It is...NOT, a Wrap.

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Oglemi

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Wrap PP being a hover-over display option would probably be best.

As to the issue at hand, a Wrap-limitation Clause sounds interesting honestly. Is this worth seeing in a test tournament setting to see if it creates a more enjoyable metagame?
 
I'd rather see a counter for number of Wraps used. On PS, it's essentially the same as showing PP, since there's no way to change the number of PP Ups used, but it would at least be more comparable to in-game, where you can count the number of times a move is used but you don't know how many PP Ups the opponent has given their Pokemon. It would really only make a difference if that feature is added to PS, but having it set that way in advance would be preferable.

I wouldn't mind at least running a Wrap-limitation Clause mini-tour, Oglemi. I've had those on hold since SPL is going on and a lot of regulars are more focused on that. I'm not sure how much interest it'd gather while past gens' main official tour is going on...
 

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
I don't see the point in a wrap-limitation tour since wrap's severely underused as it is, 90% of the battles would still be wrap-free anyway, but the teams with wrap would be worse.
 
This looks mostly like a Dnite ban; other wrappers can still do their fair job, in the way they should be used.
Also: you can switch in another wrapper, use a cycle, switch to another wrapper... (can't you?)
It would only increase the chances to miss, that is the main problem of using Wrap already.

About effectiveness: Dre has been using Wrap, and pretty good at, and he had good games and bad ones.
Thunder Wave on the miss (where outspeeding is not possible) is the best way to stop wrappers (a paralyzed Bel means something like a 5 vs 6). I don't know a lot of players who play in tournaments that would like to lose a game due to a Bel's Wrap miss.

I'd conclude with: no ban, ban and this kind of restriction are three equal options in my opinion, and choosing one or another is subjective as it gets.
I've always been against banning, but I know that's subjective- the fact that wrappers are barely used influences my opinion a lot.
Only thing that should be fixed, no matter what, is that on PO you can't see when Wrap ends.
 

gorgie

formerly Floppy, now Rock hard
ive never seen that confirmed anywhere; does wrap, bind, et. al show when they end in the carts?
 
ive never seen that confirmed anywhere; does wrap, bind, et. al show when they end in the carts?
Both players can recognize when it ends because when you click FIGHT you can see ur moves, while when you're trapped you can't see moves but just "Wrap hits again" or something like that
 
You can know if it's over at the price of staying in again in case it continues. So, it can't be perfect without implementing a FIGHT button: on PS you know if wrap is over or not too early, so you can switch out safely even after 3 or 4 hits.
On PO you don't know when it's over and you/the opponent will fire an Hyper Beam (unless it has already hit 5 times), and that's way worse.
 

Jorgen

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This always confuses me, so excuse the question that's probably been answered before, but what is it about a FIGHT button that makes things different than simply not notifying the players when Wrap is over?
 

Lutra

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Apparently the FIGHT button makes you commit to attacking (taking the wrap) if the wrap isn't over, but you can change to make a switch if it is over. So not notifying is a lot worse than notifying, since you'd only switch mid-wrap if switching mindgames probably.
 
Concerning wrap clause, I disagree with implementing one, since like marcoasd explained the only wrapper that is really affected by that is Dragonite, and Dnite is not all that difficult to handle in a meta where there are T-waves and Icebeams everywhere, so if Dnite misses one wrap against most Pokemon his effectiveness is then very limited after that miss (para) or he might be dead (icebeam) because he most likely took one hit already due to setting up agility. Additionally, like mentioned before wrap is not too common anyway.
So my personal opinion is that there should be no wrap clause because it is not really necessary.
 
I don't see the point in banning wrap when it's not OP and is harder to use than non-wrap. You can outplay someone for 10 turns and get done in by one piece of RNG. Why ban a strategy that has multiple hard counters. Good players know wrap isn't OP, they just don't like versing it. They don't like using it because it takes a lot more turns and prediction to get the same reward that you can get from one good turn in a non-wrap team. I played wrap because I liked how it took a lot more strategy and forced more mindgames. But I realised I could just win as much or more by playing non-wrap without having to outplay my opponent as hard.

Also the 'free' switch isn't that free because the victim can also switch. That's where the mindgames and depth come into play. It's more complex on the wrapper's end because they get 2-5 turns to stall their switch, but they don't know what number they'll actually get. They have to decide whether to switch on turn 2, or gamble and try stall their switch to turn 3 or later. It's risky because if you try stall it past turn 2 but the wrap ends on turn 2, you could be left in an unfavourable match up, and wrap teams normally can't afford to take as much status and damage as non-wrap teams. By limiting wrap to 2 turns you'd be gutting most of the depth that wrap brings. That's probably worse than banning wrap outright.

I do think a PP counter would be good though. That basically helps players avoid cancerous PP roll overs without tweaking the in-game mechanics
 
I wouldn't be surprised if I was missing something here but...

Neither player knows if wrap has ended or not in cart until he/she clicks "fight". If you click fight and wrap's not over, move selection is skipped in both ends and the game goes straight away to using wrap. If it's ended, then both players can select a move. But still, if you want to switch out, there's no way to know if wrap's ended no matter if you are the wrap user or the target.
 
Also regarding the PP counter, players don't actually know what the PP is (since you can choose how many PP maxes you drink), so this PP counter could be wrong?
 

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
Also regarding the PP counter, players don't actually know what the PP is (since you can choose how many PP maxes you drink), so this PP counter could be wrong?
it's played by default with all max PP except on NBS; for simplicity and to make wrap less broken I think it's not an unfair rule to say that trapping moves must have PP maximised.
 
A PP counter at least keeps track of how much PP has been used. Whether or not it's used up doesn't have to be made clear. Wrap can have 20, 24, 28, or 32 PP. You'd have to act accordingly with all of those possibilities in mind.

It doesn't actually make a difference unless sub-optimal PP becomes an option on sims (are there cases other than Wrap moves where less PP might be preferred?)
 

Isa

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can we PLEASE not consider the option of running less than max pp, just like we're not considering the option to bring pre-statused pokémon into the fight?
 
can we PLEASE not consider the option of running less than max pp, just like we're not considering the option to bring pre-statused pokémon into the fight?
Having lower PP due to not having used PP Ups or a PP Max is more akin to not having max EVs. A pre-statused Pokemon, or one that has already used moves prior to battle, is a different case entirely.
 

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
nevertheless, I think we'd all appreciate it as a rule anyways.. there's the precedent of it's been this way for a few years at least, and there's the reason to keep it in that the added information the wrapper has makes wrap better/scarier, and that would make the game less fun by almost unanimous consensus should you ask.

Even as someone very pro-wrap, I think that it would make the game worse.
 

Joim

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I wouldn't be surprised if I was missing something here but...

Neither player knows if wrap has ended or not in cart until he/she clicks "fight". If you click fight and wrap's not over, move selection is skipped in both ends and the game goes straight away to using wrap. If it's ended, then both players can select a move. But still, if you want to switch out, there's no way to know if wrap's ended no matter if you are the wrap user or the target.
Then we need to improve the simulator.
 
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