Kyurem-B Discussion: Is it Broken?

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Soul Fly

IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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"Yes it shits on defensive teams. But that's how BW2 is."
really? we acknowledge that it's probably the worst thing for defensive teams to face but that's ok because it's bw2? jesus

I didn't say I liked it that way, stop confusing my resignation with complacency. I never said it's 'ok', so stop putting words in my mouth.

And yes it is fact BKC, even you know it. Things (maybe) got a bit better with Lando-I gone but we still have stuff like Keldeo around which absolutely steamrolls the entire meta (bar celebi) under rain. The OU community (which incidentally even you are a part of) has no one but itself to blame for this since they were the very people who greenlighted Kyu-B's entry into OU with the suspect test (this was before my time though, I have NO freaking idea why this was allowed to happen).
 

peng

fuck xatu
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The Choice Band set definitely doesn't have a 7/10 impact on the metagame. Most of the time it ends up as a 1-for-1 trade that your opponent gets to choose. It has a poor match-up vs any offense and doesn't make-up for that with any particularly great match-ups elsewhere. Similarly I've never seen the appeal of Scarf Kyu-B. I'm not sure if people are trying to use it as a dedicated revenge killer or a late-game cleaner or something, but between SR-weakness, Spikes susceptibility, common priority weakness, "low" base speed and weakness to the faster scarfers (Keldeo, Jirachi, Terrakion) its clearly not good at either of these things.

The Life Orb 4 attacks set isn't as good at breaking stall / balance as it looks on paper since you are taking Stealth Rock, Sandstorm, and Life Orb recoil and you don't have the shield of Substitute to protect you from Scarf Tyranitar / Scarf Jirachi. I'd face this over the Substitute set any day. It gets a kill at most before its forced out again by something faster (and even stall has "something faster"), and something as hazard susceptible as Kyurem-B can't afford to be doing that.

I'm surprised dedicated SubRoost isn't mentioned because its probably more common at high-level play than Choice Band and Scarf combined. There are loads of variants on the set but I believe the standard is like Sub | Roost | DTail | Ice Beam / Hone Claws with a bunch of SDef investment. Also seen Sub | Roost | EPower | Ice Beam variants fairly often too.

I'm of the opinion that Sub variants of Kyurem-B are "broken" and it should leave OU. I'm still unsure of the reasoning behind bringing it down because it was always just going to end up as one of those mons you bring if you want to counterteam a stall player easily. Its not strictly broken in the BW2 OU sense of the word (in that there are other uncounterable Pokemon that are still solidly OU atm) but I don't think that it brings anything positive to the game at all. In my eyes, it is team match-up personified (or pokemon-ified idfk).
 
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Gary

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I didn't say I liked it that way, stop confusing my resignation with complacency. I never said it's 'ok', so stop putting words in my mouth.

And yes it is fact BKC, even you know it. Things (maybe) got a bit better with Lando-I gone but we still have stuff like Keldeo around which absolutely steamrolls the entire meta (bar celebi) under rain. The OU community (which incidentally even you are a part of) has no one but itself to blame for this since they were the very people who greenlighted Kyu-B's entry into OU with the suspect test (this was before my time though, I have NO freaking idea why this was allowed to happen).

I feel like it was because a lot of us focused on its glaring defensive typing and shitty physical movepool, when in fact both really didn't matter as much as we thought. Kyurem-B can overcome its weaknesses much easier then people think it can, and it only needs to use a select few physical moves anyway, because everything else is covered by its special movepool. Everyone also focused on the physical sets as well. It seemed like the mixed sets never really caught on until a few months after the initial suspect testing.
 
Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
Relaxed Nature
- Substitute
- Roost
- Dragon Tail
- Ice Beam

This set has insane surprise value an is one of the most dangerous pokemon to face when you have hazards on your side of the field. 125/100/90 defenses are incredible on a pokemon that has more attack than adamant terrakion uninvested. It finds many opportunities to switch in and set up that first sub, and start the vicious cycle. Too many 4x ice weak pokemon are in OU, and this set KOes all of them with no investment, threatening to shuffer the switch in for additional SR damage. Very few things can KO this pokemon, and anything slower can be PP stalled easily. It takes SE hits and can shuffle the opponent's pokemon away. It can "sweep" entire teams with rapid spin support, but you MUST have at least SR on the field. Analytic Starmie with Thunder makes a great partner, removing spinblockers and keeping SR off the field. Forretress provides Toxic spikes support/spikes support(important to get damage on grounded steels) and can sponge any errant draco meteors that threaten to KO this behemoth. Specially defensive Gyarados resists everything this pokemon doesn't, and makes an incredible partner as it lowers attack and makes setting up those substitutes even easier. It doesn't handle powerful stab special attacks too well, but its massive HP stat let it set up in the face of defensive pokemon with ease.

The physical damage calcs are astounding: Literally nothing save banded dragonite outrage KOes more than 75% of the time, so this works as a pretty safe last stop check to powerful physical attackers.
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyurem-B: 284-336 (62.55 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [see CB terrakion for CB outrage damage calcs)
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyurem-B: 200-236 (44.05 - 51.98%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyurem-B: 422-498 (92.95 - 109.69%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyurem-B: 234-276 (51.54 - 60.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyurem-B: 204-242 (44.93 - 53.3%) -- 1.17% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyurem-B: 247-291 (54.4 - 64.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (127 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyurem-B: 186-222 (40.96 - 48.89%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (ferrothorn is almost always setup bait. just make sure you don't switch in on leech seed. relaxed nature lowers the power of gyro ball)

Kyurem-B can take special attacks, but Draco Meteors of any kind or Specs Focus Blasts send it running home.

252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 106-126 (23.34 - 27.75%) -- possible 5HKO
+1 4 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 344-408 (75.77 - 89.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 344-408 (75.77 - 89.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I added the Keldeo calc to show that dtail coming off of uninvested 170 Atk is still incredible, factoring in hazards, even keldeo is 2hkoed.

0 SpA Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 412-492 (116.38 - 138.98%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 576-684 (156.09 - 185.36%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 212-252 (50.47 - 60%) -- 84.77% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragonite: 348-412 (90.15 - 106.73%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
4 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 112-133 (34.56 - 41.04%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

(had to create an account to post this set. it's done wonders for me)
 

Soul Fly

IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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I feel like it was because a lot of us focused on its glaring defensive typing and shitty physical movepool, when in fact both really didn't matter as much as we thought. Kyurem-B can overcome its weaknesses much easier then people think it can, and it only needs to use a select few physical moves anyway, because everything else is covered by its special movepool. Everyone also focused on the physical sets as well. It seemed like the mixed sets never really caught on until a few months after the initial suspect testing.

Ah yes. Remember all the Move Puddle jokes? Now look where we are.
 

ElectivireRocks

Banned deucer.
Actually, I was one of the very few people who were dead set against allowing Kyu-B in OU because of its mixed attacking set and its ability to 2HKO (at worst) everything.
Unfortunatey that test took place when Genesect and Tornadus-T were still allowed in OU so most people didn't bother exploring its full potential when they could just mindlessly spam U-Turn and Hurricane and decimate the opposition .
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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Guys, I just want to make this clear that I don't think Kyurem-B is broken because of the lack of switch-ins it has (which a few of you seem to be accusing me of doing). If that was the case, then Hydreigon would be broken too. That's not what I'm getting at. Please re-read my reasoning's before you put words in my mouth.
 
I didn't say I liked it that way, stop confusing my resignation with complacency. I never said it's 'ok', so stop putting words in my mouth.

And yes it is fact BKC, even you know it. Things (maybe) got a bit better with Lando-I gone but we still have stuff like Keldeo around which absolutely steamrolls the entire meta (bar celebi) under rain. The OU community (which incidentally even you are a part of) has no one but itself to blame for this since they were the very people who greenlighted Kyu-B's entry into OU with the suspect test (this was before my time though, I have NO freaking idea why this was allowed to happen).
Keldeo isn't that good vs stall. Celebi, Amoonguss, Latias, and Jellicent are all very common on stall and can beat most sets even under rain. In fact, the metagame doesn't have as many pokemon that "steamroll" the meta as you imply. Kyurem-b, hydreigon, and maybe breloom are the only viable pokemon that can destroy stall with minimal support. And even then, hydreigon can be played around, and breloom has it's counters. This leaves only kyurem that completely beats stall. Just because we let kyurem-b into ou before, doesn't mean that banning it is not an option.
 
I didn't say I liked it that way, stop confusing my resignation with complacency. I never said it's 'ok', so stop putting words in my mouth.
it wasn't a jab aimed at you, i'm just frustrated that kyu-b was dropped in the first place.

And yes it is fact BKC, even you know it. Things (maybe) got a bit better with Lando-I gone but we still have stuff like Keldeo around which absolutely steamrolls the entire meta (bar celebi) under rain. The OU community (which incidentally even you are a part of) has no one but itself to blame for this since they were the very people who greenlighted Kyu-B's entry into OU with the suspect test (this was before my time though, I have NO freaking idea why this was allowed to happen).
not me. i think the only reason kyu-b wasn't found broken in its own test [which it was hardly used in] was because there was even more ridiculous shit running around back then like genesect / torn-t / landorus. plus there wasn't really any stall around that it could shit on.
 
I don't think Kyurem-B is "broken"; however I don't think that means it should be allowed in the metagame.

When we say something is broken, we mean that it is simply too dominant a force for the tier to handle. Whether that be through brute force, survivability or unpredictability, a threat that cannot be handled reliably by a large enough pool of relevant pokemon is broken. Kyurem B is not broken. It can be revenge killed by basically the entire offensive metagame, and most everything that isn't weak to its coverage can normally take a hit and kill it back. Even the ones that are can survive if they possess the bulk (things like toed, Jirachi, Ferro, Jellicent), and at least do SOMETHING back. Point is that if we look at the metagame from a purely static view, Kyurem B is not broken.

However, that's not to say it should remain in the tier. If we ONLY ban things because they are broken, then I think we'll have a pretty shit meta. Yea sure, Cube can be dealt with by the majority of BW2 teams (degenerate offense). That absolutely does not mean we should ignore the minority playstyles that Cube hurts. Mainly stall, but even balance struggles due to the fact that scarf Cube exists. You can respond with "BW2 is already offensive trash w/wo Cube", but that attitude is lazy and will never give a satisfactory metagame. If we can give smaller playstyles like stall a boost by banning Cube, I don't see why we shouldn't. I know I'll hear slippery slopes like "why don't we just ban every poke that troubles stall", but Cube basically invalidates stall as a playstyle. Other than Hydreigon, there is no other poke that can do this. However Hydreigon's overall defensive package is much less than Cube's, making it a lot easier to deal with. Even terrifying things like Sub SD Terrakion can be dealt with by a well built stall team (Scarf Lando-T is underused on stall imo, but regardless); Cube cannot be.

My case then, is that Cube be banned under a new perspective for banning. Rather than looking at it as some linear broken or not broken issue, we should be considering the effect that Cube has on each relevant playstyle, and make our decision accordingly.
 
i'm loving the logic of these people who run offense almost exclusively and therefore don't think kyurem-b is broken. if i ran nothing but terrakion jirachi scizor breloom latios etc i wouldn't have issues with kyu-b either!

"Yes it shits on defensive teams. But that's how BW2 is."
really? we acknowledge that it's probably the worst thing for defensive teams to face but that's ok because it's bw2? jesus
How are we supposed to comment on this topic then? Everyone comes here and shares his view on Kyube, whether or not they use it and how it effects their playstyle and team choices, and as most HO users will tell you, it's a good, great pokemon even but it's not something we fear or put into consideration when constructing a team, as most HO pokemon outspeed with their base stats, and with proper setup or using their most powerful moves OHKO it before it does anything, not to mention it's problems with SR and pokemon such as Jirachi and Ferrothorn.

Also, that last part was unnecessary BKC, stall isn't exactly the most skill inspiring playstyle either.

Edit:

" 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyurem-B: 204-242 (44.93 - 53.3%) -- 1.17% chance to 2HKO"

Seriously, we are doing this now?
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
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Kyurem-B is, I think, only not a huge restriction on team building because it's used so little on the ladder. Honestly, what do you do when the opponent's Kyurem-B gets behind a sub? For me, I usually think: "Ok...well, I guess I need to fodder something to break its sub and then see what I can do from there...fuck." Part of what makes Kyurem-B so terrifying is that you have no idea what set its going to be, and each set has very different counters. Choice Scarf sets can be easily handled by Steel types, but they get demolished by Sub sets with Fusion Bolt, Earth power, or HP Fire. For most other Pokémon, you could say "well Kyurem-B can't run ALL those moves, so what's the problem?" But by the time you find out what set your opponent is using, you could have lost a major check to it. For example, you could expect it to be Banded, so you send out Ferrothorn to tank what you think is Outrage, only to die to HP Fire. Then you just get pounded by Outrage later in the match (even if it isn't banded, it'll be doing a ton to anything that doesn't resist it). I mean look at how many possible sets we're discussing on a Pokémon that is notorious for having a "shitty move-pool!" It's insane, and the immense pressure it puts on the opponent to figure out its set before it wrecks you is too much, in my opinion. I consider Kyurem-B to be much more dangerous than Landorus was for this exact reason. It's much more versatile and much more powerful. It also can run mixed sets very effectively, especially since it doesn't have to even invest in its attack to be stronger than even Salamence! Is this really something we want to keep in OU?

Oh, I'd also like to point out that Teravolt means Iron Barbs / Rough Skin don't work on him, which is awesome since it lets him still Outrage on Ferrothorn from behind a sub without being worn down, and Scarf doesn't have to sacrifice any of its bulk when revenge killing a Garchomp.
 
I think the only reason kyu-b wasn't found broken in its own test [which it was hardly used in] was because there was even more ridiculous shit running around back then like genesect / torn-t / landorus. plus there wasn't really any stall around that it could shit on.
True. The offensive powercreep is astounding here in OU. I personally find stall an incredibly boring playstyle and couldn't care less if it were viable or not, but I don't see any reason to ban or remove Kyurem-B. It's not running through the majority of OU teams on its own like Genect, Lando, or Tornadus-t. The Cube makes an excellent stall mon
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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How are we supposed to comment on this topic then? Everyone comes here and shares his view on Kyube, whether or not they use it and how it effects their playstyle and team choices, and as most HO users will tell you, it's a good, great pokemon even but it's not something we fear or put into consideration when constructing a team, as most HO pokemon outspeed with their base stats, and with proper setup or using their most powerful moves OHKO it before it does anything, not to mention it's problems with SR and pokemon such as Jirachi and Ferrothorn.

Also, that last part was unnecessary BKC, stall isn't exactly the most skill inspiring playstyle either.

I think you're missing the point of BKC's concerns. He was concerned how players that prefer to play more offensively, don't really consider Kyurem-B to be that much of a threat. That's fine and all, but you can't determine how broken Kyurem-B just by how well HO handles it. If a HO player wants to say how easy they can handle it, that's fine, but BKC doesn't want to see something like this, "Kyurem-B isn't broken because offensive teams have no trouble in dealing with it". That's not coming up with a conclusion, that's just being biased. You have to take other playstyles into consideration, not just HO. Honestly, the only things that trouble HO, are opposing fast sweepers. No shit Kyurem-B isn't that big of a threat to HO. It's slow. On the flip side, Kyurem-B is a menace to balanced and defensive teams. As long as you mention other playstyles in your argument, then it's fine, but if you only compare Cube to HO, then you're verdict is flawed.
 

Soul Fly

IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
is a Contributor Alumnus
Keldeo isn't that good vs stall. Celebi, Amoonguss, Latias, and Jellicent are all very common on stall and can beat most sets even under rain. In fact, the metagame doesn't have as many pokemon that "steamroll" the meta as you imply.
Amoonguss is the only one who really stops Keldeo but is rather rare and doesn't fit in most teams really well (apart from stall, but ok lets work with what we have here).
Celebi and Jellicent already get boned by HP Ghost which is becoming extremely common by the day as a coverage option, same case for Latias, who gets screwed by BOTH Icy Wind (which stops it from CM tanking/Scaring it away with Psychic) and HP Ghost. Nothing in stall is really switching into Specs Keldeo without taking a 50/50 chance on which move it'll decide to spam.

Relevant Calcs w/ Specs Keldeo said:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 182-216 (50 - 59.34%) -- 80.08% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 168-198 (41.58 - 49%) -- 25.78% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 164-194 (40.59 - 48.01%) -- 10.94% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And these are supposed to be the BEST special walls in OU, so to see them barely avoiding a 2HKO from a Specially offensive Rain Spammer is really unnerving, and you're here telling me Keldeo cannot Steamroll through teams.

Okay let's get back to Kyu-B now. That's the main focus of this discussion. Matter of fact is some team styles find it extremely easy to deal with (Offensive teams running fast scarfers/Multiple priorities) while some teams are utterly raped. It's really a matter of what team styles you usually play.
 
stuff like Keldeo around which absolutely steamrolls the entire meta (bar celebi)
Jellicent or Ammonguss are really a problem for all Keldeo [EDIT : ninja'ed ; but you should note that HP Ghost isn't powerful enough to beat Celebi, so you cannot beat Jellicent + Celebi with one Keldeo set unless you get a lot of previous damage. (Re-read, ok Specs can do something with that though it'll have the choice problem)], Celebi isn't for the HP Bug E-Belt which will be happy to catch you and net a free kill.

For Kyu-B, an event which would give him Ice Shard would be a very good new. People may be ready for ban it at this moment.
 

Gary

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Don't argue about Keldeo on this thread please. It's meant for Cube only, not other Pokemon.
 
Let's not descent into a pot calling kettle black argument. I miss the time when we used to judge a pokemon based on how constricting it was on team building (you had to have a counter or at least a check for just this one pokemon) and how playing with anything else other than said pokemon would be an inferior option, even within the same class of teams (example Deo + 5 outclassing everything, including other HO Teams).

I also thought once Game Freak revealed the fairy type which is immune to Dragon and SE to both the former and the Fighting type, the two most HO elements of the game, as well as moves such as parting shot and other game fixing elements that we would stop blaming ourselvesand our decisions.

Now, the reason why the input of HO players is important is because they are the ones who are gonna use it against stall or anything else, and guessing by last month's stats and the existance of other higher priority ban suspects such as Keledo, it is safe to say it's not Kyube alone thats putting stall down because HO isn't adopting it.

Granted, that all could change with next month's stats (perhaps someone will find a way to make a new core with Kyube in it) or even after the Pony gets the boot (if) and people search for the next best thing, but until then, we should argue on todays facts.
 
Personally I don't think it should have ever been unbanned but I don't think it deserves the time to be rebanned. It basically loses to any steel type, SR, Mach Punch, Bullet punch, a burn from scald and more... It is centralizing because you have to use a steel or have something sashed up or you will lose a few pokemon for sure depending on the set. I would almost certainly vote ban if it was suspected again just because of it's power, coverage and ability to recover and sub.
 

alexwolf

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I will only comment on the three best of Kyu-B's sets, meaning Sub + 3 attacks, Scarf, and SpD SubRoost.

Sub + 3 attacks
  • vs Offense: Dangerous once it finds a set-up chance, which he usually does, especially against sun and rain teams. Can take down at least 1 team member but if it can't find a switch-in chance then it ends not being so useful due to its not so great Speed, weakness to SR, and common weaknesses in Fighting, Rock, and Steel.
  • vs Balance: It usually tries to take advantage of the opponent's defensive Pokemon to start putting pressure, and it does it very well, unless the opponent is packing a hard counter of 'course (Jirachi, Chansey, Forre and Roost Scizor and Ferro if Kyu-B lacks HP Fire, or if rain is up in Scizor's case). However as balanced teams usually have 1-2 defensive Pokemon that Kyu-B can't OHKO, they can usually deal with it at least once, and thanks to its SR weakness it has a hard time coming in multiple times, assuming that the players with the balanced team doesn't play stupid of 'course.
  • vs Stall: Finds many set-up chances and can deal huge damage if the stall team lacks a hard counter. If, however, it does have one, then Sub Kyu-B is easy to deal with (i already listed most of them)
Scarf
  • vs Offense: Dangerous as fuck but it needs a lot of support. It needs opposing scarfers eliminated, as it is slower than most of them, Breloom and Scizor gone, as they both OHKO with priority, and Steel-types weakened in order to spam its STAB freely. Very effective with the good support, but this can be said for many good offensive Pokemon.
  • vs Balance: Similarly to offensive teams, it can be very effective with the right support. Still has problem against the Scarfer that most balanced teams have, as well as the sturdy Steel-type that almost all balanced teams use. While it gets less immediate OHKOes due to the increased bulk of balanced teams in comparison to offensive teams, it can also find more switch-in chances against the defensive Pokemon that those teams have.
  • vs Stall: Not a problem at all
SpD SubRoost
  • vs Offense: Can find some setup chances thanks to its good bulk and useful resistances and from there harass the opposing team with D-Tail, especially if hazards are up, but nothing particularly hard to deal with, as it doesn't hit hard enough and there are usually many Pokemon in offensive teams that can threaten Kyu-B with great amounts of damage, faster phazing (Ninetales and fast Heatran), or even status (Rotom-W, Gliscor, fast Heatran) or both. However, it should be noted that it can be a nightmare to certain sun offense teams, which is a good thing.
  • vs Balance: Depends on the match-up. Fares very well against balanced rain teams, especially if it paired with a good spinblocker, as it gets many set-up chances, but not so good against sand balance, which has less Water-types and more Pokemon that can prevent Kyu-B from setting up a Sub with one way or another. However, if Kyu-B's team manages to setup enough hazards against the sand balance team then one set-up chance is all Kyu-B needs to start wrecking shit, as the spinners on sand teams are much easier to spinblock than those of rain teams.
  • vs Stall: It just owns them.

All in all, Kyu-B is a great Pokemon and a top-tier threat that fits very well in this metagame thanks to its ability to threaten both rain and sun teams and provide a solid switch-on to rain-boosted Water attacks that can start threatening opposing teams on its own, unlike most sturdy Water-resists such as Celebi, Jellicent, and Latias. The quality to combat sun teams is also very much appreciated for weatherless and more defensive teams, which usually struggle against sun offense, and gives them some insurance against the beastly Venusaur, which means that it actually gave a boost to some defensive teams. Of 'course it is one of the biggest threats to stall teams, but nothing that can't be handled with careful teambuilding and good play (except the D-Tail set, but this set's purpose is to fuck up stall so you get the drift). At the end of the day, Kyu-B is just another very strong Pokemon that troubles defensive teams, but there are plenty of such Pokemon and it would seem unfair to me to ban a Pokemon that brings many positives to the tier, just to give a slight boost to a certain playstyle, which already has many more problems to deal with.
 
Your argument can be summed up as "I play heavy offense almost exclusively and I never have trouble with Kyurem-B. Heavy offense also does not use Kyurem-B [untrue btw], therefore it's not broken", ignoring how ridiculous it is against defensive playstyles.

What the hell do next month's stats, any potential core, and especially the Fairy type have to do with any of this?
 

TheFourthChaser

#TimeForChange
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Sounds like BKC has gotten a lot of my thoughts posted and the OP makes the pro-ban arguments seem much better than the anti-ban ones.

I don't understand why Kyurem-B was tested in the first place and thanks to Pokemon like Genesect and Tornadus-T, along with the nature of the metagame, it was seen as acceptable. Because defensive teams are practically non-existent there aren't any stall teams to show how destructive Kyu-B is to that side of the spectrum. Is it going to destroy me with Banded Dragon moves? Is it going to Sub (it can have 101 Subs!) on my switch to Ferro/Skarm and wreck me from there? Against offense the speed and typing are bothers but the insane attack stats more than makes for them.

This may spark a philosophy of banning argument but Kyu-B's detriments far outweigh its benefits (personally I don't think there are any) and I think it needs to go.
 

Arcticblast

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Guys, I think I've found the only Pokemon that can avoid a 2HKO from every prominent Kyurem-B set after SR:

Registeel @ Leftovers
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 228 SDef / 32 Def
Calm Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Rest
- filler
- filler

252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Registeel: 151-178 (41.59 - 49.03%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 228+ SpD Registeel: 146-174 (40.22 - 47.93%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Registeel Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 150-176 (38.36 - 45.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

When the only Pokemon that can comfortably take something's attacks is Registeel, there's a problem. Even Arceus-fucking-Steel can't take on every set with one spread (although this is partly due to its lack of Leftovers).

EDIT: It loses to Focus Blast Kyurem-B. Fuck.
 
penguinx is too lazy to post but he made a really good point on irc about kyu-b;

[23:44] <&penguinx> as if people are really thinking
[23:44] <&penguinx> "damn i shouldnt use politoed jellicent and celebi because kyu-b can set up on them"
[23:44] <&penguinx> the only time anyone thinks about kyu-b
[23:45] <&penguinx> is when you see it in team preview and either go "lol i have breloom and scizor and scarf keld" or "shit i have nothing for this oh well its designed to fuck stall and sun over"
[23:45] <&penguinx> its the personification of team match-up
 

peng

fuck xatu
is a Community Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
my point being that kyurem-b doesnt bring anything positive to the table. if it did you'd expect to see it influence the meta in some way but that doesnt seem to be the case. nobody i've spoken to actively prepares for kyurem-b specifically when teambuilding because 1) they are running offense and have like 4 checks to it by default or 2) they are running stall and know its just something they are probably going to have trouble with

all kyu-b brings to the table is more match-up influenced wins vs stall which isnt healthy at all. the fact that nobody says "damn i'm too scared to use sun / celebi / jellicent / politoed / any bulky water because of kyurem-b" is evidence enough that kyurem-b isn't influential to the meta.
 
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