Identifying your "edge" in Pokemon

The coolest thing in battle is basically is keep giving your opponent surprises, whatever they're not expecting could pull you off wins. Surprise factor is so sick. Creating your own movesets / Ev's is the key to this, and probably strategies.

The people in the RMT section lately have been massing threads, lol the threads get put back to like page 3, 4 max I think. Now after this thread, watch there isn't going to be much RMT's besides beginners. Everyone will be waiting for each other to post teams to counter each other, lol.
 
It has been proven in history again and again that revealing your secret and asking for criticism is far more advantageous than well, keeping the secret. Being open develops the community and raises the standard.

Take for example... Cryptography. The BEST cryptography methods are public. The various algorithms that encrypt credit card information and other sensitive data before sending them through a public line are PUBLIC and well published. Any bozo worth his salt in programming can program RSA or whatever. Its not that hard. Hell, Wikipedia articles explaining the step-by-step procedure exists.

However, even though they are public, they are still bullet-proof. And thats true strength.

Linux is another example of this. You can bulletproof Linux even though its sourcecode is open. In fact, fans of Linux claim it is more secure than Windows... (IMO, anything well protected is quite secure. You still have to work on it. But that aside) Again, we can see that secrets do not necessarily hold an edge overall.

So when you have a RMT, while a single team cannot be bulletproof, you can have a single team that does its specialty job as well as possible. Its not like you are going to use that team anyway in WiFi every time, you most likely have several other teams. The hope of RMT should be to get to the point where even though your secret is revealed, it does the opponent no good to create a counter just for you.
 
Dragontamer, the "best" secrets will be revealed during the tournaments, and through battle. We don't have to reveal them right away, and revealing them kind of pisses me off(I was really excited to use Gyarados/Tangrowth/Heatran, thinking that people hadn't thought of it, then some guy posted it it in his RMT. Phuqouph goes, "I really like Tangrowth/Gyarados/Heatran" and I'm like, "I like it too. I use it too."

The teams I've posted haven't been out of the extremely standard. The unorthodox teams should be kept until using an unorthodox team is advantageous, much like the way a gene pool works. Traits are kept safe within the gene pool, though the dominant/recessive system, in heterozygotes, and if the recessive traits are advantageous in the current environment the recessive offspring will prosper, and the species continues. You keep the standards out in the open, the dominant traits, then you open your true edge when you see an opening, the recessive traits.
 
Dragontamer said:
It has been proven in history again and again that revealing your secret and asking for criticism is far more advantageous than well, keeping the secret. Being open develops the community and raises the standard.
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This is true in cryptography, not Pokemon. In fact, they are really not comparable at all. Cryptography doesn't have an element of surprise. Pokemon does. Someone else brought up the Security vs. Obscurity thing, and my answer is the exact same there:
This is true in cryptography, but in Pokemon battles since Advance (and even before Advance), the element of surprise has been extremely important. DP makes it even moreso with pokemon capable of dealing massive damage from both ends of the spectrum.
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CoolTrainer20 said:
Dragontamer, the "best" secrets will be revealed during the tournaments, and through battle. We don't have to reveal them right away, and revealing them kind of pisses me off(I was really excited to use Gyarados/Tangrowth/Heatran, thinking that people hadn't thought of it, then some guy posted it it in his RMT. Phuqouph goes, "I really like Tangrowth/Gyarados/Heatran" and I'm like, "I like it too. I use it too."

The teams I've posted haven't been out of the extremely standard. The unorthodox teams should be kept until using an unorthodox team is advantageous, much like the way a gene pool works. Traits are kept safe within the gene pool, though the dominant/recessive system, in heterozygotes, and if the recessive traits are advantageous in the current environment the recessive offspring will prosper, and the species continues. You keep the standards out in the open, the dominant traits, then you open your true edge when you see an opening, the recessive traits.
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Are you referring to me in the RMT post with those three? :-P
Anyways, I personally love little secrets, because even if they copy your team after battling you, the EVs that you used are still a secret ;-D... so in a way, that keeps something that you'd know that the opponent can't copy! :-D.
Little secrets like that can give you the edge on opponents who know little about EV spreads, so so...
Also the moveset can be different and kept semi secret also, if you don't end up using all of the attacks.
 
This is true in cryptography, but in Pokemon battles since Advance (and even before Advance), the element of surprise has been extremely important. DP makes it even moreso with pokemon capable of dealing massive damage from both ends of the spectrum.
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I'm not too sure about that. Knowing that Salemence can be both physical and special pretty well doesn't help you when Salemence comes up against ya in battle. You are not sure (ignoring meta-game research going and so forth) whether that salemence is a physical, special, or sweeper.

Yes, surprise is important. And I don't disagree with that here. However, it does you little good knowing that "Hey, Infernape has at least 3 potential movesets". (Mixed, Physical, Special). IE. Putting up Blissey because you were expecting a Special Infernape doesn't exactly help ya.

So the element of surprise still exists, even when secrets are all published.
 
Mr.E said:
There's viable Infernape movesets that don't have Close Combat?
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Only the Special Sweeping Infernape. It gives up the ability to kill off stuff like Heatran / Blissey to be able to combat Salamence / Garchomp / Dragonite.
 
Dragontamer said:
I'm not too sure about that. Knowing that Salemence can be both physical and special pretty well doesn't help you when Salemence comes up against ya in battle. You are not sure (ignoring meta-game research going and so forth) whether that salemence is a physical, special, or sweeper.

Yes, surprise is important. And I don't disagree with that here. However, it does you little good knowing that "Hey, Infernape has at least 3 potential movesets". (Mixed, Physical, Special). IE. Putting up Blissey because you were expecting a Special Infernape doesn't exactly help ya.

So the element of surprise still exists, even when secrets are all published.
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What are you talking about? There is no surprise if the team you are using is on the RMT board. If I know your Salamence or Infernape is special-only I will switch Blissey into it without fear. If I know that your Salamence is holding a Choice Band I will not switch Blissey in. There is no surprise if I know your entire team.
 
I would still run HP ice over Grass Knot (if I wanted to run HP Ice) and just switch out against Waters. I would prefer to counter the special sponge than just one type. Yet again, this is why I don't run HP ice in the first place lol
 
GonE said:
A CC-less Infernape is not threatening at all :/.
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Also not true. Everyone expects the mixed version (nasty plot, flame thrower, grass knot, CC) and salamence resists all of those. Because of this expectation salamence might think its an easy switch in, but if HP ice is there it obviously can't. Sure blissey will wall you but by the time you've given the game away you've just killed sally.
 
What are you talking about? There is no surprise if the team you are using is on the RMT board. If I know your Salamence or Infernape is special-only I will switch Blissey into it without fear. If I know that your Salamence is holding a Choice Band I will not switch Blissey in. There is no surprise if I know your entire team.
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So have two infernapes/salamences and make more than one team. Even if one of your teams is exactly raw from the RMT board, the opponent will not be able to tell which one you are using.

I'd do it anyway, because playing the same team over and over gets boring. And with breeding + everstone trick, you can get similar stats with a similar nature quite easily. (Exceptions are Legendaries of course)
 
So have two infernapes/salamences and make more than one team. Even if one of your teams is exactly raw from the RMT board, the opponent will not be able to tell which one you are using.
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Then you aren't posting your exact team to get true feedback by making it public, are you? You're making -something- secret by non-full disclosure.
 
No, lets say you have full disclosure on two similar teams. One with a Special Infernape, and one with a Physical Infernape. Unless it is late in the game, there is no way for you to figure out which infernape I have on my team.

I disclose all my teams, the ones with both physical and special Infernape. You won't be able to figure out which one I have till it is too late.
 
You cannot argue that Pokemon is inherently a level playing field. Individuals have different amounts of leisure time, and value those hours differently too. Clearly those with more leisure time, and those who value their time less, have an advantage. Competitor removes this disparity.
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I'm sorry, but this point bugs me. A professional athlete will be better than an amateur, because they spend more time on it. You aren't removing any disparity whatsoever with competitor. Those with more time will spend more time battling on competitor compared to those who don't have as much time. Period.
 
Dragontamer said:
No, lets say you have full disclosure on two similar teams. One with a Special Infernape, and one with a Physical Infernape. Unless it is late in the game, there is no way for you to figure out which infernape I have on my team.

I disclose all my teams, the ones with both physical and special Infernape. You won't be able to figure out which one I have till it is too late.
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Infernape isn't exactly a "just drop it in" pokemon -- special Infernape will fit better on some teams, and physical better on others. Swapping out a special for a physical is going to put your team a bit under its best use.
 
The protecting the edge thing is brilliant. No one expects my Sub-Punching Swampert.

Also, even if you post your team and people make and anti-you team, you must factor in the three conditions of play.

1. Team condition. (Your teams effectiveness)
2. Player condition. (Your thinking effectiveness)
3.Thouroness in the first 2.

If your opponent is drunk they would play different right? If they had a T-Tar weakness you would switch in T-Tar right? If you don't take advantage of them they wouldn't matter right? That is my point. If you don't use your advantage and know its there it will slip away. If they make a mistake they will lose even if they have counters for every single thing on your team. Pokemon has more factors then most people realize. Which is why if you are at chess you are good at Pokemon. Think over every factor. Not just the obvious ones.
 
Unownasofyet said:
The protecting the edge thing is brilliant. No one expects my Sub-Punching Swampert.
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Too bad you just told us. . .

Anyway, I find out a lot more about team building from battle experience rather than RMT topics, so you could keep your secret (well, provided your opponent doesn't make a "warstory" on Smogon after the battle), and still find out if it works.
 
adman2 said:
Too bad you just told us. . .

Anyway, I find out a lot more about team building from battle experience rather than RMT topics, so you could keep your secret (well, provided your opponent doesn't make a "warstory" on Smogon after the battle), and still find out if it works.
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My philosophy on Pokemon is that a true champion is one that always finds a way to triumph over the opponent regardless of how well they know your strategies, and without being secretive of every little thing. The sheer number of ways in which you can manipulate and out-psyche your opponent is what makes Pokemon truly great.
 
Surgo said:
Infernape isn't exactly a "just drop it in" pokemon -- special Infernape will fit better on some teams, and physical better on others. Swapping out a special for a physical is going to put your team a bit under its best use.
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When did I say to just "drop in" infernape into a team? I'm saying that if you have more than one team, it would be difficult for the opponent, even if he knows all your teams, to predict with some degree of accuracy what the moveset of Infernape is.

Now, there are two things can happen here.

1. It is early in the game and you haven't seen all of my Pokemon yet (maybe I have an infernape starter, or a baton-pass starter). I pull out Infernape. Just because I posted a team with a physical infernape does not mean that I have a special, physical, or mixed infernape. You simply don't know its moveset at all.

2. It is midgame, and you've seen most of my team, and probably 1 of my Infernapes attacks. You can make an educated guess that well, because I've have another pure physical sweeper that most likely the infernape I put out again is special. However, you still really don't know whether it is special or mixed.

3. It is late in the game, and you've seen my whole team. If you scouted correctly, you probably know my infernape is physical. But there probably isn't anything you can do about it unless you built your team to specifically counter mine.

In which case, you probably don't have a very good (general) team either.
 
What we're discussing now is about as uselessly pedantic as it gets, so let me try to clear up what I mean about non-full disclosure.

Say you really hate Swampert, so you want a way to deal with it so that some other team member that hates Swampert can sweep. So, then, you decide on using HP Grass Tyranitar, because you know that Swampert is the best switch-in on Tyranitar and anyone with a Swampert will switch it in first-thing on seeing your Tyranitar. So they do, and you slam it with HP Grass, killing it. Would this situation have happened if your team was posted in the RMT thread and they saw it? Of course not, the surprise you had with HP Grass would be ruined and useless. This is the sort of "element of surprise" that I'm talking about, not some sort of pedantic nonsense like physical vs special Infernape.

Now if you want to talk "well put your Tyranitar in the RMT with X over HP Grass and change that move" that's fine, but you're still letting yourself get scouted and giving up a lot of potentially good hits, surprise or otherwise, as your opponent switches in appropriate counters because they know what you have and are capable of.
 
Of course, I can now take advantage of that fact by simply using a normal T-Tar. And i don't have to worry about your Swampert while enjoying the benefits of using a standard choice band or whatever T-Tar that I want.

My point is this: If you are going to go scouting for other teams, you automatically lend yourself to playing a suboptimal strategy focused on countering the other person's team instead of improving your own. It gives you no gain to scout the enemy unless they have something truly innovative... which would spread like wildfire after a single battle anyway.
 
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