its offence is actually passable if you teach it any ground or normal type moves. Perfect availability, too. It doesn't impress much, but that's what B-tier is for.
Maybe with the tier split it might seem okay there, but currently Machop would be moving to B which probably does leaps and bounds better than Chikorita does (most Grass-types blow in Johto barring rare scenarios). Having some support is nice, but it lacks one that probably would keep it in B Tier IMO (Leech Seed). Reflect is situationally useful (like probably against Whitney and maybe Morton?)
Snubbull probably isn't good enough for B. High attack and early evolution into Granbull, but really slow without having a good typing like Geodude or Magnemite. At least Ursaring is fast enough to outspeed just about any mook, hits just as hard and also has adequate special offence comparable to the likes of Nidoking.
Yeah. Probably can just go to C.
The Nidos are also good candidates for A tier.
I currently have them in A, though Crystal Nidos could probably be S (maybe in GS pending on when you can get Moonstone in Tohjo Falls - after Surf or after Waterfall).
 

atsync

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon
#15
For what it's worth, Poliwag can be obtained before Union Cave in ALL versions. In Gold/Silver, you can get the Old Rod and backtrack to the ponds in Violet City to fish it up (15% encounter rate). So availability shouldn't really come into account much when comparing Poliwag in the different versions.

(You can also get Goldeen (Union Cave), Krabby (Cherrygrove City) and Tentacool (Route 32) this way).

Sneasel may need split entries by version. GS Sneasel can't be obtained until Mt. Silver, making it worthless. In Crystal, it's in Ice Cave so it's more useful, but is probably still poor.

Consider that the trainer picks up the egg and continues the journey as normal and wait until it hatches. That's pretty much how it would work. If it's a Pokemon the trainer wants he / she would keep it. Else, no real time was lost and the Pokemon is deposited. I believe if done like this and through normal progress of the game you probably would end up around Ecruteak City / maybe a little further out. The grind is so-so, but some of these Pokemon (Magby) can be real worthwhile. I'll see in my quickish Crystal playthrough.
Ehh I'm still not convinced they should be as high as you have them, but I'll wait until you test this before commenting properly. Ecruteak sounds optimistic (even Togepi can take ages to hatch and that requires fewer steps), but it might be doable as long as you don't purposely skip stuff that's not required. The fact that Crystal forces you to go to the Sudowoodo first before getting the Squirtbottle in Goldenrod should help with the steps I guess.

I currently have them in A, though Crystal Nidos could probably be S (maybe in GS pending on when you can get Moonstone in Tohjo Falls - after Surf or after Waterfall).
After Surf.
 

Colonel M

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#16
Yeah I'll be sure to keep a close eye on the egg part. As for tier changes:

Aipom - D
Drowzee - C
Gastly (No Trade) - D
Gastly (Trade) - A
Geodude - A
Gyarados - A
Machop (No Trade) - C
Machop (Trade) - B
Miltank - A
Natu - D
Nidoran F - A
Nidoran M - A
Poliwag (No Trade) - C
Qwilfish - C
Scizor - C
Sneasel (C) - D
Sneasel (GS) - E
Snorlax - B
Snubbull - C
Suddowoodo - B
Tauros - A
Teddiursa (C) - B
Tentacool - B
Wooper - B
Zubat - C

S Tier will now house
Abra (Both)
Totodile
Magmar
Ho-oh (G)
Lugia (C)

Debatable - Cyndaquil (Esp Crystal)

I have been sidetracked due to fixing a computer. If I missed any of the Pokemon I listed above let me know.
 
#17
The bigger problem with Dig is mostly that a lot of Pokemon could still use the move. We talked a little about Machop, but there are Pokemon like Nidos and Sandshrew who like the STAB, Geodude wouldn't mind consistency (but can live with Magnitude), Cyndaquil likes the move but isn't needed, Mankey likes it, and Steelix (though this one is kind of shoddy to argue) could use it. Excluding Steelix and Cyndaquil we have some prominent users of the move and there are more. Thankfully Phanpy and Donphan doesn't learn the move. Just imagine the competition in Crystal then lol.
Nidos can't learn Dig until generation 3 actually, which is one of the reasons I'd be against Nidos in S-tier personally.

I don't think the competition for a 60 BP move would be all that high even with Phanpy learning it (it's not such a good mon and definitely can't be expected to be in play since it's not GS Magmar), but it's true that it has some good use when first obtained - so many Pokemon can hit the ghosts in Morty's gym hard, and you can repeatedly prevent Miltank from racking up big Rollout damage by using Dig to force whiffs.

For Machop, Dig isn't a necessity because it can still strike things like Magnemites super-effectively with its main STAB. Same with Mankey. Steelix really wants it though.

Consider that the trainer picks up the egg and continues the journey as normal and wait until it hatches. That's pretty much how it would work. If it's a Pokemon the trainer wants he / she would keep it. Else, no real time was lost and the Pokemon is deposited. I believe if done like this and through normal progress of the game you probably would end up around Ecruteak City / maybe a little further out. The grind is so-so, but some of these Pokemon (Magby) can be real worthwhile. I'll see in my quickish Crystal playthrough.
If you don't bike-grind the egg on purpose, I doubt you'll get it earlier than Goldenrod Radio Tower. After all, Johto has a small map and Fly allows you to go from Cianwood to Mahogany really quickly.

Elekid/Magby/Smoochum are all superb though. Remember that they all have 0 IVs however.

This one sort of depends on how we evaluate the player him / herself. It's likely true that the player isn't going to finish this game in one setting (unless they're nuts), but I probably would be careful to assume too much could happen simply due to real time and such. Overall Friend Ball is considered I guess, but reliance on it might be another issue that we could discuss.
Look at it this way - if the player is progressing really quickly in real-time due to the emulator functions like turbo, he can also force the balls to be produced within 5 seconds by messing with the computer's clock. Somebody playing on cart (mine no longer work :( ) will probably take a rest some time after the 2nd/3rd gym.

Yeah, and a lot of them really don't. Will doesn't and neither does Koga. Bruno I think is the only trainer that really resists Rollout. Probably wouldn't try it on Clair - paralysis is nasty and a fully paralyzed Miltank increases the chances of Rollout not building up.
Don't forget Lance with his team of six rock-weak fliers. Only Aerodactyl is faster, and he targets Miltank's strongest, Defence Curl-boosted, stat.

Definitely want more input, but I'll buy that B Magnemite (excluding Scizor) is pretty possible.
I might try testing Magnemite on some other run. Also, evolving Onix is probably a better idea than evolving Scyther. Steelix's typing is far superior to Graveler's, which says a lot in this game, letting it have completely safe matchups against many trainers, and it actually has good STABs to use, unlike Scizor. A tier downgrade from A to B for the Magnemite farming requirement maybe?

So I'm assuming this is either around Ice Path or Whirl Islands (probably Whirl Islands since it's a bit more convenient to catch. So this would mean after beating Pryce and Chuck. Which leaves Jasmine, the Radio Tower, then continual progression of the game.
It's much earlier actually - you only need to be able to Surf. In Crystal, it's even better - so much that it's a silly idea to make anybody besides Crobat your flier of choice IMHO. Golbats lurk in Mt Mortar, the immediately accessible levels of it, at L13 and with a good encounter rate, catchable right after Whitney. One Friend Ball thrown and you're already sitting at 200 happiness, 20 points away from evolution (it will level hella fast, which is why I was talking about evolving in the early 20s) and with an instant 80+ power Return. Suitable in Chuck's gym and probably the best flier available to you (better than Fearow), with a good defensive typing.

I also really question Lugia/Ho-Oh in S tier. They take time to get to and catch, and if you want to not be destroyed, you'll only catch it after you're done with every Johto gym, so that you have Elm's Master Ball. Best fighters available to you though.
 

Colonel M

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#18
Lugia and Ho-oh may be available a little later than most Pokemon in S Tier but, when you think about it, theyre still available for a good portion of the game (Kanto saga, E4, Victory Road). Ho-oh and Lugia are also strong as noted with rather decent attacks in their arsebal (Fly / Sacred Fire for Ho-oh and Rain Dance + Hydro Pump and Aeroblast for Lugia).
 
#19
Then Suicune (C) should be at least A-tier. Good offensive presence, with one of the strongest Surfs (pumped with Rain Dance), can tank hits like a champ, fares extremely well against the Elite 4, has Aurora Beam which completely wrecks Lance... S-tier is maybe too high, but B is too low.
 

Colonel M

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#20
Then Suicune (C) should be at least A-tier. Good offensive presence, with one of the strongest Surfs (pumped with Rain Dance), can tank hits like a champ, fares extremely well against the Elite 4, has Aurora Beam which completely wrecks Lance... S-tier is maybe too high, but B is too low.
Yes agreed. I actually did plan to do this but forgot to move him up in the process (crashed hard drives Op). Will fix soon.
 

Mekkah

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#21
Why are we talking as if Poliwag is so nerfed if you can't trade it? If you can't get Politoed, just evolve it to Poliwrath and go to town with that.

I don't think Cyndaquil deserves to be in A while the legendaries chill in S. I'm okay with Abra and Totodile being a tier higher and Magmar I've never tried, but Cyndaquil is just so much more available. I understand its issues (Ember is weak, gym matchups aren't too great), but he's being compared to Pokémon that aren't around until after the Radio Tower and Gym 7, right? A good portion of that Cyndaquil does have access to Flame Wheel. He also trivializes Bugsy, he can be a part of a slow Miltank kill (Smokescreen), he's good against Jasmine and Pryce, and even with Headbutt/Ember he's good enough to cut through generic trainers.

Cyndaquil beats the legendaries by an availability of ~7 gyms and a bunch of routes inbetween. The legendaries are around for a single gym, Elite Four, and then Kanto which is a joke. Like, Kanto gyms shouldn't even be worth half of Johto gyms, and there's a lot less trainers there. You can argue that Typhlosion only has one favorable mon to fight vs Red, but the same goes for Ho-oh. Lugia isn't even much better off.

Magikarp and Red Gyarados are two entirely different beasts, I think, and need seperate entries.
 
#22
Why are we talking as if Poliwag is so nerfed if you can't trade it? If you can't get Politoed, just evolve it to Poliwrath and go to town with that.
He is nerfed in Gold/Silver where the telephone stones are inaccessible.

I don't think Cyndaquil deserves to be in A while the legendaries chill in S. I'm okay with Abra and Totodile being a tier higher and Magmar I've never tried, but Cyndaquil is just so much more available. I understand its issues (Ember is weak, gym matchups aren't too great), but he's being compared to Pokémon that aren't around until after the Radio Tower and Gym 7, right? A good portion of that Cyndaquil does have access to Flame Wheel. He also trivializes Bugsy, he can be a part of a slow Miltank kill (Smokescreen), he's good against Jasmine and Pryce, and even with Headbutt/Ember he's good enough to cut through generic trainers.
Cyndaquil's gym matchups are mostly really good actually, maybe a little worse than Totodile's. Some of the points you make are true, but Cyndaquil is still inferior to the big trinity, so it's most likely the legendaries who should fall rather than Cyndaquil rising. The comparison between Totodile and Cyndaquil doesn't end favourably for Cyndaquil.

Cyndaquil beats the legendaries by an availability of ~7 gyms and a bunch of routes inbetween. The legendaries are around for a single gym, Elite Four, and then Kanto which is a joke. Like, Kanto gyms shouldn't even be worth half of Johto gyms, and there's a lot less trainers there. You can argue that Typhlosion only has one favorable mon to fight vs Red, but the same goes for Ho-oh. Lugia isn't even much better off.
Typhlosion beats Venusaur, can take on Charizard and Pikachu
Ho-Oh and Lugia... can take on everyone? Perfect candidates for Curse, can be taught moves to help them against any specific matchup.

Ho-Oh and Lugia are also noticeably superior to Typhlosion in the E4, and against Blue (the only difficult Kanto gym leader). What is Typhlosion doing against Lance for example?

But availability (and backtracking) is probably a significant enough factor to drop the legends a tier down.

Magikarp and Red Gyarados are two entirely different beasts, I think, and need seperate entries.
If Magikarp is part of a small enough team (of two permanent members, let's say), he can evolve before Whitney and feasibly beat Miltank, then Bite the ghosts in Morty's gym. He also doesn't have Red Gyarados's problem of being hard to catch, and you can go ahead and do the western portion of the region first since that's where the Fly HM is acquired. The additional availability somewhat compensates for the painful period of training, but I'd still probably pick Red Gyarados any day.

I wouldn't agree with them being different mons though... In RSE, would you have different tiers for Wurmple and Silcoon for example? After lv. 20, it's already the same mon.
 

Mekkah

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#23
I agree that legends dropping down is more logical than Cyndaquil moving up. Cyndaquil is noticeably worse than Totodile.

Typhlosion beats Venusaur, can take on Charizard and Pikachu
Ho-Oh and Lugia... can take on everyone? Perfect candidates for Curse, can be taught moves to help them against any specific matchup.
Thinking about it more, yeah they are significantly better against Red and Blue, but it doesn't change my overall opinion that they should not be a tier above Cyndaquil.

If Magikarp is part of a small enough team (of two permanent members, let's say), he can evolve before Whitney and feasibly beat Miltank, then Bite the ghosts in Morty's gym.
I think Magikarp's problems are more apparent in a 2-man team than anywhere else. Any mon with reasonable stats/moves would be so overleveled in such a context that they would beat the game a lot more quickly than if you were to slow down to bait and switch with Magikarp. You're not even fighting L20 Pokémon for a long time (other than Miltank) so it takes forever and a half to evolve an earlygame Magikarp. Some Pokémon that are a tier below like Machop (Trade) wipe the floor with that since they catch up in no time with just one favorable gym.

But on a bigger team you're less overleveled so stat differences are more likely to matter along the way.

I wouldn't agree with them being different mons though... In RSE, would you have different tiers for Wurmple and Silcoon for example? After lv. 20, it's already the same mon.
If you were able to get a L20 Dustox at some point in the game then yes, though since Dustox is kind of shit it'd still be a different case. I think in RBY, Dugtrio is a bit of a different mon compared to Diglett because it's so ridiculously overleveled and overpowered whereas Diglett is "just good".
 

Colonel M

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#24
On the contrary Im not really sure why we deny Cyndaquil for S Tier. One example is that it is one of the only (reasonable) Fire-types in the game for Crystal and, despite having mediocre moments, still can stand out. As previously noted Cyndaquil has some great gym matchups (Bugsy, Jasmine, at least beats Pryce's Piloswine, blows Erika, can blow Blaine with Earthquake, etc) and still has some value in the E4 (knocks Exeggutor / Vileplume / Venomoth / Ariados / Forretress / Jinx / Charizard / soso vs Crobat Xatus and Murkrow / can pick off Houndoom with Earthquake or Dig).

I mean I agree in starter departments Totodile is usually superior but I think in some cases Cyndaquil can be a big outlier on certain matchups (much like Totodile versus someone liKe Lance). Not to completely disown Totodile but when you think about it the gym matchups for it arent crushing Cyndaquil's that hard (Morty, Jasmine's Steelix, Pryce's Piloswine, Claire, Lance, somewhat Will and Karen due to their mixed typings, Brock, Blaine). A minor cost to Typhlosion IMO is access to Fire Blast through Game Corner and Ember being so so for a while. Surf by Morty is a huge lifesaver for Tots though.
 

Mekkah

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#25
One example is that it is one of the only (reasonable) Fire-types in the game for Crystal
I don't think this is too great of an argument without investigating in depth the demand for such a Fire-type. Bug and Grass mons both have a lot of weaknesses, some of which are very accessible. Steel might have a lot of resistances but it's neutral to Surf and it's not a very common opponent type. Ice is very rare and when you do find it it's often dual typed with Water. Like the mons you named in the Elite Four, I don't think a mon deserves a lot of credit for being able to take out Ariados.

A minor cost to Typhlosion IMO is access to Fire Blast through Game Corner
Since you mentioned it, Earthquake too.
 

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