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Is Ho-oh still an uber?

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After mulling these uber/OU topics over and over in my head, I'm definitely going with the "allow everything and ban later" option. It's just more fun that way (and I remember it working out well that way back when SSBM came out and tiers were needed).
 
Just test it, see what happens. I am of the opinion that everything should be tested in standard at first, and then things banned as they become 'broken' - yes, this does include Groudon, Palkia, Kyogre, et cetera - for the simple reason that 'standard' is an uncentralised metagame with diversity - with the sheer number of Pokémon that could be considered 'uber' in D/P, it is possible that they would form an uncentralised metagame and that diverse standard teams could be made out of these. True, it is unlikely, but no-one can know until it has been tried. Of any of the proposed 'ubers', I think Ho-oh is the most likely to drop a tier, but this has already been argued extensively. It really needs some sort of testing before anyone can pass judgement.

One of the most annoying things about the "lets make everything a free for all" crowd is the complete denial of any prior knowledge we gained in Advance. Let in freaking GROUDON and KYOGRE? You can't be serious! "But it will test the metagame," no it will make every single match Ubers for two weeks. I guarentee you Groudon goes first. One Swords Dance, Agility or speed boost pass and a Swords Dance or Rock Polish (either can be supplied by Groudon) and welcome to sweeped team land. You think CB Rhyperior is a bitch? Swords Dance Groudon rapes horribly everything except the most defensive of Rhyperiors. Swords Dance/Earthquake/Dragon Claw/Fire Blast is damned near uncounterable. Yes, that does look like a Garchomp set and Garchomp is marginally faster. Garchomp doesn't have Base 150 Atk, 140 Defense, and 90 SD, and it also has a 4x weak. Groudon takes crap damage from the new physical Waterfall unless TTar or Kyogre comes in to change the weather.

I gotta say, I hope all of you "free for all" folks are going to denounce this level of crap.
 
There certainly hasn't been much talk over Dialga since the movepools were revealed, but in my humble opinion, if we're going to seriously consider letting certain Ubers in Standard, then I don't see him as any more of a threat than Ho-oh would be. If anything, Dialga's defensive capabilities could prove useful in deversifying the pool of heavy defenders. Then again, his Draco Meteor may be too powerful to warrant serious consideration...

To be honest, I'm being drawn to the premise of Footnote's hybrid metagame. DP Ubers is going to be hella fun, I think, but the closer Standard gets to Uber tier, the more limitations are imposed on current staples. Let Ubers be Ubers, and if anything start cleaning up Standard instead of stuffing it full of overpowered junk it doesn't need. Else, I think I'll take a vacation from OU drama for a while.
 
Eh, Dialga@Choice Specs with Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse/Thunderbolt/Fire Blast will do huge damage to damn near everything except Blisseys and very Special Defensive oriented Cresselia, and we thought Salamence was bad... If Dialga is ever allowed in Standard, it won't be walling or stalling. It will be blasting away everything in sight and utilizing its good typing and strong defenses to stay in to blast everything for a longer duration.
 
Of course Kyogre/Groudon/Palkia/Mewtwo/Lugia will automatically be banned from standards. But stuff like Rayquaza/Ho-oh/Deoxys-E/Mew (mostly the stuff allowed in the Fucking Broken tour) won't be auto-banned as soon as Competitor touches down. We need to see what it does.

Also in reference to the Fucking Broken tournament, I'm in the fourth round and I've been using a team that consists of five OUs and a UU (I'm Espy Psyche). This shows how these ubers are not gamebreaking in the least, and with all of the new threats to them in DP they are less gamebreaking.

I'm all for the "test at first, ban later" (of course ban the five I listed from it because it messes up our testing)
 
Of course Kyogre/Groudon/Palkia/Mewtwo/Lugia will automatically be banned from standards. But stuff like Rayquaza/Ho-oh/Deoxys-E/Mew (mostly the stuff allowed in the Fucking Broken tour) won't be auto-banned as soon as Competitor touches down. We need to see what it does.

Also in reference to the Fucking Broken tournament, I'm in the fourth round and I've been using a team that consists of five OUs and a UU (I'm Espy Psyche). This shows how these ubers are not gamebreaking in the least, and with all of the new threats to them in DP they are less gamebreaking.

I'm all for the "test at first, ban later" (of course ban the five I listed from it because it messes up our testing)

You can add this ubers to the instant ban list- Arseus, Lati@s @ Soul dew, Deoxys-F, Deoxys-L, Giratina.


Other then that, the rest looks ok. (Maybe Rayquaza can be added to the instant ban list).

To go back to Ho-oH, i think we should test it first.
 
Sure, let's allow Rayquaza, despite the fact that it can OHKO just about anything after a dragon dance that is not steel typed, including Rhyperior. Some of these proposals are just silly.
 
Rayquaza in OU sends Garchomp and Salamence to BL. Then everything on OU is BL.

No. 150 in both offensive stats, plus DD and 95 Base Speed, is a very broken thing.

So is Ho-Oh. Just use a RSer, and voila, you have cleaned the game, with it's worst stats being above average, in a good 90, and able to hit really hard.
 
I'm going to blunt and say that a lot of people in this topic need to play more Pokemon. If you can't see why Dialga or Rayquaza are much, much too good for OU play, you really don't have a place in this topic.
 
In a full metagame test, we can presume that stuff like Arceus would quickly make itself evident as broken. If it doesn't (for whatever, unpredicted reason), that probably means that we have a really fundamentally wrong understanding of how we're making the rules. That's really the whole point of including everything. We're protecting ourselves from our own assumptions, no matter how obvious it may seem. Also, this is crazy, what if halfway through banning "ubers", the metagame stabilizes and balances? What if the ubers of the past turn out to be components that lead to a balanced metagame by balancing with each other and with the best of the normal Pokemon? I really don't see why, in the event that that occurs (and we resolve the debate over what level of diversity is requires for a truly balanced metagame), we should reject what we get. Most people's assumed uber list is bigger than RBY's OU list; think about what that really means in terms of highest balanced metagame.

I see nothing wrong with throwing out most of what we know in Advance as there's no rush to make a concrete DP metagame. Who cares if it takes an extra 6 months because of this sort of thing? That's just 6 months later that it will eventually go stale. I don't really care if the first few weeks are just about me abusing Giratina with Double Team to counter your Mewtwo. Whatever, it's going to be fun either way, and we'll be more sure of ourselves for having done it. If nothing else, the evidence we create in the process will be very helpful in convincing newcomers and the otherwise uninitiated that our way is best.
 
You know RBY OU isn't a particulary big tier, it's perfectly normal and reasonable that there's more ubers in a fourth generation than standards in a first. I also cannot possibly see a metagame involving any uber being balanced. Heck, I cannot see any metagame being balanced, but that's another story for another day. Ho-oh, however, strikes me as the least unbalancing uber since Advance Mew.
 
Basically:

<Misty> hey guys how about we unban celebi and jirachi they're not uber X) X) X)
<AK> ok
<Synre> ok

Back then the metagame was sort of stale and people were bored and didn't get infuriated about an unorthodox proposal. At least not as much as certain people in this thread.
 
In a full metagame test, we can presume that stuff like Arceus would quickly make itself evident as broken. If it doesn't (for whatever, unpredicted reason), that probably means that we have a really fundamentally wrong understanding of how we're making the rules. That's really the whole point of including everything. We're protecting ourselves from our own assumptions, no matter how obvious it may seem. Also, this is crazy, what if halfway through banning "ubers", the metagame stabilizes and balances? What if the ubers of the past turn out to be components that lead to a balanced metagame by balancing with each other and with the best of the normal Pokemon? I really don't see why, in the event that that occurs (and we resolve the debate over what level of diversity is requires for a truly balanced metagame), we should reject what we get. Most people's assumed uber list is bigger than RBY's OU list; think about what that really means in terms of highest balanced metagame.

When anything in Ubers that isn't immune survives Swords Dance Groudon's Earthquake, let me know. Until then, Ubers unbalances the metagame simply because they can't even be countered by other Ubers. If every team having Giranta/Groudon/Dialga/Mewtwo/Blissey/Rayquaza is considered "stable" to you, be my guest. Meanwhile I'll be enjoying my new UU Salamence.

I see nothing wrong with throwing out most of what we know in Advance as there's no rush to make a concrete DP metagame.

How about one that isn't dominated by Base 670 weather Ubers, Giranta, and Mewtwo? I think it is foolish to "test out the standard metagame" when we know damn well every single Uber already dominated standard and none of them got hurt. Hell, AS Groudon alone is reason enough to ban it, it kills every concievable starter except Specs Mence, who could get royally raped by a Stone Edge CH. Or people could counter it by running Starter Kyogre and forcing it to switch out before it gets Surfed to death. Easy solution? Pack Palkia to block Kyogre. Are people understanding me yet? The only way to counter Ubers is with other Ubers.

Who cares if it takes an extra 6 months because of this sort of thing? That's just 6 months later that it will eventually go stale. I don't really care if the first few weeks are just about me abusing Giratina with Double Team to counter your Mewtwo. Whatever, it's going to be fun either way, and we'll be more sure of ourselves for having done it. If nothing else, the evidence we create in the process will be very helpful in convincing newcomers and the otherwise uninitiated that our way is best.

Or we should just say "Welcome to Smogon Pokemon Competitor! If you don't want to play Ubers in DP, call us in 6 months or play RBY/GSC/ADV, as we hope to have DP's Standard Metagame sorted out by then."
 
Basically:

<Misty> hey guys how about we unban celebi and jirachi they're not uber X) X) X)
<AK> ok
<Synre> ok

Back then the metagame was sort of stale and people were bored and didn't get infuriated about an unorthodox proposal. At least not as much as certain people in this thread.

TENCHI AND CLOUD DID IT TOO OK DONT MAKE ME AND MISTY THE ONLY ONES WHO ARE STILL AROUND WHO ARE AT FAULT HERE




But yeah that is #1 on my 'list of things I said on the internet and wish i could take back' list. I think part of the problem then was that we didn't have the FRLG or Emerald changes yet(I think we may have had or were getting FRLG but it wasn't really integrated into the metagame yet) so it was still an incomplete game.

It SOUNDED like a good idea =(
 
The difference between Groudon and, say, Armaldo (a random BL Pokemon) is much, much larger than the difference between Tyranitar and Armaldo. If Tyranitar is the biggest concern in a metagame, then Armaldo might still be semi-viable. If Pokemon like Groudon are available, good luck ever using Armaldo or any ADV BL Pokemon.

Standard is basically a "middle ground" - it seeks to find a compromise between absurdly powerful things running amok and a ban frenzy. We know some things need banning - Game Freak's own Battle Tower takes certain Pokemon out of the flow, on a fairly rigid basis, but it is still done. While Game Freak's logic is not necessarily effective (hi Latios), it is nonetheless telling that the makers of the game have condoned the banning of certain Pokemon.

My question is - how is Arceus any less unbalancing than something like Dialga? I admit there are a few borderline cases, like Mew, Deoxys-E, and even Darkrai (very iffy), but it takes only a semblance of logic to see that if Palkia is no good, Dialga is probably no good either. Nobody has suggested allowing Lugia into OU; so why should we permit Ho-oh? So what if it's 4x Rock weak? There are ways around that, and then we're dealing with a powerful Pokemon that has no peer.

I know a lot of this is conjecture, but my opinion is based on 3 previous generations' worth of study. Maybe ubers will balance out; fine, people who like that can play ubers. But the gap between ubers and even lower OU is so ridiculous that it is really self-evident that ubers shouldn't be a "standard" metagame.
 
RBY OU worked out, and there was a wide selection of usable Pokemon slightly below standard. Just because it's 4th gen doesn't mean that the number of usable Pokemon needed to make an overall balanced metagame should go up. I personally wouldn't mind if it was an RBYish metagame dominated by a select group of standards but that allowed a fairly healthy selection of substandards to be used competently in unique roles.

Comparing the difference with Groudon versus Armaldo and Tyranitar versus Armaldo isn't really fair. Of course Groudon is "more better" than Armaldo than Tyranitar as a consequence of the fact that Groudon is better than Tyranitar at all, and 2 tiers is bigger than one. A more fair statement would be one comparing Groudon to Raikou (a random old OU Pokemon, though who knows how he'll fare in DP) versus Tyranitar compared to Armaldo. I don't think the degree of separation is really as large as you would think. Outclassing insane numbers of Pokemon isn't a fair argument either as look at the RSE standards and then think of Ledian, Ariados, Ditto, Unown, Luvdisc, Mightyena, etc. NU is going to be massive either way, and I don't think there's a workable model for a standard metagame that keeps more Pokemon above the waterline than below. Even still with ubers, remember in RSE that Pokemon like Exeggutor and Shedinja actually benefitted from being in ubers so they too will contribute to the numbers in this potential metagame.

The real issue is working out what exactly constitutes balance, and how many Pokemon we really need. I think RBY's level of balance (some Pokemon are still blatently better than others, select group of OU, fair selection of sub-OU Pokemon that are still usable in standard) would be a good place to put around the minimum, though I suppose some people don't think RBY is "enough".

Also, about extremely negative comments, you act like the whole thing is a chore, and you act like new people couldn't enjoy such a game. Do you think people really want the metagame dictated to them? I would much rather, as a new user, come into a metagame test and be able to explore rather than come into something already rigidly defined and be told "people better than you decided this is best, and they know because they're so smart - enjoy". You point out that nothing can come in on a Swords Dance Groudon without the correct prediction. Well, tell me, if I had a Choice Band Tyranitar and knew exactly what you were going to do no matter what it was, would you be able to fight me at all? I'd just own you with Stone Edge/Crunch/Focus Punch, and I'd laugh while doing it as you wouldn't have a single Pokemon capable of dealing with me. The only counter to both is prediction, and that might just be the type of game DP is.

If the statement that these kinds of Pokemon don't balance with each other even is true, then well, we'd just have to ban them. The point of a test is to find that out, right?
 
Of course Kyogre/Groudon/Palkia/Mewtwo/Lugia will automatically be banned from standards.

TBH I'm not so sure if Lugia can still be considered an uber. Yes, it has 106/130/154 Defenses or something, but it has 4 common weaknesses (Ice, Electric, Dark, Rock) and a rare one (Ghost). TTar, Weavile, Magnezone, etc. can bring it down pretty easily.
 
Well, tell me, if I had a Choice Band Tyranitar and knew exactly what you were going to do no matter what it was, would you be able to fight me at all?

Dugtrio!

Calculations and sketches as well as past experiences with Pokemon with over 400 in an attacking stat and no really crappy other stats really tell us enough in my opinion. The gap between RS and DP isn't as big as RBY and GSC or GSC and RS either, I see nothing that really changes any uber besides Ho-oh enough to warrant their invitation to standard.
 
Maybe we should make a post detailing what we are and aren't going to test so we can stop seeing lunacy like this.
 
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