Implemented GSC UU Baton Pass

[Estarossa]

approved by Lily

This is a topic i've been wanting to bring up since last UUSD, but decided to wait for UUPL to happen to see if trends around it continued or worsened. It's been a controversial subject in the past but attitudes this UUPL have trended quite heavily towards wanting to take action on Baton Pass, whether this is a vocal minority or not is another matter but this thread should hopefully be able to ascertain whether the playerbase actually considers it an issue worth addressing.

The primary issue with Baton Pass within this tier is for certain Agility Pass Girafarig into Belly Drum Quagsire, and to a lesser extent into Belly Drum Politoed (these two often being seen together on the same team in UUPL in particular). The game ending potential of this is undeniable if allowed to set up, unless the opponent has one of the particularly rare counters to a +6 Attack +2 Speed Quagsire, either Haze Crobat, only seen on Stall, Counter Gligar, an extremely rare Pokemon in general but one who also has more appealing sets such as ThiefScreech anyway, or Bellossom in the case of a non Sludge Bomb Quagsire, who would most likely be running Protect instead but this isn't super common. While other Belly Drum users such as Politoed (lord Bubba) don't posess the same power level due to a lack of STAB move, letting more common Pokemon such as Piloswine, Slowbro etc tank a +6 hit, it can certianly more than make up for this with its bulk and access to Lovely Kiss to cause similar issues, these Politoed builds saw a particularly large amount of usage in UUPL especially from Gorgie.

But can't you stop this initial pass from happening? Not necessarily and not super easily. Your typical methods on non Stall teams of shutting down stuff like SD Pass Scyther such as Haze Qwilfish or Roar Gyarados fail due to coverage from Girafarig to hit them supereffectively with Psychic and/or Thunder(bolt). Jumpluff isn't necessarily as easy to deal with, but it is certainly not infalliable, having to beware of Thunder paras from users such as Girafarig/Mr. Mime, and having to deal with the fact that Encore is too slow to stop a Baton Pass after Agility, leaving it having to Stun Spore the entry Pokemon, but this can still let the Girafarig user Baton Pass into an intermediary passer such as Scyther or Mr. Mime to absorb Para and then bring in your threat such as Lovely Kiss Politoed safely at +2 Speed.

The option of using offensive pressure to break chains is certainly an option too, Granbull and Piloswine for instance can both pressure Girafarig well and make passing into a Quagsire that wants to try and set up afterwards unreliable. These options are again still not necessarily super reliable, Piloswine can be used for a Politoed to potentially break through, while Granbull can be done similarly if not running RestTalk, but if it is then popular Normal-resists like Haunter and Magneton on these Baton Pass teams can fairly comfortably shut it down while Granbull is potentially being chipped a fair bit trying to come in on the chains, eventually forcing it to be asleep and more unreliable.

Baton Pass teams can certainly explore beyond the simple standard however, and make some of these more standard counterplays more unreliable. Options such as using a Barrier Mr. Mime as an intermediary step make offensive pressure hard to be reliable against Baton Pass, while also being able to potentially shut down the more annoying to deal with Jumpluff with a well timed Hypnosis, or a Substitute pass to prevent Stun Spores. Girafarig can certainly run Amnesia + Agility + Thunder(bolt) + Baton Pass too, at the cost of not being able to hit Grounds, to really make the recivers nigh unkillable from either side without crits. We've even seen more unique Baton pass'ing structures such as Curse/Meditate Pass Mime that can easily fit onto a standard balance structure, feign a normal RestTalk Mime, and take advantage of traditional defensive counterplay such as Hypno while breaking through your typical Phasers or counterplay.

Is Baton Pass just a valid playstyle in GSC UU though or is it uncompetitive or unhealthily warping on building? I would argue the latter, its game ending potentially is far too strong and forces your opponent to commit to questionable or risky plays to potentially stop it, or commit to throwing Pokemon vulnerable to getting sgnificantly worn down at the passers to briefly stop them while the Baton Pass user has no need to immediately commit themself, and traditional counterplay can be woefully insufficient without considerably perfect play + stacking of multiple countermeasures, and more reliable answers are either awkward to fit in the case of Gligar / Crobat or awful sets like Roar Piloswine that are completely unviable outside of this scenario.

So yea I definitely think Agility + Baton Pass is an unhealthy element who's removal would be a positive addition to this tier. But I definitely don't think doing this complex ban would truly be desirable, both because of obviously being a complex ban but also because I think there's still some nasty room for fishing matchups against traditional SD Passing Scyther counterplay such as Roar Gyarados and Haze Crobat with routes such as Amnesia + Curse Pass Giraffe + Substitute + Barrier Pass Mr. Mime into all manner of various threats such as Nidoqueen (see: screenshot at start), Granbull, Piloswine, that while faltering against stuff like Encore Mime or Jumpluff, would otherwise have very serious potential to fish solid matchups, and these Pokemon still don't end up having particularly high usage in the end, noticeably Jumpluff only recieved 7% usage in UUPL and most Mr. Mimes were as usual RestTalk, with traditionally useful options like Thief, Thunder Wave and Hypnosis still competing for the slot on non Rest Mimes, who traditionally are much harder to fit on teams due to no longer serving as a real Psychic check.

| 25 | Jumpluff | 4 | 6.90% | 50.00% |

The ability for Baton Pass teams to explore more adventurous routes that can 6-0 teams that would otherwise be fairly comfortable against traditional Agility Pass BP teams is certainly a noteworthy addition, a prime example of this being Lax's team in Week 1 of UUSD (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2uu-592528), while my team possessed a Jumpluff, Gyarados, and MonoBull, it was woefully insufficient at keeping the threat of Curse Pass Mime under bay, with Jumpluff being extremely vulnerable once it got Thunder Para'd and slower than a -1 Mime, and Bull unable to really do anything beyond briefly stop chains due to the presence of a Haunter. This matchup would have admittedly been more comfortable if my Jumpluff had had Stun Spore but would have still created opportunities for Pluff Full Paras and Leftovers recovery for Mime, and the game still definitely demonstrates some of BP's potential to explore other routes.

Another example of Mime being able to explore these methods to break through any phazing/hazing measures would be my UUPL Week 2 match vs HSA (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2uu-612952). Loading into the stall MU Mime managed to achieve something that no other Stat booster could really accomplish, in being able to pass attack boosts through a Crobat stall team, which would usually shut off SD Scyther builds dead in their tracks, opening up a lot of opportunities for a boosted Dodrio to potentially break through and win this game with a single well timed crit against Shuckle. While Dodrio ended up only getting a single Drill Peck crit that ended up being absorbed by a lucky Sleep Talk, this Dodrio was primed with an incredibly solid chance at having broken through traditional Attack boosting counterplay if it could land that timely crit with its massive PP.

In the fight to nuke all potential fishing options of Baton Pass, a strategy that I do believe to generally be an unhealthy option that only adds more room to fish in matchups and create auto-win opportunities, SD Pass Scyther is unfortunately collateral damage unless you want to create an even more complex ban that bans both Agility Pass and multiple stat passes. Is this really a particularly noticeable sacrifice that would be a negative impact on the tier? In my opinion not really, SD Pass Scyther in general is seeing a bit of a low point in terms of its reliability, with solid early game shut down options like Piloswine and Gyarados usage going through the roof, and often paired together, as well as its inability to do anything into the considerably rising on popularity Stall teams. SD Pass Scyther certainly has options against the latter two such as passing +2 into a Bull against Piloswine, or potential Roar/Hp Flying 50/50s from Gyarados that could get rewarded for Scyther usage, but the former in particular still induces further 50/50s typically since Piloswine will often force Bull to have to Rest first, leaving options such as Destiny Bond Haunter, Encore Jumpluff, or just an Omastar to wall it. SD Pass Scyther teams in the end end up being kind of high risk high reward cause of this, they can certainly land matchups where they are hugely threatening, but more often than not leave you either with the strategy entirely shut down (eg. Stall Matchup) or with having to significantly outplay your opponent and potentially playing fairly 5/5.5v6 for a lot of the earlier game. What has been seeing more usage in general is standalone Scyther sets such as SD Light Screen or SD 3 attacks sets (capable of breaking through Piloswine and Gyarados but unable to pass stuff). These sets are definitely more appealing in the current meta to me and would still thrive if Baton Pass was fully nuked, so I don't really believe Scyther would suffer too heavily.

In the end imo there's only three real options as far as Baton Pass goes, to avoid making a considerably complex clause in order to preserve Scyther.

1) Ban Baton Pass
2) Ban Agility + Baton Pass combination
3) Do Nothing

I've compiled below the list of UUPL games where Agility Pass into Belly Drummers was used, in particular Politoed + Quagsire variants were used in 5/6 of these games.

Baton Pass Games from UUPL

Bubba - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2uu-613849
Bubba - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2uu-616430
Bubba - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2uu-616453
Bubba - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2uu-617408
Bubba - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2uu-617942
Bubba - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2uu-622099
AgiliQuag - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2uu-615010

 

[Dorron]

Ok I don't want to sound radical nor talking a bit from ignorance, but:

If you are like, making a Baton Pass thread each 2 months (literally 8 threads in 16 months + Voting ones) for a specific Old Gen Low Tier, why don't we just limit the move the same way for every single OGLT in a way we make sure it isn't broken? I think that a clause that didn't allow you to bring boosting moves / items / abilities alongside Baton Pass wouldn't break any tier and would save time posting on these threads about tiers that need a lot of discussion to achieve a consensus. I don't want to (and don't need to) see twenty more replays of a Baton Pass team 6-0ing in any OGLT to realize Baton Pass is, was and will always be stupid for 90% of the metagames.

And don't complain about it being a complex ban. Baton Pass has been balanced in OGLT with complex bans for a long time and this is the easiest way to make sure it isn't broken but usable.

e: we could simply ban it from everywhere and that's it. Simpler, more efficient.

 

[DAWNBUSTER]

hello hello, as one of the 4 ppl to main this stupid tier AND one of the main ppl with a lot of experience playing vs and spamming agility pass bc i Suck, i dont think baton pass is broken at all, and in fact the ppl i see calling it broken are the same ppl to Light Screen Turn 1 Vs Girafarig and make other misplays vs it….but at the same time this shit doesnt provide anything meaningful to the tier and is another annoying thing to account for in the builder in a tier already kinda constrained in building….so who rly cares ROFL nuke it. as for what to ban, option 1 is ass dont do it, option 2 is better because you wanna preserve sd pass scyther. agility pass is also the only type of bp you could make any sensible argument for it being “broken”. btw, the best baton pass strat in gsc uu is to use lead thunder girafarig and restalk hp ground bull on the teams its Pretty Good.

tldr ban agility + baton pass bc theres no reason to have it.

 

[Jade]

I started playing this tier recently (a few months ago in fact) and its been great fun! Then holly spams me with Baton Pass tests and I get sad.

Jokes aside, from my experience Baton Pass has been a constant threat both in builder in the game. Oftentimes you cannot afford to make a single mistake against BP or suddenly you have a +6 +2 Quagsire / Politoed staring into your soul through the screen. I think as a whole, this is what makes Baton Pass an unhealthy element. The inability to misplay for most teams to make any room for error is absolutely cringe and I don't think it provides anything for the tier that is healthy.

Imo Option 1 is the best move, Estarossa can contest to the fact that Baton Pass doesn't necessarily need Agility to be threatening. The screenshot in the OP says it all lol. I think preserving mons like SD Pass Scyther or BP Mime is not worth banning it as a whole and trying to work out a complex ban. Just delete Baton Pass as a whole and be done with it.

To end this post, here is some screenshots of me getting destroyed by random mons assisted by Baton Pass because The Show enjoys my suffering.

lol

 

[Mr.378]

To make this brief, let's remove BP.

It's a dumb element that the tier really cannot handle well and adds nothing to it. As opposed to say OU UU is much more lacking in phasers and the ones that do exist almost never want to run a phasing move except for BP chains. BP chains and even quick pass can even nullify their supposed counters very well because of how many options they have and how few real answers there can be. Scyther alone is a massive pain and much more of a threat then it should be because of its ability to just with with the right pass.

So to leave this short I would be in support of removing BP as a whole from GSC UU.

 

[Earthworm]

I enjoy Baton Pass in GSC UU. It provides a refreshing alternative or a high-risk high-reward option that you can use in an innovative way to add extra offense to your team or individual Pokemon. There are adequate strategies to deal with most strategies involving Baton Pass in this metagame. Once you have the prerequisite knowledge of how you can play against the strategies, you will typically do fine against them. The knowledge required is basically "what boosting moves can that Pokemon use", "when is the best time to send out my Haze or Roar user", "when should I use my status moves", "who are the recipients I will need to put pressure on / which Pokemon should I avoid sending out to deal with those". There is a learning curve during which you will probably suffer frustrating losses against Baton Pass strategies, but after that, typically the non-Baton Pass user will have the advantage. It does require more brainpower to deal with, since you are kind of facing multiple Pokemon at once. You need to be thinking, "is that really a +2 Speed Girafarig I am fighting, or should I be clicking a move to target a +2 Speed Quagsire?" And you need to keep in mind that if they use Baton Pass, the opponent will know whether you switched or not already by the time they choose their Pokemon. These can be unintuitive if you haven't played against a lot of Baton Pass. I used to make the same errors, and when I've looked through my replays, even in this tier, I was embarrassed by how stupid I was. It can be a humbling experience, but it's not something that requires something as drastic as tiering action.

It is interesting that some of the replays presented in the OP are being used as arguments against keeping Baton Pass in the tier. For example, the estarossa vs HSA game I thought was an excellent display of preparing a team that could overcome defensive strategies in an innovative way, even though it didn't work. I struggle to see how this can be interpreted as a bad thing for the tier. It's not like Meditate Pass Mr. Mime is a revolutionary broken strategy, but the way it was employed into a predicted matchup was enjoyable as a spectator (as well as how HSA managed to figure out a way to win).

The game with lax is also kind of similar, but your team in that game was a horrible matchup into his (mono Bull, Sleep Powder Leech Seed Jumpluff, LS Hypno were all very disadvantageous sets). I'd be keen to see what Curse Pass Mr. Mime can do in further matchups.

 

[Celebiii]

Hey so I think a lot of the best points about BP have been made already (big thanks for Estarossa for taking the time to make this thread). Just to be clear on the points I agree with:

• Passing Agility onto Belly Drum Quagsire is in most circumstances the end of the game on the spot due to the extremely limited number of answers to the set, most of which are uncommon or not the most viable. Being expected to carry one of these answers on a team is unrealistic without making serious concessions to other threats in the tier. GSC UU is restrictive enough as is, and forcing one of these onto your team is an undesirable direction for the meta to go.
• Other answers to Baton Pass, namely Roar, are less hard to fit, but still come with costs. Gyarados is by far the easiest Pokemon to fit it on since its moveslots are fairly open outside of Hydro Pump and Thunder, but one cannot be expected to run Roar Gyarados on every team. Other Pokemon usually cannot run Roar without significantly impacting their effectiveness. This usually takes the form of losing a coverage move, an important support move, or Sleep Talk. For example, Blastoise, Granbull, and Piloswine can all use Roar, but Blastoise will be forced into losing Sleep Talk, Granbull will lose one of HP Ground, Curse, Rest, or Sleep Talk (or the rarer Thunder), and Piloswine will lose a STAB move or Sleep Talk. In the case of losing Sleep Talk, this can be somewhat allieviated with the use of Heal Bell, but again, this comes at cost. UU has only two Heal Bell users in Chansey and Granbull, pigeonholing your teambuilding even more if you choose to go this route. Additionally, Chansey only fits on certain teams, and Heal Bell Granbull comes at large opportunity cost of not running a more threatening Granbull set. The point is that running Roar comes at significant cost. Whirlwind is even tougher to fit.
• The Baton Pass user has significantly more room to make mistakes than the opponent fighting it. As mentioned by others, sending in the wrong Pokemon vs. the Baton Pass player can just result in an instant loss. For example, sending your Granbull (a sturdy Pokemon that can threaten members of the BP chain) in as soon as you recognize that the opposing team is a BP team is fine, but what if the Baton Pass player chooses to go into a Haunter as they see Granbull come in? What if they have Barrier? A sleep move? Paralysis? What if they just choose to go into something that can 2HKO Granbull, removing your only BP counterplay? The point is that the risk:reward ratio is skewed so that the person facing BP has significantly less room to make mistakes, and one wrong move can end the game on the spot. This is unhealthy.

I won't repeat the points others have made (any more than I already have haha), but I feel that one important possibility for action on Baton Pass has been left out and should be considered: allowing only DryPassing. I realize this would create a complex ban which is generally avoided, but Baton Pass is likely not problematic if Boosts/Substitutes/screens/etc. cannot be passed along with it, and would instead become just a useful pivoting tool. I believe this is a healthy way to retain the move without retaining the unhealthy strategies it can enable. That said, I'd also be fine with BP being banned entirely - just wanted DryPassing to be considered.

 

[avarice]

while a complex ban is appealing at first glance i don't think it's very likely and that action isnt really necessary in the first place. the OP is pretty comprehensive but there are still plenty of games where giraffe flops or doesnt even contribute much. i feel that a large amount of hate for baton pass is just "lol it's cheesy and i dont wanna prep for it" when it makes the tier more enjoyable for plenty. also, a decent amount of games where BP wins against teams made with counterplay kiindaaaa were just misplayed like torchic vs gorgie where jumpluff was sacked early on and hypno just gave giraffe free turns. BP is just more punishing rather than uncompetitive with mistakes made. obviously boils down to team compositions, but i still feel the room for misplays against BP is well in your control without completely faltering against the rest of the meta (OP already mentions counterplay so im not going to dive into it). given that this format is only for classic and team tours, scouting appropriately is p doable too. agree w earthworm that the unique mime sets that have rose from bp relevancy honestly are more of a pro than con against keeping baton pass as well.

also no bp scyth would be mega lame pls no changes.

 

[Celebiii]

Hello again, I am posting on behalf of Trevelion since they are unbadged at the time of writing.
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Looking at the above arguments and replays as well as talking with Estarossa and Celebiii, I believe the correct course of action is to ban baton pass + agility, as the issue of checking baton pass boils down to checks becoming less and less reasonable to include on a competitive team as the speed of the recipient rises higher and higher. For example, the only checks to an agility passed quagsire after it gets a Belly Drum off are Bellossom, an already niche pokemon which only works if the quagsire doesn't run Sludge Bomb, Haze Crobat, which is seen exclusively on stall teams, and electrode, which as well as being rarely seen outside of Hyper Offense teams, only has the option of exploding on Quag, as hp ice is already a staple moveslot for it. On the contrary, a Quagsire with belly drum and no speed boosts already faces an uphill battle with Haze Qwilfish, which is already included on the vast majority of teams in the tier, is outsped by granbull, piloswine, scyther, and nidoqueen, so it can be revenged by several popular pokemon already without being forced to dip into more niche picks to ensure that an agility Girafarig isn't an immediate loss.

 

[cherryb0ng]

Disclaimer
I am going to outline what I say mostly in the form of partial truths. You are free to disagree, but I am mostly attempting to formulate everything we said into something more coherent. (You can just skip to the last point written in big)

I too am a victim of Holly spamming the hell out of baton pass in friendlies. I honestly have no clue where I will begin with discussion.
I will start by saying that our attention being drawn to Baton Pass may be due to more than just how we are playing in the current meta and what the current state of Gen 2 under used represents. It may have to do with external factors as well, believe it or not.

My take on most of what was said above
Between what Estarossa, Mr.378, The pirate and Holly are saying (4 of the most knowledgeable people I know when it comes to this tier), there are evidently conflicting points of view on the debate of what fate should be reserved for Baton Pass and this may be because we are all in a hurry for some reason to shine light on its issues in a not so coherent way, partly because it is discussion that is following GSC OU which is also having problems.
Clearly all 4 of you make good points and for good reasons. And though I had rather strong opinions for Baton Pass, especially the fact that the only 2 viable haze users (qwilfish and crobat) are weak to Psychic and the most common phazer is weak to Electric (Gyarados), I couldn't help but feel that my intentions may have been a bit missplaced if I simply wrote something down without wondering what exactly about BP doesn't make sense to me.

1. Mr.378 is easily one of the strongest players in the UUPL pool and knows how to avert the threats in a very proactive way, yet he recognises that the strategy can be harsh for those trying to build. Ideally I wouldn't want to ban Baton Pass for reasons I will explain below, however, I share with Mr.378 that if you guys simply want to ban the strategy because you've all had enough so be it. Not really the end of the world for me if things don't turn out exactly as I would have liked.
2. With Holly's statement (and the constant ass-whoopings she gave me in practice using BP) I absolutely agree that there simply are many people that tend to missplay against Girafarig specifically. I am not about to start teaching people how they should or shouldn't play if they do not use the damage calculator. Nobody specific comes in mind but I don't necessarily share the opinion others have that we should be allowed to make a mistake in play. This is silly. We are playing a competitive game and if we simply ban Baton Pass because we feel like it's too big a deal to make a mistake in one turn, I believe that we may be in ill faith. GSC has plenty of tools and requires you to use the utmost of your skillset to beat certain strategies. Everyone has come to accept that you cannot make a mistake vs Curse Snorlax in OU. Now as to whether or not BP in this tier has the same weight is another story and I will try to address that below.
3. It should go without saying that what Estarossa said makes sense and I don't sincerely have too many qualms with his arguments. Quagsire is indeed a threat thanks to agility + Baton Pass, Politoed less so. My main issue is the 3 options. I don't like the idea of banning Baton Pass, I don't know if I am prepared to ban agility like that and doing nothing simply won't cut it. I'll try proposing a solution in a second post.
4. Earthworm is someone I always let change my mind about things and I have faith in what he says when he means that Baton Pass brings something new to the UU metagame. It is true. The GSC UU metagame has evolved into something that no other tier in any generation has ever managed to balance, and that's Baton Pass. Baton Pass in GSC UU is an archetype, that's how we made it out to be. For a number of reasons in GSC there have been nearly no restrictions on how BP should work and we've managed it somehow until now. However, it is beginning to get out of hand.

So what's the big idea?

While looking more into the issues that surround GSC OU and comparing it to GSC UU, I couldn't help but wonder one thing. Why was Baton Pass ever accepted in the first place in this generation? This might sound surprising but the only reason I can come up with was the fact that it's not broken enough. Yes, BP is polarising because it is a strategy that allows a player to skip some steps in order to win, but that usually comes at a cost: that of being somewhat predictable and easy to handle once it's been roadblocked.

What is a move or strategy that comes to mind when you hear the word "degenerate"?
Would you say a degenerate strategy is something that is void of the traditional skills needed to be successful at the game? - If so, the bp does that. All those things like positioning, laying hazards and controlling them, weakening checks are all portions of the game that are less important (on the other hand for a typical setup sweeper like Sandslash, all of these are fundamental)
Would you say that a degenerate strategy removes defensive counter play? - They may or may not do that and to a certain degree, otherwise they wouldn't be degenerate. I wouldn't say that BP inherently does this. (Part of Estarossa's and Celebii's concern lies in this point),


What would you consider to be polarising?
The definition of a move or strategy that is polarising would be the excessive concentration of a technique or strategy.
In Pokemon there is no better example of something that is polarising like Snorlax in GSC. If it's so good, why isn't it banned?
The same occurs with Sleep. Nobody argues against the fact that it's good and it has the tendency to be broken. However, each of these two cases have a reason that they are still included in competitive strategies: there can be something rewarding in finding the correct counterplay against these strategies. GSC OU in particular handles Snorlax in a rather proactive way. With the plethora of phazers that can be used to stop Snorlax from just setting up and winning the defending team can now find an edge. Roar and Haze are likewise, also very effective to thwart Baton Pass user's plans. In neither case are they perfect and cannot work against a Curse Snorlax or a Baton Pass user 100% of the time.
This to me is what makes it healthy. You can have fun beating Baton Pass or Snorlax sometimes, not always lose or always win. Either extreme would be unhealthy. (This is where Earthworm's and Holly's perspective ring true)

For GSC UU Swords Dance Scyther vs Gyarados Roar is one of many healthy examples of interractions in the metagame and the main reason why I would be against banning Baton Pass outright from the tier. It's not perfect. Some would argue that the scenario favors Scyther, some that it favors Gyara. But it's interactive and trying to solve this is kind of fun in both scenarios. Scyther gets 2HKO'd by Gyarados and can get phazed out. Gyarados gets 2hko'd by certain sets (+2 Double Edge likely, +2 Return maybe, +2 Wing Attack not at all) if it chooses to Roar. Each player must make a weighted decision depending on what other options they might have to follow up.

The bottom line is that being an overcentralising strategy (a polarising one like Baton Pass) does not necessarily make it a degenerate one.



What makes BP degenerate and polarising in UU?

The fact of the matter is that UU doesn't have all of the same counterplay that OU might offer. Go figure. The worst pokemon go in the lower tier(s).

Despite having a lot of good about it, degenerate strategies don't need to be as polarising as a non degenerate one to be considered ban worthy. I would be in favor of keeping some of it but whether you decide banning outright or banning agility+ bp, please consider:

Qwilfish & Crobat are your hazers, Gyarados your phazer, Jumpluff your Encore user. This is just the main tools with which most teams can use non-offensive counter play vs Baton Pass.

The other thing is that all the Normal resists, despite there being an S Ranked Normal type known for using Curse, don't require/ cannot fit in a slot/ simply do not have access to Roar or Haze. So the playing field is completely different.

Agility pass cannot be encored if the Agility user pivots using BP.

FINAL VERDICT

I would be in favor of not allowing to pass more than 1 stat. I wouldn't necessarily ban agility + bp or bp as a whole.

Girafarig isn't nearly as formidable or predictable if it can only pass one stat. This would allow it to still play as it normally would while also being more manageable for those pokemon that check it but otherwise struggle facing whatever Girafarig passes to. For example Agility Giraf isn't safe to pass to Scyther anymore if facing Piloswine because it can't also pass Amnesia. Mr.mime will not be able to stack Barrier on agility because it would be passing a second stat (might be wrong about this last part.) Likewise we wouldn't have to worry about Agility Scyther ever continuing a chain.

 

[cherryb0ng]

Here is a list of pokes that are good against Baton Pass (it's not entirely comprehensive and mostly focuses on Agility and Full pass teams). I am open to suggestions for amendments. I don't have much time to edit this.


Reflect Set A+ > huge momentum gain. Makes it a lot harder for the opponent to get value out of their turns as it enables you to go to a setup sweeper or just start attacking. Good even vs Hp Bug Scyther lead for the first turn in which you set up reflect.
Seismic Toss Psychic Sleep Talk B+ > Speaking of which Seismic Toss lead means you can at least potentially weaken lead Girafarig.
Twave B- > extremely matchup reliant. You have to hope they essentially don't have miracle berry or go to Quagsire in a full pass team.
Light Screen D > This unfortunate, though a great set in general, does not give any value against most full pass teams.


Curse Rest Sleep Talk S > This poke doesn't give two shits about what the opponent is doing. At + 1 it already can't be OHKO'd by anything at + 6 and it can 2 HKO most of the pokemon on a baton pass team. The reliability comes from the sleep talk.
Other Curse sets A > With no sleep talk you have to be more careful but getting a setup can the game breaker.
Non-Curse sets B+ > Still a decent mon in my opinion as it will still be reliable in cleaning up against Baton Pass, it just can't switch in as freely.


Standard Sleep Talk set A+ > great vs Girafarig/Mime especially if it is in the lead position. It's definitely going to be dealing a lot of damage and anything coming in with Baton Pass will too.
Very rare Roar set: Roar Rest EQ Ice Beam B+ (people say it's bad but I'm inclined to disagree, it may not last long but it's alright)


Hp Bug set A This and the scyther set are the only matchups where I give HP Bug the edge over HP Ground. Pinsir might even be able to OHKO Giraf (I know it can OHKO Mime if it doesn't use Barrier). Still, since it is slower than Mr.Mime, you still have to watch out for Hypnosis.
HP Ground set A


HP Bug BP A+ >>>Same as above but HP Bug lead scyther usually leads with Miracle Berry. Really strong and possibly one of the only pokemon with a guaranteed momentum advantage t1 in addition to the type advantage against lead Psychics, this includes agilipass
HP Ground BP A > still good because the damage you can get is great.


Haze A > shuts down BP entirely but has to watch out for Psychics, Thunders and Earthquakes coming left and right.
Non haze C


Counter EQ Screech/Thief, Wing attack/Hp Rock A+ > If you don't have Qwilfish this could be a great last ditched effort to take out a +6 Quag or Politoed (though the latter has Lovely Kiss). Whatsmore, it also can use Screech and punish the chain of BP.


Roar +3 attacks A > of course being a fat mon with nice speed and damage output can go a long way even on it's own but Roar being there as well works wonders
Other sets B- > still ok if you need it to deal damage vs agility pass recipient Quagsire


Explosion set A > surprisingly still a good mon
Dbond B > having a reaction based move can sometimes be the downfall of the team


Surf Ice Beam Rest Talk B > this can deal nice damage and is quite tanky. Surf+Ice beam means it's going to deal a lot to Scyther, Giraf, or Quagsire no matter what. I recommend throwing this in the mix if the Belly Drum user has not yet used their Belly Drum. It's good at handling less typical BP recipients such as Granbull and Dodrio, who typically prefer to recieve a mere Attack stat boost.


Roar B (tentative)> slightly less susceptible to Thunder than Gyara and quite tanky but doesn't have a stab move and not much of a way to deal immediate damage.


Haze Wing attack Rest Sleep Talk A- > these two sets are good and this mon is typically found on stall. Crobat is simply a great way to shut down Scyther and outspeeds + 2 speed boosted Quagsire.
Haze Wing attack Toxic Protect A-


Toxic Defense curl Encore Rest/ Sleep Talk (I think) B > Shuckle is pretty reliable at slowing down Baton Pass users and potentially crippling BP recipients. It's a little bit underwhelming especially because it doesn't have much of a way to stop the opponent from disabling the counterplay. Slowest mon means that the Encore is more likely to work.


Your choice of Status + Grass Stab + filler : B+ > Its only real issue is that it lets scyther in quite easily but its matchup vs the BP users and Quagsire is good (as you might have guessed). It's also quite tanky and reliable.


Encore Stun Spore/Sleep Powder Leech seed/Reflect Synthesis A- > It has some problems vs a Girafarig that just used Agility because they start off slower and finish faster so there isn't much room for Encore. However, it's mere presence is enough to force the opponent to BP out sooner than they might have liked and gives you 1 turn to status as they pivot and the following turn to attempt it again.



Sleep Talk set C+ > This thing would seem good at first and is still worth mentioning (good bulk vs Politoed, can 3HKO Girafarig and Mr.mime) but the slow speed means a lot can go wrong and the opponent will more or less be prepared for what is being thrown in its direction. Though it may survive an OHKO from boosted toed, which is nice, passing Amnesia makes the matchup no longer worth while (and all the aforementioned KO thresholds go by the wayside)



If you think something else should be included let me know.

 

[Celebiii]

Also posting on F1shingRod 's behalf (with Lily's permission):
----------------------------------------------------------------------
pretty much just parroting what other people have said, but I agree that agilipass should be banned. best phazer in gyara has to respect the possibility of electric coverage on girafarig and so cannot reliably check it until it's revealed amnesia. attempting to haze w/ qwil is inconsistent because pass recipients hit it hard or can shut it down w/ sleep in toed's case. encore is a rare move and can realistically falter vs agilipass because +2 quag outspeeds jumpluff. quag is also bulky enough to live strong attacks from 50% so there isn't much preventing it from drumming safely. it's also immune to twave so it can run leftovers w/o being worse off against status. drypass and SDpass are reasonable to deal w/ because good, common pokemon like gyara can cover it reliably. ik I'm not the most skillful player of this tier, and I seldom build teams, but I hope my opinion is of some use to this discussion.

 

[Mystras]

I feel a bit awkward about adding to the echo chamber, which is why I didn't want to post to begin with, but my thoughts about BP are also the same what other have said previously against BP; too easy to punish traditional countermeasures like Gyara and Haze Qwil, the latter I try to not force on Qwil now since its overall an inferior option to Curse. Jumpluff is also the primary use of Encore which can handle BP well, but is not something I want to go out of my way to force just to not lose to it.

If I have to go out of my way to either, ignore and fish for no bpass or constrain team building for the sake of having at least a chance of not getting outright swept by then I don't think its healthy enough to be worth keeping. I'd be in favor of not passing speed and having the limitation of passing one stat for the sake of keeping Scyther as is, but given that there's a stigma around complex bans, I'm fine with just removing BP as a whole or just dry passing if complex bans aren't an option.

I also find this a bit interesting since BP is not actually as easy to pilot as people think, but neither is playing against BP especially in a scenario where you don't always know who the recipient will be in no preview formats. I get the argument of "misplays were made", but like others I'd retort that the margin for error for the person playing against BP is considerably smaller than it is for the person using it, which is a part of why I believe its unbalanced. There's bad matchups where you have to play better to make up for it, and then there's an entire archetype of teams where you can only prep so much and have to play near or actually prefect or risk instant death and still lose to something unexpected.

 

[Lily]

So having read every post on this thread a couple times now, I do agree with what seems to be the general sentiment - BP is "fine" in this tier, SpeedPass is the issue. So to keep this short, how do you guys feel about just banning SpeedPass?

I know people don't tend to like complex bans, but the rules are a little easier to bend for these oldgen tiers where balance is more important than consistency, and it's not like banning the giraffe will really solve it. So to combat it, banning the combination of Agility + Baton Pass (or in this case, banning Speed boosts + Baton Pass, other than silly shit like Ancient Power or Metronome or whatever lol) you can still do the following:

SD Pass (Scyther)
Meditate Pass (Mime)
Growth Pass (Flareon)
Amnesia Pass (Girafarig)

and whatever else, but Agility Pass would be gone. Effectively this'd be the only thing removed; I don't think removing Ancient Power, Metronome, or whatever other silly niche way to boost Speed is really necessary. This should fix the Bubba Problem™ while keeping the aspects of BP people seem to like, and wouldn't be entirely unprecedented - this has been done in other tiers before, and even other UU tiers (at least, I'm 90% sure this was a thing in BW UU at some point).

Does this work? If so I'll set up a survey and send it to the general GSC playerbase over the next couple days & we can hold a vote after UUSD or whatever. More feedback would be great though!

 

[Estarossa]

This has been the prevailing route that's been popular amongst most people discussing it lately for sure, and imo resolves the biggest issues I have with BP in this tier in general.

Speed pass into quagsire or bubba or even worse both is by far the biggest game-ending issue that puts the most teambuilding constraint and/or player advantage-disadvantage unbalancing into place to favour the BP user while punishing incorrect plays much more heavily on the other player's end.

This should definitely be the route taken for now, I had hoped there might be a little more support for a BP-wide ban than just me and mr.378 for most part, but this would have been the best intermediate route to take nonetheless. It targets the primary issue while still leaving SD Pass Scyther around for those who still actually like that set (lol couldn't be me) and leaves full pass structures still being "viable" with stuff like amnesia giraffe and barrier mine combos into sweepers while hopefully no longer being an issue due to the lack of game-ending agility passes in the mix and the direct nerf this causes them into things like haunter and jumpluff.

I would personally actually just call this what it is as an Agility Pass Ban, think its more targetted naming that is more obvious to what its implying, (+ the fact that there is no other legal way of passing speed anyway beyond like... metronome pass mime that's never happening ever anyway), no big deal either way though.

 

[Celebiii]

I'm happy to move forward on an Agility + Baton Pass vote. For me, the Speed increase being passed is what breaks the style, and we should start with a ban there. If Baton Pass proves to still be unhealthy afterwards, it can be looked at again down the line.

 

[Earthworm]

A ban on Agility + Baton Pass would eliminate the most powerful and limiting parts of Baton Pass for sure. I played some matches recently using the current sample teams and then some of my older teams:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2uu-1602915980
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2uu-1602923024
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2uu-1602928617
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2uu-1602940348
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2uu-1602944811
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2uu-1602948788

What I found was that the current sample teams, which are (probably?) more reflective of what people are using these days, tend to be more susceptible to Baton Pass than previously. Additionally, I think the composition of the Baton Pass teams has improved a bit. One point I specifically noticed was that people are favouring Curse > Haze on Qwilfish, which takes another tool out of the hands of non-BP teams and replaces it with basically a fodder Pokemon against that particular strategy (since it is utterly hopeless against both Quagsire and the Psychic-types). Additionally, there's less Slowbro (one of the few Pokemon that can sometimes withstand +6 Quagsire and do something in return) and Roar Piloswine and Nidoqueen have become even more unpopular.

However, I have to admit that Baton Pass can compete almost equally with most other team "archetypes". It only takes a small misstep to be at a major disadvantage against BP, and BP does require fairly specific answers, even if there are a decent number of them available (e.g. Roar Gyarados, Haze Qwilfish, Roar Piloswine, Encore Jumpluff / Mr. Mime, Curse Granbull, Lovely Kiss users, Counter Gligar, etc). Additionally, one instance of bad luck can seal the game immediately at times (e.g. a critical hit from a boosted sweeper against a Pokemon you're relying on to stop the sweep).

I think banning Agility + Baton Pass would not be an unreasonable decision, in that:
- it would limit a strategy which is, if not broken, then at least strong to a degree that is undesirable in my opinion. It is more powerful than in OU because the passers are harder to deal with (their attacks are quite strong and the Pokemon that can take them readily mostly struggle to stop the BP chain, and the passers can vary their movesets in ways that are problematic and tricky to deal with, which leads to high stakes guessing games), the recipients have fewer checks when fully boosted, and because Curse Snorlax is more ubiquitous and less easily dealt with than Curse Granbull.
- it can cause a greater degree of matchup-based advantage than is desirable. I don't really like including this point, because I am a strong proponent of the idea that allowing the metagame to figure out how to deal with strategies is a better choice than using tiering action interventions. I do think the UU metagame can adapt to increased Baton Pass use as well. Nevertheless, I am including it anyway, since there is undeniably some team building strain caused by its presence and threat level.
- it wouldn't eliminate the viability of any Pokemon. Girafarig will retain Amnesia + Baton Pass as a decent niche. Scyther is barely weakened at all by losing Agility + Baton Pass. Quagsire and Politoed are respectable standalone sweepers. This is not exactly a priority of tiering action (or is it..?), but as someone who enjoys the design of Girafarig and likes the idea of it being available for unique fringe strategies in the tier, it's nice nonetheless.

To me, the first point is by far the strongest. The others are both much weaker points, but they are points in the favour of the proposed intervention anyway. For the record, I would also not be opposed to taking no action. (edit: fixed this last sentence to clarify that I would also be okay with doing nothing)

 

[DAWNBUSTER]

If you are gonna take any action, Agility + Baton Pass is for sure the best play. I would rather have a complex ban than removing SDPass Scyther, which is not broken and healthy for the tier imo. As for the other strats mentioned, GrowthPass Flareon is close to unviable, Meditate Pass Mime is largely a worse Scyther, and Amnesia Pass Girafarig is just pretty whatever without Agility. While the last three are not unviable strategies, they are overall quite flawed and would become even worse with no Agility Girafarig / Scyther to help them. Another thing that would actually still be legal is Spider Web + Baton Pass Ariados (albeit without Agility), but this is also very much not broken, and most likely becomes borderline unviable, without the ability to also pass Agility…because its an Ariados. Its slow as balls, has an awful defensive typing, and no sleep or even paralysis moves. At the end of the day, im still not convinced that this shit is broken, but if the support is there than theres not much i can do.

-CEO of GSC Lower Tiers.

 

[cherryb0ng]

I may have come out a little bit too strong with my statement and would like to clarify my motivations, which, admittedly, were kind of vague.

I like Scyther Baton Pass personally. I think it contributes in an interesting way to the game, which is mainly why people accept it as a legitimate strategy in the UU metagame. It's a subjective point of view that we choose to accept Baton Pass, however, this is one case where I don't believe that subjective/arbitrary means wrong.

I don't particularly love Girafarig. I have only recently begun trying to use it myself to see the strengths and benefits. I felt like it wouldn't have been fair for me to simply say I was in favor of banning Agility + Baton Pass because I may choose to eliminate it for the wrong reasons, (this is why I wrote a second post with the different mons that have good or bad matchups vs speed and full baton pass teams). I don't want to say I am 100% in favor of banning Agility + Baton Pass, however, considering all the options carefully, I wouldn't find it entirely unreasonable either. It will drastically affect Girafarig's viability though, in my opinion and will certainly shape the meta to be something very different from what it is currently.

My proposition was to ban passing more than 1 stat, since I believe it to be a much tamer solution, while still limiting the very team structures that rely on Girafarig's Agility passing. If I know that Girafarig cannot pass Amnesia or cannot pass to a Mr.mime with Barrier, then that would allow me to adopt an aggressive approach towards Baton Pass (eg. using Piloswine, Seismic Toss or Twave Hypno, Granbull etc.) without cutting off the strategy altogether. I think what makes counterplay vs lots of Baton Pass teams unsustainable is the fact that it's very hard to break a chain without it coming at a significant cost.

 

[DAWNBUSTER]

i have come around to agility pass being broken in the last month. this shit is BROKEN and i think people (including me) finally realised that agility pass is actually quite stupid and honestly almost equally as good as regular teams and something you can spam and not be punished too hard for it. this tier is absolute SHIT rn as a result. please NUKE agility + baton pass after uu snake draft. thank YOU!

also ban scyther as a whole.

 

[BigFatMantis]

After recently discovering in 2022 that I enjoy this tier a bit, I just want to say that BP is fun and worthwhile to keep, and it doesn’t seem to break the game by itself. But Agilipassing into a frog to BD is a bit stupid and probably has no place in the game.

This thread has been up for a bit, and I’m not sure anyone would really oppose an agilipass vote. The games I’ve played with agilipass don’t even feel like real games it’s just some sort of silly carnival. For example look at my GSC UU Cup Semis game: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2uu-1656209934-jbtjyrupn7hpzz7ot604eneh77xv2oppw

It's a giraffe Agilipass mirror and we both get off Agilipass. My only counterplay is to hope for a Turn 2 wake. His only counterplay was to hit Kiss and hope for not a Turn 2 wake. That pretty much decided the whole game - there was nothing either of us could have done here and I don't think that's healthy gameplay and probably shouldn't be allowed. So I would be in favor of banning this so as to eliminate these types of silly games, but standard Baton Pass helps keep GSC interesting for a large chunk of players and it's not broken at all and has plenty of counterplay, so no need to really touch that. Most of the arguments to ban it involve people just not wanting to have to deal with it and I don't think that's quite enough. But Agilipass is a whole other story that stuff is just awful for the tier.

 

[Lily]

https://forms.gle/qzwSRvWDWC23ej9C8

This survey will be open for the next 7 days and will be used to determine what action will be taken in GSC UU going forward if any. Thank you to Siatam for setting it up and carrying my lazy butt.

Tagging some recent GSC UU tournament players who have played more than 1 game so they're aware this is happening:

tags

Estarossa gorgie HSA Torchic Inder Garay oak Celebiii bruno Mr.378 Mystras Leoxses vani Sage col49 Raichy lax Ika Ika Musume Lunala Beraldinho robjr

obvs didn't get everyone so please spread the word if you think anyone will have an opinion. thanks to all who respond

 

[Lily]

Following a majority opinion in the survey above, this is being voted on now.

 

[BeeOrSomething]

Hey, its been over a year since Agility Pass was banned, and I feel like we should discuss if Baton Pass as a whole should get banned. Baton Pass is less powerful, but strategies such as Meditate / Curse Pass Mr. Mime, Amnesia Pass Girafarig, and SD Pass Scyther are still obnoxious when they do show up and can sometimes just completely take over games out of nowhere. I don’t think these are healthy and I believe the tier would be better without them. For the record, I have seen people complain about BP in UU Discord / GSC Discord, so I am not the only person who feels this way. There is also a post from Mr.378 in this thread (see: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gsc-uu-baton-pass.3701513/post-9207281) on why BP should be axed as a whole.

Let me know your thoughts.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Hey, its been over a year since Agility Pass was banned, and I feel like we should discuss if Baton Pass as a whole should get banned. Baton Pass is less powerful, but strategies such as Meditate / Curse Pass Mr. Mime, Amnesia Pass Girafarig, and SD Pass Scyther are still obnoxious when they do show up and can sometimes just completely take over games out of nowhere. I don’t think these are healthy and I believe the tier would be better without them. For the record, I have seen people complain about BP in UU Discord / GSC Discord, so I am not the only person who feels this way. There is also a post from Mr.378 in this thread (see: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gsc-uu-baton-pass.3701513/post-9207281) on why BP should be axed as a whole.

Let me know your thoughts.

So I think baton pass is fine after Agility Pass was banned (that was the most obnoxious thing) but I understand others don't like it. I was actually considering doing a soft test in the upcoming UUFPL without Baton Pass allowed just to see how it goes (and maybe some other stuff idk). I believe the change in axing Agilipass has been very good for the tier and I think the tier is in a good spot. I wouldn't say any further action is needed at this time, primarily with the other additions to the tier still being worked on. I would say if there's going to be any action on Baton Pass, wait until after the Muk/Aero situation is resolved since the addition of one or two of those could potentially make it better/worse and we should see. As of right now, it does not seem banworthy to me at all, if not a little annoying sometimes.