Killing Ferrothorn opens up your team for the Mega Kanga user. And it's not sucide either, since Kanga does not die. It's weakened, yes, but it still living and ready to wreak havoc, unless you have a revenge killer. And if you don't, you just lose.
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Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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Funny, considering that 75%~ of the laderrers are...crappy, to say the least. Even funnier, all these arguments are brought up after testing them (hell, the "preview" set's moves were tested on what they hit), so yeah. You actually DO need to read.
oh god we're in for a ride.
please read all the posts in the thread before you post yourself. I -really- don't want to see the same tired posts over and over like I did in the Gengarite thread.
edit: I'd like actual arguments too and not just "lol it's so broken" I left rey's because he was first though.
You think no one prepares for the thing? Everyone prepares for this thing, it's just that the things we use to do so are all shaky. There are no one hundred percent counters to Kanga, and even when you kill it, it probably took down at least two pokemon with it. And at that point, the gaping hole it left in your team probably means you lose.
This contributes nothing to the conversation. Read the posts, make a unique argument or if you don't have one, like the comments you agree with so that people see they're popular opinions.
As it is you look like someone who isn't very good at the meta but likes using Kanga and has only created an account here in a futile effort to not have to adapt to life without a broken pokemon on your team.
You do not. That's not to say that you don't have to think outside of the box. For hard counters, what comes to mind are Keldeo (a more defensive spread than typical), Terrakion, Cobalion, Dusclops, Cofagrigus (That one would be beautiful- WoW, Trick Room, base 200 Def., Mummy), Ferrothorn (It can't OHKO it with Fire Punch, and assuming it 2HKOs, it will be at such low health that any sort of priority could end it), and Quagsire. After that, it depends on what coverage move it's packing. Crunch prevents Slowbro, Jellicent, Aegislash, and Gourgeist come in safely. Fire Punch prevents Skarmory, Forretress, Aegislash, and Gourgeist come in with impunity. There are probably others, but most sweepers don't have more than 2-3 hard counters anyways.
First of all, NO POKEMON OTHER THAN SABLEYE AND EVIOLITE DUSCLOPS CAN "COUNTER IT". Second, Jolly MegaKanga running PUP/SuckerPunch/Crunch/Return is the best set, you have no reason to run things like Fake Out on a setup sweeper. Thirdly, there's literally no pokemon like MegaKanga in the metagame. Breaks substitutes, is fast, powerful and bulky enough to get things done. Also, I don't think you know that the last thing you said is what we call "overcentralizing" and that's one of the reasons pokemons are banned.
I'm sorry to say this, but LAST PAGE I JUST MADE THE CALCS AND NO, QUAGSIRE DOESN'T COUNTER MEGAKANGA. And what you're naming are not counters, are CHECKS, things you have to do sacrificial rites in order to get healthy and ready to revenge kill. Ferrothorn doesn't kill, what you're saying is that Ferrothorn KILLS WITH ANOTHER PRIORITY USER. That's already two pokemons. And what's the deal with Mummy? I just switch out, it's not like MegaKanga cannot find opportunities to setup.
I don't know about you, but Physically Defensive Volcarona is probably the best set for Volcarona. However, that's neither here nor there. The main reason I brought it up is that it's my other main sweeper, and thus it was the first thing that came to mind, and I also happened to know good counters for. As far as sweepers go, they are somewhat similar though- Not difficult to counter before getting setup, but next to impossible to stop once set up. They are also both able to find ample opportunities to setup.
The 1900s on Nintendo's 3v3 singles ladder before rated went down were almost all either one of 3 teams:
1. Kangaskhan and 2 Kangaskhan counters
2. 2 setups for Kangaskhan (Eject Button Screens Klefki / Baton Passer / Galvantula) and Kangaskhan
3. 3 Kangaskhan counters
It's amazingly centralizing and I can't imagine it being much different in Showdown. It doesn't make for an interesting meta when it stifles creativity to play around.
1. Kangaskhan and 2 Kangaskhan counters
2. 2 setups for Kangaskhan (Eject Button Screens Klefki / Baton Passer / Galvantula) and Kangaskhan
3. 3 Kangaskhan counters
It's amazingly centralizing and I can't imagine it being much different in Showdown. It doesn't make for an interesting meta when it stifles creativity to play around.
I do.
Honestly, broken is a subjective term, and really doesn't help with discussion. Stall teams might think that Genesect and Rotom-W are broken because Volt-Turn counters their strategy. HO might think that Toxic Stall Gliscor is broken. It really depends on the player's team and playstyle as to what's "broken". It's just not a good term to decide a ban on, and is more or less just a buzzword.
Stone RG
Megas are broke
Let me rephrase it, Does anybody actually think the Kangashkanite helps at building a balanced metagame?
Except you have to dedicate an entire slot to just counter Mega Kang which serves not a whole lot of use except to get rid of mega kang. You can use a sableye on your team but there are better pokemon in ou. There is no real natural check to mega kang in ou and although you can defeat Mega Kang it usually will leave you at a disadvantage. She is not invincible but is way to good to be ou with just her rough power.
I believe it's rather obvious that people are only using Kanga for her overwhelming power. People are tier-whoring (fighting game term for choosing the best characters because they are the best) so that they can crush opponents even after making a major mistake or misread. I find it very petty trying to defend a clearly overpowered mon that you obviously could care less about. Seriously, I've never seen a comment along the lines of "I like Kangaskahn or Kangaskhan is such a cool mon." It's always "Kangaskhan is so freaking strong" or "Kanga just shits on everyone."
Many of the anti-ban arguments seem to be going off of the idea that it's a 1-vs-1 situation. Is Sableye really a counter? If the MKhan player predicts the switch (easy to do, as Sableye's niche pretty much consists of "countering" MKhan and not much else), Sableye takes damage, and then Sableye burns Khan, maybe goes down, but at least MKhan is crippled, right? Guess again. Pair MKhan up with a fire type like Heatran, Talonflame, or pretty much anything that doesn't give a damn about a burn and switch it in whenever Sableye comes in and you're good.
Skarm, Ferro and Chomp are in the same boat. Skarm and Ferro barely manage vs Khan since it can run Fire Punch, which completely screws them over, and even without FP Khan still dishes out heavy damage at +2, so in the end the best Skarm can manage is to phaze a Khan at half its health out, while Skarm himself is forced to Roost the next turn or it dies. Ferrothorn can't really do much more to Khan than hurt it with barbs + helmet and its STABs, which is not enough to KO (not to mention Khan can bypass residual damage if she runs EQ) and Chomp has no fucking business running Rocky Helmet, the fact that it does is basically overcentralization at its best. Mandibuzz has been mentioned too, but she doesn't resist Return and therefor gets pummeled.
It is true that there are a few solid checks out there, such as Terrakion, Keldeo (can't OHKO when it carries lefties/scarf), Infernape (can't safely switch in so something has to die beforehand and it's not even a guaranteed OHKO lol) and MegaLucario (if it hasn't MegaEvolved before it's in a 50/50 situation), but all of these can be easily dealt with through team support. Also, mind how these are all checks; there is NOTHING in the meta that can wall MKangha, something that nothing else can say.
Now I just noticed this juicy little anti-ban post and I'm going to reply on it bc why not.
Sableye: Extremely niche, rather frail before he gets the burn off so can't switch in safely.
Quagsire: Possibly even more niche than Sableye and even less common. Also doesn't tank that Return nearly as well as you'd like it to; once it comes in it'll probably be busy Recovering the damage done by Return until it runs out of Recovers, so barely even a counter at all.
Ferrothorn: Gets annihilated by Fire Punch and EQ versions of Khan, has to run Rocky Helmet over lefties in order to succeed, it tends to be kamikaze to counter Kanga with Ferro, as they both die in the process.
Skarmory: In the same boat as Ferro, except Skarm dishes out less damage thanks to a lack of Rocky Helmet and its best way to "counter" Khan is by phazing it out, which is hardly countering it at all.
M-Lucario: More of a check than a counter as it can't stomach Khan's attacks, and like I said, before Mevo it's in kind of a 50/50 situation.
Mach punch users: It's been calced that LO Adamant Technician Breloom can't OHKO with Mach Punch. That's not even a check.
Ghost types: Crunch murders pretty much every single one of them, so the best they can do is W-o-W and die.
2: It doesn't need Drain Punch in order to destroy the tier.
3: The support set is not supposed to be a sweeper but a supporter (thank you for stating the obvious fagtron), and in that regard it's fantastic too (a Wish Passer that can also 2HKO a good 80% of the tier? Yes please!), so don't just say that we shouldn't count it just because it fulfills an entirely different niche than the sweeping set, because that is exactly why we SHOULD count it. (On a side note, uninvested Crunch still deals with most ghosts fairly well so there ya go)
4: Kangha is bulky enough to survive almost all the priority attacks the tier has to offer.
5: Good luck trying to status it without dying in the process.
tl;dr BAN THIS SHIT RN
Skarm, Ferro and Chomp are in the same boat. Skarm and Ferro barely manage vs Khan since it can run Fire Punch, which completely screws them over, and even without FP Khan still dishes out heavy damage at +2, so in the end the best Skarm can manage is to phaze a Khan at half its health out, while Skarm himself is forced to Roost the next turn or it dies. Ferrothorn can't really do much more to Khan than hurt it with barbs + helmet and its STABs, which is not enough to KO (not to mention Khan can bypass residual damage if she runs EQ) and Chomp has no fucking business running Rocky Helmet, the fact that it does is basically overcentralization at its best. Mandibuzz has been mentioned too, but she doesn't resist Return and therefor gets pummeled.
It is true that there are a few solid checks out there, such as Terrakion, Keldeo (can't OHKO when it carries lefties/scarf), Infernape (can't safely switch in so something has to die beforehand and it's not even a guaranteed OHKO lol) and MegaLucario (if it hasn't MegaEvolved before it's in a 50/50 situation), but all of these can be easily dealt with through team support. Also, mind how these are all checks; there is NOTHING in the meta that can wall MKangha, something that nothing else can say.
Now I just noticed this juicy little anti-ban post and I'm going to reply on it bc why not.
I believe it's been calced and it turns out that Keldeo without Ebelt or Specs can't OHKO, like I said, so rougly 1/3 of all Keldeo are sure to KO Kangha. In all other cases, Kangha just goes "lol" and kills it. Also, remember that this is a check, not a counter, as it can't just come in on a PuP or a Return and say that it's been a fun experience.
The difference between a Talonflame/Char-X (MegaLuke and Aegislash are more often seen going special or mixed tbh so not even counting them) and a Mkhan is that they both have flaws that MKhan doesn't have: Talonflame is pretty frail, has an underwhelming attack stat, is 4x weak to SR and eventually kills itself due to recoil in case you didn't pack a counter for it (and there's plenty of Talonflame counters, too. The same can't be said for MKhan, really). Charizard-X doesn't have priority, is countered by two common OU threats, namely Azumarill and Heatran (Sableye is not much of a threat in OU to begin with, let alone a common one, and it can't switch in on MKhan as easily as Azu and Tran can switch in on Zard), his most viable set only boosts his attack by +1 and he also has a painful SR weakness (especially before Mega evolution). Let's not forget that MKhan's supposed "counters" (again, Skarm and Ferro aren't true counters as they tend to die in the process of "countering" Khan) are vastly different coutners than the counters for common physical threats in OU (ever saw a Sableye walling a Charizard-X? Neither did I.)[/quote]
Volcarona's counter is Heatran, an extremely common Pokemon in OU that does way more than just walling one or two specific threats. Volcarona also dies really easily when there's SR on the field. Here's your list of Pokemon that counter MKhan and I'll explain why they all suck in one way or another.
Sableye: Extremely niche, rather frail before he gets the burn off so can't switch in safely.
Quagsire: Possibly even more niche than Sableye and even less common. Also doesn't tank that Return nearly as well as you'd like it to; once it comes in it'll probably be busy Recovering the damage done by Return until it runs out of Recovers, so barely even a counter at all.
Ferrothorn: Gets annihilated by Fire Punch and EQ versions of Khan, has to run Rocky Helmet over lefties in order to succeed, it tends to be kamikaze to counter Kanga with Ferro, as they both die in the process.
Skarmory: In the same boat as Ferro, except Skarm dishes out less damage thanks to a lack of Rocky Helmet and its best way to "counter" Khan is by phazing it out, which is hardly countering it at all.
M-Lucario: More of a check than a counter as it can't stomach Khan's attacks, and like I said, before Mevo it's in kind of a 50/50 situation.
Mach punch users: It's been calced that LO Adamant Technician Breloom can't OHKO with Mach Punch. That's not even a check.
Ghost types: Crunch murders pretty much every single one of them, so the best they can do is W-o-W and die.
1: Kangaskhan usually doesn't have to switch in more than once in order to destroy half your team or more.
2: It doesn't need Drain Punch in order to destroy the tier.
3: The support set is not supposed to be a sweeper but a supporter (thank you for stating the obvious fagtron), and in that regard it's fantastic too (a Wish Passer that can also 2HKO a good 80% of the tier? Yes please!), so don't just say that we shouldn't count it just because it fulfills an entirely different niche than the sweeping set, because that is exactly why we SHOULD count it. (On a side note, uninvested Crunch still deals with most ghosts fairly well so there ya go)
4: Kangha is bulky enough to survive almost all the priority attacks the tier has to offer.
5: Good luck trying to status it without dying in the process.
In closing, Kanga is beyond amazing and it combines the best of everything physical sweeping has to offer. A quickban seems like the only good solution for something that has been regarded so obviously broken by so many people, a suspect test would be a waste of time and effort since everything's been pretty one-sided in this discussion thus far. It has the ability to sweep the meta with little to no effort (even the biggest noobs on the ladder can use it ffs), and therefor it definitely fits the qualification for an Uber. It is, in fact, uncounterable. It can utilize its natural bulk to live long enough while still being able to sweep, while going defensive can surprise the opponent and breaks walls down with ease.
tl;dr BAN THIS SHIT RN
Okay so when I saw Mega Kanghaskhan was being tested, I was actually a little surprised. I've been playing bank OU much more recently, and I 've seen it, but it never stood out.
Looking back, I realize that the big reason why I won those games were because I have a well built team, and I'm a far better player than those who are using it (I'm not that high on the ladder as I haven't really played THAT much). I now realize that if played right, Kanghaskhan gives HUGE advantage over the opponent by using it. Fake out does a shit ton, and the fact that it can easily boost and have good coverage with power-up punch and sucker punch is crazy. The fact that it is asking for ghosts to switch in only to have sucker punch that hits twice, and therefore through subs (gengar), is crazy. Khanghaskhan can come in on a free switch vs gengar and beat it, through substitute. That just doesn't seem right to me. So, although I overlooked it, thinking back to the battles I've had versus it, it was (and is) ridiculous if only used by a competent battler, and I feel that's why I overlooked it, becuase i wasn't playing competent battlers
It only needs power-up punch/return/sucker punch, and is then free to run Fake out. After +2 there is little that can wall/revenge it due to its good bulk and insane attack (free choice band distributed over two hits), and that's, simply put, why it's broken.
This thread is almost as horrible as Mega-Kangaskhan is towards the OU metagame.
Looking back, I realize that the big reason why I won those games were because I have a well built team, and I'm a far better player than those who are using it (I'm not that high on the ladder as I haven't really played THAT much). I now realize that if played right, Kanghaskhan gives HUGE advantage over the opponent by using it. Fake out does a shit ton, and the fact that it can easily boost and have good coverage with power-up punch and sucker punch is crazy. The fact that it is asking for ghosts to switch in only to have sucker punch that hits twice, and therefore through subs (gengar), is crazy. Khanghaskhan can come in on a free switch vs gengar and beat it, through substitute. That just doesn't seem right to me. So, although I overlooked it, thinking back to the battles I've had versus it, it was (and is) ridiculous if only used by a competent battler, and I feel that's why I overlooked it, becuase i wasn't playing competent battlers
It only needs power-up punch/return/sucker punch, and is then free to run Fake out. After +2 there is little that can wall/revenge it due to its good bulk and insane attack (free choice band distributed over two hits), and that's, simply put, why it's broken.
This thread is almost as horrible as Mega-Kangaskhan is towards the OU metagame.
Ah, you have me there. I hadn't done any calcs against Quaggy, but I assumed that it would be able to tank it. Scald wouldn't be reliable enough to neuter Kanga, so it doesn't counter as I thought it did.
I'm just going to keep it simple, I think it should be Ubers.
From what I have experienced with, and against, it. It it used enough to qualify for OU, but it's threat level puts it, in my opinion, in uber. It possesses a large move pool to cover the 2 biggest threats against it. Ghost (is a threat by being immune to all of its STAB moves) is covered by sucker punch. And fighting types may be killed by any of its moves, if not it is put at a level where it can easily be revenge killed. Rock and steel resist this, but are hit hard by power-up punch.
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcarona: 356-420 (95.1 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
With full investment, Talonflame still manages to get a one hit ko, without choice band. Talonflame is way too common for physically defensive to be viable. Not to mention your sp.atk is too weak too kill anything, allowing you to easily be revenged killed, since you no longer hit so extremely hard.
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 192-228 (54.7 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 357-420 (127 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Before Mega-Evolution, Kangaskhan outspeeds and OHKOs with Earthquake. Mega Lucario Mach Punch fails to KO Mega-Khan.
I don't think Luke get's Mach Punch anyway, it gets Bullet punch, vacuum wave and Extremespeed.
WE'RE JUST GOING IN GODAMN CIRCLES! The Ferrothorn argument has been refuted like, 6 times on the last 3 pages. I'm done!
I'll post it ONE MORE TIME IN ORDER TO END IT:
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 153-180 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 78-93 (22.1 - 26.4%)
Sum up that damage and Ferrothorn is done. MegaKanga lives, badly damaged, but lives.
And if it chooses to run Earthquake,
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 189-223 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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