SD Ono 2HKOs Skarmory...
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Haxorus
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yeah but this is about Choice Band/Scarf Ono.
non choiced Onos should always have these moves:
Outrage
Earthquake
SD/DD
Taunt
Choiced vairiants should look like this:
Outrage
Dragon Claw
Earthquake
Guillotine
Simply because all of his other moves are crappy 75 BP moves and he receives perfect coverage with just Outrage and EQ bar Skarmory and Shedinja and a possible surprising OHKO on Skarmory is just the best option for him as all other moves are useless.
The post above mine stated that Ono's biggest problem is Skarmory; I was saying that it isn't in SD Ono's case. As for moves that Ono can use, Guillotine is a terrible idea. Brick Break, Rock Slide, and Double Chop don't work? At least they actually give it some coverage or let it break subs. Besides the fact that Skarmory has sturdy, it's setup bait for anything else, because it won't ever hit.
EDIT: I'm an idiot. Sorry.
EDIT: I'm an idiot. Sorry.
None of these moves will give him coverage, sure you would hit some things for SE Damage but its still less than outrage would damage them and Mold Breaker means fuck Sturdy, because it won't work.
And it will hit 30% of the time for an OHKO regardless what it hits (except ghost types) and that isn't bad especially if your opponent don't got a Ghost type he is in a very bad situation and potentually has to lose a pokemon wich puts your opponent under psychological pressure and is much more worth than Rock Slide, Brick Break and (lol) Double Chop.
OHKO clause isn't 100% sure to stay so its definitally something that should be disscussed.
OHKO clause isn't 100% sure to stay, but as of now, OHKO moves are banned, so this shouldn't be discussed. And as for the whole "Outrage outdamages these other moves even when they're SE" thing, do you really want to be locked into Outrage every time you attack, especially on a Choice Scarf set? Also, Double Chop isn't stupid; it has the same BP as Dragon Claw, but breaks through subs and has the potential to do excellent damage with Ono's great attack stat.
Finally, do you really want to get Ono locked into a 30% accuracy move? That just screams setup bait to me, and considering Ono's terrible defenses, could easily get it killed.
Finally, do you really want to get Ono locked into a 30% accuracy move? That just screams setup bait to me, and considering Ono's terrible defenses, could easily get it killed.
OHKO clause was VOTED TO REMAIN. Seriously, CHECK POLICY REVIEW EVERY NOW AND THEN BEFORE YOU START RUNNING YOUR MOUTH.
Christ.
Also, just to let you know, Tesshiido@Evolution Stone is a hardcore counter to any choiced Ononokusu. It scoffs at Outrage, and Brick Break still doesn't 2HKO. Leech Seed + Protect + Steel Thorns damage will wear him down quickly, ESPECIALLY if you're locked into Outrage, because I simply won't Protect and set up 1-2 layers of Spikes on you for free.
Ononokusu is a late-game sweeper through and through. Stop trying to run him as a revenge killer. I've even seen people try to use him as a lead. Ftr, he is a very, very shitty lead.
Christ.
Also, just to let you know, Tesshiido@Evolution Stone is a hardcore counter to any choiced Ononokusu. It scoffs at Outrage, and Brick Break still doesn't 2HKO. Leech Seed + Protect + Steel Thorns damage will wear him down quickly, ESPECIALLY if you're locked into Outrage, because I simply won't Protect and set up 1-2 layers of Spikes on you for free.
Ononokusu is a late-game sweeper through and through. Stop trying to run him as a revenge killer. I've even seen people try to use him as a lead. Ftr, he is a very, very shitty lead.
I agree with the above post, but personally believe that SD Ono, when coupled with Magnezone or the nonexistent Shadow Tag Shanderaa, is stall's worst nightmare and is one of its best sets.
Magnezone is one of the best support Pokemon ever for Ono, or if you're feeling ballsy, Evo Stone Magneton who has much better defenses and only a tiny bit less SpA, however keep in mind you lose to Doryuuzu without access to Balloon. Seeing as the only role of Magnezone/ton should be coming in and trapping their Steel and killing it, and Ono's biggest problem is Steel Types, they have surprisingly good synergy. It also helps that Ono's two weaknesses are both resisted by Magnezone.
A slight thing to keep in mind: HP Fire does NOT OHKO 0/252 Relaxed Tesshiido (Does about 70%-80%) or most spreads on Nattorei, though outside of Level Ground (which I'm not entirely sure they even get) they can't do anything back at all.
almost every defensive Steel runs Shed Shell to be able to escape from magnezone/magneton and on the Dream World ladder Shandera. So magneton/magnezone often prove to be worthless, sure you sometimes run into steels with lefties but more than often it won't be the case.
To the guillotine thing its allowed on PO atm and as long as Somgon doesn`t have an own server/simulator for gen 5 its not important what policy review says (and its imo completly stupid banning something without even testing it at least for a while).
And an Ononokusu locked into an OHKO move is only set up bait for ghosts, everything else needs to fear an imidiate OHKO.
Double Chop can hit through subs sure but 90% accuary isn't worth the chance of hitting through subs and with Onos defenses you won't like to take a hit (it would be much more viable if Ono would strike 3 times but with one 40 base power attack he won't KO most substitute users).
Brick Break got the utility to destroy screens wich is cool and you can hit baloon dory (well only on the switch but thats better than nothing), but will be useless most of the time as Screens aren't that common and the dory thing is the biggest selling Point.
Rock Slide is stupid cause there is nothing it would hit SE that Outrage/Dragon Claw would hit nve flinch rate is cool but 90 acc isn't.
Night Slash/Shadow Claw is lol.
IMO Guillotine is cool because it can be a last ditch attack that can turn a match if you feel ballsy.
To the guillotine thing its allowed on PO atm and as long as Somgon doesn`t have an own server/simulator for gen 5 its not important what policy review says (and its imo completly stupid banning something without even testing it at least for a while).
And an Ononokusu locked into an OHKO move is only set up bait for ghosts, everything else needs to fear an imidiate OHKO.
Double Chop can hit through subs sure but 90% accuary isn't worth the chance of hitting through subs and with Onos defenses you won't like to take a hit (it would be much more viable if Ono would strike 3 times but with one 40 base power attack he won't KO most substitute users).
Brick Break got the utility to destroy screens wich is cool and you can hit baloon dory (well only on the switch but thats better than nothing), but will be useless most of the time as Screens aren't that common and the dory thing is the biggest selling Point.
Rock Slide is stupid cause there is nothing it would hit SE that Outrage/Dragon Claw would hit nve flinch rate is cool but 90 acc isn't.
Night Slash/Shadow Claw is lol.
IMO Guillotine is cool because it can be a last ditch attack that can turn a match if you feel ballsy.
Shadow Tag Shandera is as of yet unreleased, so it is irrelevant. However, a Steel is often switching into Ono, which means you will know if it is running Leftovers or Shed Shell. Given, Nattorei may be running Rugged Helmet, but odds are it will have one of the two.
We are not discussing the PO metagame on Smogon, we are discussing the Smogon metagame. If you want to discuss the PO metagame, they have their own forums, so go there.
Yet you don't seem to have a problem with 30% accuracy. You're not aiming for OHKOs with Double Chop, you're aiming to prevent them from substalling you.
Dory is something that can't be beat by Magnezone or even the unreleased Shadow Tag Shandera. Baiting in Dory and finishing it off, when it is one of the most potent mid-to-late-game sweepers in the game is easily worth it.
Uhhhh... Again, you seem to have no problem with 30% accuracy, yet 90% is awful. Admittedly, there is nothing you are hitting with Rock Slide that EQ/Dragon Claw/Outrage/Brick Break wouldn't.
I will agree with you on this.
However, you seem to be missing three important points:
1) By your own logic regarding Steels, Shandera just got to +6 SpA and wrecked your entire team.
2) There are far better options.
3) OHKO moves are banned. It doesn't matter what PO is using, their metagame is entirely irrelevant to the Smogon one.
The topic creator never specified a metagame which this discussion must be relative to. This is simply a thread in which people may discuss anything about the Pokémon Ononokusu in general.
Also, the only point I am making is that because an Ononokusu holding Choice Band or Choice Scarf must know Guillotine in order to beat Skarmory, this move simply becomes a viable option on this Pokémon, but not a necessary one.
But it can take out just about everything else in one hit, so Skarmory would still be (or at least close to) its greatest obstacle.
Also, the only point I am making is that because an Ononokusu holding Choice Band or Choice Scarf must know Guillotine in order to beat Skarmory, this move simply becomes a viable option on this Pokémon, but not a necessary one.
But it can take out just about everything else in one hit, so Skarmory would still be (or at least close to) its greatest obstacle.
Lay off on that technical bullshit, bro. There are plenty of topics in this forum that discuss the PO metagame since, quite frankly, it's the only one that really exists right now. Smogon doesn't have a Gen 5 client, and furthermore, there are still Gen 5 policies being decided on.
If you want to discuss the metagame in accordance with Smogon policies, there's still Wifi tier, which is still very much PO, and DS battles, which not everyone has access to. But hey, everyone has access to PO. Expect to see more PO-related discussion on the forums.
Remember, PO is a client, and Smogon is a competitive Pokemon community. They don't have to be mutually exclusive in general discussion of competitive Pokemon. IIRC, Shoddy was the same way not too long ago before Colin decided to join forces with Smogon.
Since the chance of defeating Skarmory is pretty much the only reason why Guillotine is even being considered, why exactly would one want to use this move on an Ononokusu without Mold Breaker?
Oh yeah I forgot about that. I suppose it could work, provided OHKO moves aren't still banned.
Just have to say that switching in Nattorei @Rugged Helmet on Outrage makes for a pretty decent counter. I've found that even at +2 Attack, Ono can't 2HKO my Natt. If I Leech Seed it as well, can last even longer against unboosted Ono, and then set down spikes too. Just saying.
Yes, but Mold Breaker nullifies the ability as a whole anyways, so this isn't really relevant when discussing Ono. :p
PO does use the Smogon metagame, he was just misinformed because it wasn't updated at the time he played, no need to get sand in your vagina.
Mostly I was irritated at his insistence of Guillotine, which is a really, really shitty option. It's like using Solarbeam competitively, which is akin to CB Caterpie's Tackle against Giratina. Sure, this tackle does not have a 3/10 chance of OHKO, but switching to something else to beat the Skarmory is an option. Your entire team is not just Ononokusu.
I can see an Endure/Reversal set being both effective, capable of beating Skarmory, and getting you a nice Salac boost. Switch in on something you threaten, Swords Dance on the switch, and if they switched to a sweeper, Endure, if they switched to their Steel, bring in Zone. If they switch out, you now know that they don't have lefties, which should make it easier to whittle them down. In fact, perhaps Endure could be dropped with the right defensive investment, though that's starting to get gimmicky.
By that logic, using a Charizard with Fire Blast, Fire Spin, Flamethrower and Ember would be an option, since it is possible to switch to something else when the opponent sends out a Pokémon which resists Fire-type moves, and your entire team is not just Charizard. Also, the problem here is not just how to deal with Skarmory when it is out in battle against your Ononokusu. Sure, switching can be a temporary solution to the fact that your Ononokusu cannot touch Skarmory, but in the long run, it doesn't solve anything at all, as the real problem is that the opponent can safely and repeatedly switch in their Skarmory whenever your Ononokusu is sent out, knowing that Ononokusu can do pretty much nothing against it. Therefore, Ononokusu itself would need to somehow be able to prevent Skarmory from being able to safely switch into it 100% of the time and wall it completely. Guess how that can be done?
In an environment in which Sandstorm is incredibly common, Endure + Reversal is an extremely bad strategy... one much worse than what you're making Guillotine out to be.