Killing Birds: The Options

RosebloomNixie

RosebloomNixie

formerly Brammi
LCPL Champion
We are all aware, (or should be) that the birds of teir, namely Swellow and Braviary (And Fearow, which is a hybrid of the two) are everywhere at the moment. And just like Zapdos in RBY they have made it nearly impossible to make a team without a rock type to reliably switch in. Teams without a way to deal with the birds will commonly find themselves having to sacrifice a Pokemon or play very accurate prediction games, which is undesirable in the long term.

Good preparation is key and while they may seem like demons in the tier you do have options at your disposal to make sure that you aren't wrecked by the winged terrors.

First and foremost is Stealth Rock. I don't feel like I need to go over this heavily as for it overlaps with the Pokemon section. That said keeping Stealth Rocks on the field will severly hamper how much damage the birds can do to your team. Swellow especially as a result of the added recoil from carrying a status orb.

However, relying on Stealth Rocks as your sole way of dealing with the birds is a futile endeavor. They will punch holes without any way for you to stop them and while they might not sweep you. Their teammates will. So what can we do?

The answer is to carry a Pokemon that can tank their attacks. More often than not this will require you to take a Pokemon that resists both Flying and Normal. The only two types that can do this are Steel and Rock. And with the recent tier shifts good Steel Types are few and far between. But do not fear, for I am here to show you want options are available to you.

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Regirock​

By far the most common answer to the birds and definitely a staple on alot of NU teams, especially in the current meta. It can tank hits from the birds all day. Swellow can't beat it on it's own and Braviary needs it to be weakened to KO it with Superpower (A common theme.)

What does it have over the other options?

80 / 200 / 100 Are simply amazing defenses. It can tank hits all day with very little investment as well as having the flexibility to switch EVs to SDef to check common special attackers such as Rotom and Magmortar. While Probopass and Bastiodon may boast higher special defenses Regirock has much more reliable damage outputs over them.

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Probopass​

Another common answer to the birds of NU. It's dual Steel and Rock typing means it takes next to nothing from their STAB attacks and has a plethora of moves it can use to deal with the birds. However the Steel/Rock typing is a double edged sword as it makes it very susceptible to Braviary's Superpower and Fearow's Drill Run.

What does it have over the other options?

Probopass is perhaps the most versatile options in so far as it has the most support options for the rest of the team. It is also the best option for gaining momentum through it's access to volt switch. In addition it is pretty much the only option that hits on the special side of the spectrem giving it yet another thing that makes it differ from the competition.

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Bastiodon​

Very similar stats wise to Probopass without the special attack options. As a result it does well against the birds for the same reasons as Probopass does.

What does it have over the other options?

Perhaps the only thing that sets it apart is it's combination of Taunt / Metal Burst and the ability sturdy meaning it is able to function as a very good surprise killer for other threats in the tier. However as a one trick pony this is usually easy to pick up on and thus countered. That said it is a viable option and can turn matches in your favour if used correctly under the correct conditions.

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Golem​

Golem rounds out the trio of the the top three most popular answers to the birds.

What does it have over the other options?

Golem has dual STAB on EdgeQuake and a large attack stat meaning it can hit very hard. In addition it gains access to Sucker Punch allowing it to function well against non Sub Gorebyss which is usually a pain for pokemon of it's type. One of the best options for offensive teams.

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Relicanth​

Another strong offensive option to deal with bird. In addition it can both counter birds and run a sweeping set at the same time.

What does it have over other options?

Another interesting dual stab that sets it apart from the other options for this role. He hits incredibly hard with STAB Head Smash as well as set up on birds that are stuck in a move that isn't super effective or named Swellow. This can be a great boon for your team thus making it another great choice for offensive teams.



*work in progress*
To come: Lairon, Metang, Bronzor, Gigalith, Luxray, Golbat, Alomomola
 
Shelgon will work, due to the fact that 252/252 Impish Evolite takes about 40% max from Swellow Facade, and can stall it out from Toxic Orb recoil. And, it actually doesn't lose a ton of health from Superpower/Drill Run, making it a great counter to other birds.
 
You might also remember Carracosta, since he actually has the defenses to withstand Swellow and can immediately threaten it with a Smash set. Also, gigalith is a pretty popular option, with the best ATK stat out of all the options.

I maintain that Golem is the best option- the Ground typing does him more good that wrong, allowing him to counter the ubiquitous Rotom-s. Sucker Punch is also reaaaaally handy, as it STAB EQ.
 
This is a pretty interesting thread, I agree with Smith for sure that golem is the best. I used to be a big fan of Regirock, but after giving Golem a try there's no way I'm going back. sucker punch alone makes up for the lessened defenses in my mind, and as previously mentioned stab EQ hits like a truck. Offensive threats; like absol can keep the birds off your case as well. Though it is always better to have something you can switch in.
 
Smith said:
You might also remember Carracosta, since he actually has the defenses to withstand Swellow and can immediately threaten it with a Smash set. Also, gigalith is a pretty popular option, with the best ATK stat out of all the options.

I maintain that Golem is the best option- the Ground typing does him more good that wrong, allowing him to counter the ubiquitous Rotom-s. Sucker Punch is also reaaaaally handy, as it STAB EQ.
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I know there were a few things I missed.

Am I really the only one that runs HP water on my rotom?
 
Where's Wormadam-S?. This thing can tank Braviary and Swellows hits like a boss. Adamant Scarf Braviary Superpower does around 120 damage to a 252 Def / 252 Hp impish Wormadam-S and a Bravebird does around 50%. I dont see many Banded Braviarys Cuz they can easly get outspd and ohko with a Super Effective move.Plus Wormadam-S has access to SR, Toxic, Sucker Punch, Gyroball and Protect.
 
The thing is, what else is Wormadam-S good for? I'm sure it's a set up bait for multiple things. I guess it does counter them... but it sucks otherwise.
 
Don't forget Alomomola. That thing walls both Swellow and Braviary (among several other Pokemon) easy.

edit: I missed it in the to-come part, lol. Also, Wormadam-S has little utility outside of somewhat dealing with the birds, and even then the other Rock- and Steel-types seem to do everything it can better. Honestly, it just makes it easier for dangerous Pokemon like Magmortar to waltz in and wreck a team. Probopass remains my favorite option, however, mostly because of that cool 'stache.
 
There's intimidate Mawile but it's a dead weight outside of that.

I guess you could run a set like (Pain split / Body slam / Iron Head / filler) heaps of options for the last spot, like sucker punch, magnet rise, taunt, crunch.

I don't know, I've just had fun with randomly paralyzing pokemon that switch in after swellow and Braviary switch out with body slam and then process to win by iron head hax lol.
 
js, but Mawile, Bastiodon, and Probopass are both 4x weak to fighting, meaning they can't switch into Braviary's Superpower. Not a big deal, but something that I feel should be pointed out.

EDIT: I'm retarded and though Mawile is Dark/Steel. My bad. :\

In fact, most of the pokemon on this list get hurt by a Superpower from Braviary. Again, probably not a big deal, but more teams don't pack 2 bird counters.

Also, there should probably be an offensive counter section in the OP. Absol can do a number on Swellow with Sucker Punch, and Scarf Rotom-S (i think that's the fan) outspeeds and KOs with Thunderbolt. ScarfJynx outspeeds and KOs with Ice Beam.
 
Mawile is just a Steel-type, so it's only 2x weak to fighting moves. Probopass is meant to come in on Brave Birds and since Braviary is running around with a scarf strapped to him it isn't that hard to bring in Probo on a known Brave Bird (like against a Misdreavus for example) and just sit there and wall it to high hell.
 
^ Mawile is a Pure Steel type and is only 2x weak to fighting NOT 4x.

Mawile's Intimidate also lower Braviary's attack so it can survive Superpower.

Choice Scarf Max Att Jolly Braviary's after intimidate vs Max HP Max Def Impish Mawile = 44.7% - 52.6%

Choice Scarf Max Att Jolly Braviary's after intimidate and Attack drop from Super Power vs Max HP Max Def Impish Mawile = 33.6% - 39.5%

Not even a 2hko even after rocks and leftovers.

Choice Scarf Max Att adamant Braviary's after intimidate vs Max HP Max Def Impish Mawile = 48.7% - 57.9%

Choice Scarf Max Att adamant Braviary's after intimidate and Attack drop from Super Power vs Max HP Max Def Impish Mawile = 36.8% - 43.4%

There's a Chance of being 2hko with a high roll.

Choice Band Max Att Jolly Braviary's after intimidate vs Max HP Max Def Impish Mawile = 66.4% - 78.3%

it's a Pretty Obvious 2hko.

Choice Band Max Att adamant Braviary's after intimidate vs Max HP Max Def Impish Mawile =73% - 86.2%

Also a Pretty obvious 2hko, if you have 3 layers of spikes and Stealth rocks up it's a OHKO

Edit: Steamroll beat me
 
Wait, why is LUXRAY there?!

Not only have I never seen one, unless its 252 HP/252+ Def Luxray (which is just... why), it will be absolutely demolished.

I'm guessing typo...

EDIT: Well, to be honest, I completely forgot Intimidate, so I suppose it isn't all bad. Sorry if it came off that way, it wasn't the usage, it was the fact it has rather middling 80/79/79 defenses. However, I still have a bone to pick with that, as Guts is usually the better ability when you are using Luxray, so its really a niche counter.
 
Intimidate allows it to soften up physical hits. Well, Swellow has a better STAB in Facade to hit Lux with, but Braviary actually has no ways to hit it other than Frustration, which doesn't quite kill, and he'll be forced out. Luxray is never seen, but from my personal experience, I don't think I should be underestimating Pokemon just because it has low usage.

I also found Misdreavus a valuable tool in checking Swellow. It's forced to Brave Bird, take ridiculous amount of Recoil + Orb damage + SR = dead bird. Braviary gets around her rather easily, though. Also, Lickilicky can't switch in either, but stalls out Swellow with Wish+Protect while it withers away thanks to Toxic damage. I feel that Swellow is easier to full-out counter, while Braviary is harder to counter but is easier to take advantage of (as all of them are scarfed.)

Finally, in an anti-bird discussion thread it may seem somewhat out of place, but how good is Dodrio? I know no birds other than Swellow + Braviary get any spotlight, but it is significantly faster than Braviary. Its scarf set is pretty strong, and can revenge Gorebyss as well, for example, and of course the Choice Band set is really strong, and it's something Braviary's not very good at.
 
As far as "bird counters" go, Luxray is entirely mediocre. Even with Intimidate, he's taking a ton from Swellow Facade, and with no reliable recovery and bad defensive typing, the only thing I can think of when I hear "defensive luxray" is "why". If you're using Luxray, it should be as a wallbreaker or Guts sweeper.

Oh, and Absol deserves a mention as a check. Since the birds are almost guaranteed to use an attacking move, Sucker Punch usually can do enough to get the job done. BEWARE QUICK ATTACK SWELLOW.
 
stealth rock is a big swellow counter, since status damage+stealth rock wears it down pretty fast. not to mention that without rocks up, swellow can repeatedly just u-turn it's counters racking up hazard + u-turn damage until they are within KO range for braviary superpower
 
Amarillo said:
Finally, in an anti-bird discussion thread it may seem somewhat out of place, but how good is Dodrio? I know no birds other than Swellow + Braviary get any spotlight, but it is significantly faster than Braviary. Its scarf set is pretty strong, and can revenge Gorebyss as well, for example, and of course the Choice Band set is really strong, and it's something Braviary's not very good at.
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I band my Dodrio. It doesn't get a giant movepool unfortunately (brave bird, quick attack, pursuit, steel wing, frustration, etc). It'd be amazing if it had u-turn tbh. I prefer it over swellow.
 
Machineae said:
I band my Dodrio. It doesn't get a giant movepool unfortunately (brave bird, quick attack, pursuit, steel wing, frustration, etc). It'd be amazing if it had u-turn tbh. I prefer it over swellow.
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I don't see why, Guts Swellow has more speed, and, despite having Base 85 Atk against Base 110, Status Facade outdamages CB Dodrio's Return by quite a large margin. [Base 140 v Base 102, then you throw in STAB, making it Base 210 v Base 153, increaseing the discerpancy]

All Dodrio has going for it is it outlasts Swellow. Oh wait, no it dosen't because it has to switch into SR more because it can't change it's attacks.

Swellow almost completely outclasses Dodrio, unless you really want a Flying-type with Persuit. I guess Dodrio works OK with a Life Orb, but Swellow gets Roost...
 
Raikaria said:
I don't see why, Guts Swellow has more speed, and, despite having Base 85 Atk against Base 110, Status Facade outdamages CB Dodrio's Return by quite a large margin. [Base 140 v Base 102, then you throw in STAB, making it Base 210 v Base 153, increaseing the discerpancy]

All Dodrio has going for it is it outlasts Swellow. Oh wait, no it dosen't because it has to switch into SR more because it can't change it's attacks.

Swellow almost completely outclasses Dodrio, unless you really want a Flying-type with Persuit. I guess Dodrio works OK with a Life Orb, but Swellow gets Roost...
Click to expand...

Dodrio's sole advantage over Swellow is a stronger Brave Bird; it also doesn't have to deal with constant Toxic damage which is both a nuisance and an advantage (immune to burns) for Swellow.
 
Swellow gets Pursuit.

Seriously, Carracosta is an amazing counter to the birds. Solid Rock really helps against Superpower and Drill Run, and that massive defense easily lets him pull off a physically defensive set. Admittedly shell smash is obviously his best set, but don't underestimate his defensive prowess. curse is pretty awesome too

EDIT @ Mishra: My apologies, I read that Dodrio has Pursuit, which would set it apart from Swellow
 
Dodrio's best claim to fame is its speed: adamant scarf dodrio still outspeeds timid Rotom-S and it is generally unrevengeable short of priority if you decide to run Jolly with CS. It has horrible coverage and generally MUST have the opponent's bird counters eliminated before attempting to sweep.
 
I find that Dodrio works best on a "multi-bird" team, kinda the way heracross and pinsir work, or rayquaza and salamence. just keep battering away at the opponents with brave bird. dodrio does have nice speed though. can't believe it doesn't get U-turn though...
 
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