Has anyone ever broken into your home and pointed a gun at you?

[blarajan]

I don't really have anything to say in this shitstorm, but goddamn I have not been as shocked or confused by something anyone has said in a long time. "forfeits their right to life being in my house" takes the fucking cake.

Jesus fucking christ I am still reeling. jagldsjgjghfdsgjg;lksajfga;lkjgalksj holy shit

 

[mattj]

If you guys like to look like retards, you're doing a pretty good job with this "LOLOLOL I JUST DON'T AHAHAHAHA".

The point was made that eliminating poverty would eliminate the incentive for crime. Here's a guy we all know who never was poor, but still felt the need to steal. There are thousands upon thousands of people like him. Eliminating poverty will not eliminate crime.

 

[Firestorm]

If you guys like to look like retards, you're doing a pretty good job with this "LOLOLOL I JUST DON'T AHAHAHAHA".

The point was made that eliminating poverty would eliminate the incentive for crime. Here's a guy we all know who never was poor, but still felt the need to steal. There are thousands upon thousands of people like him. Eliminating poverty will not eliminate crime.

It won't eliminate it but if you don't think reducing the poverty rate won't drastically reduce crime rate you're a complete fucking moron.

 

[elcheeso]

If you guys like to look like retards, you're doing a pretty good job with this "LOLOLOL I JUST DON'T AHAHAHAHA".

The point was made that eliminating poverty would eliminate the incentive for crime. Here's a guy we all know who never was poor, but still felt the need to steal. There are thousands upon thousands of people like him. Eliminating poverty will not eliminate crime.

Cookie and popemobile both specifically referred to burglaries and home invasion (which, as has been mentioned, are considerably different to fraud and white collar crime in general), and I think that if you take a little time to think about what was said instead of desperately trying to play a GOTCHA card, you'd understand it's not about completely eliminating crime, just considerably reducing it.

It would be unfair to put all of the blame for burglaries on the poor, though. Plenty of times (probably more often than not, though I'm too lazy to go look for the stats), theft out of the home is done by friends or family who are willingly allowed inside the house, it's not just the magical evil burglar who is simultaneously there to kill you, rape your kids/wife AND steal your hot pockets, just for the sake of it. Sort of like how you're statistically more likely to be a threat to your wife/kids than any burglar.

Edit: Though I suppose theft done by family/friends isn't particularly relevant since the discussion is largely about home invasion-esque theft? I'm guessing you wouldn't turn your gun on, IDK, your parents, if you caught them stealing from you.

 

[mattj]

It won't eliminate it but if you don't think reducing the poverty rate won't drastically reduce crime rate you're a complete fucking moron.

U.S. Poverty On Track To Rise To Highest Since 1960s
U.S. violent crime down for fifth straight year

i know man. what kind of moron would read stories like these and conclude that there is no concrete, direct link between poverty and crime. i mean, all the liberal sites say there's a direct, causable link, so it must be true. poor people are the problem. we should throw money at them till they become not poor and then we'll all be safe.

guns won't save you in the case of a home invasion. huge bags of money to throw at the poor people will save you. keep a few next to your nightstand just in case that meth head down the street breaks down your front door, or that registered sex offender sneaks into your daughter's bedroom.

 

[cookie]

Have you considered the possibility that in the case where poverty was falling, violent crime would fall even further? Of course, I don't have any data to back this hypothesis up, but it sure as hell isn't debunked just because robberies were down 4% even though poverty is going up. Hell, for all you know that drop is due to more effective policing or something else. If you're going to make a correlation, draw a causal link if you want it to be taken seriously.

EDIT: overall crime rate doesn't seem to be linked to poverty (google it if you don't believe me) which is what some people are asserting here, but I'm just talking about burglary/robbery/mugging/etc. Crime is such a broad term with a variety of motivations that you'd take ages describing a potential causal link between it and poverty. The motivation for robbery can be boiled down to two things: greed and necessity. Greed, as mattj pointed out, exists in the rich as well as the poor. I won't be flippant enough to claim people steal widescreen TVs because they "need" them, but they might sell them to make ends meet. And their original predisposition towards theft is the result of a shitty upbringing most of the time. Poverty doesn't help with that.

 

[mattj]

sorry boss, but you guys are the ones who made the correlation without the causal link

my point is that there is no causal link

 

[cookie]

No, but I just described how a causal link might be formed (in the edit).

 

[elcheeso]

You'd be hard pressed to find a direct causal link for any societal problem, because humans are complex and have a whole host of motivations and a whole number of tiny events and shit like genetics play a part in making a person tick. That being said, the statisticians (you know, the people who actually have qualifications to make judgements about this sort of shit) certainly seem to think there's some level of linkage between the two. Also, for what it's worth... I believe burglary isn't actually included under violent crime, just property crime (someone like DM might be able to say otherwise, I'm no expert). I believe it only counts as violent crime if there's some sort of confrontation/threat involved.

Probably best to default to what the FBI has to say on the matter.

Make valid assessments of crime

It is incumbent upon all data users to become as well educated as possible about how to understand and quantify the nature and extent of crime in the United States and in any of the more than 18,000 jurisdictions represented by law enforcement contributors to the Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program. Valid assessments are possible only with careful study and analysis of the various unique conditions affecting each local law enforcement jurisdiction.

Historically, the causes and origins of crime have been the subjects of investigation by many disciplines. Some factors that are known to affect the volume and type of crime occurring from place to place are:

• Population density and degree of urbanization.
• Variations in composition of the population, particularly youth concentration.
• Stability of the population with respect to residents’ mobility, commuting patterns, and transient factors.
• Modes of transportation and highway system.
• Economic conditions, including median income, poverty level, and job availability.
• Cultural factors and educational, recreational, and religious characteristics.
• Family conditions with respect to divorce and family cohesiveness.
• Climate.
• Effective strength of law enforcement agencies.
• Administrative and investigative emphases of law enforcement.
• Policies of other components of the criminal justice system (i.e., prosecutorial, judicial, correctional, and probational).
• Citizens’ attitudes toward crime.
• Crime reporting practices of the citizenry.

Edit: Just gunna put a couple of links here since I think they're interesting reads, particularly the "variables affecting crime" one, even though it's originally referring to the media and random idiots like all of us screwing around with hate crime statistics.
Caution against ranking: Variables affecting crime
Areas with concentrated poverty: 2006-2010

 

[mattj]

Since greed, and perversion, general craziness, and many other factors that lead to violent home invasions are independent of poverty, why would decreasing poverty negate anyone's need, or perceived need, of a firearm, as protection, in the case of a home invasion?

 

[Firestorm]

U.S. Poverty On Track To Rise To Highest Since 1960s
U.S. violent crime down for fifth straight year

i know man. what kind of moron would read stories like these and conclude that there is no concrete, direct link between poverty and crime. i mean, all the liberal sites say there's a direct, causable link, so it must be true. poor people are the problem. we should throw money at them till they become not poor and then we'll all be safe.

guns won't save you in the case of a home invasion. huge bags of money to throw at the poor people will save you. keep a few next to your nightstand just in case that meth head down the street breaks down your front door, or that registered sex offender sneaks into your daughter's bedroom.

So you're going to go with being a fucking moron then. There is no argument that one factor causes crime. In fact, if we look at your article linked:

criminologists point to a variety of factors for the continuing decline in overall violence. They cite a more settled crack cocaine market, an increase in incarcerations, an aging population, data-driven policing, and changes in technology that include a big increase in surveillance cameras.

Now if you'd like to see an actual paper on it: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-9125.1976.tb00027.x/abstract

Abstract

In an effort to evaluate the situational determinants of crime, principal components analysis was used to reduce 59 demographic and socioeconomic characteristics of 840 American cities to six independent factors: affluence, stage in life cycle, economic specialization, expenditures policy, poverty, and urbanization. When regressed upon crime rates two of these six factors, urbanization and poverty, were found to be the more important criminogenic forces. The exception to this generalization was the South, where stage in life cycle was more important than poverty in explaining crime. One reason for this exception may be that the South, though having a lower standard of living than other regions of the country, does not have the “culture of poverty” usually associated with lower income. Contrary to the assumption upon which most ecology of crime studies are based, larger cities (over 100,000 in population) are not representative of all cities. Greater association between socioeconomic variables and crime was found in larger than in smaller cities.

 

[mattj]

So you're going to go with being a fucking moron then.

I'm a moron for paying attention to the news and concluding that poverty is not concretely linked to crime (something your paper quite plainly says in the abstract)?

Bro. You need to chill out.

 

[Stratos]

"When regressed upon crime rates two of these six factors, urbanization and poverty, were found to be the more important criminogenic forces."

this means in english POVERTY IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTORS IN WHETHER OR NOT YOU COMMIT A CRIME

guys i say we give it up mattj is fucking retarded

 

[az]

yo can i get a mod in here

 

[shade]

~ closed ~