Helping a divided board (DT/OHKO/Rules related)

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Cheater Hater

Hello. As a lurker of this board starting in the 3rd generation, I've come to understand most of the competitive Pokemon scene, or at least enough so that I got 2nd at a JAA (MN) last year. But now, with D/P and Wi-Fi battling upon us, along with accessible battling built in, I have to ask: What is competitive?

On another forum I frequent, a seemingly innocent topic was posted detailing "Standard Rules and Clauses." It was a near carbon-copy of the "Smogon" Rules (including things like no DT/OHKO's), and the topic exploded. It was a large debate with three main opinions:
A: Smogon rules are good
B: Smogon rules are bad, Nintendo/BT/PBR rules are good
C: Defining rules for Wi-Fi is bad

In an effort to try to calm the people, as well as satisfy the many calls for "statistics and information supporting 'Smogon' Rules", I searched the archives for info, but only found the "Anti-ban" side of the story, no "official word" that was recent, and a consensus to wait until Competitor came out to test things. I have finally decided to go to the source of the info, and I have three main questions:

1. What is the official word on the bans? (and I want something other than "massive luck reduces strategy")
2. Now that Shoddy Battle is out, has there been any testing of evasion/OHKO's? (and if not, here's your reminder)
3. What are your thoughts on "Smogon" Rules in Wi-Fi in general?

Thank you in advance for answering my questions.
 
There is no official word on anything. Smogon's ruleset is based on previous generation standard rules and what the core community feels is overpowered. Just because Smogon says something doesn't mean it has to be followed by the whole internet and it's only in place for the benefit of our users here. It is mainly there as a guideline for people running tournaments and as something two people can use to make setting rules for their battles easier. It's much simpler to say "Standard Smogon Rules" rather than list off every single ban/clause. With the release of competitor the standard rules will be used as the mainstream on our server but it won't necessarily be required just as it was on NB. Probably only species and sleep clause will actually be locked in along with some sort of battle timeout function. Assuming there's other servers they can do as they wish just like it was with NB.

As far as I know there hasn't been a mainstream effort to allow and/or ban OHKOs or DT on shoddy battle or anything else for that matter. I tend to only battle people I know there so I've always played with Sleep/Species implied and kind of shrugged everything else off if I have run into it. I personally don't use DT or OHKOs but that's just my preference. They always tend to fail for me anyway.

You can't really enforce WiFi for the DS at all but considering you need friend code to battle you should be able to iron out what the rules are for each specific battle. I don't think any one set of rules will be implied when you battle on WiFi.
 
On PBR, I've seen several instances of "forced-enforcement" of certain clauses. On multiple occasions when species clause or sleep clause was violated, I've seen people simply shut off their WII. Since then, I've never used multi-sleep over Wifi since then, as well as (usually) logging off if they violate sleep/species clause. I assumed that people on PBR had few scruples and cared little of rules: I was pleasantly proved wrong when a hypnosis crobat didn't make the obvious best move (hypnosis...) because one of my pogeys was already asleep.
 
Carl said:
Probably only species and sleep clause will actually be locked in along with some sort of battle timeout function.
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I have no problem with sleep clause and battle timeout by default, but forcing species clause? What about our mono-cleffa metronome teams?

I'd rather it was just a red warning or an optional clause, myself.
 
Don't take anything I say about Competitor as law. I'm not in charge of the project nor will I be hosting a server for Smogon. Those were only speculations.
 
Thank you Carl. It's good to have some type of recent word about this. I'll bring to the other forum and hopefully things will calm down over there. I don't use DT/OHKO's myself, but when the main competitive site has different rules than Nintendo themselves and both are accepted strongly in their own communities, it causes much debate.

Ikaeru, I thought sleep/freeze clause was auto-enforced on PBR?

To anyone: I can see why DT/OHKO's were banned in the 1st/2nd generations, but were there any specific reasons it was banned in the third generation (other than luck/no one thought to change it)? All I got from those topics was that evasion with Baton Pass was broken, but nothing more than that.
 
Honestly, I think it forced people to have Hazers, which many didn't like.

Oh, and on a side note speaking for Nintendo. They came up with some pokemon's abilities to ignore stat changes, not be able to fall asleep, and be resitant to OHKO moves. My point is, Nintendo implemented these pokes to be useable in a world where any move goes, and with the rules we ourselves as pokemon players have implemented, these pokemon have suffered in somewhat being of less use as a competitor value, even if it's just a (now) pointless ability because of the rules we sometimes use. (For instance, Forretress's Strudy no OHK0 ability.) We (as a whole), essentially, have chosen to make certain pokemon weaker.
 
To anyone: I can see why DT/OHKO's were banned in the 1st/2nd generations, but were there any specific reasons it was banned in the third generation (other than luck/no one thought to change it)? All I got from those topics was that evasion with Baton Pass was broken, but nothing more than that.
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Check the recent research on Evasion/Hit and also the multiple past debates about Double Team.

General consensus was its gotten even stronger than ever before and theres even less ways to counter it now since some things hit so ridiculously hard now.

Problem with Double Team has always been clear, its because everything learns it. The weak become useful and the strong become invincible. Haze is extremely limited to a certain group, Roar/Whirlwind can miss, Foresight/Miracle Eye are even more restricted and only Machamp gets No Guard.

The reason Double Team was tolerated in GSC probably was because of a lower pool of Pokemon. Everything was alot sturdier, these were the days when poison/water could survive a EQ or T-Bolt and traits hadn't appeared yet. But even then people without Haze would remember how they literally were defenseless against DT a stigma which has remained.

OHKO's thats more out of habit, to be honest they can be pretty easily avoided nowadays especially seeing two of the Sturdy pokemon are super common (Skarmory/Forretress). But you can also understand the frustration of a move which basically gives you an automatic win 30% of the time, most are going to feel cheated. On a good day that equates to a clean sweep, either way this factor is definitely up in the air.

As for sleep clause, two real reason. One being that its actually been an official Stadium rule in both the 3v3 and 6v6 format since the games started, probably the oldest rule.

Second is being Breloom, BP it some speed it equates to a full 6-0 sweep without the sleep clause. Its far far too strong along with the ability to subseed to stall it and the only effective counter Hypno is 2HKO'd now by Seed Bomb or brilliant Subseed fodder being slow and high HP.

Actually I don't think many mind the official Nintendo PBR/BT format since it does exclude the normally definied 00bers and includes Sleep clause except for one thing being Double Team.

The only true problem is Double Team which is funny, not really an issue in the 3v3 battle Stadium format OR the Double battle format. But its a massive problem in full 6v6 games which is what almost everyone considers the prime battling format.

In the end Smogon rules were more an expansion of existing rules simply refined and customized to create what a community believed would create the fastest and most balanced game and has no real official bearing.
 
Forsety said:
Check the recent research on Evasion/Hit and also the multiple past debates about Double Team.

General consensus was its gotten even stronger than ever before and theres even less ways to counter it now since some things hit so ridiculously hard now.
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I don't know where this research was undertaken. DT is actually more counterable now, with more moves that are not affected by accuracy (Aura Sphere for example) and more moves that reset the foe's evasion (Miracle Eye for example). In the multiple past debates about DT, we actually said that DT might not be that broken of a move, and that actually, DT + Baton Pass is what should be illegal.

Also, I really don't know how the strong Pokemon become 'invincible' with DT. Remember that if you use DT, you have only 3 slots left to attack now, and if the opponent hits through your DT(s), you have effectively wasted those turns using DT for nothing.
 
Even if DT were allowed, I for one *and probably a fair amount of ther people* won't be rushing to put DT on every Pokemon on their team. I think there may be an occasional user, but it won't turn into an epidemic of sorts.
 
Monkeydude85 said:
Honestly, I think it forced people to have Hazers, which many didn't like.

Oh, and on a side note speaking for Nintendo. They came up with some pokemon's abilities to ignore stat changes, not be able to fall asleep, and be resitant to OHKO moves. My point is, Nintendo implemented these pokes to be useable in a world where any move goes, and with the rules we ourselves as pokemon players have implemented, these pokemon have suffered in somewhat being of less use as a competitor value, even if it's just a (now) pointless ability because of the rules we sometimes use. (For instance, Forretress's Strudy no OHK0 ability.) We (as a whole), essentially, have chosen to make certain pokemon weaker.
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This post irked me for a number of reasons but mainly I'm going to focus on your argument using OHKOs since you mentioned it. Many of the pokemon that learn OHKOs actually learn super effective attacks that hit a majority of the Sturdy pokemon anyway.

The following pokemon have at least the Sturdy ability according to marriland:
Golem
Magneton
Sudowoodo
Forretress
Steelix
Shuckle
Skarmory
Donphan
Aggron
Bastiodon
Magnezone
Probopass

That's a whopping 12 pokemon you're claiming get better if OHKOs aren't banned. Really all I have to say is "Lapras" and your argument is shot but I'll be more thorough. First I say we remove Magneton and Magnezone from this list since quite honestly you're more likely to want to rid yourself of Skarm and go with Magnet Pull (but you can factor them anyway it won't make much difference). This drops the number to ten. 70% of those 10 pokemon are immune to Fissure but are also weak to Ground which almost all Fissure users can also learn! Of the pokemon that learn Sheer Cold more than half can learn Surf which is super effective against a majority of that above list and will still dent anything else on there because if you notice none of those pokemon are special defense tanks. Horn Drill users also have either Surf or Earthquake at their disposal. Oddly enough so do all Guillotine users. Turns out there's only a select few pokemon that can use Fire attacks and OHKOs so it looks like your best bet for a Sturdy pokemon are Skarmory who hey is already overused anyway or Forretress who isn't strong enough offensively to effectively threaten anything and be an official counter. And isn't it weird that another pokemon on that list up there (Magnezone/Magneton) can be used to simply trap and remove Skarmory and/or Forretress from play.

My main point with this is that abilities are great and can be useful but in the end it's stats/typing/movepool that are more important and define a pokemon's use. If OHKO pokemon are allowed you won't see a rise in a majority of usage in those pokemon up there because they're either already common enough, doing something else using a second ability or they are completely outclassed by another pokemon of same typing but better stats. Considering that OHKO users have 3 other moves for options, Sturdy pokemon can't even effectively counter them properly since any smart player will know which pokemon have the trait and use moves to beat them. You're better off countering OHKOs based on their typing or by using Substitute and hoping luck is in your favor.
 
Came across someone who was using a Sheer Cold Lapras in tandem with Gravity. Was a pretty interesting strategy, and would have worked well if I didn't keep Lapras out with the threat of like 5 super effective moves. Baton Pass a Mean Look with Gravity up and you're pretty much guaranteed a KO though, and that's pretty scary.

The bigger problem in my opinion is Double Team. Garchomp with Sand Veil and a couple of Double Teams (say baton passed from Gliscor, who also has Sand Veil and can also pass Swords Dance)? Crossing your fingers is all you can do, and no one wants to be reliant on luck, considering we abuse crits, fully paralysed and freeze as "hax". It doesn't need to be on all the Pokemon on a team to mess shit up.

Edit: As an aside, its true that most Pokes aren't used for their abilities. I use Hippowdon because he's an awesome wall, Sandstream be damned, and Lucario doesn't benefit from his traits because he's unlikely to be going second due to his sweeper orientation.
 
I don't know where this research was undertaken.
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I assumed he was asking for the dodge/hit rates.

X-Act said:
DT is actually more counterable now, with more moves that are not affected by accuracy (Aura Sphere for example) and more moves that reset the foe's evasion (Miracle Eye for example).
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Everyone (non-00ber) who learns at least one of those moves can be counted on two hands. Including 00ber's its a total of 11.

Foresight on the other hand is more readily available, question being how willing are you to use it. We all know about the other always hit moves and their rather low power.

X-Act said:
Also, I really don't know how the strong Pokemon become 'invincible' with DT. Remember that if you use DT, you have only 3 slots left to attack now, and if the opponent hits through your DT(s), you have effectively wasted those turns using DT for nothing.
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True but theres also the matter of what you mentioned BP'ing DT's. Not terribly hard, throw in the massively improved Taunt and it becomes easier and neither does it restrict the receiver's moves.

Although I'm sure many people would eventually adapt to it since thats what we did back in GSC.
 
Back in 386 pretty much everyone had a Bellyzard counter, but Charizard is a pokemon and Belly Drumming is a setup that takes a bit of prediction to pull off.

Double Team on the other hand less so, just use it on the switch or on anything with a defense stat and you are in the money. For a strategy thats so effective you need a counter, and do we really want a metagame where every team is forced to have a DT counter?

Also ignoring the (un)fairness of DT, the second question is about fun. In my experience DT just makes the game not fun to play, and last I checked the standard rules were just as much about making the game enjoyable as it was about making it balance, and I tend to think those two notions are one and the same. DT is not fun, that alone should be enough of a reason to ban it.
 
First of all, I was never questioning sleep clause, as I easily understand reasoning for that.

Second, Double Team would end up possibly forcing a specific and otherwise useless counter? Though it was mentioned many times in the other topics, I never saw any counter the same reasoning applied to Rapid Spin in regards to Spikes, and Double Team has more than just Foresight/Odor Sleuth.

Third, OHKO's. While most of your points seem valid, why remove Magneton/Magnezone? If they are the best OHKO counter (with the possibility of Magnet Rise, they seem to be), couldn't you:
A: Use both, one with each ability
B: Forget Magnet Pull (aren't most Skarmory holding Beautiful Skin anyway?)

Finally, if you want competitive Pokemon, you often:
A: Have to put something other than fun first (competitive)
B: Accept luck (Pokemon)
I'd go farther on those issues, but I don't want dissolve this good, thoughtful topic into the kind of chaos that was in the other topic.
 
The thing is that Spikes are not reliant on luck. It's your own damn fault if you can't get the Pokemon spiking out of the way fast enough, and so you have to suffer the damage incurred every time you switched in. Also, as flying/levitating Pokemon are immune to it, it sort of decreases the impact. Stealth Rock has kinda taken away from this, but the main idea is there; it is consistent damage and not reliant on luck, plus you have to switch for it to become a problem.

Double Team is effective immediately and is also more varied than Stealth Rock. You can Rapid Spin on any Pokemon that's not a ghost, but what about double team on a special sweeper? Fast Physical sweeper? Tankish physical sweeper? These would require different Hazers (Milotic, Crobat and Weezing are the examples that come to mind). Roar and Whirlwind missing make phazing unreliable, so your options are limited.
 
Cheater Hater said:
Third, OHKO's. While most of your points seem valid, why remove Magneton/Magnezone? If they are the best OHKO counter (with the possibility of Magnet Rise, they seem to be), couldn't you:
A: Use both, one with each ability
B: Forget Magnet Pull (aren't most Skarmory holding Beautiful Skin anyway?)
Click to expand...

The point is that there isn't any effective counter to OHKO moves, Magneton/Magnezone being no exception. You can't switch in (hence countering) then Magnet Rise and some how "defeat" OHKO moves. As stated, a majority of OHKO users pack Earthquake, which will totally ruin Magneton/Zone. So you're stuck with either trying to switch in on a OHKO move, or get predicted and slammed with an EQ as you switch.

Assuming you get in without dying instantly, now what? If the user packs EQ, now you need to outspeed them and Magnet Rise first. This is where the other person either outspeeds and OHKOs you with an EQ, or switches to an effective Magneton/Zone counter that can handle them even after Magnet Rising, meaning you've done really nothing to "counter".


Cheater Hater said:
Finally, if you want competitive Pokemon, you often:
A: Have to put something other than fun first (competitive)
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Side Note:
I hate this attitude. Why does everyone believe that competitive players sacrifice fun to be competitive? WE ENJOY PLAYING THE GAME COMPETITIVELY, THATS WHY WE DO IT. This attitude gets so damn old, but I might be jaded from playing fighting games competitively for awhile and hearing all those damn kids at arcades complain...

Cheater Hater said:
B: Accept luck (Pokemon)
I'd go farther on those issues, but I don't want dissolve this good, thoughtful topic into the kind of chaos that was in the other topic.
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Luck does indeed factor into Pokemon, more so then most competitive games. So why do we need to go farther into introducing luck into the game? This is the main argument (in my eyes) supporting the OHKO/DT clauses.

We already curse about "hax", why make it worse?
 
Cheater Hater said:
Third, OHKO's. While most of your points seem valid, why remove Magneton/Magnezone? If they are the best OHKO counter (with the possibility of Magnet Rise, they seem to be), couldn't you:
A: Use both, one with each ability
B: Forget Magnet Pull (aren't most Skarmory holding Beautiful Skin anyway?)
Click to expand...

Using both leaves you with two Electric pokemon that occupy the exact same niche type wise and offer no variety in moves (also screams for Electivire to pound you). This limits other type and move options you could have. By your logic, if Skarmory is always holding Shed Shell it would also be foolish to have both since one would be completely useless. To address B more specifically, using Magnezone or Magneton without Magnet Pull is all fine and good but Skarmory (and to a lesser extent Metagross/Forretress/etc) is such a good pokemon that why wouldn't you want the ability to trap and kill it on the spot if for some reason it had Leftovers. Even if it does have Shed Shell, your team could still have Trick, Knock Off, Covet, Thief, etc. Unlikely scenarios I know but I had to throw them out there. In general to me it seems that a Magneton/Magnezone not using Magnet Pull would be like a Dugtrio using Sand Veil only not as extreme.

EDIT: lol amen Lord Alchemy!
 
Lord Alchemy said:
The point is that there isn't any effective counter to OHKO moves, Magneton/Magnezone being no exception. You can't switch in (hence countering) then Magnet Rise and some how "defeat" OHKO moves. As stated, a majority of OHKO users pack Earthquake, which will totally ruin Magneton/Zone. So you're stuck with either trying to switch in on a OHKO move, or get predicted and slammed with an EQ as you switch.

Assuming you get in without dying instantly, now what? If the user packs EQ, now you need to outspeed them and Magnet Rise first. This is where the other person either outspeeds and OHKOs you with an EQ, or switches to an effective Magneton/Zone counter that can handle them even after Magnet Rising, meaning you've done really nothing to "counter".
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Point taken. I already said your points were valid and I just brought up ideas (better than "forget these because they are already used for a much better purpose")
reminds myself not to post about strategy again on these boards


Side Note:
I hate this attitude. Why does everyone believe that competitive players sacrifice fun to be competitive? WE ENJOY PLAYING THE GAME COMPETITIVELY, THATS WHY WE DO IT. This attitude gets so damn old, but I might be jaded from playing fighting games competitively for awhile and hearing all those damn kids at arcades complain...
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Just because non-competitive may be more fun than competitive does not mean that competitive is no fun. Would you rather beat those "complaining kids" every single time because of skill, or is more fun to not always be in control and possibly lose, no matter how slim a chance it may be. This ties in a bit to the next point...

Luck does indeed factor into Pokemon, more so then most competitive games. So why do we need to go farther into introducing luck into the game? This is the main argument (in my eyes) supporting the OHKO/DT clauses.

We already curse about "hax", why make it worse?
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Because Pokemon is luck. There are ways to counter the introducing of luck (even if some of the ways are woefully inadequate at high levels). Some luck to more luck should make much less of a difference than no luck to some luck. The best example I can think of the latter is competitive Super Smash Bros. Melee, where eliminating items and certain stages removes almost all luck from the game.

The main thing is that there are different types of "fun," and that is the main reason we have these problems in the first place.
 
smogon decided to start off their WiFi rules with Manaphy and OHKOs allowed. i used both on a Rain Dance team (Manaphy and Lapras). it was all jolly fun for me and my record was actually higher than it generally is - partially because it was also a damn well-designed team - but after every battle, win or lose, my opponents cursed me out. it just didnt feel good at all, i felt like i was cheating even though i wasnt at the time, but anyways i changed my team and now can at least get a "gg" from a losing opponent. even if they are allowed, way too many people simply hate OHKOs to have them work in the standard metagame unfortunately.
 
I'd like to point out that with OHKO's and DT allowed in tournaments, the tournament runners might as well just be running a lotto to decide the winner.
 
3- IMO, it looks like "Omg, Blissey don't wall this!11 This is 00ber!1".
Also, I think trying to ban everything luck based is stupid.
For this and other reasons I don't do many battles on Smogon, but w/e.
 
We aren't banning everything luck based, moves with <100% accuracy and critical hits are still there, they add variety. DT is a whole different matter, it makes every turn a dice rolling game, which isn't what I came to do.

When playing a game, thew only time you should feel cheated/frustrated is if you played poorly or the odd occasion you has some really bad misses. DT and OHKO ensures frustration and without these clauses I doubt I'd even be playing. Sure its neat in a metronome battle, but the rest of the time its not fun.
 
These sort of threads baffle me. No offence to the OP though as he has put his point across clearly and politely.

But how can anybody actually WANT to use Double Team or OHKOs? My main source of experience with those two moves is in the Battle Frontier and I can say without hesitation that they are ridiculously unfair moves that mean I've had to pack an Aerial Ace user everytime I go there.

I've often heard the argument that allowing DT will magically enhance the game somehow by encouraging people to use moves like Foresight and Shadow Punch. I think it's more likely to encourage people to walk away from the game because it's so damn frustrating. I'm getting a headache thinking about it.

I can't really add anything here, but I invite any player who favours DT to go play a large sample of games in a non DT-clause environment. If they still think it's balanced, well then I'll have to accept their opinion.
 
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