Lower Tiers GSC Ubers Discussion

[Earthworm]

GSC Ubers

GSC Ubers is the least played and also the least explored Ubers metagame. There are numerous reasons for this, such as GSC's reputation for being more difficult to become proficient at and its reputation for having a slower pace than many modern (impatient?) players like. However, GSC Ubers is quite unique in that none of the Ubers are totally overwhelming or too far from the power levels of the top OU Pokemon.

This month, GSC Ubers is on one of the RoA Spotlight Ladders, and I am also hosting a GSC Ubers Tournament over in the Tournaments subforum.

For those unfamiliar with the metagame, I've briefly gone into most of the common Pokemon below.

Mew is arguably the best Pokemon thanks to its amazing bulk, amazing coverage, and access to Swords Dance, Explosion, and Softboiled. Almost nothing can 2HKO it unboosted, its coverage can be unpredictable, and even most Explosions fail to take it out from full health.

Mew sample sets

"Recovering sweeper"
Mew @ Leftovers
- Swords Dance
- Submission
- Shadow Ball
- Soft-Boiled

"Wallbreaker (coverage for Psychics/Normals/Darks)"
Mew @ Leftovers
- Swords Dance
- Submission
- Shadow Ball
- Explosion

"Wallbreaker 2 (coverage for Zapdos/Lugia/Ho-Oh)"
Mew @ Leftovers
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Explosion

"Para Spreader"
Mew @ Leftovers
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Thunder Wave

"Mixed Sweeper"
Mew @ Leftovers
- Swords Dance
- Submission
- Rock Slide
- Fire Blast

"Growth receiver"
Mew @ Leftovers
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Explosion

Mew's coverage can pretty much be customised to your liking and it is likely to be useful with any set by virtue of Explosion. There are no hard stops to Mew and its coverage options certainly cause team building headaches, but it is not an unstoppable sweeping machine by any means.

Something Mew (and all other Ubers) is lacking is a Sleep-inducing move. The typical choice for a Sleeper in the Ubers metagame is none other than Snorlax. Snorlax in GSC Ubers is very often mono-lax and is typically a Lovely Kiss variant, however Earthquake or Firelax are not completely gone from the meta. Lovely Kiss is bad news for all of Lugia / Skarmory / Steelix hoping to check Snorlax and SD Mew, meaning some more defensive teams will be obligated to run multiple of these (or other similar checks). Other teams will compensate with more Explosion.

Snorlax sample sets

"Standard LK Curselax"
Snorlax @ Leftovers
- Lovely Kiss
- Curse
- Double-Edge
- Rest

"Exploding LK Curselax"
Snorlax @ Leftovers
- Lovely Kiss
- Curse
- Double-Edge
- Self-Destruct

"LK Drumlax"
Snorlax @ Leftovers
- Lovely Kiss
- Belly Drum
- Body Slam
- Rest

All of these sets assume your opponent won't bring Gengar or Misdreavus. While they aren't nearly as good in Ubers as they are in OU, it may be unwise to discount them completely.

Mewtwo is far from the metagame-defining threat it was in RBY Ubers. Post-Amnesia nerf, it has no way of boosting its (incredibly high) Special Attack on its own, meaning it struggles to get past Pokemon like Mew, Snorlax, and opposing Recover Mewtwo without getting status inflictions or critical hits. Despite this, it is one of the top threats in the metagame thanks to the instant threat of Self-Destruct, its fantastic defenses alongside Recover, and its powerful coverage options such as Fire Blast, Thunder, Ice Beam, Psychic, and Submission.

Mewtwo sample sets

"Wallbreaker"
Mewtwo @ Leftovers
- Thunder
- Fire Blast
- Ice Beam
- Self-Destruct

"Paraspreader"
Mewtwo @ Leftovers
- Thunder Wave
- Psychic
- Thunder
- Self-Destruct

"Mixed attacker"
Mewtwo @ Leftovers
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Submission
- Recover

"Toxic stall"
Mewtwo @ Leftovers
- Toxic
- Flamethrower
- Recover
- Self-Destruct

This is a very limited look at what Mewtwo is capable of. It's great at using Counter, it can run physical sets with Curse and Shadow Ball and/or Submission, and just about any combination of coverage can be used. One of the most common outcomes is for Mewtwo to trade for the enemy Mewtwo with Self-Destruct due to its threat level. It is also a fantastic Growthpass recipient.

Next is Lugia. Lugia does not have the crazy levels of variety that Mew, Mewtwo, and Snorlax have, but it poses a unique threat to teams that mandates consideration when building a GSC Ubers team. It is also one of the most difficult Pokemon to KO in the game with its titanic defenses and 32 PP Recover. It is nigh impossible to KO without either a boosted Explosion or status of some sort.

Lugia sample set

"Curse Phazer"
Lugia @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Aeroblast
- Whirlwind
- Recover

Aeroblast is a very threatening attack with its 25% crit rate and high base power, however Lugia needs to be careful with its PP. Steelix underspeeds Lugia even after a Curse, so it is a hard counter barring Spikes phazing or a very slow Lugia. Lugia does have other options like Earthquake, Thunder, and Shadow Ball, but cannot typically afford the move slot.

Steelix is a very key Pokemon in the metagame, providing a counter to Lugia and Monolax as well as a Toxic immunity, a pivot for Electrics, a threatening Explosion, and even a chance at sweeping unprepared teams. It can run its usual OU Curse Phazer set but will often choose Iron Tail over or alongside Earthquake in an attempt to take advantage of a lack of Water-types and Pokemon that can deal with its unique typing.

Zapdos is another major, important presence in the GSC Ubers metagame. It can perform its familiar Sleep Talker role effectively but is also capable of spreading Paralysis, setting up screens, and phazing. Not being weak to Mew's SBall/Submission coverage is very helpful in this regard. HP Water is a lot more common of a choice than it is in OU due to the abundance of Steelix and lack of Exeggutor. Having a Zapdos is a near surefire way to handle Lugia, and it can also fight non-Rock Slide Mew effectively and has a decent matchup against Ice Beamless Mewtwo sets.

Cloyster and Forretress don't have the almost-mandatory status that they have in OU, but Spikes can still be of critical importance, particularly if you are playing for long term scenarios. Forretress typically has a much easier time of coming in to set up Spikes, but as usual must be wary of surprise Fire attacks. It can be very annoying to deal with for Monolax and Submission Mew thanks to Toxic and Explosion. Cloyster provides a solid answer to Steelix and Marowak and is more likely to be able to pull off Explosion offensively as opposed to reactively, making it the Spiker of choice on certain teams. Both of these also provide decently powerful Explosions to deal with difficult threats like Mew and Drumlax.

Ho-Oh can be very annoying to offensive teams with its burn threat, but faces serious hurdles in terms of exerting offensive presence against other teams as well as most teams with Zapdos, which can wall it thanks to RestTalk allowing it to shrug off status and a lack of weaknesses to Ho-Oh's attacks. It is a great check to SD Shadow Ball Mew, but obviously gets demolished by Rock Slide variants.

Celebi is a very passive cleric which can be taken advantage of by common sweepers, especially if they have Heal Bell support of their own. Due to its passivity outside of Toxic, it can be a risk to use it on more offensive teams. However, with ample defensive support, it can perform well in the role of ensuring that you can outlast your opponent in the long run through PP stalling threats with its seemingly infinite Recover PP.

Skarmory is a very reliable answer to Snorlax and Mew if they don't have Fire Blast. It is an excellent choice for a more defensive team. Its Normal resistance and lack of Rock or Ghost weakness set it apart from Lugia, although it is much less likely to sweep and is passive so requires ample defensive support.

Growth Jolteon is a lot more of a threat in Ubers than it is in OU due to there being virtually no Exeggutor, fewer Raikou, having a fantastic BP recipient option in Mewtwo, and generally having better opportunities to set up. It can also contribute to overwhelming a Steelix for Monolax.

Raikou makes a decent option in the Ubers metagame with its ability to threaten paralysis and heavy damage with Thunder and its niche as a phazer not weak to Electric + Ice/Water coverage. It's a fairly reliable option for defensive teams, especially against opposing Zapdos.

Tyranitar has great coverage and typing for the Ubers metagame, hitting all the Ubers for fairly significant damage with its STAB options while maintaining coverage for Steel and/or Rock types with Fire Blast or Surf. Tyranitar definitely enjoys the lack of Water-types in the tier very much. Four attacks works pretty well, as does Curse or a phazer set. However, it must beware of Submission from Mew and Mewtwo.

Golem and Rhydon are decently effective, with Golem having an Explosion and Rapid Spin while Rhydon has the ability to pull off a sweep with its Curse-boosted Rock Slides and Earthquakes given paralysis support. They can replace Steelix as solid Normal-resists, but their typing and stats aren't quite as ideal as Steelix's.

If you want to play a very passive game, these Pokemon all have unique typings and/or qualities that can give you an unexpected edge in the GSC Ubers metagame.

With how common Explosion and Monolax are in the Ubers metagame, it makes sense that Ghost-types have some kind of a niche, even though they struggle against Mewtwo, Mew, and Steelix. They definitely have nowhere near the presence they have in OU though.

These are decent options to surprise your opponent and each have some relevant niche in the metagame, but they are all flawed in some way as well.

Have you played on the RoA Spotlight ladder this month, or do you have any comment on anything I've said above? Anyone is more than welcome to post their thoughts on the metagame in this thread. At the end of the tournament / when the stats come out from this month's ladder, I also plan to post them and give some thoughts. Should there be enough interest, we will perhaps also attempt a VR update.

 

[Eeveeto]

Don,t have time to post more, but will share a cool Mew set:

(Mew)
Ability: Synchronize
- Thunder Wave
- Thief
- Soft-Boiled
- Transform

Steals Items, steals (well, shares) boosts, and paralyzes everything !

This Meta is funnier than most people think, I suggest everyone to try it.

Btw, Earthworm what is the use for Shuckle in this Tier? Sandstorm? Wrap? Curse + Rollout?

 

[Deleted User 108547]

I've played a couple of games (~10-20 games perhaps?) but as Eeveeto says is a really enjoyable meta to get involved with.

I'm not able to start a deep discuss about this meta yet, the only point I would like to expose is about Espeon as a growthpasser. Is slower than Jolteon, which is the fastest mon in the tier alongside Mewtwo, but I feel it's potential as a sweeper and typing is better. Do you feel like should be mentioned Earthworm?

 

[Earthworm]

Don,t have time to post more, but will share a cool Mew set:

(Mew)
Ability: Synchronize
- Thunder Wave
- Thief
- Soft-Boiled
- Transform

Steals Items, steals (well, shares) boosts, and paralyzes everything !

This Meta is funnier than most people think, I suggest everyone to try it.

Btw, Earthworm what is the use for Shuckle in this Tier? Sandstorm? Wrap? Curse + Rollout?

That is an interesting Mew set, I will have to try it out. Although I'm not sure what the best transform targets would be?

Shuckle is pretty much just there to PP stall and catch Explosion while spreading Toxic. It can work on a team with something like Drumlax, Rapid Spinner, and four extremely defensive Pokemon which try to set up drumlax and counter as many threats as possible.

I've played a couple of games (~10-20 games perhaps?) but as Eeveeto says is a really enjoyable meta to get involved with.

I'm not able to start a deep discuss about this meta yet, the only point I would like to expose is about Espeon as a growthpasser. Is slower than Jolteon, which is the fastest mon in the tier alongside Mewtwo, but I feel it's potential as a sweeper and typing is better. Do you feel like should be mentioned Earthworm?

I forgot about Espeon. I'm not sure about its typing being better than Jolteon's but I can see it working in a similar vein. What set do you use on it?

 

[Ortheore]

Yoooo GSC Ubers is sick and should be the default format... or at least played more lol. That said, I generally haven't played much lately, so I'm not terribly current on these things but I want to share my thoughts anyway.

M2 is obviously the third banana in this tier and I don't think it's close to being on par with Lax/Mew. The biggest failing as I see it is that most of its sets are hard countered by Mew... which is a problem because imo one of the biggest things keeping Mew in check is that it doesn't otherwise have many matchups which are obvious openings for it. Everything else is either threatening enough to make setting up unpalatable, or runs stuff like phazing moves or status to limit Mew's ability to set up, but M2 can't really hurt it too much with its regular attacks- Shadow Ball works, but otherwise it's what, boom or status?

Celebi I think is a huge deal for the tier. I don't at all agree that it's easy to take advantage of based purely on the fact that Leech Seed goes a long way in preventing opponents from ever gaining momentum. Also with the game's heavyweights mostly depending on Recover, status becomes a huge deal and Celebi basically negates this. It is generally free Spikes though, so there is that. Also Spikes are still really really good imo, they're still so good as to approach being mandatory.

Ho-oh to me feels like a pokemon that is usable, but also irrelevant. The main reason is that Lugia exists and does basically everything better than Ho. I also don't think Ho's strengths really make a difference- Attack is irrelevant due to inferior STAB, while SFire is incredibly easy to deal with imo- it's unreliable, has extremely limited PP, is easily sponged by neutral walls with Rest and semi-decent bulk and Heal Bell exists to clear burns as well.

Idk how much this has been explored in the time since I was last active, but I'm still getting the vibe that people are still experimenting, so I'd be really interested to see what kinds of standards emerge

 

[zf]

Here's some standard teams

boom offense

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Double-Edge
- Lovely Kiss
- Curse
- Rest

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: none
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk / 26 Def
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: none
IVs: 6 HP / 28 Atk / 24 Def
- Explosion
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Explosion
- Swords Dance

Mewtwo @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Submission
- Self-Destruct

Golem @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Explosion
- Roar

4 booms + standard zap + kiss curselax. if you ever get ahead, a lot of times you can just boom through the opposing team and win the game. lax can be boomcurse or restcurse. golem can be steelix but i prefer golem's extra speed and higher damage output. sucks he dies to zap and jolt hp water though.

stall

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Body Slam
- Lovely Kiss
- Belly Drum
- Rest

Mewtwo @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Flamethrower
- Toxic
- Self-Destruct
- Recover

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Pursuit
- Charm
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: none
IVs: 6 HP / 28 Atk / 24 Def
- Explosion
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Aeroblast
- Curse
- Whirlwind
- Recover

Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Thunder
- Reflect
- Roar
- Rest

umbreon kicks ass in gsc ubers. it walls non-submission mew, non-drum lax, forces mewtwo to boom, and is more unbreakable than in OU because fighting types blow in ubers. having a sleep absorber that comes into lax is also pretty nice. drumlax to break, mewtwo as an all-encompassing safety net and general nuisance, forre for spikes, lugia as another catch-all, and reflectkou for mew and jolteon shenanigans.

growthpass

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Double-Edge
- Lovely Kiss
- Curse
- Self-Destruct

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Explosion
- Swords Dance

Jolteon @ Leftovers
Ability: none
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk / 26 Def
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Growth
- Baton Pass

Mewtwo @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast
- Self-Destruct

Cloyster @ Leftovers
Ability: none
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Surf
- Icy Wind
- Explosion
- Spikes

Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Crunch
- Fire Blast
- Ice Beam
- Roar

boom + kiss lax to utterly shred phazers. mewtwo and ttar as recipients, jolt is a fine endgame cleaner as well. icy wind cloy can catch things on the switch for extra spikes and more precise booms. sd 3 atks mew is just another great breaker that can clean as well.

lax is still the best mon, even with no holds barred.

mewtwo has so much it can do on top of the sets listed in the op. i think reflect and counter are pretty dope options.

mew should almost always be sd, but i think there's some merit to reflect + roar sets on the right teams. thief boom 2 atks also seems neat.

celebi is mediocre at best. the best set is hp fire / leech / bell / recover because it's not dead to forre and can hit steelix and skarm for big damage.

ho-oh just straight up sucks. resttalk and curse can't really do damage. no pressure means sub sets (the adv ubers staple) are bad. no screens hurts its support options. if you've got an itch to use it, i reckon its best set is sacred fire / physical move (return, eq, or shadow ball) / nightmare / recover. its sturdiest checks are all pokemon that use rest to shrug off status like zap and lax - nightmare with spikes down can punish them pretty hard and force in other mons to potentially burn with sacred fire. pp issues are probably real however.

 

[Eeveeto]

That is an interesting Mew set, I will have to try it out. Although I'm not sure what the best transform targets would be?

Ironically Mew itself ( SD one) is the best Transform target, as long as its paralyzed. However, the best use for the move is to scout sets. Does that Lugia has EQ or Hydropump to surprise my Steelix/Rhydon/Raikou? Does Mewtwo have Fire Blast or can I switch my Forretress to put Spikes/Spin? Is that Curselax, Drumlax or BoomLax? Also, Transform means Mew isn,t wasting his own PPs, which is useful in long battles.

Some more tech:


Zapdosorio (Zapdos) @ Leftovers
IVs: 6 HP / 28 Atk / 24 Def
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Not only I consider Zapdos to be the 4th best Mon in this Tier ( behind Mew, Lax and Mewtwo, not necesarily in that order) but I think HP Fire is best one for him. It allows Zapdos to hit Steelix and Celebi at the same time. Normally Zapdos isn,t beating Celebi one on one.... but paralisis exists. And Steelix needs to be hit by Zapdos, as its much more common in Ubers than in OU. Not hitting Marowak and Rhydon sucks, but they are not as common as in OU and other checks exist for both of them.

Palmero (Exeggutor) (M) @ Leftovers
IVs: 6 HP / 28 Atk / 24 Def
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Explosion
- Sleep Powder


OU Mon, but it still has a lot of uses over Celebi. Sleep is as good as always, and Zapdos is not a reliable absorber. Forr gets demolished by HP Fire and Boom is another good move.


Mewsias (Mew)
- Thunder Wave
- Roar
- Thief
- Soft-Boiled

Same set that above, but now it has Roar over Transform. With Spikes support, Mew can be very annoying.


Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
- Swords Dance
- Submission
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball

Forretress often comes into Mew to force it out with Toxic or explode on him. Well, not anymore. This doesn,t have Recover, so it should be used carefully.



Un-Uber (Ho-Oh) @ Charcoal
- Sacred Fire
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Sunny Day

A weaker (but much bulkier) Moltres, but hey, it burns!

Sidagle (Smeargle) (M) @ Miracle Berry
Ability: Own Tempo
- Spore
- Mirror Coat
- Spikes
- Counter / Destiny Bond / Thunder Wave

Mewtwo Psychic vs. Smeargle: 209-246 (66.7 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery < Mewtwo has 415 HP, so it always dies if uses Psychic. EVs can be lowered for Mewtwos that scout with Fire Blast or Thunder.

Anticristo (Mewtwo) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
- Psychic
- Fire Blast
- Self-Destruct
- Thunder Wave

Mewsias (Mew) @ Leftovers
- Swords Dance
- Thunder Wave
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide


Yellow Magic.



Fat (Snorlax) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Immunity
- Belly Drum
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake / Fire Blast
- Rest

And this is the goal of Yellow Magic. Very risky set to use otherwise, but Lugia is not safe switch-in anymore.


Heracross @ Leftovers
Ability: Swarm
- Megahorn
- Seismic Toss / Curse / Earthquake
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

Ironically, this is a Mew check, as it never uses Psychic.



Anticristo (Mewtwo) @ Leftovers
- Psychic
- Thunder / Fire Blast
- Counter
- Self-Destruct

+6 Snorlax Body Slam vs. Mewtwo: 330-388 (79.5 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 Mew Shadow Ball vs. Mewtwo: 372-438 (89.6 - 105.5%) -- 35.9% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Enigami]

Played this more than I played GSC OU, it was a few years ago though and I was probably garbage back then. I remember having a lot of fun playing around with Thief + Transform Mew.

Don't forget that you can drop EVs/DVs on Tyranitar and Skarmory to underspeed Lugia! They can afford to drop a LOT of speed with all most viable Pokemon of the tier being either very slow or very fast, so you can run Roar/Whirlwind on them while ensuring -1 Lugia can't just phaze them away to make them more reliable answers. 0 EV / 1 DV Speed Skarmory is 147 speed, while 0 EV / 0 DV -1 Speed Lugia is 148, so you can drop them to the point it's impossible for Lugia to counter with lowering its own Speed. Lugia's extremely unlikely to drop Speed though as it would let Mew and Zapdos (and Gengar) outspeed at +0. Also if you want to be cheeky, you could always run 128 Speed Roar Growth Pass Jolteon to counter Raikou phazing.

Here's a little cheat sheet for underbidding Lugia's most notable options for reducing speed:
318 - 252 / 15 Lugia | Gengar
299 - 176 / 15 Lugia
298 - Mew | Zapdos
212 - -1 252 / 15 Lugia
211 - 144 / 15 Skarmory | 216 / 15 Tyranitar
208 - Blissey
197 - -1 176 / 15 Lugia
196 - 84 / 15 Skarmory | 156 / 15 Tyranitar
188 - Golem
178 - Rhydon
158 - Steelix
148 - -1 0 / 0 Lugia
147 - 0 / 1 Skarmory | 72 / 1 Tyranitar

Funny thing with Blissey (and other Normals) if you don't want her to be too passive:
Blissey / Miltank / Smeargle Present (120 BP) vs. Mewtwo: 339-399 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- 59% chance to OHKO after Spikes
Blissey / Miltank / Smeargle Present (120 BP) vs. Mew: 339-399 (84.1 - 99%) -- 76.9% chance to OHKO after Spikes
Blissey / Miltank / Smeargle Present (120 BP) vs. Celebi: 308-363 (76.4 - 90%) -- 20.5% chance to OHKO after Spikes
Blissey / Miltank / Smeargle Present (120 BP) vs. Tyranitar: 184-217 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 95.5% chance to 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Blissey / Miltank / Smeargle Present (120 BP) vs. Jolteon: 339-399 (101.8 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Blissey / Miltank / Smeargle Present (120 BP) vs. Raikou: 339-399 (88.5 - 104.1%) -- 28.2% chance to OHKO
Blissey / Miltank / Smeargle Present (120 BP) vs. Umbreon: 370-435 (94.1 - 110.6%) -- 64.1% chance to OHKO
Blissey / Miltank / Smeargle Present (120 BP) vs. Vaporeon: 308-363 (66.5 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

These are all the Pokemon listed in the OP vulnerable to Present. That's quite a number of major players that could see themselves deleted in one shot by Present (or 2 in Tyranitar's case). Granted, that's a 1/10 chance for the 120 BP kill shot, and even 80 BP Presents aren't reliable, but having even Smeargle be capable of dunking Mew & Mewtwo isn't something to be overlooked. Even Chansey could have some teeth if you REALLY REALLY wanted a secondary Special wall. Present / Counter / Softboiled Chansey is not fun at all for Mewtwo (or any other mono-special type, or Celebi). Submission Mewtwo can get around Chansey if it is able to predict right, but even then if it Submissions into Counter, Mewtwo's dead. (edit: whoops, Present + Counter isn't compatible... Submission-less Mewtwo is still in for a massive headache though) Having Blissey in the back also means any Special attacker waiting in the back is going to be very frustrated that Mewtwo can't blow holes open to make a sweep happen. Slap Thunder Wave on and Chansey can even 1v1 Mew with the right RNG. Super niche (if that), but it's funny to think of the sort of scenarios Present could create. I think I've got a build in mind that just might actually work with double pink blobs though...

 

[Deleted User 108547]

That is an interesting Mew set, I will have to try it out. Although I'm not sure what the best transform targets would be?

Shuckle is pretty much just there to PP stall and catch Explosion while spreading Toxic. It can work on a team with something like Drumlax, Rapid Spinner, and four extremely defensive Pokemon which try to set up drumlax and counter as many threats as possible.


I forgot about Espeon. I'm not sure about its typing being better than Jolteon's but I can see it working in a similar vein. What set do you use on it?

I've only used a classic version of EspyJump but with HP water instead of substitute for TTar and Steelix.

Espeon @ Leftovers
- Psychic
- Growth
- Baton Pass
- Hidden Power [Water]

However, Espeon can be a sweeper itself with proper support. For example the tier is plenty of psychic pokemon (Mew/two, Lugia, Celebi as top threats) and has access to bite which deals >40% on Mew/two and Celebi after +1 while still manages to keep a HP of your choice. I haven't tested yet, but could be a an option. Oh, and don't forget 30% chance to flinch which is great on such a fast pokemon.

 

[Isa]

I dont know if zap desperately needs stalk in this tier. You wall things through typing moreso than stats here and it frees up a slot for smth like ww or a screen. It helps to have very sturdy mew defenses on the side though.

 

[itsbme]

Just came here to post a Mew set. tghost inspired me to use this back in ‘01.

@ Leftovers
~Transform
~Whirlwind
~Metronome
~Softboiled

 

[Jame$ G]

Very nice write up, nothing really to add to that.

Mew > Mewtwo > Zapdos > Lugia > Mew is probably the most notable circle of match up advantages.

Swords dance Mew is great for setup but isn't that easy to bring into play, especially as taking a status can kinda ruin it. Curse phaze Lugia was almost always a standard for this exact check; if it's a pure physical Mew sure, Skarm & Steelix can deal with it but it can pack hard hitting fire moves and thus Lugia is the only safe check for it. I was quite surprised I didn't come across many players using curse phaze Lugia on Spotlight this time considering how commonplace it has always traditionally been. Normally the Swords Dance sweep strategy requires a bit of setup work and really Lugia needs to be cleared from the field first. Snorlax is probably more deadly in ubers than ou; less skarms, machamps, ghosts & explosions around to stop his music.

Ho-Oh has problems; for one its slower than Zapdos & Mew and that's quite a big problem for this guy. Secondly it lacks the offensive numbers or ability to boost its offensive numbers to the level it can do anything influencial with 8pp. Burns are great in a meta where physical boostage is so central but inflicting a burn average 4 times in a game probably isn't going to be a make or break tactic. However the Sacred fire, ancient power, rest, sleep talk set does make Ho-Oh into a potential threat, it reduces the opponents fallout to just pp stall you as taking the back seat gives you breathing space to fish for that A. P. boost. When boosted Sacred Fire is doing decent damage, you get the speed jump which can mean a double attack play and it generally becomes bad news all round. Not to mention all the extra Sacred Fires you get from sleep talk. This is the only set I've ever got Ho-Oh to work well for me with.

Tyranitar needs curse; it makes the difference between submission being a guaranteed 2hko or a 3/4 with only 1 curse.

Finishing notes: The golden metric for offense in gen 2 is being able to 3 shot Snorlax and ubers is certainly no exception. If you don't have any strategy to be able to kill Snorlax in 3 hits or less where are you going with your game? It can just switch in on you on any Pokemon on any turn, take the damage, then rest loop you out of pp and fishing crits or pp stalling back is probably your only chance. If your not packing explosions or machamp you need something with a boost plus attack move at bare minimum to prevent lax blindly & safely out stalling you. I saw too many teams that neglect this one golden rule you have to adhere to in GSC.

 

[morty123]

Ttar sounds good on paper but few things run psychic in ubers, and it doesnt even deal enough damage to really threaten the psychics with pursuit/crunch.
Things are just too bulky, from the calculations i've seen.

Also, the one thing it really counters well is Ho-Oh, and you really dont want to switch into sacred fire.

Maybe im a bit too negative.

 

[Jame$ G]

Yeah I'd say that's a fairly accurate assessment. Tyranitar switches into curse phaze Lugia fairly safely and crunch isn't nice when it starts dropping special defense. It can be hard to then bring a check in for t.tar repeatedly when it gets a free switch into Lugia all game. It can be good for dealing with a last poke lax you can't phaze out or kill after a few curses; just curse up and try to run his Sp. defense low. Personally I like Steelix a lot more in Ubers, that electric immunity can create some low damage double switch plays and its a really nice typing to compliment Lugia.

Yes a lot of people don't run psychic on Mewtwo, I personally do. Without it you're pretty much leaning on Snorlax to deal with your opponents electric type or having to self-destruct something. I suppose an e.q. / rock slide Mew could but it carries risk of a bad exchange with paralysis.

And yes you're right everything is very bulky in ubers, there's a lot of straight attack exchanges that are just unable to get the job done in 3 hits against many pokes which means a game you can recover quicker than the damage is dealt, not good. That's why boosting is so focal in ubers, it's necessary to get the job done.

 

[Conflict]

Aight just gonna post a couple sets that i think are decent:

Rhydon @ Leftovers
Ability: none
IVs: 26 Atk / 26 Def
- Curse
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Bug]

Cute rhydon-set that can really put the hurt into Celebi (+1 Rhydon Hidden Power Bug vs. Celebi: 367-432 (91 - 107.1%) -- 46.2% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery). This shits really cool as a late game sweeper due to a lot of Celes running no Grass-move and works really well on a paraspam team. Cele is very likely to come into Rhydon to Heal Bell vs such a team and with this you can just lure Cele out and kill it. With Cele gone a lot of other mons become really scary.


Mewtwo @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Psychic
- Fire Blast
- Blizzard
- Shadow Ball / Submission / Selfdestruct

All-out attacking Mewtwo. Psychic or Submission for a decent move to spam, both are honestly fine. Fire Blast to fry all steels, Blizzard for the 3hko on Lugia and a high shot at killing Zapdos after a Psychic (Psychic already 3hkoes, which Ice Beam doesnt so Blizz seems superior).
Last move is down to preference. Sball for 1v1ing other Mewtwos easier, Submission for Ttar/Lax and Boom cuz its fkin Boom.


Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Thunder Wave
- Transform
- Fire Blast
- Soft-Boiled
twave - transform mew. Lets you twave shit and later steal the boosts of something. FireBlast cuz fuck Forry but Sball could work too. Soft cuz u wanna stay around.


Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Lovely Kiss
- Curse
- Earthquake
- Self-Destruct
Sleep+Lure-Lax. Just sleep after u get in for free on a double or something and then start boosting. Pretty good odds to sleep 1 mon and kill another. No1 expects boom after you reveal the EQ. Really only fits on offensive teams that need certain walls chipped/boomed on.

Thats it for now but theres probably more to come in the future.

 

[Earthworm]

Thanks for all your great input everyone, was very interesting to read all the different perspectives on the tier. I'll definitely be looking to try out some of the sets and teams posted by Conflict, Eeveeto, and zf when I can.

So, the GSC Ubers tournament concluded (with me winning!). Here are the stats from the tournament:

2019 GSC Ubers Tournament (16-man)

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Snorlax            |   65 |  98.48% |  49.23% |
| 2    | Mewtwo             |   52 |  78.79% |  42.31% |
| 3    | Mew                |   47 |  71.21% |  46.81% |
| 4    | Zapdos             |   39 |  59.09% |  48.72% |
| 5    | Forretress         |   26 |  39.39% |  57.69% |
| 6    | Lugia              |   25 |  37.88% |  56.00% |
| 7    | Steelix            |   23 |  34.85% |  65.22% |
| 8    | Cloyster           |   16 |  24.24% |  31.25% |
| 9    | Celebi             |   15 |  22.73% |  60.00% |
| 10   | Ho-Oh              |   12 |  18.18% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Tyranitar          |   12 |  18.18% |  41.67% |
| 12   | Skarmory           |   10 |  15.15% |  60.00% |
| 13   | Umbreon            |    9 |  13.64% |  55.56% |
| 14   | Golem              |    7 |  10.61% |  57.14% |
| 15   | Blissey            |    5 |   7.58% |  60.00% |
| 16   | Raikou             |    4 |   6.06% |  50.00% |
| 16   | Gengar             |    4 |   6.06% |  50.00% |
| 16   | Rhydon             |    4 |   6.06% |  25.00% |
| 16   | Jolteon            |    4 |   6.06% |   0.00% |
| 20   | Heracross          |    3 |   4.55% |  66.67% |
| 21   | Vaporeon           |    2 |   3.03% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Muk                |    1 |   1.52% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Misdreavus         |    1 |   1.52% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Miltank            |    1 |   1.52% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Marowak            |    1 |   1.52% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Shuckle            |    1 |   1.52% |   0.00% |

• Missing 1 Pokemon from THE PIRATE99.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from FLARESS.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from THEKAISSER.
• Missing 3 Pokemon from MR378.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from FLARESS.

Leads

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Leads                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Mewtwo                  |   32 |  48.48% |  43.75% |
| 2    | Snorlax                 |   15 |  22.73% |  40.00% |
| 3    | Forretress              |    6 |   9.09% |  66.67% |
| 4    | Tyranitar               |    4 |   6.06% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Raikou                  |    2 |   3.03% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Mew                     |    2 |   3.03% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Zapdos                  |    2 |   3.03% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Umbreon                 |    1 |   1.52% | 100.00% |
| 8    | Celebi                  |    1 |   1.52% | 100.00% |
| 8    | Cloyster                |    1 |   1.52% |   0.00% |

Move stats

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | [Snorlax]               |   65 |  98.48% |  49.23% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Lovely Kiss             |   43 |  66.15% |  46.51% |
| 2    | Curse                   |   30 |  46.15% |  43.33% |
| 3    | Double-Edge             |   26 |  40.00% |  46.15% |
| 4    | Rest                    |   20 |  30.77% |  55.00% |
| 5    | Belly Drum              |   10 |  15.38% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Self-Destruct           |   10 |  15.38% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Body Slam               |   10 |  15.38% |  40.00% |
| 8    | Return                  |    7 |  10.77% |  42.86% |
| 9    | Sleep Talk              |    5 |   7.69% | 100.00% |
| 9    | Frustration             |    5 |   7.69% |  60.00% |
| 11   | Earthquake              |    4 |   6.15% |  25.00% |
| 12   | Rock Slide              |    1 |   1.54% | 100.00% |
| 12   | Thunder                 |    1 |   1.54% | 100.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 2    | [Mewtwo]                |   52 |  78.79% |  42.31% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Self-Destruct           |   29 |  55.77% |  37.93% |
| 2    | Thunder                 |   19 |  36.54% |  47.37% |
| 3    | Ice Beam                |   15 |  28.85% |  60.00% |
| 4    | Flamethrower            |   12 |  23.08% |  41.67% |
| 5    | Recover                 |   11 |  21.15% |  54.55% |
| 6    | Submission              |    8 |  15.38% |  25.00% |
| 7    | Toxic                   |    7 |  13.46% |  71.43% |
| 7    | Thunder Wave            |    7 |  13.46% |  28.57% |
| 7    | Psychic                 |    7 |  13.46% |  14.29% |
| 10   | Blizzard                |    5 |   9.62% |  40.00% |
| 10   | Fire Blast              |    5 |   9.62% |  40.00% |
| 12   | Curse                   |    4 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Thunderbolt             |    4 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Dynamic Punch           |    3 |   5.77% |  33.33% |
| 15   | Shadow Ball             |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 3    | [Mew]                   |   47 |  71.21% |  46.81% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Swords Dance            |   33 |  70.21% |  42.42% |
| 2    | Explosion               |   18 |  38.30% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Submission              |   11 |  23.40% |  36.36% |
| 3    | Earthquake              |   11 |  23.40% |  27.27% |
| 5    | Soft-Boiled             |   10 |  21.28% |  70.00% |
| 5    | Shadow Ball             |   10 |  21.28% |  40.00% |
| 7    | Rock Slide              |    4 |   8.51% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Thunder Wave            |    3 |   6.38% |  66.67% |
| 9    | Fire Blast              |    2 |   4.26% | 100.00% |
| 10   | Thief                   |    1 |   2.13% |   0.00% |
| 10   | Transform               |    1 |   2.13% |   0.00% |
| 10   | Spikes                  |    1 |   2.13% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 4    | [Zapdos]                |   39 |  59.09% |  48.72% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Thunder                 |   31 |  79.49% |  51.61% |
| 2    | Hidden Power            |   17 |  43.59% |  47.06% |
| 3    | Rest                    |   12 |  30.77% |  58.33% |
| 4    | Sleep Talk              |   10 |  25.64% |  70.00% |
| 5    | Whirlwind               |    9 |  23.08% |  44.44% |
| 6    | Reflect                 |    6 |  15.38% |  66.67% |
| 6    | Thunder Wave            |    6 |  15.38% |  33.33% |
| 8    | Light Screen            |    2 |   5.13% |  50.00% |
| 9    | Thunderbolt             |    1 |   2.56% | 100.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 5    | [Forretress]            |   26 |  39.39% |  57.69% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Spikes                  |   23 |  88.46% |  60.87% |
| 2    | Rapid Spin              |    9 |  34.62% |  66.67% |
| 2    | Hidden Power            |    9 |  34.62% |  44.44% |
| 4    | Explosion               |    8 |  30.77% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Toxic                   |    6 |  23.08% |  33.33% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 6    | [Lugia]                 |   25 |  37.88% |  56.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Curse                   |   17 |  68.00% |  47.06% |
| 2    | Aeroblast               |   15 |  60.00% |  53.33% |
| 3    | Whirlwind               |   12 |  48.00% |  58.33% |
| 4    | Recover                 |   10 |  40.00% |  60.00% |
| 5    | Hidden Power            |    1 |   4.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Earthquake              |    1 |   4.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Ice Beam                |    1 |   4.00% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 7    | [Steelix]               |   23 |  34.85% |  65.22% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Roar                    |   14 |  60.87% |  71.43% |
| 1    | Explosion               |   14 |  60.87% |  64.29% |
| 3    | Curse                   |   13 |  56.52% |  61.54% |
| 4    | Iron Tail               |    9 |  39.13% |  55.56% |
| 5    | Earthquake              |    2 |   8.70% |   0.00% |
| 6    | Sleep Talk              |    1 |   4.35% |   0.00% |
| 6    | Return                  |    1 |   4.35% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 8    | [Cloyster]              |   16 |  24.24% |  31.25% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Spikes                  |   14 |  87.50% |  35.71% |
| 2    | Surf                    |    8 |  50.00% |  25.00% |
| 2    | Explosion               |    8 |  50.00% |  25.00% |
| 4    | Ice Beam                |    6 |  37.50% |  83.33% |
| 5    | Icy Wind                |    2 |  12.50% |   0.00% |
| 6    | Rapid Spin              |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 9    | [Celebi]                |   15 |  22.73% |  60.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Heal Bell               |   12 |  80.00% |  58.33% |
| 2    | Leech Seed              |   10 |  66.67% |  60.00% |
| 3    | Recover                 |    7 |  46.67% |  57.14% |
| 4    | Toxic                   |    4 |  26.67% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Hidden Power            |    1 |   6.67% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Defense Curl            |    1 |   6.67% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Baton Pass              |    1 |   6.67% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Giga Drain              |    1 |   6.67% |   0.00% |
| 5    | Psychic                 |    1 |   6.67% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 10   | [Tyranitar]             |   12 |  18.18% |  41.67% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Crunch                  |   11 |  91.67% |  45.45% |
| 2    | Roar                    |    4 |  33.33% |  25.00% |
| 3    | Pursuit                 |    3 |  25.00% |  66.67% |
| 3    | Rock Slide              |    3 |  25.00% |  33.33% |
| 5    | Dynamic Punch           |    2 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Fire Blast              |    2 |  16.67% |   0.00% |
| 7    | Flamethrower            |    1 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 7    | Ice Beam                |    1 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 7    | Rest                    |    1 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 10   | [Ho-Oh]                 |   12 |  18.18% |  50.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Recover                 |    8 |  66.67% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Toxic                   |    7 |  58.33% |  57.14% |
| 2    | Whirlwind               |    7 |  58.33% |  57.14% |
| 4    | Flamethrower            |    6 |  50.00% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Sacred Fire             |    5 |  41.67% |  40.00% |
| 6    | Ancient Power           |    2 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 7    | Earthquake              |    1 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 7    | Nightmare               |    1 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 7    | Hidden Power            |    1 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 12   | [Skarmory]              |   10 |  15.15% |  60.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Whirlwind               |    5 |  50.00% |  60.00% |
| 1    | Rest                    |    5 |  50.00% |  60.00% |
| 1    | Toxic                   |    5 |  50.00% |  40.00% |
| 4    | Drill Peck              |    4 |  40.00% |  25.00% |
| 5    | Curse                   |    3 |  30.00% | 100.00% |
| 6    | Sleep Talk              |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 6    | Thief                   |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 13   | [Umbreon]               |    9 |  13.64% |  55.56% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Charm                   |    7 |  77.78% |  57.14% |
| 2    | Mean Look               |    5 |  55.56% |  60.00% |
| 3    | Rest                    |    4 |  44.44% |  75.00% |
| 3    | Baton Pass              |    4 |  44.44% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Pursuit                 |    2 |  22.22% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Sleep Talk              |    2 |  22.22% |  50.00% |
| 7    | Toxic                   |    1 |  11.11% | 100.00% |
| 7    | Zap Cannon              |    1 |  11.11% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 14   | [Golem]                 |    7 |  10.61% |  57.14% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Explosion               |    4 |  57.14% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Earthquake              |    3 |  42.86% |  66.67% |
| 2    | Roar                    |    3 |  42.86% |  66.67% |
| 4    | Rapid Spin              |    2 |  28.57% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Rock Slide              |    1 |  14.29% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 15   | [Blissey]               |    5 |   7.58% |  60.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Toxic                   |    4 |  80.00% |  75.00% |
| 2    | Flamethrower            |    3 |  60.00% |  33.33% |
| 2    | Present                 |    3 |  60.00% |  33.33% |
| 4    | Soft-Boiled             |    2 |  40.00% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Heal Bell               |    2 |  40.00% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Light Screen            |    1 |  20.00% | 100.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 16   | [Raikou]                |    4 |   6.06% |  50.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Reflect                 |    3 |  75.00% |  66.67% |
| 2    | Roar                    |    2 |  50.00% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Thunder                 |    2 |  50.00% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Toxic                   |    1 |  25.00% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 16   | [Jolteon]               |    4 |   6.06% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Growth                  |    4 | 100.00% |   0.00% |
| 2    | Thunder                 |    3 |  75.00% |   0.00% |
| 3    | Baton Pass              |    2 |  50.00% |   0.00% |
| 4    | Hidden Power            |    1 |  25.00% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 16   | [Rhydon]                |    4 |   6.06% |  25.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Rock Slide              |    4 | 100.00% |  25.00% |
| 2    | Curse                   |    3 |  75.00% |  33.33% |
| 3    | Earthquake              |    1 |  25.00% | 100.00% |
| 3    | Roar                    |    1 |  25.00% |   0.00% |
| 3    | Hidden Power            |    1 |  25.00% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 16   | [Gengar]                |    4 |   6.06% |  50.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Thunder                 |    3 |  75.00% |  33.33% |
| 2    | Hypnosis                |    2 |  50.00% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Thunderbolt             |    1 |  25.00% | 100.00% |
| 3    | Fire Punch              |    1 |  25.00% |   0.00% |
| 3    | Nightmare               |    1 |  25.00% |   0.00% |
| 3    | Explosion               |    1 |  25.00% |   0.00% |
| 3    | Ice Punch               |    1 |  25.00% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 20   | [Heracross]             |    3 |   4.55% |  66.67% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Megahorn                |    3 | 100.00% |  66.67% |
| 2    | Curse                   |    1 |  33.33% | 100.00% |
| 2    | Rest                    |    1 |  33.33% | 100.00% |
| 2    | Sleep Talk              |    1 |  33.33% | 100.00% |
| 2    | Seismic Toss            |    1 |  33.33% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 21   | [Vaporeon]              |    2 |   3.03% |  50.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Growth                  |    1 |  50.00% |   0.00% |
| 1    | Surf                    |    1 |  50.00% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 22   | [Muk]                   |    1 |   1.52% | 100.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Curse                   |    1 | 100.00% | 100.00% |
| 1    | Sludge Bomb             |    1 | 100.00% | 100.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 22   | [Marowak]               |    1 |   1.52% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Swords Dance            |    1 | 100.00% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 22   | [Misdreavus]            |    1 |   1.52% | 100.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Mean Look               |    1 | 100.00% | 100.00% |
| 1    | Protect                 |    1 | 100.00% | 100.00% |
| 1    | Perish Song             |    1 | 100.00% | 100.00% |
| 1    | Confuse Ray             |    1 | 100.00% | 100.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 22   | [Miltank]               |    1 |   1.52% | 100.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Heal Bell               |    1 | 100.00% | 100.00% |
| 1    | Growl                   |    1 | 100.00% | 100.00% |
| 1    | Body Slam               |    1 | 100.00% | 100.00% |
| 1    | Milk Drink              |    1 | 100.00% | 100.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon                 | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 22   | [Shuckle]               |    1 |   1.52% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Moves                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Encore                  |    1 | 100.00% |   0.00% |
| 1    | Defense Curl            |    1 | 100.00% |   0.00% |
| 1    | Rest                    |    1 | 100.00% |   0.00% |
| 1    | Sleep Talk              |    1 | 100.00% |   0.00% |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +

The first thing that strikes me about these stats is Snorlax's nearly-100% usage rate. I must admit that there is a very strong case for Snorlax being the best Pokemon in the whole generation. Snorlax has numerous good sets in this tier too, as can be seen by the decent variety on display in the moves section. LK Curselax remains the most popular option by a large margin, but LK Drumlax had an equally good performance. Rest Sleep Talk Snorlax, most of which I assume was me, was not popular but very successful. A few people had EQ Snorlax, presumably on heavy stall or to keep their opponent honest, but EQ Lax teams don't appear to have been too successful overall. Even Rock Slide Snorlax was used, which admittedly probably has a slightly better niche in this metagame...

Mewtwo and Mew, two offensive juggernauts, were both sub-50% win rate this tournament. The move stats for Mewtwo indicate that defensive sets with Recover and Toxic were more successful than their self-destructive offensive counterparts (although the standard Toxic Recover Mewtwo also has Self-Destruct). Of the coverage moves used, it looks as though Ice Beam was the most effective. Coverage options that did poorly were Psychic, Submission, and Shadow Ball. Thunder Wave Mewtwo also had surprisingly mediocre results. In Mew's case, almost all of the Mew usage appears to have been SD, with close to twice as many choosing Explosion over Soft-Boiled. There seems to have been an even split in terms of Submission vs Earthquake coverage, which were probably complemented by Shadow Ball and Rock Slide, respectively. When Mew opted for (and had the opportunity to reveal) what is perhaps its most potent sweeper set with Fire Blast, it won each time. Unlike Mewtwo, Mew that revealed Explosion were reasonably successful, even moreso in the case of Soft-Boiled at 70% win rate. What I think this shows is that Mew were often exploded on or otherwise KOed before they got the opportunity to explode themselves.

Zapdos came in as the fourth most used. I think Zapdos is one of the best Pokemon in the metagame and I think I used it in almost every game I played. It's by far the best Lugia answer and very little can take Spikes + Thunder beatings for long. RestTalk was a more successful choice than TWave Whirlwind sets which is unsurprising since I only used RestTalk and I won the tour, but I feel the flexibility offered by RestTalk with a coverage Hidden Power is hard to top. Interestingly, while HP Water was certainly the most common option, HP Fire was also used in one game to hit both Steelix and Celebi. This does risk missing out on Rhydon and Golem though, which are actually somewhat relevant.

In contrast with the offensive legendaries' negative win rates, the defensive trio of Forretress, Lugia, and Steelix all posted positive win rates for the tournament, with Steelix having the highest win rate in the tournament of Pokemon used five times or more. Forretress and Steelix are both fantastic at capitalising on Monolax, which is everywhere. Lugia is the most potent end game sweeper by a long shot, as long as key opposing Pokemon like Zapdos and Steelix can be weakened or removed.

Cloyster was quite unsuccessful, although seemed to do well with Ice Beam. A notable theme in these stats is that while Forretress was quite successful, clearly it is possible to succeed without Spikes in Ubers.

Celebi did quite well this tour with its Heal Bell support proving to be valuable. One thing of note here is that it lost almost every game in which it bothered to use an attacking move. Someone also used the DCurl BP set and won, though not sure if it was useful. I suspect Celebi teams' success will lead to a rise in the popularity of Drumlax teams in battles between top players.

Tied in 10th place were Ho-Oh and Tyranitar, two of the Pokemon whose performances I am most interested in this tour. Ho-Oh was used to quite a lot of success by Conflict this tour, who saw its potential as a Spikes-immune tanky phazer with Fire + Toxic coverage keeping the pressure on in terms of residual damage as well as providing no opportunity for Pokemon like Forretress, Skarmory, Steelix, and Celebi to set up or heal, something many of the other similar options lack. Adding a second tanky Flying-type enables the user to play for a draw in certain situations where the Spikes game has been lost as well. Tyranitar saw great success as an anti-lead with Pursuit trapping the ridiculously common Mewtwo lead, and did decently as a four attacks wallbreaker thanks to its unique typing and stats as well as metagame trends favouring it. However, it did not achieve a positive win rate this tour. One thing that surprised me was the absence of any Cursetar, which in theory should be quite a strong pick (although mono-Rock Slide might risk running into Steelix).

Skarmory, Umbreon, and Blissey, in line with the trend towards successful defensive Pokemon, all had positive win rates in this tour. Skarmory appears to have had the most success dropping or not using Drill Peck and instead purely focusing on defensive functioning, as did Blissey. Umbreon had the same split between ML Pass and RestTalk as in OU, with ML Pass appearing to be marginally more successful.

Golem was a lot more successful than Rhydon, its powerful Explosion and phazing abilities clearly coming in handy in a metagame with so much Snorlax. Rapid Spin was also used a couple of times.

Raikou was used surprisingly little, although it appears to have had success when using Reflect. Jolteon somehow didn't win a single game.

A few people tried to take advantage of Monolax being everywhere by bringing Gengar or Misdreavus. It appears to have been moderately successful, with PTrap Missy having won the game it was in.

Niche Pokemon seen included Heracross, one of the better answers to Mew that also hits Mewtwo and Snorlax hard, which won 2 of 3 games (and I'm pretty sure one of those games included 2 Heracross); Vaporeon which didn't use any attacks in the game it won but is something that must be considered in the teambuilder due to its unique traits; Muk, which has a surprisingly good niche in a metagame full of Psychic-types that don't use STAB attacks, including a good matchup against the SB/Submission Mew variant; and Marowak and Shuckle which were unsuccessful.

I think there were virtually no notable absences; pretty much everything I mentioned in the OP was at least tried except for Scizor. I do think that Raikou usage was much lower than I'd expect though, as mentioned.

------------

I am going to look into the possibility of making a 2019 GSC Ubers VR. I'm planning to check who would be interested in the Ubers and GSC communities first and then try to figure out the method (but right now I am considering doing a public survey or form with biased weighting). If anyone has any ideas for this, let me know.

 

[CPU]

It's probably just a glitch in the stats but it says at least one Mew ran Spikes, a move that as far as I am aware Mew has never been able to learn.

Is there a source I'm unaware of or is it just a glitch/result of using Transform?

 

[Earthworm]

It's probably just a glitch in the stats but it says at least one Mew ran Spikes, a move that as far as I am aware Mew has never been able to learn.

Is there a source I'm unaware of or is it just a glitch/result of using Transform?

Yep, it was from a game where Mew transformed into Forretress: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2ubers-955053230

 

[Earthworm]

I have asked around and it seems there's enough interest to do a 2019 GSC Ubers VR. If you'd like to participate, the link to the survey is here.

Jame$ G zf Eeveeto I am hoping you can participate (I have notified others elsewhere). Maybe Ortheore and Kaisser too if interested.

Please note, as I have made this survey public I will most likely be weighting the responses, i.e. not everyone's opinions will count equally. I will publicise how each response was weighted afterwards.

 

[Beelzemon 2003]

Earthworm I answered the survey matey. Remember that I am the four times champion of Gen 2 Ubers with Item Clause, which has some similarities with normal Gen 2 Ubers. I added Aerodactyl because it threatens Ho-Oh, and can Curse to stop Lugia. I also added Machamp (it One KO Hits Snorlax with Cross Chop 20 % of the time), Suicune (it is bulky, has Rest Talk, Toxic, Mirror Coat and can Roar a Ho-Oh that spams Ancient Power), Blastoise (niche, but has good defenses, Rapid Spin, Haze, Ice Beam and Rest, which is good in a meta where Heal Bell users are common) and Pikachu (super frail and doens't like Spikes, but One KO Hits Skarmory, Cloyster, Golem, Rhydon and hits hard Lugia).

 

[Earthworm]

Earthworm I answered the survey matey. Remember that I am the four times champion of Gen 2 Ubers with Item Clause, which has some similarities with normal Gen 2 Ubers. I added Aerodactyl because it threatens Ho-Oh, and can Curse to stop Lugia. I also added Machamp (it One KO Hits Snorlax with Cross Chop 20 % of the time), Suicune (it is bulky, has Rest Talk, Toxic, Mirror Coat and can Roar a Ho-Oh that spams Ancient Power), Blastoise (niche, but has good defenses, Rapid Spin, Haze, Ice Beam and Rest, which is good in a meta where Heal Bell users are common) and Pikachu (super frail and doens't like Spikes, but One KO Hits Skarmory, Cloyster, Golem, Rhydon and hits hard Lugia).

Thanks for making a submission. Honestly, if the trend continues where the numerous Psychic-types don't use their STAB attack much, Machamp may actually be a decent choice. Aerodactyl also probably has a niche to some extent as well since it has numerous useful and unique defensive traits. The others I am less convinced about, but I am of course open to being proven wrong about them.


I am most likely going to close the survey in just over a week.

 

[Ortheore]

Unfortunately I don't think I'm in a position to comment on the VR- although I'm interested in gsc ubers, it has been a while since I've played, as I'm just not active that much atm

 

[Ropalme1914]

Just out of curiosity: doesn't the Ubers forum already have a viability ranking for GSC on the Ubers old gens hub? Is this going to be totally apart from it or just an update?

 

[Earthworm]

Just out of curiosity: doesn't the Ubers forum already have a viability ranking for GSC on the Ubers old gens hub? Is this going to be totally apart from it or just an update?

Yes, but it is very old (edit: it's not actually as old as I thought). Ideally they will update theirs to reflect what we end up with here. I will check with the Ubers leaders to ensure we are on the same page, however it is my understanding that the Ubers community has had limited interest in RBY/GSC Ubers in general so hopefully they won't be too wedded to the existing VR to acknowledge the upcoming 2019 VR as being the better resource.

 

[Beelzemon 2003]

I think that the "problem" with Gen 2 Ubers is that the five Uber pokémon are more bulky than the best OU pokémon: all of them have very high Hit Points, a one turn recovery move, and, finally, two of them are immune to Spikes, this makes games longer, which is saying a lot considering that many think that Gen 2 OU is already "slow".

In the eyes of newcomers or casual players, Gen 2 Ubers games might seem slow to the point that the monsters involved might seem to be immortal.

This is the format where I've had less complaints when the players use Item Clause, because, even with the removal of Leftovers on five mons, the matches are still "stally" like in Normal Gen 2 OU.

By the way, the intention of this post is to share my opinion, not to force everyone to quit playing Ubers, in fact, I like this format.