Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

[KztxL7]

-snip-

Mega Khan's Normal Typing does not hinder it. If anything it helps it avoid the Shadow Sneak Priority.

Most of the moves you listed are crap and people don't even use it. PuP/Crunch/Return/Sucker Punch is it's best set as it has the best coverage. Some sub out Crunch with EQ.

MKhan does not have counters. Nothing can reliably switch into it and anything that can is banking on immunity (Ghosts) and hell of prediction.

No one cares how well it does in Ubers. Because Ubers is a Banlist first!

 

[TKGriffiths]

I am not very experienced in the specifics of Pokemon and Damage Calculation. So I cannot do much in the way of that.

I appreciate you want to contribute but that post was a waste of your time. The technical data is available on the internet for all to see so filling a post with that is pointless, and you don't yet have enough experience to do any kind of serious analysis. It might even get deleted because it contributed nothing useful and takes up a massive amount of space.

The fact is that Mega Kangaskan has no 100% reliable counters (not even Sableye because it relies on inaccurate will-o-wisp) and has the bulk and typing to take almost any hit. I feel it is worthy of a ban.

 

[RufflesPro]

I've been thinking about how to properly answer all of the "if we ban Mega Kangaskhan we'll ban all of the Megas and ruin the sixth generation!" posts. I think I've finally got it.

We all know at this point that much of Game Freak's balancing is done with double battles in mind - it is, after all, their VGC format. As someone who primarily plays Smogon's Doubles format (main difference being 6v6 instead of 4v4 and having some cool stuff unbanned), I've seen a fair few of these Mega Evolutions in play in a more natural environment and think that they've been handled marvelously well. They embrace the original idea behind Mega Evolution - powerful Pokemon that sacrifice their item slot for an incredibly powerful position on the team only they can hold. They're quite simply amazing - pretty much every single one of them (lol Alakazam). BUT they're all balanced reasonably well. With a few exceptions, they are all primarily single-target Pokemon that are fairly easy to cripple and remove from the match with some smart play - even Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Gengar fall victims to this. The ones that escape single-target syndrome (Gardevoir, Abomasnow, ZardY) are potent threats as well, but are limited by their inability to avoid things like Prankster Thunder Wave, vulnerability to Wide Guard, and being threatened by some of the top Pokemon in the 2013 metagame like Cresselia, Thundurus-I, and Tyranitar.

In singles, the dynamic changes. There are no longer four Pokemon on the field in an elaborate dance for victory. Now it's a one on one slugfest. Even the worst Megas in Doubles suddenly only have to worry about the Pokemon in front of them, and not its partner and their partner. And when there's only one thing in front of them, some of these things absolutely wreak havoc. Kangaskhan now no longer has to rely on a partner to take out that Landorus-T which will come in effortlessly otherwise and weaken it. Lucario no longer has to worry about literally anything that uses Earthquake. There's so much less for them to deal with, and already powerful Pokemon become even stronger (again, lol Alakazam). This is what makes them so powerful in OU - the environment they were balanced for simply does not exist, and in this environment where many of the forms of passive countering that they fear don't exist, they are able to wreak havoc.

Seconding this, those are words of wisdom, GF doesn't care about singles, they would ban Blaziken otherwise (pretty sure they would) the fact that you can have 2 pokemons pairing on Mega Kangaskhan to defeat it ASAP is better than only relying on 1 pokemon.

 

[preserve]

If you think you can check MK with WoW, wait until you go up against Facade MK. Good in doubles too if you purposefully paralyze your own MK and run a trick room team.

Wilo wisp still halves its attack basically negating the doubling power of facade.

As for mega kangaskhan, its bet's three moves to run are power up punch, return, and sucker punch. This leads one move and this one move determines how successful it would be. To me Power up punch, return, sucker punch, and fire punch is the best set as this set takes out most of the opponents counters if it would be using other moves like earthquake, crunch or fake out. Rocky helmet or rough skin, iron barbs in combination with rocky helmet is also great as it severely cripples Kangaskhan because of the parential bond. People will argue that relying on one item or ability to take out one pokemon proves that it's broken. That may be so, but the said items/ abilities were still pretty good even before mega kangaskhan.

Faster priority users or priority users that can take a sucker punch can take out weakened mega kangaskhan such as talonflame or azumarill and not to mention extremespeed if we are including pokebank OU. And weakening mega kangaskhan is not that hard to do because most people will be using power up punch on the first move making it easier to revenge kill.

And there are some decent checks to it as well which includes faster fighting type moves like terrakion, infernape, and especially jolly/timid mega lucario. Even though, conkeldurr is slower than mega kangaskhan it can still use mach punch to take it out. Same goes with breloom.

I'll agree that mega kangaskhan is a huge threat, but I still think it can be taken care of if you're careful.

 

[Tomiix]

I'm telling you right now. I said it in my previous post.

Kanga is going to be banned.
I am bummed, because I like it a lot, both fighting it, and when I use it on my team.

However, I know 100% that after that, the next poke coming in, is going to be Mega Lucario, with its Adaptability. Then all of you people who were against Mega Kang, are gonna be against Mega Lucario.

In time, Mega Lucario is going to be banned.

After that, we are going to chill for a while, and everyone is going to scramble to find the next Mega Kang/Lucario, and it will probably end up being Mega- Mawile or mega pinsir.

This is gonna be a never ending cycle of eliminating the Megas, until you are left with nothing to show for the new mechanics of Gen VI.

Might as well just import all of the new pokemon into Gen5 OU, ban Megas, and call it a day.

The game has Mega-Evolved, and Smogon needs to also! Complex bans were avoided? Well, it's become a more complex game. GROW. No need to send cool pokemon back to the land of CI(Completely Ignored) just because of one move that is the source of all of these +2 calculations and fear mongering. I have never faced a Kanga at +0 and said to myself, OH well, game over!

Pokemon that were once completely ignored got a new lease on life with Mega Stones. If one move means a pokemon can never be used again, ban the move dammit, don't ban the pokemon that is otherwise viable in OU. You have banned certain abilities on Pokemon, why can't you ban certain moves? It's not hard to program it in the simulator, and it's not like we are gonna suddenly have 100 pokemon we have to ban moves on.

Think forward!

I agree with this in a way after reading back a bit.

I totally agree that we are trying way to hard to make Gen 6 like Gen 5, and that this new mechanic is slowly going to be taken out. It is a shame indeed, but I have no idea how people will react, since the majority want a B/W type of meta. It's a shame, because the B/W meta is... and I don't mean to make a pun, but its so Black and White! It's so bland and predicatable! But, alas, I am no expert.

 

[KztxL7]

No. We're not trying for a Gen 5 Meta. We're removing the most ridiculous centralizing effects from the game for a more healthy metagame.

The fact that people are putting Rocky Helmets on Garchomp is proof that something like this is downright stupid.

Wilo wisp still halves its attack basically negating the doubling power of facade.

As for mega kangaskhan, its bet's three moves to run are power up punch, return, and sucker punch. This leads one move and this one move determines how successful it would be. To me Power up punch, return, sucker punch, and fire punch is the best set as this set takes out most of the opponents counters if it would be using other moves like earthquake, crunch or fake out. Rocky helmet or rough skin, iron barbs in combination with rocky helmet is also great as it severely cripples Kangaskhan because of the parential bond. People will argue that relying on one item or ability to take out one pokemon proves that it's broken. That may be so, but the said items/ abilities were still pretty good even before mega kangaskhan.

Faster priority users or priority users that can take a sucker punch can take out weakened mega kangaskhan such as talonflame or azumarill and not to mention extremespeed if we are including pokebank OU. And weakening mega kangaskhan is not that hard to do because most people will be using power up punch on the first move making it easier to revenge kill.

And there are some decent checks to it as well which includes faster fighting type moves like terrakion, infernape, and especially jolly/timid mega lucario. Even though, conkeldurr is slower than mega kangaskhan it can still use mach punch to take it out. Same goes with breloom.

I'll agree that mega kangaskhan is a huge threat, but I still think it can be taken care of if you're careful.

The fact that you have to throw a sacrifice with Rocky Helmet at MKhan just to finish it off with a Priority use like Talonflame is very bad.

 

[False Sense]

This discussion is just going in circles. How much longer until Mega Kangaskhan gets banned?

 

[Uvood]

I agree with this in a way after reading back a bit.

I totally agree that we are trying way to hard to make Gen 6 like Gen 5, and that this new mechanic is slowly going to be taken out. It is a shame indeed, but I have no idea how people will react, since the majority want a B/W type of meta. It's a shame, because the B/W meta is... and I don't mean to make a pun, but its so Black and White! It's so bland and predicatable! But, alas, I am no expert.

At the most, after Kanga, only Mega Pinsir and Mega Lucario might be OP, no one is considering banning any other megas, there will be no slippery slope!

 

[Tomiix]

one - nobody cares how well she'll do in ubers. ubers is a banlist first, tier second. it just happens to be functional as a tier.
two - kangaskhan is really quite nice in ubers. she has higher attack than arceus, while still having powerful priority, a cb that doesn't lock you in as an ability, can break subs, has a swords dance that does decent damage, and isn't susceptible to taunt, and has a nice movepool, though arceus is faster and bulkier. depends what you want/need.

Mega Khan's Normal Typing does not hinder it. If anything it helps it avoid the Shadow Sneak Priority.

Most of the moves you listed are crap and people don't even use it. PuP/Crunch/Return/Sucker Punch is it's best set as it has the best coverage. Some sub out Crunch with EQ.

MKhan does not have counters. Nothing can reliably switch into it and anything that can is banking on immunity (Ghosts) and hell of prediction.

No one cares how well it does in Ubers. Because Ubers is a Banlist first!

I appreciate you want to contribute but that post was a waste of your time. The technical data is available on the internet for all to see so filling a post with that is pointless, and you don't yet have enough experience to do any kind of serious analysis. It might even get deleted because it contributed nothing useful and takes up a massive amount of space.

The fact is that Mega Kangaskan has no 100% reliable counters (not even Sableye because it relies on inaccurate will-o-wisp) and has the bulk and typing to take almost any hit. I feel it is worthy of a ban.

I wasn't aware ubers was a banlist first, from the looks of it it seems like a legitimate tier.

I would of also made my post shorter, but spoilers weren't working for me.

Also when it comes to the moves I listed, I was just recounting moves with stab.

 

[Tachnicla]

I agree with this in a way after reading back a bit.

I totally agree that we are trying way to hard to make Gen 6 like Gen 5, and that this new mechanic is slowly going to be taken out. It is a shame indeed, but I have no idea how people will react, since the majority want a B/W type of meta. It's a shame, because the B/W meta is... and I don't mean to make a pun, but its so Black and White! It's so bland and predicatable! But, alas, I am no expert.

Could people go lament on this somewhere else? This thread was over ages ago, and it's also called: "Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion" for a reason.

It's like we need a separate thread with all of the calcs, what the Uber tier is, what the difference between a check and counter is, and the criteria to be banned...

 

[Tomiix]

Could people go lament on this somewhere else? This thread was over ages ago, and it's also called: "Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion" for a reason.

It's like we need a separate thread with all of the calcs, what the Uber tier is, what the difference between a check and counter is, and the criteria to be banned...

I feel like if one ban brings up these legitimate concerns, they should be discussed just the same, and I would love to see other people who can have an opinion on this make one.

 

[TheTraininator]

Honestly, the only Megas I find broken (besides Metwo and Blaziken, who are broken to begin with,) are Gengar and Kang. People bring up Lucario and I can see why, but I think it's still manageable, though my opinion may change on that. Even with those taken out, we have a ton of awesome Megas to choose from, so I hight doubt we'll see the removal of Megas in standard play, (in fact, we may see quite a few in UU, like Gardevoir, Banette, Houndoom, Manetric, and Abomasnow, to name a few.)

 

[TheTraininator]

I feel like if one ban brings up these legitimate concerns, they should be discussed just the same, and I would love to see other people who can have an opinion on this make one.

It's one thing to discuss them, it's another thing to have to explain them OVER and OVER again to people who come here not knowing what they mean yet arguing nonetheless. If people are being short with you, it's just because we're all feeling like broken records at this point, don't take it too personally.

 

[Dakar]

Are you serious? And let a majority of teams BE FORCED to prepare a Blaziken counter before it gets an easy sweep? That is like replacing a hydrogen bomb with an atomic bomb.

I'm sure it's already been said, but an H-bomb is factors greater in force than an atomic bomb.

 

[Tachnicla]

I feel like if one ban brings up these legitimate concerns, they should be discussed just the same, and I would love to see other people who can have an opinion on this make one.

No, you're just expressing your discontent which does not only concern Mega-Kangaskhan but Mega-Gengar and the 'mechanics' of the metagame. Likewise, with those other people who want to give novelty to Mega Evolutions cause they're supposed to be OP or some crap.

It's not a legitimate complaint in this thread. Discussing calcs and stuff is, cause we're trying to balance the metagame.

If you want, you can go make a separate thread asking Smogon to create a tier called "OU with Mega Evolutions" or stir up a revolution to try and free all Mega Evolutions from the tier.

 

[TheTraininator]

I'm sure it's already been said, but an H-bomb is factors greater in force than an atomic bomb.

Depending on how broken you feel Mega Kang is, this analogy may still work.

 

[Hidious]

This discussion is just going in circles. How much longer until Mega Kangaskhan gets banned?

The Mega Gengar discussion went for a few days. I'd assume Kangaskhanite gets banned by the weekend.

 

[Lilymoding]

Okay just to let you all know, while mega kanghaskahn is OP with double attack boost with parental bond power up punch and access to moves like sucker punch, this doesn't auto classify it to ubers because it wrecked your team. It has some strong counters. It takes double iron barbs damage from ferrothorn, and add that to a rocky helmet and it could take away a fair chunk of health. Also mega alakazam could trace this and be a helluva lot more dangerous with his access to moves like psychic and focus blast. When you agree or disagree with this statement, don't just put "oh it wrecks my team". Make sure you describe its counters (or lack thereof).

 

[Tachnicla]

1000TH POST YAY! >w <

I don't care if this post gets deleted for irrelevancy, ehehe~

Relevant stuff cause I don't wanna make a new post:

I'm sorry, but I feel the OP (Original Post) would disagree with you.

As long as I have discussed it in a well thought out matter, I can express my opinion, and I don't need to make a single damn calculation.

This thread is for the discussion of Kangaskhanite and its impact on the meta game. Meaning that conversation on how the metagame currently runs will happen. The discussion of other Megas will happen because they all impact this item, and this item impacts them.

So instead of attempting to brush my opinion off as nonsense and moving on, actually consider it. Saying, 'Just make another thread' is the same as 'You opinion doesn't matter' because you are adding the assumption that such a thread wouldn't be treated seriously.

Honestly, if you're trying to appeal to Smogon with an angle like that, I think that would be pretty unprofessional if you ask me. You're not exactly make an argument of whether Kangaskhanite should be OU or Uber, rather than you're trying to make cases against the well-being of the metagame. WHICH IS WHY THIS THREAD WAS MADE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Yeah, there's a trade-off. Oh wait, the metagame actually matters? Yeah it does.

I would like to see the ratio between the people who wish to play in a competitive metagame VS the people who think Megas should be allowed cause they, as individuals don't really give a crap about the metagame, except that they would like to see certain Pokes that they can use. People constantly are using anecdotal evidence, and they think that this thread is a: "Mega Kangaskhan is OP and unstoppable thread". Admitted, some people are giving off the wrong impression by saying that it will kill 2/3 of your Pokes to stop it, or all 6. It's just an unfair advantage that people lose out on if they don't use it, and it's centralising the metagame and blah blah blah.

 

[KztxL7]

Okay just to let you all know, while mega kanghaskahn is OP with double attack boost with parental bond power up punch and access to moves like sucker punch, this doesn't auto classify it to ubers because it wrecked your team. It has some strong counters. It takes double iron barbs damage from ferrothorn, and add that to a rocky helmet and it could take away a fair chunk of health. Also mega alakazam could trace this and be a helluva lot more dangerous with his access to moves like psychic and focus blast. When you agree or disagree with this statement, don't just put "oh it wrecks my team". Make sure you describe its counters (or lack thereof).

Read the damn thread. It has been stated countless times why these do not work.

 

[Lilymoding]

But Kanghaskahn can't meet up with some of walls in ubers, like lugia. I believe it should stay in OU. Just because it's really good in the tier, doesn't mean it should move up and not be able to compete (follow up post)

 

[Tomiix]

No, you're just expressing your discontent which does not only concern Mega-Kangaskhan but Mega-Gengar and the 'mechanics' of the metagame. Likewise, with those other people who want to give novelty to Mega Evolutions cause they're supposed to be OP or some crap.

It's not a legitimate complaint in this thread. Discussing calcs and stuff is, cause we're trying to balance the metagame.

If you want, you can go make a separate thread asking Smogon to create a tier called "OU with Mega Evolutions" or stir up a revolution to try and free all Mega Evolutions from the tier.

The Gengarite left us one week ago and now is time to discuss another controversial Item of the XY OU metagame: The Kangashkanite.

As you guys can guess, this is where discussion on the tiering status of the Kangaskhanite will take place. I implore each and every one of you to add to the discussion with well thought out reasoning describing why you feel that the Kangashkanite should be Uber or OU. This topic will be left open until whatever point we feel the discussion has reached its conclusion.

As a reminder: if a ban does occur after this discussion, it'll be effective in both Pre-Bank and Pokebank OU.

I'm sorry, but I feel the OP (Original Post) would disagree with you.

As long as I have discussed it in a well thought out matter, I can express my opinion, and I don't need to make a single damn calculation.

This thread is for the discussion of Kangaskhanite and its impact on the meta game. Meaning that conversation on how the metagame currently runs will happen. The discussion of other Megas will happen because they all impact this item, and this item impacts them.

So instead of attempting to brush my opinion off as nonsense and moving on, actually consider it. Saying, 'Just make another thread' is the same as 'You opinion doesn't matter' because you are adding the assumption that such a thread wouldn't be treated seriously.

It's one thing to discuss them, it's another thing to have to explain them OVER and OVER again to people who come here not knowing what they mean yet arguing nonetheless. If people are being short with you, it's just because we're all feeling like broken records at this point, don't take it too personally.

I'm sorry if that is occuring. Yet that is to be expected when you advertise a thread like this so publicly. (On the Facebook and other social media) You will get people who join in late who want to add in the same two sense. Thanks for the warning about the shortness though, I have already begun to notice that.

 

[KztxL7]

Once again read the thread.

We don't care if it does well in Ubers. It's a banlist first and foremost.

Second, it you bothered to read the thread you'd notice that MKhan actually destroys Lugia.

 

[Srn]

But Kanghaskahn can't meet up with some of walls in ubers, like lugia. I believe it should stay in OU. Just because it's really good in the tier, doesn't mean it should move up and not be able to compete

I believe he said read the damn thread. Everything you've said so far has already been adressed. So please, read the damn thread.

 

[AOPSUser]

But Kanghaskahn can't meet up with some of walls in ubers, like lugia. I believe it should stay in OU. Just because it's really good in the tier, doesn't mean it should move up and not be able to compete

Lugia is OHKOed by +2 Return after SR.

Also, no one cares how well it does in Ubers (see: Deoxys-N). We care that it's too good for OU, and therefore it shouldn't be there.

Ubers is only a tier in the first place because it has more than 20 mons not in OU.