The Pokemon on the list are all not used. Physically defensive Flareon isn't the only one. It was meant to provoke a response and illustrate the ridiculous power of LO 3 attacks Jynx.
Noted and fixed.
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Jynx Suspect Discussion
- Thread starter tennisace
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The Pokemon on the list are all not used. Physically defensive Flareon isn't the only one. It was meant to provoke a response and illustrate the ridiculous power of LO 3 attacks Jynx.
Noted and fixed.
Ok so, 1st I'll try to answer to a post that caught my attention.
Ok now out of all those:
- Alomomola: is setup fodder for subCM Jynx, and relies on Toxic + Wish/Protect stall, can be put to sleep quite easily and it's slower, also it's non-existant as a set.
- Gardevoir: another setup fodder (you are using a bulky version, you won't be running Shadow Ball) for CM Jynx, or for NP Jynx. Of course, you could always run lolShadow Ball on your SPECIALLY BULKY Gardevoir (notice how idiotic this already sounds), but even then, assuming NP on the switch (AND Sleep Clause activated, good luck with that):
252SpAtk Life Orb +2 Jynx (Neutral) Ice Beam vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Gardevoir (+SpDef): 70% - 84% (241 - 286 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Good counter, but adding to that:
0SpAtk Gardevoir (Neutral) Shadow Ball vs 4HP/0SpDef Leftovers Dry Skin Jynx (Neutral): 53% - 63% (146 - 174 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Which, assuming max damage AND SR on the field + LO recoil, leaves Jynx at 2% HPs, enough to shot another +2 LO'd Ice Beam, to kill Gardevoir (the amazing counter). Now, Gardevoir learns Fire Punch, but really, Fire Punch Gardevoir? (Atk Gardevoir (Neutral) Fire Punch vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Dry Skin Jynx (Neutral): 77% - 91% (210 - 248 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.)
- Musharna: on the same boat as Gardevoir, except its offensive power is even lower, so yeah, subCM destroys you, LK sleeps you then sets up on your sleeping Musharna! Oh and Synchronize doesn't work on sleep.
HP fighting doesn't threaten Jynx at all, since it's a 3HKO at best from all of those with SR down (Gardevoir learns Focus Blast too!), and none of those runs Shadow Ball/HP Fighting on their suppor set normally, it'd be JUST for Jynx, welcome overcentralization! And Hypno would need Fire Punch (lol), else NP Jynx just NPs as it uses Seismic Toss/Psychic, or can Sub on the Twave (for example), and start boosting/killing everything on sight.
The "little special bulk" part isn't true at all. 65/95 isn't made for tanking hits but it means it will tank most of the special attacks (even SE ones without stab), and no wall that relies on special attacks can touch it. Jynx can switch into a handful of pokes in NU, especially considering it has 1 immunity and the fact that weak special attacks are just a free switch in for it.
This is a bad reasoning. First of all, you aren't supposed to send in Jynx on, say, Grumpig and think "ok, now I OHKO his whole team". You send Jynx in on something you can OHKO then act accordingly. Often, even resistors will take a lot of damage, and most "good" resistors (things with recovery / decent special bulk) are either slower, weak to another move Jynx can run, or can't do much in return / will have a problem with Lovely Kiss. What I'm trying to say here is that Jynx doesn't even need to OHKO everything, it just comes in and starts crippling heavily at least 2 mons of your team, through its status move or setting up on the switch or JUST BY FIRING OFF an attack while you switch our "check" (since we appured it has no counters) that gets 3HKOd at best.
"If it had x, if it didn't have y" are just pointless theorymon that should be avoided in a suspect discussion. What we should focus on is how the Pokemon actually is, not "it'd be DEFINITELY broken if it had x more speed or special attack or whatever".
Or, you know, those fancy "counters" may just not exist!!!
I'll say my opinion answering to your question. No, NU isn't prepared for Jynx, why? It's monstrous Special Attack is one of the reasons for that. I'm aware of the fact that NU has quite a lot of attacker with monstrous attacking stats (Emboar, Sawk, Exeggutor, Samurott, and many others), but, as you can see, most of them lack at least one of the qualities Jynx has: a reliable sleeping move (yes, Lovely Kiss is reliable, if you think it always misses, you can change game and go playing chess or something else that involves less luck, or maybe stop thinking that you'll hit the 100% of your LKs in every single battle), the ability to hit hard right off the bat, or the ability to further boost their own damage. This not considering the fact that Jynx can run at least 4 different perfectly viable sets: (LO 3 attacks, SubCM, NP and ChoiceTrick), with perfect coverage, and huge attacking power. Personally, the set I liked the most was the LO + 3 attacks set. I could send it in on at least 2/6 of the average NU team (more if stall, and at least 4/6 with predictions), and then either start firing off attacks (that would cause quite a lot of damage, especially considering that the thing that outspeed Jynx are OHKOd by SE moves, and take like 60-70% from neutral attacks, effectively being able to switch only once), or Lovely Kiss right away (that's something I didn't do MUCH to be honest, I'd rather preserve my sleep for something with Sucker Punch, but even sleeping the 1st turn works). The NP set was always udnerwhelming to me, being effective only against slow teams, but you don't see many in NU lately. SubCM beats any team that relies on something such as Gardevoir/Alomomola or the sort to wall attacks, since Jynx can set up pretty much for free on them, and Lovely Kiss possible checks / "counters". The choice set is another interesting way of using Jynx, effectively able, assuming scarf, to either outspeed the common checks, killing them on the switch, having access to a fast Lovely Kiss, or Trick to cripple things that could be problematic to the other Jynx sets. Specs isn't that good to be honest, it doesn't pack much power than the LO 3 attacks set and relies much more on prediction, and the payoff isn't worth it.
Now, another factor when considering Jynx's brokeness is how it EFFECTIVELY fares against the various playstyles, as I've already posted in the NU general thread:
- Offense: has a lot of problems against Jynx, UNLESS running 6 faster mons (unrealistic). Jynx can't switch in usually (I've already addressed that earlier though), but it can easily come in after a teammate fainted, and kill a switch in / sleep something else (a sleeping mon on a offensive team is dead meat most of the times).
- Balanced: you have 1-2 mons able to revenge kill it...and that's it. Close to impossible to handle, will require sacrifices AND smart playing to take care of Jynx. Lovely Kiss is always a huge threat on the things that can outspeed it, so are its offensive abilities, since most of the things that can outspeed are easily killed. Slower mons don't stand a chance against it either
- Stall: LO 3 attacks set completely obliterates stall, so does the NP set. The CM set, requiring to boost at least twice, might have some more problems, but it's still deadly to stall, since you'll have problems revenge killing it, and NOTHING walls Jynx, N-O-T-H-I-N-G.
So here it is, my conclusion: Jynx is broken as sin.
It fares well against every playstyle, has a reliable sleeping move, has HUGE power and can hit hard right off the bat, it has no counter, and the revenge killer don't have a guaranteed way to get rid of it (unless Pursuit Tauros, but hey, CB Pursuit doesn't OHKO Jynx if it doesn't switch out, so Tauros loses most of the times). Also, revenge killing isn't really an argument to use in suspect discussions for multiple reasons. In short, my opinion is:
Ban Jynx
Ok now out of all those:
- Alomomola: is setup fodder for subCM Jynx, and relies on Toxic + Wish/Protect stall, can be put to sleep quite easily and it's slower, also it's non-existant as a set.
- Gardevoir: another setup fodder (you are using a bulky version, you won't be running Shadow Ball) for CM Jynx, or for NP Jynx. Of course, you could always run lolShadow Ball on your SPECIALLY BULKY Gardevoir (notice how idiotic this already sounds), but even then, assuming NP on the switch (AND Sleep Clause activated, good luck with that):
252SpAtk Life Orb +2 Jynx (Neutral) Ice Beam vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Gardevoir (+SpDef): 70% - 84% (241 - 286 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Good counter, but adding to that:
0SpAtk Gardevoir (Neutral) Shadow Ball vs 4HP/0SpDef Leftovers Dry Skin Jynx (Neutral): 53% - 63% (146 - 174 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Which, assuming max damage AND SR on the field + LO recoil, leaves Jynx at 2% HPs, enough to shot another +2 LO'd Ice Beam, to kill Gardevoir (the amazing counter). Now, Gardevoir learns Fire Punch, but really, Fire Punch Gardevoir? (Atk Gardevoir (Neutral) Fire Punch vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Dry Skin Jynx (Neutral): 77% - 91% (210 - 248 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.)
- Musharna: on the same boat as Gardevoir, except its offensive power is even lower, so yeah, subCM destroys you, LK sleeps you then sets up on your sleeping Musharna! Oh and Synchronize doesn't work on sleep.
HP fighting doesn't threaten Jynx at all, since it's a 3HKO at best from all of those with SR down (Gardevoir learns Focus Blast too!), and none of those runs Shadow Ball/HP Fighting on their suppor set normally, it'd be JUST for Jynx, welcome overcentralization! And Hypno would need Fire Punch (lol), else NP Jynx just NPs as it uses Seismic Toss/Psychic, or can Sub on the Twave (for example), and start boosting/killing everything on sight.
The "little special bulk" part isn't true at all. 65/95 isn't made for tanking hits but it means it will tank most of the special attacks (even SE ones without stab), and no wall that relies on special attacks can touch it. Jynx can switch into a handful of pokes in NU, especially considering it has 1 immunity and the fact that weak special attacks are just a free switch in for it.
This is a bad reasoning. First of all, you aren't supposed to send in Jynx on, say, Grumpig and think "ok, now I OHKO his whole team". You send Jynx in on something you can OHKO then act accordingly. Often, even resistors will take a lot of damage, and most "good" resistors (things with recovery / decent special bulk) are either slower, weak to another move Jynx can run, or can't do much in return / will have a problem with Lovely Kiss. What I'm trying to say here is that Jynx doesn't even need to OHKO everything, it just comes in and starts crippling heavily at least 2 mons of your team, through its status move or setting up on the switch or JUST BY FIRING OFF an attack while you switch our "check" (since we appured it has no counters) that gets 3HKOd at best.
"If it had x, if it didn't have y" are just pointless theorymon that should be avoided in a suspect discussion. What we should focus on is how the Pokemon actually is, not "it'd be DEFINITELY broken if it had x more speed or special attack or whatever".
Or, you know, those fancy "counters" may just not exist!!!
I'll say my opinion answering to your question. No, NU isn't prepared for Jynx, why? It's monstrous Special Attack is one of the reasons for that. I'm aware of the fact that NU has quite a lot of attacker with monstrous attacking stats (Emboar, Sawk, Exeggutor, Samurott, and many others), but, as you can see, most of them lack at least one of the qualities Jynx has: a reliable sleeping move (yes, Lovely Kiss is reliable, if you think it always misses, you can change game and go playing chess or something else that involves less luck, or maybe stop thinking that you'll hit the 100% of your LKs in every single battle), the ability to hit hard right off the bat, or the ability to further boost their own damage. This not considering the fact that Jynx can run at least 4 different perfectly viable sets: (LO 3 attacks, SubCM, NP and ChoiceTrick), with perfect coverage, and huge attacking power. Personally, the set I liked the most was the LO + 3 attacks set. I could send it in on at least 2/6 of the average NU team (more if stall, and at least 4/6 with predictions), and then either start firing off attacks (that would cause quite a lot of damage, especially considering that the thing that outspeed Jynx are OHKOd by SE moves, and take like 60-70% from neutral attacks, effectively being able to switch only once), or Lovely Kiss right away (that's something I didn't do MUCH to be honest, I'd rather preserve my sleep for something with Sucker Punch, but even sleeping the 1st turn works). The NP set was always udnerwhelming to me, being effective only against slow teams, but you don't see many in NU lately. SubCM beats any team that relies on something such as Gardevoir/Alomomola or the sort to wall attacks, since Jynx can set up pretty much for free on them, and Lovely Kiss possible checks / "counters". The choice set is another interesting way of using Jynx, effectively able, assuming scarf, to either outspeed the common checks, killing them on the switch, having access to a fast Lovely Kiss, or Trick to cripple things that could be problematic to the other Jynx sets. Specs isn't that good to be honest, it doesn't pack much power than the LO 3 attacks set and relies much more on prediction, and the payoff isn't worth it.
Now, another factor when considering Jynx's brokeness is how it EFFECTIVELY fares against the various playstyles, as I've already posted in the NU general thread:
- Offense: has a lot of problems against Jynx, UNLESS running 6 faster mons (unrealistic). Jynx can't switch in usually (I've already addressed that earlier though), but it can easily come in after a teammate fainted, and kill a switch in / sleep something else (a sleeping mon on a offensive team is dead meat most of the times).
- Balanced: you have 1-2 mons able to revenge kill it...and that's it. Close to impossible to handle, will require sacrifices AND smart playing to take care of Jynx. Lovely Kiss is always a huge threat on the things that can outspeed it, so are its offensive abilities, since most of the things that can outspeed are easily killed. Slower mons don't stand a chance against it either
- Stall: LO 3 attacks set completely obliterates stall, so does the NP set. The CM set, requiring to boost at least twice, might have some more problems, but it's still deadly to stall, since you'll have problems revenge killing it, and NOTHING walls Jynx, N-O-T-H-I-N-G.
So here it is, my conclusion: Jynx is broken as sin.
It fares well against every playstyle, has a reliable sleeping move, has HUGE power and can hit hard right off the bat, it has no counter, and the revenge killer don't have a guaranteed way to get rid of it (unless Pursuit Tauros, but hey, CB Pursuit doesn't OHKO Jynx if it doesn't switch out, so Tauros loses most of the times). Also, revenge killing isn't really an argument to use in suspect discussions for multiple reasons. In short, my opinion is:
Ban Jynx
Except that as I've said, Hypno beats Jynx (Jynx needs +2 to reliably 2HKO, and Hypno can just flatten it with Fire Punch as a sacrifice if need be). If you have SR up, Hypno OHKOs Jynx.
CB Pursuit Tauros does 90.03 - 106.27% with Pursuit. If you factor in Life Orb, or any entry hazard, Jynx goes down.
I'm glad we're able to establish some facts in this debate, I think it has finally put some weight behind arguments.
I'll address some of what Luck>Skill said:
You proved that the only Pokemon currently in the tier that can withstand LO + 3 Attacks cannot withstand Jynx's boosting sets. I'm glad that has been established and I don't think it was in any doubt after running the calculations. From that we can proudly establish this fact:
Jynx has officially no counters in NU!
I don't agree on this, I'd defend my choice of words to describe Jynx's bulk. Jynx's special bulk is indeed 'little'. Switching into uninvested Misdreavus's Shadow Ball could see Jynx die of LO recoil the next turn. Uninvested Vileplume could cleave half of Jynx's health away. The only Pokemon that doesn't hurt Jynx are the weakest special attackers in the tier. I'd consider that quite poor special bulk.
It's not bad reasoning at all. No one is saying send Jynx in and expect 6 straight KOes. The fact that Jynx lacks the power to OHKO a lot of the tier while it can be OHKOed back is a legitimate concern.
If it could tank a hit then I agree it wouldn't be much of an issue. Jynx would then hit something, take a hit, then hit it back. But the issue is precisely Jynx can't tank a hit so the scenario becomes Jynx hits something, it hits Jynx back for the OHKO. Jynx's bulk causes it to lose in that scenario so the point is it needs a bit more support than a standard sweeper which definitely is a valid point and should enter consideration.
I'll read your other points in more detail. I'll address them if they need addressing at all.
As a passing reference, I don't understand your need to belittle every poster you're replying to. Almost every line there's little sarcastic snide remarks like:
"lolShadow Ball
good luck with that
Gardevoir (the amazing counter)
Fire Punch Gardevoir? (Who here was advocating Fire Punch Gardevoir?)
welcome overcentralization!"
I'm obviously not going to go through your whole post but that's so unnecessary. It may surprise you to find that just presenting your points along with the facts is enough; adding little sarcastic remarks isn't going to add weight to your points, or make you seem more intelligent.
edit: Found this too:
Raising the question of Jynx's speed tier and lack of bulk and lack of immediate killing power are legitimate points. If I had started talking about an imaginary Ice Absorb Dark/Ghost type you might have a point, but I was comparing specifically to Jynx's current stats and trying to identify conceivable 'problems' by thinking of them from the reverse angle. I can't believe you used this as an argument. I can see plenty of 'pointless theorymon' at a glance at your post if you really think arguing over that is a viable way to further this discussion.
I'll address some of what Luck>Skill said:
You proved that the only Pokemon currently in the tier that can withstand LO + 3 Attacks cannot withstand Jynx's boosting sets. I'm glad that has been established and I don't think it was in any doubt after running the calculations. From that we can proudly establish this fact:
Jynx has officially no counters in NU!
I don't agree on this, I'd defend my choice of words to describe Jynx's bulk. Jynx's special bulk is indeed 'little'. Switching into uninvested Misdreavus's Shadow Ball could see Jynx die of LO recoil the next turn. Uninvested Vileplume could cleave half of Jynx's health away. The only Pokemon that doesn't hurt Jynx are the weakest special attackers in the tier. I'd consider that quite poor special bulk.
It's not bad reasoning at all. No one is saying send Jynx in and expect 6 straight KOes. The fact that Jynx lacks the power to OHKO a lot of the tier while it can be OHKOed back is a legitimate concern.
If it could tank a hit then I agree it wouldn't be much of an issue. Jynx would then hit something, take a hit, then hit it back. But the issue is precisely Jynx can't tank a hit so the scenario becomes Jynx hits something, it hits Jynx back for the OHKO. Jynx's bulk causes it to lose in that scenario so the point is it needs a bit more support than a standard sweeper which definitely is a valid point and should enter consideration.
I'll read your other points in more detail. I'll address them if they need addressing at all.
As a passing reference, I don't understand your need to belittle every poster you're replying to. Almost every line there's little sarcastic snide remarks like:
"lolShadow Ball
good luck with that
Gardevoir (the amazing counter)
Fire Punch Gardevoir? (Who here was advocating Fire Punch Gardevoir?)
welcome overcentralization!"
I'm obviously not going to go through your whole post but that's so unnecessary. It may surprise you to find that just presenting your points along with the facts is enough; adding little sarcastic remarks isn't going to add weight to your points, or make you seem more intelligent.
edit: Found this too:
Raising the question of Jynx's speed tier and lack of bulk and lack of immediate killing power are legitimate points. If I had started talking about an imaginary Ice Absorb Dark/Ghost type you might have a point, but I was comparing specifically to Jynx's current stats and trying to identify conceivable 'problems' by thinking of them from the reverse angle. I can't believe you used this as an argument. I can see plenty of 'pointless theorymon' at a glance at your post if you really think arguing over that is a viable way to further this discussion.
And Shedinja stops Kyogre by not even taking damage from it.Like Hypno only being good for beating Jynx, Shedinja is shit at doing anything else that is not being the godliest counter to Kyogre ever found. And inb4 you are not giving hypno a chance or similar arguments, IT DOESNT FIT AT ALL IN OFFENSIVE TEAMS not to mention that oh great you forced jynx out, now enjoy Samurott/Absol/Whatever getting a free Swords Dance on it that might harm even more than what Jynx could have done before.
Edit: How could I forget this, it is dead weight against teams not packing Jynx.
I don't want to sound rude, but are you serious? Fire Punch Hypno? Pray tell, what does Fire Punch Hypno do for you when your opponent doesn't have a Jynx? I will admit, it does look better than Rest Magmar, but that's not saying much.
EDIT: I don't want to trail off from the Jynx discussion, but I'd also like to mention that NU Stall is hard pressed to make every Pokemon count, and I just don't see how a Fire Punch Hypno can really contribute to a stall team that well other than stopping Jynx. We're just rattling off shaky counters / checks that are almost useless when they aren't stopping Jynx.
LuckOverSkill was talking about stall not having anything that can wall Jynx. Stall can fit in Hypno. And for what little it's worth, Fire Punch lets it beat Special Victreebel. Is it going to be a great Pokemon? No, I can safely say that much. But people are acting like Jynx is some unstoppable force of nature when there are checks and counters to it out there. Maybe some are a bit uncommon, but considering how diverse NU is, you either boot them out or you evolve uncommon counters to them and the metagame changes.
I said it can tank most neutral attacks and Super Effective unSTABbed ones, I never said I'm going to switch Jynx intro Misdreavus, or into anything whose STAB move hits Jynx for SE damage, for that matter. Also, you aren't switching Jynx into Special Attack just because you like to send Jynx in, I only said you can switch it into most non-dedicated special attackers without fearing it to get OHKOd in the process. Of course, Jynx can't come in Vileplume's Sludge Bomb freely, especially with SR down, but that's another problem
No, it's not that big of a concern, really. Most of the things that would OHKO Jynx are OHKOd by it before they can switch in/move, unless accounting predictions/switches into resisted moves, but nothing that has recovery outspeeds Jynx, aside from Cryogonal, that is OHKOd by Psyshock. So my point still stands.
The Fire Punch Gardevoir was an example, also making irony out of Fire Punch Hypno (and the complete stupidity of it), if you didn't get it. The other lines are just little sarcastic references that I put here and there in a good amount of my posts, but I don't see how those would cause any harm / hinder the overall quality of my post.
You said yourself Jynx is in a GOOD speed tier for NU, and now you question that the same speed tier isn't good enough. Jynx DOESN'T lack IMMEDIATE KILLING POWER, how many times will someone have to post calcs about +0 LO'd attacks doing good chunks even on DEDICATED Special Walls before this "myth" about Jynx being unable to hurt things without setting up will fade. Explain me how 3-4HKOing even the sturdiest special walls in the tier (that can't do anything bad, I should add) is "lack of immediate power", I'm intrigued.
I specifically singled out two Pokemon that Jynx could 'prey' on (thanks largely to the discussion that Django started in the other thread). I did not bother showing Jynx switching into Magmortar or the various other threats that Jynx shouldn't be switching into. I was demonstrating that even weak Pokemon that were specifically singled out to be 'safe' for Jynx to be switching into has a chance of seriously hurting Jynx. That is an indication of Jynx's bulk which I believe I was within rights to call 'little'.
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here. In a 1 v 1 scenario Jynx fails to OHKO a majority of the tier. This wouldn't normally be a problem but Jynx has little bulk to speak of, thus anything it fails to OHKO but that can OHKO it back is a serious concern for Jynx. This limits its sweeping potential compared to something that can take a hit from most of the tier.
This doesn't consider Lovely Kiss of course, it's a simple comparison between other 'sweepers' and Jynx and trying to illustrate how Jynx's bulk affects it and that it is not something that has no impact on Jynx's viability.
By all means, I don't mean to police. They do distract from your points and most importantly facts. This is a suspect discussion that will have major implications (ie a ban!) in the tier that we enjoy so we need to get the discussion right, I prefer less bragging or ridiculing in this situation. There's no need when your position is very strong already based on facts alone.
We are all agreed that Jynx is in a good speed tier. But that doesn't mean that Jynx's speed is faultless. I was drawing attention to the things that do outspeed it and that practically all of them can sweep through Jynx with no problems. Thus Jynx's massive power is compromised by its bulk because it cannot take a hit from these faster threats and KO them back like a lot of 'normal' sweepers. This again has an impact on Jynx's viability and role in the tier, and is something to consider.
The lack of immediate power part is in reference to the earlier point that 1v1 if Jynx cannot OHKO something then it is forced out unlike some other sweepers. I honestly haven't done any calcs on what Jynx can and can't OHKO straight off the bat. Having those numbers could be a huge asset to this discussion.
Some of these points may seem small but they all have to be considered. When you describe Jynx as being able to come in and sleep something and then dish out a kill or two, it's unrealistic because Jynx is not an orthodox sweeper with bulk that can take things in its stride. It's a threat that also has to be managed and supported well before it starts performing the way you describe it. Those deficiencies could be crucial in deciding whether it is broken or 'manageable'.
Jynx reminds me a lot of SubSpore Breloom and SubDisable Gengar from OU. All three sets have the potential to wreak absolute havoc on teams, but only if the user knows how to use them correctly; all three sets also can be defeated very easily with proper predictions or by simply outplaying the opponent. Is Jynx highly powerful? Oh, rediculously. It defeats me completely on numerous occasions. But, having said that, it's such a high-risk, high-reward Pokemon so I do not think its considered "broken."
Jynx is not high-risk high-reward. It is low-risk, incredible-reward. You switch in on something that doesn't threaten you. Or use a slow u-turner if neccesary. The opponent is now forced to predict if you will sub, attack or sleep. If they guess wrong they lose a mon. They can then revenge kill it(assuming Jynx did not pick substitute) so the Jynx user switches out and trys again later. It doesn't always sleep but a smart Jynx user can easily get 2 kills a match; even against a team that it should struggle against.
Jynx can dominate every playstyle; has enough durability with sub and lefties. Enough power to break through the tier. Enough speed to outrun what would be good checks. Jynx can get past any pokemon she wants; the Jynx user will always have a huge advantage since there is nothing to take any set; and he or she can pick and choose which Pokemon to be removed by Jynx.
I know this is short but I posted a lot of my sentiments in the megathread; I'll post more here later if needed
Jynx can dominate every playstyle; has enough durability with sub and lefties. Enough power to break through the tier. Enough speed to outrun what would be good checks. Jynx can get past any pokemon she wants; the Jynx user will always have a huge advantage since there is nothing to take any set; and he or she can pick and choose which Pokemon to be removed by Jynx.
I know this is short but I posted a lot of my sentiments in the megathread; I'll post more here later if needed
I guess I'll share my thoughts on Jynx.
(Keep in mind I'm talking about Lovely Kiss / Ice Beam / Psyshock / Focus Blast Jynx @ Life Orb throughout most of this post.)
Jynx can easily muscle through NU teams thanks to its great STAB combination, good Speed, and Lovely Kiss. While it struggles switching-in, it doesn't really need to. It's unrealistic for a team to have 6 Pokemon that outspeed Jynx and/or can beat it 1 on 1 that is actually good. Jynx is at a good Speed tier. Also, the amount of Pokemon that can beat it 1 on 1 is quite low thanks to Lovely Kiss... unless you depend on hax. Either way, you're not sending Jynx out on something that it fails to OHKO. You're sending it out on something it OHKO's, and then using Lovely Kiss on whatever check comes in, or potentially sweeping the whole team. Jynx can usually secure 2 KO's this way, as sleeping something is effectively killing something in this gen. Clerics are far and few in-between in NU. The only common ones are Lickilicky, Misdreavus, and Vileplume.
For those of you saying Jynx is high-risk high reward, I question where you're coming from. Jynx is not high-risk high reward; the only risks you're taking are... random scarf Pokemon, Focus Blast's miss chance, and Lovely Kiss' miss chance? The random Choice Scarf Pokemon are usually fairly easy to predict and you shouldn't be depending on Lovely Kiss or Focus Blast very often. That's where some people go wrong: they use Lovely Kiss way too early when Jynx is competent enough to sweep on its own. It should only be using Lovely Kiss on Pokemon it can't muscle through right away.
Against offense teams, there will usually be at least 2 Pokemon that Jynx outspeeds. Maybe more in bulky offense or choice offense. These Pokemon are usually frail enough for Jynx to beat; in fact, very few primarily offensive Pokemon can withstand a hit from Jynx. It's not an exaggeration to say that Jynx will usually get a kill in a match against offense; probably more. And that is the playstyle that Jynx tends to do worst against.
Against balanced and defensive teams, Jynx has an easier time sweeping. All it has to do is wait for a few checks to be weakened, and then come in and wreck havoc. It's very hard to stop without a Pokemon such as Grumpig, Hypno, and Metang. All of which have their own problems; Hypno is even 2HKO'd by Nasty Plot Jynx.
Speaking of Nasty Plot Jynx, that's another thing that makes Jynx broken: it can pick and choose what checks it. That wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for Lovely Kiss; it could incapitate your counter without you even realizing it... until it's too late. The checks aren't even that much different from set-to-set; often a team will only have 1 Pokemon for it and that can become incapitated by Lovely Kiss. SubNP Jynx, while not as hard to check, can still easily sweep weakened teams. Substitute is a very useful crutch; however, Lovely Kiss + 3 attacks barely misses it. Jynx doesn't even suffer much from 4MSS. It'd like Sub / NP / Lovely Kiss / Ice Beam / Psyshock / Psychic / Focus Blast, but it doesn't particularly need it.
Also, while Jynx is weak to SR, it also abuses SR well. Most of Jynx's checks are Fire- and Ice-types. Once SR is down, those checks start to become very unreliable, or even fail at their job with it. The presence of Stealth Rock is a double-edged sword for Jynx.
Jynx requires you to play very carefully when you see it; you never know what set it's going to run; you have to keep all of your checks alive at one time; you have to play well to actually beat it when it comes out. It also greatly restricts teambuilding. There really is no good sleep absorber in NU so often you have to sac something to sleep... and if the Jynx user attacks what you're trying to sac, you're done. You basically have to keep the Pokemon that's sleeping alive -- you have to keep that useless Pokemon alive; you can't sac it or Heal Bell while Jynx is still alive unless you don't mind another Pokemon getting Lovely Kiss'd -- just to beat it.
Jynx is too much for NU to handle and NU would be better off without it.
@Stagnant: Welcome to suspect discussions.
Anyways, many of those are unreliable checks once SR is up. Some of them are awful in general and not so good at checking Jynx, either. Also, if we have the option of banning something that's broken in the meta, it should be done. Who said SR is broken, anyways?
(Keep in mind I'm talking about Lovely Kiss / Ice Beam / Psyshock / Focus Blast Jynx @ Life Orb throughout most of this post.)
Jynx can easily muscle through NU teams thanks to its great STAB combination, good Speed, and Lovely Kiss. While it struggles switching-in, it doesn't really need to. It's unrealistic for a team to have 6 Pokemon that outspeed Jynx and/or can beat it 1 on 1 that is actually good. Jynx is at a good Speed tier. Also, the amount of Pokemon that can beat it 1 on 1 is quite low thanks to Lovely Kiss... unless you depend on hax. Either way, you're not sending Jynx out on something that it fails to OHKO. You're sending it out on something it OHKO's, and then using Lovely Kiss on whatever check comes in, or potentially sweeping the whole team. Jynx can usually secure 2 KO's this way, as sleeping something is effectively killing something in this gen. Clerics are far and few in-between in NU. The only common ones are Lickilicky, Misdreavus, and Vileplume.
For those of you saying Jynx is high-risk high reward, I question where you're coming from. Jynx is not high-risk high reward; the only risks you're taking are... random scarf Pokemon, Focus Blast's miss chance, and Lovely Kiss' miss chance? The random Choice Scarf Pokemon are usually fairly easy to predict and you shouldn't be depending on Lovely Kiss or Focus Blast very often. That's where some people go wrong: they use Lovely Kiss way too early when Jynx is competent enough to sweep on its own. It should only be using Lovely Kiss on Pokemon it can't muscle through right away.
Against offense teams, there will usually be at least 2 Pokemon that Jynx outspeeds. Maybe more in bulky offense or choice offense. These Pokemon are usually frail enough for Jynx to beat; in fact, very few primarily offensive Pokemon can withstand a hit from Jynx. It's not an exaggeration to say that Jynx will usually get a kill in a match against offense; probably more. And that is the playstyle that Jynx tends to do worst against.
Against balanced and defensive teams, Jynx has an easier time sweeping. All it has to do is wait for a few checks to be weakened, and then come in and wreck havoc. It's very hard to stop without a Pokemon such as Grumpig, Hypno, and Metang. All of which have their own problems; Hypno is even 2HKO'd by Nasty Plot Jynx.
Speaking of Nasty Plot Jynx, that's another thing that makes Jynx broken: it can pick and choose what checks it. That wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for Lovely Kiss; it could incapitate your counter without you even realizing it... until it's too late. The checks aren't even that much different from set-to-set; often a team will only have 1 Pokemon for it and that can become incapitated by Lovely Kiss. SubNP Jynx, while not as hard to check, can still easily sweep weakened teams. Substitute is a very useful crutch; however, Lovely Kiss + 3 attacks barely misses it. Jynx doesn't even suffer much from 4MSS. It'd like Sub / NP / Lovely Kiss / Ice Beam / Psyshock / Psychic / Focus Blast, but it doesn't particularly need it.
Also, while Jynx is weak to SR, it also abuses SR well. Most of Jynx's checks are Fire- and Ice-types. Once SR is down, those checks start to become very unreliable, or even fail at their job with it. The presence of Stealth Rock is a double-edged sword for Jynx.
Jynx requires you to play very carefully when you see it; you never know what set it's going to run; you have to keep all of your checks alive at one time; you have to play well to actually beat it when it comes out. It also greatly restricts teambuilding. There really is no good sleep absorber in NU so often you have to sac something to sleep... and if the Jynx user attacks what you're trying to sac, you're done. You basically have to keep the Pokemon that's sleeping alive -- you have to keep that useless Pokemon alive; you can't sac it or Heal Bell while Jynx is still alive unless you don't mind another Pokemon getting Lovely Kiss'd -- just to beat it.
Jynx is too much for NU to handle and NU would be better off without it.
@Stagnant: Welcome to suspect discussions.
Anyways, many of those are unreliable checks once SR is up. Some of them are awful in general and not so good at checking Jynx, either. Also, if we have the option of banning something that's broken in the meta, it should be done. Who said SR is broken, anyways?
All of them are fucked if Jynx is not using Sub+Np set.
Lets get this started, all of these are assuming
Grumpig is the only legitimate one in this list, but he can do nothing else and if Absol is with Jynx then it is all over for our little brave pig.
Lol wormadam, i'll assume steel one(this is a crap mon in general so idk why would someone consider it):
Focus Blast: 162-192 (50 - 59.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Others moves won't do enough damage but if Sleep Clause is not on effect already then it is all over for Wormadam, by having Jynx either leaving the field for someone else to finish her job or take the minor risk with focus blast.
Regice(standard spread on the analysis):
Focus Blast: 170-200 (46.83 - 55.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And for careful players that don't want to risk a miss, now with Psyshock:
Psyshock: 156-184 (42.97 - 50.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Lapras(specially defensive):
Focus Blast: 232-274 (50.1 - 59.17%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Safe player version:
Psyshock: 187-222 (40.38 - 47.94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Walrein(Encore Support):
Focus Blast: 242-286 (57.07 - 67.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Careful player Version:
Psyshock: 169-199 (39.85 - 46.93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Miltank( Curse as it is the one with the most special bulk)
Focus Blast: 282-332 (71.57 - 84.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And for reference this is the damage from Psyshock:
Psyshock: 150-177 (38.07 - 44.92%) so a combination of this 2 moves will eliminate Miltank.
As if this was not already clear, once Jynx comes in:
Raseri said:
Let's get one thing said here that nobody other than Luck>Skill has even bothered to mention. Grumpig is by far the best Jynx counter in NU,thanks to its Psychic-typing, Thick Fat, and very nice stats for a specially defensive Pokemon. Not even specially defensive Flareon is safe when Jynx could contentially be a Kiss + 3 Attacks set with Psyshock while Grumpig can take any of its hits regardless. Even without Sleep Clause Grumpig is capable of taking a Lovely Kiss, eventually waking up, using Taunt, breaking Substitute with Psyshock, and finally using Thunder Wave. However this process is very lengthy and assuming that Grumpig gets the average 3-turn wake up Jynx will be behind a Sub with 2 Nasty Plot capable of hitting Grumpig with a +4 Ice Beam before being forced out by Thunder Wave. However that +4 Ice Beam deals a solid 39.56% - 46.43% while after all those sleep turns Jynx will be back to near or at full health capable of doing it again.
The same can be said about Grumpig that with Wish support it can constantly beat Jynx again and again, but sadly keeping defensive momentum is much harder in NU than keeping an offensive one and Grumpig opens up the playing field for Pokemon such as Absol or Skuntank to come and wreak havoc not to mention easily beat the most common users of Wish such as Hypno, Gardevoir, and Lickilicky while Jynx swiftly beat any Alomomola. This limits the amount of times Grumpig is capable of coming in to wall what it needs to while Jynx can deal solid chunks of damage while coming out unscathed. This already sounds bad as it is but consider how this is Jynx's best counter and isn't even common to begin with, I haven't seen more than 2 people who have been using Grumpig outside of me. All other of Jynx's common switch ins die to a different set which are all equally deadly and more than capable of doing more than just beating SubPlot's standard counters.
Now I heard people saying that they though offensive teams had absolutely no problems with Jynx, and I'm here to say that is an incredibly ludicrous statement. They just say that things like Scarf Pokemon such as Sawk or Braviary or Cinccino can come in and revenge it no problem. The thing is that Jynx is very fast and more than likely no offensive team will have their entire team capable of outspeeding a base 95 Pokemon leaving some Pokemon on their capable of being prey to Jynx. That and Jynx being revenged killed by those Pokemon is just the point, they cannot switch into it they will come in to kill Jynx after another one of their Pokemon go down. In other words if you have "no trouble" beating Jynx because your Cinccino can take it out with Rock Blast doesn't that mean it already took one of your Pokemon down? Teams using Jynx are offensive and by sacrificing Pokemon just to give yourself a window to revenge kill it makes Jynx easier for another of Jynx's partners to break down your team. Outside of Cinccino if you let a Jynx take down one of your slower Pokemon chances are it used Lovely Kiss, got up a Substitute, and then took your Pokemon down. Jynx is left with a Substitute to take down your revenge killer or incapacitate another Pokemon with Lovely Kiss. By just giving it a chance to do something you already essentially lost 2 Pokemon and possibly let it open a new path for one of Jynx's common partners such as Absol or Samurott to sweep.
I have no direct say in how this turns out, but if I did I would have to go with Ban Jynx for the ability to easily break past its counters with the right set and the rest of its checks or counters are beat by pairing it up with common and powerful Pokemon such as Absol/Skuntank or/and Samurott who appreciate Jynx's ability to force teams to ditch their Tangela, Vileplume, or Amoonguss to attempt to revenge kill it, while they take the opportunity against a torn apart team or use Jynx's Lovely Kiss to set up, as well as they can take out common Jynx killers such as Cinccino, Braviary, or Swellow with boosted priority attacks.
The same can be said about Grumpig that with Wish support it can constantly beat Jynx again and again, but sadly keeping defensive momentum is much harder in NU than keeping an offensive one and Grumpig opens up the playing field for Pokemon such as Absol or Skuntank to come and wreak havoc not to mention easily beat the most common users of Wish such as Hypno, Gardevoir, and Lickilicky while Jynx swiftly beat any Alomomola. This limits the amount of times Grumpig is capable of coming in to wall what it needs to while Jynx can deal solid chunks of damage while coming out unscathed. This already sounds bad as it is but consider how this is Jynx's best counter and isn't even common to begin with, I haven't seen more than 2 people who have been using Grumpig outside of me. All other of Jynx's common switch ins die to a different set which are all equally deadly and more than capable of doing more than just beating SubPlot's standard counters.
Now I heard people saying that they though offensive teams had absolutely no problems with Jynx, and I'm here to say that is an incredibly ludicrous statement. They just say that things like Scarf Pokemon such as Sawk or Braviary or Cinccino can come in and revenge it no problem. The thing is that Jynx is very fast and more than likely no offensive team will have their entire team capable of outspeeding a base 95 Pokemon leaving some Pokemon on their capable of being prey to Jynx. That and Jynx being revenged killed by those Pokemon is just the point, they cannot switch into it they will come in to kill Jynx after another one of their Pokemon go down. In other words if you have "no trouble" beating Jynx because your Cinccino can take it out with Rock Blast doesn't that mean it already took one of your Pokemon down? Teams using Jynx are offensive and by sacrificing Pokemon just to give yourself a window to revenge kill it makes Jynx easier for another of Jynx's partners to break down your team. Outside of Cinccino if you let a Jynx take down one of your slower Pokemon chances are it used Lovely Kiss, got up a Substitute, and then took your Pokemon down. Jynx is left with a Substitute to take down your revenge killer or incapacitate another Pokemon with Lovely Kiss. By just giving it a chance to do something you already essentially lost 2 Pokemon and possibly let it open a new path for one of Jynx's common partners such as Absol or Samurott to sweep.
Raseri said:
I have no direct say in how this turns out, but if I did I would have to go with Ban Jynx for the ability to easily break past its counters with the right set and the rest of its checks or counters are beat by pairing it up with common and powerful Pokemon such as Absol/Skuntank or/and Samurott who appreciate Jynx's ability to force teams to ditch their Tangela, Vileplume, or Amoonguss to attempt to revenge kill it, while they take the opportunity against a torn apart team or use Jynx's Lovely Kiss to set up, as well as they can take out common Jynx killers such as Cinccino, Braviary, or Swellow with boosted priority attacks.
Can't argue with that whatsoever.
Just to put the fact that Jynx 2HKOes almost the entire NU tier into context, it may be of interest to know that Jynx also 2HKOes the entire RU tier apart from the following: (Honko's calc not working makes me sad)
Specially defensive Slowking,
Specially defensive Uxie,
Specially defensive Lanturn,
Specially defensive Dusknoir,
Specially defensive Mesprit
Which are all 2HKOed by the NP set. The same arguments can be made that Slowking and Lanturn can't hurt Jynx much so Jynx is free to set up while Spdef Dusknoir is non-existent. Uxie and Mesprit are the only ones on the list that commonly carry a move that seriously threatens Jynx (U-turn) but both of them lack recovery.
So using the same arguments that you cannot rely on revenging Jynx, that Jynx will always get an opportunity to set up on a slower Pokemon after a kill, that Jynx 2HKOes the entire tier so you cannot make a free switch, and that foddering something or sending in a special wall makes you liable to a boosting Jynx; what makes Jynx's position in RU so low, yet in NU it is 'broken'?
Before someone decides to be smart and say RU is inconsequential to NU, this is an exercise in helping us narrow down exactly what it is about Jynx that is broken in NU because all the the above arguments so far can be applied to RU. I hope this will help focus the discussion on the precise nature of Jynx's brokenness. (Or is Jynx broken in RU too but just nobody has noticed yet...?)
Specially defensive Slowking,
Specially defensive Uxie,
Specially defensive Lanturn,
Specially defensive Dusknoir,
Specially defensive Mesprit
Which are all 2HKOed by the NP set. The same arguments can be made that Slowking and Lanturn can't hurt Jynx much so Jynx is free to set up while Spdef Dusknoir is non-existent. Uxie and Mesprit are the only ones on the list that commonly carry a move that seriously threatens Jynx (U-turn) but both of them lack recovery.
So using the same arguments that you cannot rely on revenging Jynx, that Jynx will always get an opportunity to set up on a slower Pokemon after a kill, that Jynx 2HKOes the entire tier so you cannot make a free switch, and that foddering something or sending in a special wall makes you liable to a boosting Jynx; what makes Jynx's position in RU so low, yet in NU it is 'broken'?
Before someone decides to be smart and say RU is inconsequential to NU, this is an exercise in helping us narrow down exactly what it is about Jynx that is broken in NU because all the the above arguments so far can be applied to RU. I hope this will help focus the discussion on the precise nature of Jynx's brokenness. (Or is Jynx broken in RU too but just nobody has noticed yet...?)
For one thing, Slowking completely destroys it with a Trick Room or Nasty Plot set, as well as often carrying Fire Blast or Dragon Tail, and considering Slowking is the best Pokemon in RU, thats pretty damn huge. Another thing that should be mentioned is 95 Speed is not as amazing in RU as it is in NU; Entei, Scyther, Manectric, Galvantula, Typhlosion, Scolipede and Sceptile are all incredibly common in RU, making a switch in opportunity, even after a death, much more difficult. Not to mention incredibly dangerous threats like TR NP Cofag and Spiritomb, as well as Munchlax which is probably the best counter to Jynx out of everything (it can run a spread which avoids a 3HKO from both Focus Blast and Psyshock, Restalk to overcome sleep moves).
The everpresence of Slowking, a hard coutner in Munchlax, inability to set up as frequently and the fact it gets beaten by stuff like Spiritomb make Jynx a lot less useful in RU. Its still a great Pokemon and should get more usage there, but the metagames are completely different and play completely differently. Comparing them is really really pointless, as all we have established is Jynx actually gets oportunities to come in in NU, NU is slower in general and RU actually has counters to Jynx. Hard counters with reliable recovery.
So how about we move back to talking about NU?
The everpresence of Slowking, a hard coutner in Munchlax, inability to set up as frequently and the fact it gets beaten by stuff like Spiritomb make Jynx a lot less useful in RU. Its still a great Pokemon and should get more usage there, but the metagames are completely different and play completely differently. Comparing them is really really pointless, as all we have established is Jynx actually gets oportunities to come in in NU, NU is slower in general and RU actually has counters to Jynx. Hard counters with reliable recovery.
So how about we move back to talking about NU?
I'm going to post something soon, but for now, I have a question. Why are we only going after Jynx now? It's never been a problem before.
@Django: Yes offensive Slowking is a hard counter assuming 2 sleep turns. SpDef rettalk Spiritomb is too but that is non-existent. Munchlax is not a hard counter, it has a good chance to be 2HKOed no matter what spread it chooses. Cofag is 2HKOed.
What I'm trying to get at is that the ability to 2HKO the entire tier on Jynx's part is not and should not be used as the deciding factor imo. Neither is Jynx's speed tier any great crime, there are plenty of common things in NU that outspeed and threaten the OHKO on Jynx. I agree on the offensive pressure part. I think that is the deciding factor on keeping Jynx in check. The difference for me is the offensive pressure which NU lacks, which allows Jynx more set up opportunities. But keep in mind that you don't need things that can take 3 hits from Jynx if you can give every member of your team something that hits Jynx back.
The other thing is personal experience. Based on your encounters with Jynx, how helpless have you felt against it or how powerful have you felt with it? Is it really coming in, sleeping, then killing and skeddaling off and coming in for a second time everytime? If it is then that is pretty ridiculously broken, but in my experience that scenario has happened very rarely.
Up to now I wasn't even aware Jynx could 2HKO the tier until I did the calcs yesterday. Jynx has never been an overwhelming problem for any of my teams. Every member of every team I've ever made in NU has a move that can hit Jynx hard, without ever specifically preparing for it. That's different from seeing something like DDShelgon which you know if you can't kill it in 3 moves it's going to sweep you, so you're forced to switch and find an answer that can 2HKO while being able to take an attack. With Jynx you can just click attack because you know its only option is to OHKO you or to sleep you, otherwise it's dead. Jynx just gives you a taste of what hyper offence is like. All of the standard revengers have worked fine as well, I have never felt required to carry a specific Jynx revenger or trapper to get rid of this menace.
In short, I've been making standard teams without giving Jynx any specific consideration other than 'make sure everything can hit it for 25%' and I haven't felt the longing for a specific counter or a burning desire to remove it from the battlefield (just like any sweeper). Its frailty is what's making me reserved about Jynx's 'broken' status. Other people's experiences will vary of course, which is what this discussion is for.
What I'm trying to get at is that the ability to 2HKO the entire tier on Jynx's part is not and should not be used as the deciding factor imo. Neither is Jynx's speed tier any great crime, there are plenty of common things in NU that outspeed and threaten the OHKO on Jynx. I agree on the offensive pressure part. I think that is the deciding factor on keeping Jynx in check. The difference for me is the offensive pressure which NU lacks, which allows Jynx more set up opportunities. But keep in mind that you don't need things that can take 3 hits from Jynx if you can give every member of your team something that hits Jynx back.
The other thing is personal experience. Based on your encounters with Jynx, how helpless have you felt against it or how powerful have you felt with it? Is it really coming in, sleeping, then killing and skeddaling off and coming in for a second time everytime? If it is then that is pretty ridiculously broken, but in my experience that scenario has happened very rarely.
Up to now I wasn't even aware Jynx could 2HKO the tier until I did the calcs yesterday. Jynx has never been an overwhelming problem for any of my teams. Every member of every team I've ever made in NU has a move that can hit Jynx hard, without ever specifically preparing for it. That's different from seeing something like DDShelgon which you know if you can't kill it in 3 moves it's going to sweep you, so you're forced to switch and find an answer that can 2HKO while being able to take an attack. With Jynx you can just click attack because you know its only option is to OHKO you or to sleep you, otherwise it's dead. Jynx just gives you a taste of what hyper offence is like. All of the standard revengers have worked fine as well, I have never felt required to carry a specific Jynx revenger or trapper to get rid of this menace.
In short, I've been making standard teams without giving Jynx any specific consideration other than 'make sure everything can hit it for 25%' and I haven't felt the longing for a specific counter or a burning desire to remove it from the battlefield (just like any sweeper). Its frailty is what's making me reserved about Jynx's 'broken' status. Other people's experiences will vary of course, which is what this discussion is for.
Well actually:
252SpAtk Life Orb Jynx (Neutral) Focus Blast vs 252HP/100SpDef Eviolite Thick Fat Munchlax (+SpDef): 40% - 48% (194 - 230 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
252SpAtk Life Orb Jynx (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/152Def Eviolite Thick Fat Munchlax (Neutral): 33% - 39% (159 - 189 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
A spread of 252 HP / 152 Def / 100 SpDef can take on Jynx the vast majority of the time, and the best chance Jynx has is a crit or hitting 3 Focus Blasts while Munchlax never rolls Body Slam with Sleep Talk. Anyway.
I think people are missing the point here. Jynx is not going to sweep an entire team every match, but thats not what it should be doing. It comes in, puts something to sleep then kills/cripples something. You've essentially just lost 2 Pokemon to Jynx, with no guarantee that Jynx is even hurt in the process. Its not designed to last the entire battle, nor should it. The damage it can do in 2-4 turns is easily enough to turn an entire match on its head.
252SpAtk Life Orb Jynx (Neutral) Focus Blast vs 252HP/100SpDef Eviolite Thick Fat Munchlax (+SpDef): 40% - 48% (194 - 230 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
252SpAtk Life Orb Jynx (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/152Def Eviolite Thick Fat Munchlax (Neutral): 33% - 39% (159 - 189 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
A spread of 252 HP / 152 Def / 100 SpDef can take on Jynx the vast majority of the time, and the best chance Jynx has is a crit or hitting 3 Focus Blasts while Munchlax never rolls Body Slam with Sleep Talk. Anyway.
I think people are missing the point here. Jynx is not going to sweep an entire team every match, but thats not what it should be doing. It comes in, puts something to sleep then kills/cripples something. You've essentially just lost 2 Pokemon to Jynx, with no guarantee that Jynx is even hurt in the process. Its not designed to last the entire battle, nor should it. The damage it can do in 2-4 turns is easily enough to turn an entire match on its head.
It was a problem before, just everyone was so caught up with Gorebyss that Jynx slipped under the radar (**looks at everyone who retardedly overhyped Shell Smash in r1 >________>**)
IMO it's not as much as Jynx slipped under the radar as much as the metagame actually needed Jynx to cover Gorebyss >.> (well, maybe not 'needed' but Jynx was a big part of containing Gorebyss) If we banned Jynx then and there, Gorebyss would have become even better, and possibly broken. (not to mention, no one ran the 3 attacks set back then, and bypassing counters with life orb psyshock was most likely replied with 'lol no one actually does that')
In my opinion, Jynx is not ban-worthy.
While it is a fast, powerful special attacker with a semi-accurate sleep move, its negative attributes keep it in check. The Stealth Rock weakness, lack of bulk, weakness to priority, and shaky accuracy of Lovely Kiss and Focus Blast balance it out. Without these factors to hold it in check, it'd be unstoppable and worthy of a ban, but Jynx is simply incapable of manhandling the entire tier like a broken offensive threat should. Swellow, Braviary, Cinccino, Skuntank, Regirock, Quagsire, Magmortar, Misdreavus-all of these Pokemon can take on Jynx (depending on the set, of course), and any faster Pokemon can easily check it. Jynx's Speed tier is average for NU, maybe a little higher than average, but plenty of Pokemon can outspeed it. Priority absolutely shreds it, and Absol and Skuntank can easily OHKO with Sucker Punch. Gurdurr needs a few boosts to OHKO, but has a guaranteed 2HKO with an Adamant 252 Attack EV spread, and can tank a Life Orb-boosted Ice Beam.
Like Magmortar, handling Jynx with defensive Pokemon isn't always easy. Despite this, there are a plethora of ways to deal with it that are both abundant, and effective. Jynx is a top sweeper, but there's nothing wrong with that. I feel that the NU metagame is equipped to handle Jynx, and it is not banworthy.
Do not ban.
While it is a fast, powerful special attacker with a semi-accurate sleep move, its negative attributes keep it in check. The Stealth Rock weakness, lack of bulk, weakness to priority, and shaky accuracy of Lovely Kiss and Focus Blast balance it out. Without these factors to hold it in check, it'd be unstoppable and worthy of a ban, but Jynx is simply incapable of manhandling the entire tier like a broken offensive threat should. Swellow, Braviary, Cinccino, Skuntank, Regirock, Quagsire, Magmortar, Misdreavus-all of these Pokemon can take on Jynx (depending on the set, of course), and any faster Pokemon can easily check it. Jynx's Speed tier is average for NU, maybe a little higher than average, but plenty of Pokemon can outspeed it. Priority absolutely shreds it, and Absol and Skuntank can easily OHKO with Sucker Punch. Gurdurr needs a few boosts to OHKO, but has a guaranteed 2HKO with an Adamant 252 Attack EV spread, and can tank a Life Orb-boosted Ice Beam.
Like Magmortar, handling Jynx with defensive Pokemon isn't always easy. Despite this, there are a plethora of ways to deal with it that are both abundant, and effective. Jynx is a top sweeper, but there's nothing wrong with that. I feel that the NU metagame is equipped to handle Jynx, and it is not banworthy.
Do not ban.
- Status