Kabutops [4F]+

Eo Ut Mortus

Elodin Smells
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Changes:
* Removed Rain Dance and mentioned it in OO. Kabutops really needs more than just a Life Orb to sweep to its best, and there isn't really enough room on the Swords Dance set.
* Removed Rock Polish; again, Kabutops needs more power than that.
* Made Aqua Tail the primary options over Waterfall.
* Changed EV spread on the Support set. I didn't understand the logic behind the Attack and SDef EVs, and it wasn't specified in the original analysis, but if it had some significance, I'll change it back.
*I've seen Kabutops used as a lead, but haven't had much success with it. If anyone who has could comment on its effectiveness it would be appreciated.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/kabutops

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Aqua Tail / Waterfall
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Aqua Jet / Return
item: Life Orb
nature: Adamant
evs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With Swords Dance to back up those great STAB moves and impressive Attack stat, this version of Kabutops can be a devastating sweeper. Stone Edge and Aqua Tail provide superb coverage, only resisted by Toxicroak, Poliwrath, and Quagsire in UU. In the rain, a Swords Dance boosted Aqua Tail KOes Miltank, Hitmontop, Weezing, and most Registeel all of the time, and Uxie and Umbreon most of the time. Waterfall is a more accurate, less powerful option that carries with it a potential flinch chance. A Swords Dance and Life Orb boosted Aqua Jet is a very potent weapon and can OHKO many fast but frail sweepers, such as Blaziken, Nidoking, Houndoom, and Hitmonlee.</p>

<p>Aqua Jet is not completely necessary in the rain. While, it is a good safeguard to Fighting-type priority users, such as Vacuum Wave Blaziken or Mach Punch Hitmonlee there are several alternative options. Return will 2HKO Poliwrath and Quagsire after a Swords Dance, and X-Scissor. In OU, Brick Break is useful for Empoleon, and X-Scissor for Celebi.</p>

<p>Maximizing Kabutops's Attack stat should be your first priority. Then 186 Speed EVs will enable it to outrun Adamant Honchkrow, whom you can KO with a +2 Aqua Jet with Stealth Rock. The rest of the EVs are poured into HP to help it take hits better. If you are supporting Kabutops with rain, only 144 Speed EVs are necessary, which lets it outspeed Timid Scarf Rotom.</p>

<p>Kabutops reaches its fullest potential only if backed by rain. Rain not only doubles Kabutops's Speed, but it also turns many of its potential 2HKOs into OHKOs. Crobat is an excellent choice for setting up Rain Dance. It scares out troublesome Grass-types such as Roserade and Shaymin and Poliwrath and Toxicroak, the Fighting-types who resist Kabutops's STABs. Uxie also deals with the aforementioned Fighting-types, and alongside Rain Dance, it can further aid Kabutops with Stealth Rock and Yawn. Defensive Water-types such as Quagsire and Slowbro can be tough for Kabutops to break through. Shaymin is a stellar choice to take them on, as it can KO each of them with Seed Flare and because it also lures in Crobat, one of the few Pokemon that Kabutops can set up on. Ludicolo is another good option, as it can also take advantage of any rain supporting Kabutops.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Stone Edge
move 2: Aqua Tail / Waterfall
move 3: Aqua Jet
move 4: Superpower / Return
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
evs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Kabutops's mediocre typing and Speed ensures that it will have a difficult time setting up on most of the metagame. A Choice Band set helps to try and amend these problems. Stone Edge will make Shaymin think twice about switching in, as those without any investment in defense take 72% minimum. Kabutops's main Water-typed attack will score a super effective hit on most Ground-types trying to switch in on Stone Edge. Aqua Jet enables Kabutops to revenge kill faster, weakened Pokemon such as Arcanine and Ninetales.</p>

<p>For its final moveslot, Superpower can be used for Registeel, Poliwrath, and Quagsire in UU, and in Empoleon in OU. Return will hit Poliwrath and Quagsire as well, along with Toxicroak.</p>

<p>Without the ability to switch from a move of normal priority to Aqua Jet, this Kabutops is more susceptible to revenge kills from priority moves than the Swords Dance set. Mach Punch from Hitmonlee and Hitmontop and Vacuum Wave from Blaziken can be handled by Crobat or Uxie. Altaria also deserves mention for being one of the only safe switch-ins to mixed Blaziken, as well as having the ability to deal with Nasty Plot Toxicroak. All three Pokemon can set up Rain Dance, which is once again very beneficial for Kabutops.</p>

[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Stone Edge
move 3: Aqua Jet
move 4: Waterfall / Brick Break / Rapid Spin
item: Lum Berry / Focus Sash
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Adamant
evs: 74 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spd

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Moderate defensive abilities and great attacking power make Kabutops a reliable lead. One of its main selling points is its ability to almost always be able to set up Stealth Rock at the beginning of the match, thanks to the fact that the two most common Taunt leads, Ambipom and Crobat, cannot touch Kabutops with their STAB moves and take heavy damage in return from Kabutops.</p>

<p>Stone Edge is a solid attacking choice that will KO Crobat and Yanmega. A Stone Edge combined with an Aqua Jet will finish off Intimidate Arcanine and Ambipom. Aqua Jet will also handle the occasional Focus Sash lead, as well as give Kabutops the ability to revenge kill some Pokemon like Blaziken later in the game. The final slot is not as important as the first two. Waterfall is a solid STAB choice. It 2HKOs Hippopotas and Nidoqueen, and the occasional flinch will even stop them from setting up Stealth Rock. Brick Break will foil the efforts of dual-screeners, primarily Uxie. Rapid Spin is another option to remove the Stealth Rock that opposing leads may try to set up on you.</p>

<p>Lum Berry will enable you to beat the Yanmega and Roserade that try to put you to sleep on the first turn. It will also allow you to set up Stealth Rock on Uxie without fear of Thunder Wave or Yawn. On the other hand, Focus Sash will ensure that you will survive Roserade's Energy Ball, Hidden Power Grass from Moltres, or a Life Orb Bug Buzz from Yanmega and KO all of them with Stone Edge. It will also provide some security against Arcanine; no longer will you have to worry if it is carrying Hidden Power Grass. Bear in mind that outside of a Stone Edge critical hit, you will not beat it, however, because Arcanine's higher Speed means that it will ExtremeSpeed you before you can Aqua Jet.</p>

<p>Bulky Psychic-types like Uxie and Mespirit are probably the most unfavorable match-ups for Kabutops. Having a Honchkrow or a Drapion waiting in the wings to Pursuit them can be a good idea; just try to switch in on Stealth Rock, Grass Knot, or Psychic rather than Thunder Wave or, in Honchkrow's case, Thunderbolt. These two Pokemon are not fazed by Trick that much, either. These Dark Pokemon can also deal with another problem lead, Roserade. Drapion resists both of Roserade's STABs and can Taunt to prevent Sleep Powder or the setting up of entry hazards. Honchkrow's Insomnia ability enables it to freely switch in on a Sleep Powder, and it poses a more immediate threat with a super effective Drill Peck.</p>

[SET]
name: Flail
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Flail
move 3: Endure / Substitute
move 4: Waterfall
item: Salac Berry
nature: Jolly
evs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This set is less dependant on rain than the others, due to its usage of Salac Berry to remedy Kabutops's middling Speed, and because Kabutops's main attack will not be Waterfall or Aqua Tail, bur rather Flail, which reaches 200 base power when Kabutops is at its lowest health. Another advantage over Kabutops's other sets is that it will have an easier time against normally faster foes when using this set, such as Shaymin and Roserade.</p>

<p>Endure is the recommended option on this set. Residual damage will mess Kabutops up if it decides to use Substitute, and a Kabutops user will enjoy being able to switch into Crobat's Brave Bird or Chansey's Seismic Toss and gain a free turn to Swords Dance.</p>

<p>There aren't many reasons for Kabutops to run anything less than maximum Speed on this set. Kabutops needs 395 Speed to outrun Jolly max Speed Crobat, a number that can only be reached with a Jolly nature.</p>

<p>This set is extremely vulnerable to priority attacks, and all offending users should be removed before attempting a sweep. Slowbro deals with the majority of UU's priority users, sporting a resistance to Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave and easily stopping Arcanine and Azumarill. This variant of Kabutops is also far worse off than any other set if it gets hit with a status move, such as a Thunder Wave from Slowbro or a Toxic from Milotic. Thanks to Natural Cure and immunity to poison, Roserade can switch into either attack and then set up Spikes or Toxic Spikes. As an added bonus, Roserade will also absorb any potentially crippling Toxic Spikes your opponent has laid down.</p>

<p>With Sand Stream immunity, this is perfectly viable in OU battles. Despite the lack of STAB, a full powered Flail is very potent, especially when backed with a Swords Dance. Waterfall covers everything that resists Flail, with the exceptions of Empoleon, Shedinja, Dialga, and Giratina, the latter two of which Kabutops would never see in OU or UU.</p>

<p>A similar set can be pulled off by Kingler, who has the advantages of a higher Attack stat and the ability Hyper Cutter. Make sure when using this set you take full advantage of Kabutops's perks, which are its 100% accurate Water-move, immunity to Sandstorm, and its ability to more easily set up on the omnipresent Crobat.</p>

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Knock Off / Stealth Rock
move 2: Rapid Spin / Stealth Rock
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Aqua Tail / Waterfall
item: Leftovers
nature: Careful
ability: Battle Armor
evs: 152 HP / 104 Atk / 252 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Being weak to the ever popular Close Combat and Earthquake, means that Kabutops' good Defense stat is somewhat wasted. In fact, you are better off specializing in Special Defense and running Sand Stream to capitalize on Kabutops' Ice and x4 Fire resistances, as well as improving its ability to take bulky Surfs.</p>

<p>Kabutops can act as a pretty decent Rapid Spinner, mainly because of surprise factor. Pokemon like Shaymin and Hitmontop are more often than not the first switch-ins to Kabutops rather than Ghost-types like Spiritomb. And once your opponent catches on, you can remove their spin-blocker's Leftovers with a well-timed Knock Off, which combined with Sandstorm support, will significantly decrease its longevity. Stealth Rock is also a support option, but Hippopotas, the only Sand Stream Pokemon in UU has access to it anyway.</p>

<p>This Kabutops should max out its initial Special Defense. Since Sandstorm gives it a 1.5x Special Defense boost, it will gain the most possible stat points this way. 152 HP will ensures that Modest Life Orb Yanmega's Bug Buzz is only a 3HKO even with Stealth Rock up. The remaining EVs are used to buff Kabutops's respectable Attack.</p>

<p>You'll need Hippopotas for permanent sand support, which is essential, as Kabutops's Special Defense is quite lackluster when unboosted. Spikes and Toxic Spikes support have great synergy with Knock Off and Sandstorm. Roserade is well-suited for this role, as it can switch into the Shaymin that Kabutops will lure in, and because it will lure in Crobat that Kabutops can switch in on.</p>

[SET]
name: Mixed
move 1: Surf
move 2: Hidden Power Grass
move 3: Aqua Tail / Waterfall
move 4: Stone Edge / X-Scissor / Rain Dance
item: Life Orb
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Rash
evs: 172 Atk / 252 SpA / 84 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Kabutops' Special Attack isn’t spectacular, but it can be used to take out many common walls with rain support. When Rain Dance is set up, Surf will ravage the many physical walls in the UU metagame. Aggron and Steelix are OHKOed. With Stealth Rock down, Weezing and Regirock are KOed 79% and 74% of the time, respectively. Surf will do a minimum of 71% to Miltank, whilst a normal Life Orb Waterfall would top at 54%, and an Aqua Tail at 60%. This set is even usable in Standard, as Skarmory is KOed 79% of the time with Stealth Rock down.</p>

<p>Hidden Power Grass will always OHKO standard Quagsire and nearly always 2HKO Slowbro. Aqua Tail or Waterfall are here for physical rain-boosted STAB. For the last slot, Stone Edge OHKOes Altaria and Mantine with Stealth Rock, who otherwise wall this set easily. It is also the only way for Kabutops to touch Vileplume and Venusaur. X-Scissor will often 2HKO Meganium and Shaymin, and seriously dents Celebi in OU. Rain Dance is vital to this set and is an option in the last slot, but it is much better if you have support elsewhere.</p>

<p>Maximum Special Attack is needed for many of Kabutops's OHKOs. 84 Speed EVs outspeed Scarfed neutral base 95 Pokémon after Swift Swim. The rest of the EVs are poured into Attack to maximize the damage output from Kabutops's Water-attack.</p>

<p>Rain sweepers that benefit from the elimination of Quagsire work well with this Kabutops, primarily Omastar, Gorebyss, and Qwilfish. Qwilfish can also further weaken a team's defense against rain by luring in and Exploding on Milotic, another major hindrance to rain sweepers. Stealth Rock support is vital to this set, ensuring many OHKOs and 2HKOs. Uxie is, as always, a solid choice for this task, and for the setting up of rain.</p>

[Other Options]
<p>Waterfall is an option over Aqua Tail on any set, though you will need Stealth Rock support to ensure the guaranteed OHKOs under rain on Miltank, Hitmontop, Weezing, and Registeel on the Swords Dance set. The difference in power becomes much more apparent on the Choice Band set. For example, under rain Aqua Tail has a 90% chance (due to accuracy) to 2HKO maximum HP/maximum Defense Impish Intimidate Hitmontop, whereas Waterfall only has a 51% chance, even with the possibility of a flinch. Waterfall's primary advantages are its 20% flinch rate and 100% accuracy. The increased accuracy means that Waterfall is much more reliable on frailer opponents that both Waterfall and Aqua Tail will KO anyway.</p>

<p>A +2 Aqua Tail, even in rain, has only a minuscule chance to OHKO max HP/max Defense Impish Registeel. Superpower is an option as it will always KO the Steel behemoth.</p>

<p>Natural Gift and a Liechi Berry provides an 80 BP Grass attack to maim Quagsire. A Lum Berry can be handy on the Swords Dance set, so Kabutops' sweep isn't ruined by paralysis or burn. This is especially useful against the likes of Dusknoir and Cresselia.</p>

<p>Kabutops can set up Rain Dance itself, but it generally needs the moveslot more than other Rain Dance sweepers such as Gorebyss, Omastar, or Ludicolo.</p>

[EVs]
<p>With the exception of the Support set, you should always max out Attack. For the Swords Dance set, 242 Speed (184 EVs, Adamant) is the recommended minimum to outrun Adamant Honchkrow. Kabutops can also aim for 250 (216 EVs) and 256 (240 EVs) Speed to beat Adamant Absol and Feraligatr, respectively. Kabutops can also run max Speed to tie with other base 80s, such as Gardevoir and Altaria.</p>

<p>If you are supporting Kabutops with rain, 136 Speed EVs is probably the minimum you should invest in. It gives Kabutops a Speed stat of 230, which beats Timid Scarf Roserade in the rain. Other useful investments are 144 EVs, for Timid Scarf Rotom and 168 EVs, for Scarfed +nature base 95s as well as Timid Yanmega with a Speed boost.</p>

<p>For OU, 232 Speed EVs are recommended to initially outrun Modest Heatran and Modest Scarf Gengar after Rain Dance is set up. 254 Speed will beat Modest Heatran, and 280 beats everything from neutral natured Heracross to Lucario and other base 90s. Without rain, 241 Speed outruns neutral natured base 70s and max Speed Magnezone and Abomasnow. 228 Speed (128 EVs) will outrun most Gliscor, and 222 (104 EVs) beats Adamant Tyranitar.</p>

[Team Options]
<p>Kabutops is moderately effective when used by itself, but it really shines in the presence of weather. Rain doubles Kabutops's Speed, which nullifies the threat that faster, lethal Pokemon such as Shaymin, Roserade, Mismagius, and Espeon would otherwise possess. The 1.5x boost to Kabutops's Aqua Tail allows it to overpower tough defensive threats that would otherwise be able to hinder a sweep, such as Registeel and Hitmontop. A defensive Kabutops, while not as lethal, should not be overlooked. It becomes surprisingly sturdy when Sandstorm is in effect, even able to survive some un-STABed Grass Knots, such as that of Slowbro.</p>

<p>Many Pokemon that use Rain Dance have some form of symbiotic relationship with Kabutops. Uxie scares off the problematic Fighting-types and can utilize Yawn and Stealth Rock to further support Kabutops's sweeping capabilities. It also has access to a slightly slow U-Turn, which it can use against faster opponents to allow Kabutops to enter battle without taking any damage from an opposing attack. Crobat staves off the threats of the Grass-types and the aforementioned Fighting-types along with fragile, powerful sweepers such as Blaziken and Mismagius that Kabutops cannot safely set up on. Altaria shares many of these qualities as well, and it also has a pseudo-hazing move in the form of Perish Song to force out common bulky Water-type switch-ins such as Milotic and Slowbro. Grass-types Ludicolo and Roserade can also deal with these Waters, and they lure in special walls such as Chansey that Kabutops has no problem disposing of, as long as it takes care not to switch into status. Ludicolo has Swift Swim to take advantage of the rain as well, and Roserade deals with another one of Kabutops's potential counters, Shaymin.</p>

<p>Hippopotas is the only viable option for sand support on the Support set. With Kabutops's Knocking Off its opponents' Leftovers, residual damage can easily add up. Roserade is a good choice for entry hazards support. It can switch into Pokemon Kabutops has problems with, such as Shaymin and Water-types. Common switch-ins to Roserade such as Crobat and Fire-types are generally no problem for Kabutops, as long as they aren't using a surprise Hidden Power Grass.</p>

<p>Stealth Rock support is helpful in setting up a Kabutops sweep, especially if you are using Waterfall over Aqua Tail. Steelix is not only a good choice for setting it up, but can bait defensive Water-types such as Slowbro and Explode on them, surviving their STAB attacks by virtue of a Passho Berry or heavy Special Defense investment. Other Pokemon that can utilize a similar strategy include Claydol and Regirock.</p>

<p>Kabutops may be hard to stop when it starts going, but thanks to its mediocre defensive typing, it can be hard to find many opportunities for it to switch in and set up. Grass-types are excellent partners to Kabutops. They will generally lure in the likes of Fire, Ice, and Flying-types such as Arcanine, Articuno, and Crobat, who, in most cases, post little threat to Kabutops. Grass/Poison Pokemon, primarily Roserade, resist the majority of Kabutops's weaknesses and are adept at handling Pokemon such as Quagsire, Shaymin, and Poliwrath that Kabutops may struggle to KO.</p>

<p>Kabutops's most common check, Shaymin, is seen with almost any Pokemon. Fast, fragile sweepers such as Blaziken, Ambipom, and Mismagius are commonly seen with it, so Crobat is a good teammate, effectively checking all three of them along with Shaymin. Bulky Pokemon like Regirock and Registeel also appear as well, so it isn't a bad idea to carry a strong Fighting-types such as Blaziken or Hariyama to take advantage of this.</p>

[Opinion]
<p>Kabutops packs quite a punch (or... slash) with double STAB on Water and Rock; a combination resisted by only a handful of Pokémon. Kabutops is looking to switch in on Ice or Fire-type attacks. Normal and Flying attacks are alright too, though they tend to be coupled with threatening Fighting-attacks. If Kabutops gains a free turn in rain, it is almost guaranteed at least one kill. One would do well not to underestimate it.</p>

[Counters]
<p>Under rain, there isn't much that can stop the Swords Dance Kabutops without relying on a low damage roll or a Stone Edge miss. Quagsire and Poliwrath are the best options. They 2HKO Kabutops with Earthquake and Brick Break, respectively, and Kabutops's +2 Stone Edge only musters a 3HKO on max HP/max def Quagsire and Poliwrath. However, both must be wary of Return, which will always 2HKO after a Swords Dance. Slowbro and Shaymin take massive damage from a boosted Stone Edge or X-Scissor, but will survive either attack and OHKO Kabutops with Grass Knot or Seed Flare. Both must be heavily invested in HP and Defense, though.</p>

<p>In the absence of rain, Kabutops is a bit easier to stop. Many Pokemon are no longer KOed by a boosted Aqua Tail or Waterfall. Fighting-types such as Hariyama and Intimidate Hitmontop can take any of Kabutops's assaults and OHKO with powerful STAB attacks. Registeel, Miltank and Uxie can cripple Kabutops with Thunder Wave.</p>

<p>When the skies are clear, lack of Speed will also hurt Kabutops. Toxicroak can switch in on any move, outspeed Kabutops, and KO with Cross Chop. Roserade works in the same manner, although it must take care not to switch in on Stone Edge.</p>

<p>Although Milotic and Venusaur cannot take boosted Stone Edges from the pure physical sets, they deal quite well with the Mixed set.</p>
 
Couple quick things actually, but ill look more into it later.

Milotic CAN take a +2 Boosted Stone Edge, and life orb only gives it a slight KO Chance. Its a more surfire counter than you give it credit for.

Also, I really think Waterfall should be slashed with Aqua Tail in all situations, because the Flinch is always key, and the accuracy is just an added bonus too be honest.
 
Milotic CAN take a +2 Boosted Stone Edge, and life orb only gives it a slight KO Chance. Its a more surfire counter than you give it credit for.

Disagreeing. I dont think milotic is going to be taking the switch in with as much joy as you'd say, especially considering the consequences the following turn (assuming milo doesn't switch into a water attack). I wouldn't be calling it a surefire counter by any stretch.

Though I agree with waterfall slashing, cause accuracy is something that is clearly beneficial even if you don't get the flinch.
 
Milotic CAN take a +2 Boosted Stone Edge, and life orb only gives it a slight KO Chance. Its a more surfire counter than you give it credit for.

+2 LO Stone Edge vs 252/252+ Milotic = 90.86% - 107.36%

That's a 41.03% chance of an OHKO and guaranteed with Stealth Rock. All Milotic can muster in return is 50ish% with Surf or risk Hypnosis. That's a terrible counter and that's why EoM has rightfully only mentioned it with regards to the Mixed set.
 
Like HeY said, Waterfall must be the primary option over Aqua Tail. Waterfall can score an extremely helpful flinch that allows Kabutops to score 2HKOs without getting touched. Aqua Tail, however, has a low accuracy rate which can be really risky for Kabutops, considering that it's quite frail and that miss could end its sweep.
 
Disagreeing. I dont think milotic is going to be taking the switch in with as much joy as you'd say, especially considering the consequences the following turn (assuming milo doesn't switch into a water attack). I wouldn't be calling it a surefire counter by any stretch.

+2 LO Stone Edge vs 252/252+ Milotic = 90.86% - 107.36%

That's a 41.03% chance of an OHKO and guaranteed with Stealth Rock. All Milotic can muster in return is 50ish% with Surf or risk Hypnosis. That's a terrible counter and that's why EoM has rightfully only mentioned it with regards to the Mixed set.

With Leftovers, thats not even a guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock.

Milotic's Surf in the Rain vs 72 / min Kabutops: 73.48% - 87.10%

Thats a 54% chance to OHKO with Life Orb recoil factored in, Guaranteed OHKO with SR.

Not to mention, Rain Dance teams do not always include Stealth Rock (as in its less common than regular teams). You are also forgetting that I said "Milotic is a more surefire counter than you give it credit for", I didnt say it was an 100% surefire counter. I was saying that it is nearly a surfire counter, as in it can switch in on ANY attack except for Swords Dance and KO Kabutops.

I think it should be mentioned along the lines of:

"Milotic can switch into any of Kabutop's attacks safely except for Swords Dance, and even then it survives a +2 Life Orb boosted Stone Edge most of the time. Milotic can threaten Kabutop's with a STAB rain boosted Surf, and even without Special Attack investment it has a good chance to OHKO Kabutops after Life Orb recoil."

At least something close to that. It doesnt "only" counter the mixed set, it does effectively counter the others too.
 
You're assuming Kabutops is going to be used in the Rain which is far from the case because he makes a fantastic wall-breaker without it. How can we honestly reccomend something as a counter if he's OHKO'd 41% of the time WITHOUT Stealth Rock and can only deal significant damage back under a certain weather condition?

Milotic's Surf in the Rain vs 72 / min Kabutops: 73.48% - 87.10%

Thats a 54% chance to OHKO with Life Orb recoil factored in,

100% - 10% = 90%...your damage maxes out at 87%? Elaborate?

And I wouldn't really way something can be more or less surefire than something else. That's like saying a certain shade of black is blacker than another but I digress!
 
Guess I'm the one who can approve Lead Kabutops effectiveness ;)
On my most successful UU team I ran

Kabutops
@ Lum Berry (but I guess Focus Sash is just as viable)
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 74 HP/252 Atk/184 Spd
Adamant nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Aqua Jet
- Stone Edge
- basically a filler, I ran Brick Break as Uxie/Gligar/Bibarel used to own me without it. Waterfall is the other main option, but Rapid Spin could work as well...

This got up the Rocks pretty easily most of the time, defeating Arcanine, Ambipom, Yanmega and the weather leads. The main problems are Roserade and Uxie. Later in the game this set isn't useless as well, being capable of revenging Blaziken and wall Crobat and other normal/flying types.

That's the main Kabutops i'm experienced with, so i can't say anything else :x
 
I believe Lemmiwinks also ran a lead Kabutops, would be nice to get his input here too.
 
"Milotic can switch into any of Kabutop's attacks safely except for Swords Dance, and even then it survives a +2 Life Orb boosted Stone Edge most of the time. Milotic can threaten Kabutop's with a STAB rain boosted Surf, and even without Special Attack investment it has a good chance to OHKO Kabutops after Life Orb recoil."

Umm, why can't Milotic switch in on Swords Dance? It doesn't get hit by it, it's a free switch in so Milotic can deal some heavy damage with Surf.
 
yeah the lead set is definitely very good. it sets up SR a very good amount of the time while taking little damage in the process and the fact that it still hits hard as fuck makes it even better. i like waterfall in the last slot, though i'll admit i haven't tried anything else. dual screens aren't that threatening in uu so i found the consistent power from waterfall (and flinch!) to be very useful
 
You're assuming Kabutops is going to be used in the Rain which is far from the case because he makes a fantastic wall-breaker without it. How can we honestly reccomend something as a counter if he's OHKO'd 41% of the time WITHOUT Stealth Rock and can only deal significant damage back under a certain weather condition?

And I wouldn't really way something can be more or less surefire than something else. That's like saying a certain shade of black is blacker than another but I digress!

Im not saying Kabutops is bad without the rain, im saying he is always used in the rain:
Code:
| Kabutops   |  1. Ludicolo   |    
| Kabutops   |  2. Electrode  |    
| Kabutops   |  3. Honchkrow  |  
| Kabutops   |  4. Qwilfish   |     
| Kabutops   |  5. Shaymin    |    
| Kabutops   |  6. Crobat     |     
| Kabutops   |  7. Mismagius  |  
| Kabutops   |  8. Toxicroak  |

Obviously you have your standard rain team right there.

So its only fair to assume Rain is active for these calcs.

And I dont know what I was thinking (I just got back from my friends grad...heh) when I said it was one Life Orb recoil, but its KOed with SR (much more common on a standard team than Rain) and Life Orb.

"Surefire" was a bad choice of words, "better" counter would be the...well better word choice. Milotic doesnt just counter the mixed set is what im trying to say.
 
yeah the lead set is definitely very good. it sets up SR a very good amount of the time while taking little damage in the process and the fact that it still hits hard as fuck makes it even better.
I definitely agree, you could easily EV it to make Stone Edge + Aqua Jet a KO on Crobat while still maintaining high defense. Something like Stone Edge/ Aqua Jet (Waterfall)/ SR/ Rapid Spin, Knock off, Rain ect. is the common lead I think
 
On Waterfall: Yeah, it is basically equally viable as Aqua Tail. I mentioned it in OO but just didn't slash it for aesthetic reasons. I'll go ahead and change it, though, seeing as it looks like I am implying Waterfall isn't that good an option.

On Milotic:

With Leftovers, thats not even a guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock.

Milotic's Surf in the Rain vs 72 / min Kabutops: 73.48% - 87.10%
If you're running rain, you will be running less speed and more HP.

Milotic's Surf in the Rain vs 112 / min Kabutops: 70.93% - 84.08%

So I calculated all the possible scenarios, including Stone Edge's miss/high crit rate. The results are that Kabutops will beat Milotic ~60% of the time (69.5% of the time if the times where Kabutops is KOed by Life Orb is included). Stealth Rock isn't even up on Milotic's side, while Kabutops is switching in on it. Not a very good counter, and also, if you're up against a Rain team, you're going to lose a good answer to Gorebyss and Omastar. I think a small mention suffices.

I'll get started on the write-up on the lead set. Thanks for all the input.
 
I think Waterfall is simply _better_ than Aqua Tail, because it can't miss. Using moves that can miss is a huge liability obviously, and unless there's a massive power difference (Fire Blast, Meteor Mash) I don't see the point at all in taking the risk.

Can you list the calcs comparing Aqua Tail and Waterfall? I know Aqua Tail just edges out Waterfall to OHKO Pokémon X, Y, and Z, but I want to know how much bang I'm getting in exchange for not having a 100% accurate powerful STAB.
 
I think Waterfall is simply _better_ than Aqua Tail, because it can't miss. Using moves that can miss is a huge liability obviously, and unless there's a massive power difference (Fire Blast, Meteor Mash) I don't see the point at all in taking the risk.

Can you list the calcs comparing Aqua Tail and Waterfall? I know Aqua Tail just edges out Waterfall to OHKO Pokémon X, Y, and Z, but I want to know how much bang I'm getting in exchange for not having a 100% accurate powerful STAB.

All calculations are post Swords Dance and under Rain. All opponents have Leftovers. Accuracy is factored in for Aqua Tail, and flinch for Waterfall.

252/252 Impish Hitmontop (post-Intimidate)

Aqua Tail: 105.92% - 124.67%
Waterfall: 93.75% - 110.53% (67.18% chance of an OHKO)

252/0 Impish Registeel (Most common version last month)

Aqua Tail: 100.55% - 118.68%
Waterfall: 89.84% - 105.77% (46.67% chance of an OHKO)

252/88 Impish Registeel (Standard set on Smogon Analysis)

Aqua Tail: 94.78% - 111.54% (53.07% chance of an OHKO)
Waterfall: 84.07% - 99.18% (20% chance of an OHKO)

252/252 Bold Uxie

Aqua Tail: 97.46% - 114.69% (67.04% chance of an OHKO without Stealth Rock, 90% chance with Stealth Rock)
Waterfall: 86.44% - 101.98% (32.3% chance of an OHKO without Stealth Rock, 56.92% chance with Stealth Rock)

252/252 Impish Umbreon:

Aqua Tail: 98.22% - 115.74% (78.46 chance of an OHKO without Stealth Rock, 90% chance with Stealth Rock)
Waterfall: 87.56% - 103.05% (32.3% chance of an OHKO without Stealth Rock, 63.08% chance with Stealth Rock)

252/252 Bold Weezing

Aqua Tail: 108.98% - 128.74%
Waterfall: 97.31% - 114.97% (83.59% chance of an OHKO without Stealth Rock, 100% chance of an OHKO with Stealth Rock)

252/252 Impish Miltank

Aqua Tail: 101.52% - 119.80%
Waterfall: 90.61% - 106.60% (52.82% chance of an OHKO without Stealth Rock, 79.49% chance with Stealth Rock)

252/252 Bold Spiritomb

Aqua Tail: 128.62% - 151.97%
Waterfall: 114.80% - 135.53%

EDIT:
-Changed Waterfall's comments in OO to more highlight its advantages over Aqua Tail.
-Added lead set.
 
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