Gen 2 GSC OU Viability Ranking Thread V2

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Sandstorm sounds like a cool option until you realize it hits your own mons, meaning you need more rock/steel/ground types than it's worth.

I got ahead of myself with smeargle, C+ is fine.

Yay, you encored the switchin into an attacking move. Time for recover loops! 70/82 from lax's DE and 50/59 from BS means lax has a good chance to outpace Recover, and should honestly be the only thing switching in bar dark-types. It doesn't even hit Lax or Kou twice with psychic without sacrificing itself (kou's thunder also does 50/59). It's true it consistently hits stuff for high damage - as I said, 135 off 368 - but it just doesn't have the bulk to get in enough to use it. Encore's 8 PP is also super easy to play around.

I'll trust borat's opinion on sandslash, not like anybody else has experience with it lol.

Thanks for restoring hope for Meganium, I'm for keeping it at C- at the moment, probably changing to C+ or D depending on just how effective and resilient it is, which is now more or less depicted as "enough".

Amphy doesn't deserve a rank. I already debunked DPunch and DPunch+TWave, which means the only niches left are holding Light Screen, TWave and Fire Punch. TWave and screens are frankly done better by Zap despite the different typing, while Fire Punch + HP Water/Ice/Grass isn't a big enough niche to keep it ranked. People overhype "mono-electric typing + things that zap has but kou doesn't".

Forretress can also lure cloy with toxic, and Encore is just that - cute. I don't see any point where I would want to choose Donphan over something else because mono-ground typing + encore.

I've also been thinking a bit about Slowbro to D. One-turn recovery, growl, thunder wave, I think it was OU for a small stint once upon a time, and there's probably a reason behind that not called metagame trends. While people certainly overhyped it, its capabilities are probably not unfounded. At least should be ranked along the lines of Venusaur.

edit: rip slack off then. Was still ou for a bit and everything else still applies, although now I'm less sure.
 
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Isa

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I've also been thinking a bit about Slowbro to D. One-turn recovery, growl, thunder wave, I think it was OU for a small stint once upon a time, and there's probably a reason behind that not called metagame trends. While people certainly overhyped it, its capabilities are certainly not unfounded. At least should be ranked along the lines of Venusaur.
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Slack_Off_(move)
Slack Off (Japanese: なまける Slack Off) is a non-damaging Normal-type move introduced in Generation III.
 

Mr.E

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tbh I legit didn't know that Sandstorm did 1/8 in gen 2 way to be

It's still really bad though.
 

Jorgen

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sandstorm isn't really worth it. i maintain that omastar is the best setter of it, but the pool of things it can switch into is just too small, and a lot of the time you'd rather use toxic or reflect or haze anyway. i'd suggest keeping omastar off the list.

also why is ursaring still listed? ursaring is ass, completely outclassed by kanga and lax.
 
Okay, update time:

Raises:
Smeargle C- -> C+

Drops:
Alakazam C- -> D (as a compromise, I still want it unranked but I'm okay with it in D)
Ampharos D -> Unranked (honestly zap does light screen/dual screens better despite the different typing, and Fire Punch + HP isn't a good enough niche to be ranked)
Donphan D -> Unranked (Jorgen and BKC gave one-liner arguments for Encore/Toxic while everyone else is fine with dropping, 2-3 on my count so it gets dropped)
Ursaring D -> Unranked (cool option and hella strong, but 4th best normal curser and doesn't really pull its weight)

Still needs some discussion:
Misdreavus B+ -> B-
Umbreon B+ -> B- (both of these got a 3-3 tie, I'd rather get more opinions than just simply dropping them)
Jolteon B- -> B+ (I brought it up and it got no attention, obv not gonna raise it due to my single yes vote)

Some additions to the slate:
Gengar A+ -> A- (Not as versatile as it seems. PTrap is a gimmick, has a "standard" set of thunder[bolt]/ice punch/DPunch or hypnosis/explosion or dbond. Still has a lot of stuff to play with, definitely high if not the highest A-, but not A+ meterial)
Golem C+ -> C- (combines lix and rhydon with the ability to beat firelax + boom on stuff, so a solid niche, but the chances a team will need that niche is so goddamn small, especially since rhydon's BL anyway, that it doesn't seem like C+ material)

I also kinda want Kangaskhan to drop to C-, but I know I'm going to be in the minority here so w/e
 
i think smeargle should be at most 1 rank below jolteon. they really belong on the same teams anyway. jolteon has more utility outside a pure bp team, but smeargle plays a much bigger role inside a bp team.

i'm ok with smeargle c+/b-, and jolteon b-. i don't think jolteon is anywhere near b+, ESPECIALLY if umbreon/missy are joining it.

and i think zapdos is good enough where you can make the snorlax argument. being completely redundant with zapdos (as in strictly inferior) does not disqualify it from competitive play. but personally ampharos is something i'd never use except on gimmicks. but then again everything in d feels that way.

gengar in a- was something i brought up in the beginning, sort of stand by it. i'm probably biased.

as for kanga, i think a lot of vets have personally had their asses handed to them by a surprise kanga. especially some 8-10 years back when the set wasn't as set in stone. at least i have. everyone thought skarm + miltank gave them perfect curse coverage. then you had the cursedrumlax knocking a hole in that. and kanga also exposed that even more. so being beat by one leaves me appreciating it a bit. i mean even on paper it still seems really strong. seems like one of the better stall team breakers. it's probably going to suck shit against most offensive teams, but when you anchor on 4-5 mostly defensive mons and a drumlax, you probably won't have a great time against something like kanga. and i think that's where it really shines, against the skarm+miltank matchup, with another useless mon like starmie or something. you really run out of answers for kanga. it's not like skarm+miltank+starmie is a weird trio or anything.
 
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I don't think I completely understand the first sentence of your Amphy argument, could you please elaborate?

The second sentence I agree with, although the argument is mainly due to the possibility of running both alongside each other, which sounds decent until you realize that zap is probably the better screener, leaving amphy with either its pitiful HP + FPunch niche or a shitty Raikou. Zap screens + twave amph sounds legit though.

And yeah, that's the big argument vs. a lot of the lower-ranked stuff; they're just too low of a quality to find themselves in the highest level of play, even if they technically hold a niche. For the case of Entei, Sandslash, and Venusaur, they're setup sweepers and therefore undergo different criteria; not about what niche they hold, but about how many things they need removed, their consistency in setting up, the consistency of the overall sweep, and their possible usefulness outside of setting up, as well as how close they are to another sweeper. In that sense, I disclude them from "this technically has a niche but is so low quality it's not worth it", and think of them more as "they can pull off sweeps in high-level play, but just barely", which is why I haven't already nixed them.
 

Mr.E

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Venusaur isn't even a setup sweeper, or at least not a very good one. It's an annoying Grass-type lump with a slightly different skillset than Meganium.
 
the snorlax argument being, everything is an exception when it comes to snorlax. so while in most cases, being a strictly inferior version of another pokemon basically means it's unusable in ou play, being a strictly weaker version of snorlax doesn't necessarily mean that (see the plethora of normals that are playable). zapdos is good enough where being a strictly inferior zapdos doesn't disqualify it either based on that notion alone.

venusaur's most viable unique set is probably growth, hp ice, sleep powder, giga drain. as far as "set up sweepers" go, this is quite good. a lot better than return on curselax anyway.
 
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Alright, I didn't make the connection. I take back what I said before, zap + amph is legitimate as long as you keep amph to its niche (carrying one of twave/light screen). Though I have no experience using it, so I can't really comment on its quality. The stats bar speed look solid though. If someone can prove that it can hold its own in competitive play, I'll re-rank it.

As for venu, I tried it out on an extended version of the Mt. Silver CCaT (lax/venu/ttar/cune/egg/lix), and it honestly surprised me. There's a strong snowball effect with Growth boosting your recovery along with damage, and it has uses outside of a sweep. I would be completely comfortable with bringing it to a tour. Then again, it's not like I get quality matches at ultra-high PS ladder, so my experience may or may not be applicable to high-level play.

For stuff that work against some teams and fail flat-out against others like kang, or niche sweepers like slash, they're more for counter-styling opponents. You bring kang if your opp has a history of using skarm/steelix/miltank/umbreon on stall as their setup answers, and you bring slash if your opp has a history of using giga egg as their primary ground answer, etc. They're terrible ladder mons, since you don't know what to expect and they have a strong chance of putting you at 5-6 turn 1, but when given the chance, they pull their weight several times over (at least for kang, can't talk for slash). Which is why they're ranked, and why I personally want Kang in C-.
 
the niche kanga occupies cannot be compared to the one sandslash is in. the fact that you used giga drain egg as an example is bewildering. and i never say bewildering.

and the fact that you used the phrase "5-6 turn 1" means you have no idea how sandslash is meant to be played.

i think they should stay where they are until you get more input from people that actually play with/against these pokemon. and i've beat a LOT of people using sandslash. it's quite good. you outspeed a lot of things marowak doesn't. in fact, i'd happily say i have more first-hand experience with sandslash [and venusaur] than everyone else combined. i've always like shitty pokemon that aren't that shitty, but are still pretty shitty (see clefable). you definitely need to play sandslash without agility pass and without sub to be effective though. you need 3 attacks, and the freedom to chip your own counters. you also need good enough prediction to recover off leftovers (what it has over marowak). what you get in return is better speed matchup vs vap/egg (pretty popular i think), and to a lesser extent ttar/machamp/umbreon. also you can cheese counter for the ohko on zapdos. not ranking sandslash is not understanding gsc.

entei is the most gimmicky thing in d tier (it's a softer-hitting moltres with solarbeam, or a tankier houndoom without stab pursuit), whereas the 3 other have justifiable niches. but entei has really good stats, and any special attacker that puts a dent in snorlax means something.

personally i'm ok with c- and d, but at the same time i don't think anyone cares enough to put any thought into clarifying or explaining why.

i think smeargle should be in whichever tier jolteon is in. the "impact" argument comes into play here. sure he's not on any team outside of bp, but he's easily the most important/defining pokemon of bp teams. you don't necessarily use him at all during team building, but you sure as hell consider him. sort of a skarm/suicune argument here. usage statistics fail to grasp this. what other pokemon in C defines a team archetype on its own? charizard? please.
 
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I was just under the impression that slash's niche was lefties + outspeeding egg to HP Bug, which is why I mentioned giga egg. I also have no experience using kang or slash. so my bad on those.

Agreed on entei. Can still 3HKO lax with spikes bar misses if SD is up, and has actual bulk, but 8 PP sucks.
 

Mr.E

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I suppose you can still technically put Sandslash to use the same as you would in RBY, it's faster than all the other Groundmons, but Rock STAB is more important now that Zapdos isn't forced out by Electric immunity and Skarm is a thing. Golem and Rhydon are still okay. Sandslash gets Leftovers over Marowak, and outspeeds a few useful things, but the lack of power is too noticeable. Cool, it outspeeds Vaporeon, and also deals 50% instead of OHKOing. Cloyster and Suicune still outspeed. It can't break Skarm and you have less freedom to fire off unboosted attacks on the switch because Sandslash has the versatility of Marowak and friends (i.e. none) but the attack power of Nidoking and co. It doesn't even 3HKO Zapdos switching into Rock Slide.

Entei is about as relevant as Moltres.
 

dom

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bump, i guess. anyways, i'm nominating nidoqueen for c- because in my opinion it's a cool mon with a nice typing, but what i like it for most is its incredible movepool. when i've used it, it's not been for offensive purposes, instead for a defensive role. some of this movepool includes lovely kiss, moonlight, charm, reflect, roar, seismic toss, counter, growl (if you need more ways to beat cursemons), thief, and a bit more. there's also a great variety of offensive options it has if you want to lure in something. the reason i'm nominating for c- and not anything higher is because of its defensive move incompatibilities, and as an offensive mon nidoking just outclasses it. it's nice glue though so i'd like to see it ranked somewhere. not d though because i don't agree with it being "only capable of doing their specific task". c+ would be pretty cool as well but that's not really what i'm really aiming for.
 
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I don't think so. Just because Nidoqueen is the best pokemon in UU doesn't mean that translates at all well in the OU metagame. None of her strengths carry over.

It's like if WNBA players have to play in the NBA, it doesn't matter if the best players in the WNBA are tall centers, cause they're still gonna be completely outclassed in the NBA. The WNBA players that would do well are probably the perimeter jump shooters, the more niche pokemon. Nidoqueen has a lot of good going for her in UU, but OU is just a different ballgame.
 

Mr.E

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Nidoqueen isn't better than Nidoking, but it's still mostly the same thing and Nidoking is an upper-tier mon. You'll never see it used in OU because you want that speed tie with other Nidokings (and Suicune), and I can only imagine the power difference is noticeable when Nidoking relies so heavily on hitting type weaknesses and barely 3HKOing a lot of stuff as it is, but objectively speaking Nidoqueen is probably superior over half of C and below. It does leverage Nidoking's unique defensive typing a little better.
 

Jorgen

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Nidoqueen misses out on some critical damage ranges that make Nidoking so good. Ice Beam needs basically all max rolls to 3HKO Zapdos for instance. As does Thunder on Suicune. Thunder on Starmie isn't a sure bet. And EQ 4HKO on Lax after Spikes on the switch is a lot less likely.

If you just look at the numbers & movepools out of context, there isn't too much different between them. But in context, Nidoqueen falls pretty short of being a good OU Poke, especially when she's trying to be Nidoking. A defensive set with Roar and Moonlight makes much better use of Nidoqueen's talents (tanking Zapdos like a champ, monster defenses in general), although it's still pretty mediocre:

Nidoqueen @ Leftovers
-Earthquake
-Roar
-Moonlight
-Body Slam
 
I'm sorry, but everyone forgot that Berserk Gene exists strictly in Gen II, (consumable 1x use item only held by Mew), and basically acts as a self-inflicted Swagger.

Why is this helpful?

Jolteon discourages Skarmary, Suicune, and other pHazers that threaten traditional physical set-uppers, Jolteon encourages EQ but discourages Electric and Steel attacks due to it's typing.
Jolteon also discourages Ice attacks from Water Pokemon and if a Rock/Ground type switches in as it Baton Passes, you can be sure that the recipient has the right coverage moves (like Earthquake).

With Jolteon drawing in EQ, but discouraging Electric and Steel (and Ice attacks from Water-types because Water-types switch out) it is the perfect partner to a Miracle Berry Aerodactyl, whom is weak to Ice, Steel, and Electric attacks that Jolteon discourages the foe from using upon the Baton Pass.

*Keep in mind Jolteon can also be paired with or other fast physical attackers like Tauros, etc. that can sweep by Turn 2 with a +2 Attack stat, without needing to use Swords Dance, then Baton Pass, then attack (Turn 3). Also, when you use a move like Swords Dance, the foe switches to Skarmary, but with a Pokemon like Jolteon, you can Baton Pass without using a moveslot or turn on Swords Dance, and it wont be expected on a Special sweeper to pack a physical punch.

Jolteon @ Berserk Gene
Ability: Volt Absorb
- Baton Pass
- Thunderbolt
- Substitute
- Hyper Beam/Hidden Power Grass

Keep in mind key characteristics: Fastest Baton Passer, Hyper Beam hits off of it's Attack, not Special Attack stat (taking advantage of the Beserk Gene boost) if you don't want to pass right away (like use Hyper Beam on Blissey)., or you could save the 4th slot for coverage moves like Grass if you fear the foe will switch in a Rhydon and be a total counter for Jolteon later on (after its first Baton Pass).

Keep in mind, Gen 2 maxes out all EVs, including Attack, so Jolteon's attack after the boost is 456, with max HP, Defense, and Special Defense allowing it to survive better than it would in Gen 3 onwards.

Now, obviously, Confusion in Gen 2 means it has a 50% chance to be pulled off, but when it works, it helps you pass to an immediate threat to your opponent's team all on the first turn, something like Aerodactyl.

Please consider this as a moveset that can give Jolteon a new niche, and help it serve as an anti-lead.

The Thunderbolt, Substitute, and Hidden Power Grass are after Berserk Gene is used, and you want to use Jolteon for later in the match...

This pairs nicely with:

Aerodactyl @ Miracle Berry
Ability: Rock Head
IVs: 22 HP / 26 Atk / 24 Def
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge / Aerial Ace
- Fire Blast

Miracle Berry cures all status, namely the Confusion it switches into, but I chose this over Bitter Berry (which only cures Confusion) in case Jolteon isn;t able to pass, and Aerodactly gets afflicted with another status condition, allowing Miracle Berry to always be useful to Aerodactyl.

Overall, with great Quake/Slide (equivalent) coverage, and Fire Blast for Forretress, Scizor, and Double-Edge for neutral coverage (or Aerial Ace), Aerodactyl outspeeds and hits opponents pretty hard, and as quickly as Turn 2.

This niche item set for Aerodactyl can definitely work as a core lead combo, as these 2 Pokemon are tied with 130 Base Speed tier, and are outsped only by Electrode, so there is not even a need to pass Agility.
 
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Jorgen

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Thx for the tip, but whats your angle? Are you arguing for Jolt to be higher on the basis of a strat thats even more off-beat than agi/growth pass? Or you just being a friendly factoid purveyor?
 
Thx for the tip, but whats your angle? Are you arguing for Jolt to be higher on the basis of a strat thats even more off-beat than agi/growth pass? Or you just being a friendly factoid purveyor?
Well first, I'm reminding people that the item exists, if you want a more durable (won't hurt itself in confusion too much) then Umbreon and Vaporeon are better, but if you want a turn 1 Swords Dance + Baton Pass equivalent, then why not? Keep in mind Jolteon is the fastest Baton Passed, and as a lead, they may not be able to KO it even if it hits itself in confusion, say they lead with a Forretress to set up Spikes, what will Forretress do? Set up Spikes, and then next turn switch out...

Just because Jolteon may hit itself in confusion doesn't mean it will be KOed by the foe immediately. i don't have the damage calculator on all of the standard Pokémon a foe will use on a team, but if someone can select the top 3-4 Pokémon hat Aerodactly can KO with +2, then perhaps that will be all the proof necessary.

For example, I faced a Steelix, and Aerodactyl's EQ did 71%.

***Also, based on the rank descriptions, if a niche exists then it allows even bad Pokémon to make it to D or C- rank alone, so if a new niche comes up, why wouldn't it add at least a small boost so Jolteon could make it from B- to B or B+, if you don't feel like a B is justified by just 1 Pokemon's placement- as everything is B- or B+ ? Riskier things have been used (Belly Drum anyone?) but that doesn't mean it can't pay off when it works.

Also, Jolteon is a strong matchup against many S and A Rank Pokémon, Zapdos, Raikou, Vaporeon, Suicuns, Skarmary, etc.

They fear Paralysis or a Stab Thunderbolt, which encourages they to switch out, which makes it easier to Baton pass to Aerodactyl and start sweeping on turn 2.

Lol, actually Belly Drum is riskier because it guarantees you are at half HP or less, Confusion doesn't hit Jolteon that hard, and you have a 50% to just Baton Pass in turn 1 and take 0 % damage.

Also, confusion wears off, so you have less than a 50% chance to hurt yourself after turn 1 has passed.

I would understand the risk if used mid-late game when your foe knows to switch in a Jolteon counter, but on turn 1 when they see Jolteon confuse itself, and they scratch their heads, they won't expect a baton Pass to an aerodactyl... I can tell you that.
If you want to use it late game as a cleaner that can work too, but Aerodactyl is typically going to weaken the foe's team and then you can finish it off after they are badly hurt.
 
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Jorgen

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in-cart confusion from berserk gene specifically does not wear off (well okay it wears off after 255 turns lol).

not sure if PS! does stadium 2 mechanics for this or not - judging from bd glitch, it should be cart, so confusion actually shouldn't be wearing off (at least not without a berry) if it does.

also on turn 1 bgene jolt: its not that befuddling, passing out to a physical attacker is #1 on the things to expect. not sure what your fixation is on drum either; both are risky, but with drum you get a lot more control over when & how to take that risk. You get to choose when it goes off, use it multiple times a match (unless youre charizard or something, but even then maybe), and are guaranteed to be able to attack after setting it up without needing a whole other pokemon slot (holding a non-lefties item to boot).

I know you're excited; bgene is a cool item. But its not the undiscovered game changer you think it is - its a gimmick that isn't even guaranteed to work & even if it does work it leaves you at a clear disadvantage once skarm tanks your fb & phazes out Aero or w/e. Its mostly useful for BP teams that want to bypass Roar Raikou by being able to pass a boost immediately after Jolt switches in. That and using funny shit like dry-bg Tauros and Aero that aren't really good but can net kills if you need to rely on the stars to align to beat someone.
 
in-cart confusion from berserk gene specifically does not wear off (well okay it wears off after 255 turns lol).

not sure if PS! does stadium 2 mechanics for this or not - judging from bd glitch, it should be cart, so confusion actually shouldn't be wearing off (at least not without a berry) if it does.

also on turn 1 bgene jolt: its not that befuddling, passing out to a physical attacker is #1 on the things to expect. not sure what your fixation is on drum either; both are risky, but with drum you get a lot more control over when & how to take that risk. You get to choose when it goes off, use it multiple times a match (unless youre charizard or something, but even then maybe), and are guaranteed to be able to attack after setting it up without needing a whole other pokemon slot (holding a non-lefties item to boot).

I know you're excited; bgene is a cool item. But its not the undiscovered game changer you think it is - its a gimmick that isn't even guaranteed to work & even if it does work it leaves you at a clear disadvantage once skarm tanks your fb & phazes out Aero or w/e. Its mostly useful for BP teams that want to bypass Roar Raikou by being able to pass a boost immediately after Jolt switches in. That and using funny shit like dry-bg Tauros and Aero that aren't really good but can net kills if you need to rely on the stars to align to beat someone.
Jolteon discourages Skarm, and if you think the fact it is a lead means you should worry about Skarmary since Skarmary can just come in on Aero, then go ahead and save Jolteon + Aero for later and have a Zapdos/Raikou on your team to KO Skarmary.

Point is, you pass to Aero and outspeed near everything. Depending on when you send Jolteon in, you also get to choose when Berserk Gene goes off... well, Belly Drum is also situational, you have to assume you can survive hits the turn you use it, and if you are slower, the following turn. Skarmary also resists Snorlax's Return and is immune to Earthquake, and even after a Belly Drum, it can still Whirlwind out Snorlax. Charizard has to resort to Earthquake and Hidden Power Flying for good coverage, both of which are resisted by Zapdos, and let's Zapdos 1HKO with Thunderbolt after Belly Drum.

Anyways, Bellg Drum requires the user to know it, Beserk Gene only requires Baton Pass, which is much more common, and doesn't mean the user has to worry about whether it has a high Attack stat, as it can pass it to something else that does.

At the very least, Jolteon saves a turn, and poses a threat to counters of Aero.
 
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Nidoqueen for D, possibly C-.

Nidoqueen has the second best HP/Defense combination of any Charm user, it's faster than Umbreon (beating Cloyster, Smeargle, Skarmory and Umbreon itself), has a different typing, and it has a decent movepool with Thief, BoltBeam, Fire Blast and Lovely Kiss. I'm not arguing it isn't plagued by some noticeable disadvantages, but these things must give it a some sort of niche. On par with Entei/Sandslash/Venusaur/Alakazam is not a massive pedastal anyway.
 
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Jorgen

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In practice D rank is “stuff that stinks but which we’re obliged to address anyway”. Nidoqueen is really shitty Nidoking replacement even though it looks very similar at first glance; it just fails to do enough damage to be nearly as threatening though; it almost never 3hkos zapdos with ib or 4hkos lax with eq after spikes, for instance. So for that reason alone I think Nidoqueen could go in D, just to address that even though it seems like nidoking-lite, it really just doesn’t work as such.

Now if this charm niche is actually important it could even vault to C- but I don’t see that. Nidoqueen’s higher speed than umb means little when the likes of lax & steelix are the main charm targets, and its typing is a huge downgrade due to the eq weakness. Plus, unlike umb, it can’t have moonlight & charm on the same set. It’s different from umb, sure, but most of those differences are for the worse. The only thing it really offers as a charm user is handling machamp a lot better, which doesn’t seem like enough.
 
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