Is Sand Veil Overpowered?

[Forsety]

Sand Veil overpowered? No.

Sand Veil overkill? Yes.

You could send in any 100% counter to it and as long Sand Veil is out then even that counter suddenly becomes 80% good only.

The trait itself isn't too bad, but when you give it to something which is freaking hard enough to take down as it is without its specific counter and that can rampage through you. It just seems...unnecessary overkill.

Edit: If you're THAT scared, didn't the create something called wide lens?

Yes they did and its a shitty counter if thats what your suggesting.

Even if you use Wide Lens, in the end Sand Veil still cuts your accuracy more than Wide Lens will ever make up for.

while in game, there ARE definitely counters for it.

You can't counter Sand Veil on the simple basis theres no reason to. Its a simple to use bonus, not an actual thing you'd build on.

If you go into a game with a direct mindset to counter something as niche as Sand Veil than you've got problems...if you have weather effects by chance than thats a bonus in your favour.

 

[Fishin]

Wait, Keen Eye works against Sand Veil? IIRC, Keen Eye prevents you from losing accuracy, while Sand Veil increases evasion. The game considers them separate stats (since double team affects your own poke's evasion, but Sand-attack decreases accuracy), right? Hmm.

It just feels like this to me all over again, :/ One Pokémon gets something makes everyone else cry out ban/hax!!, while in game, there ARE definitely counters for it. IMO, it wouldn't have been put in the game if there were no other counters for it... which is why I have no problems playing against anyone on any level. If I'm not carrying something to counter them (or know how to counter them), I'm not doing my job right.

The problem isn't that it can't be countered. The problem is that your counters run the risk of missing 2 or 3 times in a row (does Whirlwind ever miss?) and dying without doing anything, putting you at a significant disadvantage through no error of your own. Restating that, you could say there's no way to counter it and have a 100% chance of beating it or forcing it out. Of course, that's all part of the game, but I doubt it's a part anyone likes.

 

[bejlash]

Yes, as many people have said, Sand Veil is annoying, but not overpowered. I may have lost many times to Sub+BP Garchomp, but when Spore misses, I'm a happy person. :D

 

[Muchabi]

The issue isn't that it's uncounterable, it's that your counter either is too specific and otherwise useless or has a significant chance of letting you down, thus leading to the luck complaint.

I've seen the "rapid-spinners are too specific and overall pretty useless too" argument, and would like to say that while you won't automatically get slaughtered by spikes, leaving a garchomp to dance around WILL be a problem.

But heck, there are people that have nothing against abusing the nasty (almost cheap) stuff, and there's nothing we can do about it. While I would be in favor of banning stuff like this, I'd admit there's not a clear line of what's acceptable and not.

 

[rkatzam]

Will Wide Lens make your accuracy 120% so after a Sand Veil it is lowered to 100%? Or is it capped at 100% and you'll be forced to 80% anyway?

 

[cim]

So you don't approve of things that don't have 100% counters? So no Dugtrio revenge kills since you can't switch and counter it?

 

[cim]

Will Wide Lens make your accuracy 120% so after a Sand Veil it is lowered to 100%? Or is it capped at 100% and you'll be forced to 80% anyway?

Wide lens raises 80% Accuracy 10%, or 88%. Basically, 1 in 5 miss turns into 1 in 9.

Stop whining and run Magical Leaf or something.

 

[swordmaster789]

Well, even if it causes some occasional frustrations, it's still a pretty situational ability. Rather than trying to use wide lens, why not just clear the skys with rain dance or sunny day, if the ability is that annoying.

Besides, rather than having a "secure" ability, like intimidate or water absorb, sand veil creates a situation where the user may benefit. For as much as it could cause occasional losses, that's the point; it's not unsimilar to salamence facing a machamp with stone edge. Intimidate saves it in that situation.

I don't think it's overpowered, simply because there could be better abilities, and it's not a guaranteed help anyway. All the opponent's hits could just as well make contact.

 

[Sovereign]

Magical leaf......lol

I don't think garchomp will die anytime soon with that move. As far as aura sphere goes: togekiss dies faster from garchomp and lucario dies to eq. As far as auto hit moves go, they won't help much.

 

[PassiveObserver]

You have no idea how angry it makes me when people play the game with intended abilities.

 

[Kietharr]

No, just very frustrating. Evasion clause should null all evasion increasing abilities on stuff like shoddy. It's not like Garchomp, Gliscor, or Cacturne would get much worse without it.

 

[Fishin]

Stop whining and run Magical Leaf or something.

Ignoring the fact that Magical Leaf is a really bad attack in general, the only two pokemon that could possibly use it effectively against Garchomp are Shaymin and Celebi. And while decently bulky, neither of those are really tough enough to take on Garchomp, and wouldn't exactly deal impressive damage with it. The only pokemon that can even think about coming in safely on Garchomp and use Swift with a decent amount of power is Starmie. Aura Sphere has already been mentioned. 100% accuracy moves aren't really a solution.

 

[white]

Some of you don't seem to understand that Sand Veil isn't something that needs to be 'countered,' since 80% of the time that Garchomp dies.

The substitute variant getting the miss isn't too big of a deal, since it won't have a scarf and therefore probably won't sweep. In this case, it's about as bad as any other typical bit of luck in a game.

However, when scarfchomp gets a lucky miss and ko's your ice-shard user or Swampert next time with another outrage that's just stupid, since you had the proper 'counter'.

Bottom line is, 80% of the time the right person wins, 20% of the time the wrong person wins...or if you want to specifically counter it you weaken your team to combat a bit of luck when Garchomp was good anyway. Gee, sounds a bit wrong to me...

I'd like it claused but it probably will never happen.

 

[Sovereign]

Some of you don't seem to understand that Sand Veil isn't something that needs to be 'countered,' since 80% of the time that Garchomp dies.

The substitute variant getting the miss isn't too big of a deal, since it won't have a scarf and therefore probably won't sweep. In this case, it's about as bad as any other typical bit of luck in a game.

However, when scarfchomp gets a lucky miss and ko's your ice-shard user or Swampert next time with another outrage that's just stupid, since you had the proper 'counter'.

Bottom line is, 80% of the time the right person wins, 20% of the time the wrong person wins...or if you want to specifically counter it you weaken your team to combat a bit of luck when Garchomp was good anyway. Gee, sounds a bit wrong to me...

I'd like it claused but it probably will never happen.

The whole 80% win / 20% lose business is flawed. You are assuming that garchomp gets ohkoed on a constant basis, which is not true. A garchomp in ss with bright powder can avoid a bunch of attacks while subbing + hoping for some good chances of misses. There is no way that the powderchomp has a 20% of losing to a pokemon with ice beam (assuming it actually tries to sub on a slower poke, otherwise that would be stupid to try to pull this off on say a weavile)

 

[Omega]

It's not overpowered. It's really not, it's just the metagame that makes you think it's overpowered.

 

[white]

The whole 80% win / 20% lose business is flawed. You are assuming that garchomp gets ohkoed on a constant basis, which is not true. A garchomp in ss with bright powder can avoid a bunch of attacks while subbing + hoping for some good chances of misses. There is no way that the powderchomp has a 20% of losing to a pokemon with ice beam (assuming it actually tries to sub on a slower poke, otherwise that would be stupid to try to pull this off on say a weavile)

Nope, I'm not assuming that. I'm looking specifically at the times when Garchomp would get OHKO'd by the ice move, which is a subset of the total possibilites which you are referring to. This is why I mentioned the sub garchomp as just part of normal 'hax' which happens in every game.

Point is, specific times obviously exist (notably when Garchomp is locked into an outrage), where its 80% dead, 20% alive and maybe cost the other person the game with a sweep with scarf. It happens often enough, and in these cases the 20% win rate for the Garchomp user is clearly wrong. That's all there is to it.

 

[Thorns]

I used a Sand Veil abusing Cacturne in OU in ADV, and it swept a whole team using Leech Seed and Sub Punch.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

Wait, Keen Eye works against Sand Veil? IIRC, Keen Eye prevents you from losing accuracy, while Sand Veil increases evasion. The game considers them separate stats (since double team affects your own poke's evasion, but Sand-attack decreases accuracy), right? Hmm.

So while answering your own question, no Keen Eye does NOT 'help' against Sand Veil.


Also I hear Aerial Ace is -usable- on Gliscor...And the fact that Gliscor survives +5 Dragon Claws could help...

 

[Kijin]

I think the only legitimate argument ITT which hasn't been discussed but has been passed over is banning evasion-modifying hold-items, as they're essentially a static DT on a Pokemon when DT is routinely banned under "standard" rules. Sandveil requires you to actually have some kind of set up before it triggers and banning all Pokemon on the merit of "they have X ability" is more or less retarded.

So is there going to be another thread when the OP uses Meteor Mash and it misses more than once in a row? :O

 

[demozi]

ban brightpowder if it's not already also garchomp can sub for a while to increase it;s chances to get a miss which is really how u can abuse sand veil
the LANDSHARK is a extremely good sweeper which is why every team SHOULD have not 1 but 2 good counters to it

also garchomp with lce berry really can';t be ohko by icebeam what are u gonna ban everything until we are fighting with splash magicraps and unknows

 

[rokuta]

Overpowered? No.

Ridiculous? Yes.

Sand Veil has single-handedly ruined many games for me and the opponent. Once particular instance when I had a match won, only to throw it away because of Sand Veil hax, the opponent said to me, "Sand Veil...it's a bad way to lose, and an even worse way to win."

I think he was bang on the money with that one.

It's not so much that I'm pissed off about luck costing me the game...I'll happily laugh it off when something else costs me a game...Sand Veil just seems so unneccesary.

I think i've used that line before in the same situation. I'm not that great (I don't tink lemonsoda is even ranked on shoddy), so when I get outplayed, I prefer to lose than to win by hax. My best team uses sandstorm and sd (no brightpowder) garchomp. I wish he had a different useless ability, like inner focus.

On the point of accuracy/evasion, accuracy is the attackers fault. If they use fire blast (meaning they probably get flamethrower) and miss, I start laughing. But evasion clause exists to prevent its defensive abuse. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

With evasion, roar misses. That stat boost can't be properly countered. Garchomp hits really hard, especially if its boosting behind a sub. You really only have 1 turn to counter it; if you miss, you're dead.

I agree that brightpowder should be banned. That is purposely bypassing evasion clause. Sand veil can't be helped, unless its disabled on shoddy (in which case I won't have to feel bad using a staple of my best (ss) team.

 

[Forsety]

You'd probably have an easier time getting Choice items banned than Brightpowder banned. Its not like it single handedly turns the entire game on its head unlike the aforementioned.

 

[Mekkah]

So while answering your own question, no Keen Eye does NOT 'help' against Sand Veil.


Also I hear Aerial Ace is -usable- on Gliscor...And the fact that Gliscor survives +5 Dragon Claws could help...

Too bad that Aerial Ace doesn't do shit.

Gliscor with 16 Attack EVs using Aerial Ace versus 4 HP/min Def Garchomp
200 attack vs 195 defense, 60 power(* 1.5), 327 max HP: 20.49% - 24.16%

While Garchomp disposes of Gliscor pretty quickly...

Swords Danced 359 Attack (Jolly) Garchomp using Dragon Claw versus max HP/max Defense Impish Gliscor
718 attack vs 383 defense, 80 power(* 1.5), 354 max HP: 45.48% - 53.67%

 

[rokuta]

Brightpowner, sand veil garchomp reminds me of Wrap agility dragonite from rby. That wasn't banned, so I don't think this will be either.
I guess enough people are okay with luck being the only counter to things. Keep in mind these dragons can destroy with only one turn of setup. Again, after this turn, you need luck to counter them.

I would ban wrap agility and brightpowder (and disable sand veil evasion boost) if it were up to me... but its not.

But they are innovative and I applaud the one who devised these sets


too bad everyone takes your idea

 

[Zodar0]

Sand veil on its own is not overpowered, it's annoying, but generally you'll have enough pokemon on your team capable of killing the sand veil pokemon that a miss or 2 will merely be a big inconvenience, one that is only 20% likely to happen.

Now if you pair it with Sub, Sword dance, and brightpowder... things just get stupid fast. Brightchomp ought to be banned, but sand veil can stay as long as it's not abused. Also, I'm not seeing how mr. miss is really comparable to a dragonite that... traps a pokemon and gets really fast. There ARE slower pokemon that could no doubt KO it, right (I am not familiar with earlier metagames, having only gotten into competitive battling in diamond/pearl)? That slower pokemon is a 100% counter, brightchomp can run through your whole team no matter what pokemon they are.