Pokémon Kyurem-Black

[Ogami]

What is this landorus-T spread that you are all talking about? I tend to run mine very bulky so I'm curious what the norm is for a faster offensive pivot lando-T. I find that I either fight against very bulky ones, or scarfed ones so I don't have a lot of experience knowing what speed to hit against anything else.

I'm starting to think 216+ speed might not be necessary on a substitute set. That's what I run currently, and I wouldn't mind a little more hitting power. I'm thinking of this:

Kyurem Black@Leftovers
Ability:Teravolt
EVs: 56 Hp / 40 Att / 252 SpA / 160 Spe
Lonely
-Substitute
-Fusion Bolt
-Ice Beam
-Earth Power

160 speed ev's get you to 266 like I suggested earlier. I dunno. I feel like if I switch this set that's when I'm suddenly going to hit a rash of games where I need to outspeed Mega-Luc as he evolves. I never run LO variants (maybe that's a fault of mine, but substitute is too brilliant on him IMO) so missing out on the ohko always pisses me off. That being said 252 special attack with a neutral nature only gets you a 25% chance w/o rocks and a 44% with. Maybe a positive nature would be better, but I always feel like fusion bolt is lacking a little power on these sets.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

F

160 speed ev's get you to 266 like I suggested earlier. I dunno. I feel like if I switch this set that's when I'm suddenly going to hit a rash of games where I need to outspeed Mega-Luc as he evolves. I never run LO variants (maybe that's a fault of mine, but substitute is too brilliant on him IMO) so missing out on the ohko always pisses me off. That being said 252 special attack with a neutral nature only gets you a 25% chance w/o rocks and a 44% with. Maybe a positive nature would be better, but I always feel like fusion bolt is lacking a little power on these sets.

Fusion Bolt does lack power; even with Life Orb, it cannot even 2HKO Blissey, but Dragon Claw fails too but Fusion Bolt has better supereffective coverage.

 

[Ogami]

Yeah I haven't been using a dragon stab on him for a while since like you said, dragon claw doesn't hit that much harder than fusion bolt and electric is a key piece of his coverage. Outrage is the only dragon stab that stands out for its BP but I'm not a fan of that this gen for obvious reasons. I guess I'll just have to do some testing with this new set. As I prefer balanced teams, I suppose its speed issues can be mitigated by pairing him with appropriate defensive measures.

 

[Clair]

I've always had more success with regular Kyurem than Kyu-B to be honest. If you're running Sub / Ice Beam / Earth Power / Fusion Bolt anyway, which is definitely his most successful set in this metagame, I'd argue that Kyurem is at least worth consideration given its 10 extra SpAtk, not having to split its EV's, and being able to SubRoost with Pressure to handle many potential checks and accumulating residual damage. Kyu-B, on the other hand, has Fusion Bolt plus TeraVolt, which is really only notable against M-Venu with Sludge Bomb, SpDef Skarm, or bulky Waters with Roar; as well as some added unpredictability and 10 more base defense.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

I've always had more success with regular Kyurem than Kyu-B to be honest. If you're running Sub / Ice Beam / Earth Power / Fusion Bolt anyway, which is definitely his most successful set in this metagame, I'd argue that Kyurem is at least worth consideration given its 10 extra SpAtk, not having to split its EV's, and being able to SubRoost with Pressure to handle many potential checks and accumulating residual damage. Kyu-B, on the other hand, has Fusion Bolt plus TeraVolt, which is really only notable against M-Venu with Sludge Bomb, SpDef Skarm, or bulky Waters with Roar; as well as some added unpredictability and 10 more base defense.

An uninvested Fusion Bolt is just as powerful as Conkeldurr's Iron Fist ThunderPunch:

0 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 172-203 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 172-203 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's some impressive neutral power, although Kyurem-B would best Ice Beam the Skarmory.

The 40 extra base attack allow Kyurem-B to more effectively threaten Water types and kill weakened Chansey and Fairy types.

 

[Ogami]

Clair I think you're forgetting about earthpower hitting rotom-W with Teravolt. That alone is huge, and enough of a selling point to choose B, but there is more. As mentioned some time previously in this thread, the ability to threaten both Mega-Venasuar and Rotom-W can be a great asset to a team. There are other small niches that Teravolt provides, but it's the ability to dismantle common defensive cores that makes Kyurem-B shine. Without Teravolt this becomes much harder. Besides, do you really think +10 in Special attack is worth -40 in attack? Fusion bolt is a key attacking move not only because it provides good coverage but because it is often the solo physical move hitting certain things on their weaker side. This cannot always rely on super effective coverage and so that power drop is more than noticeable. I suppose if your goal is to blizzard spam then Kyurem is the more solid choice, but otherwise I have to say it seems to me that Kyurem-B holds all of the cards over Kyurem. I don't think that Kyurem's typing is good enough to pull off more defensive builds ala subroosting without rain teams running rampant so this niche also seems a bit sub par.

 

[Clair]

Hitting Rotom-W is pretty insignificant when you can simply set up a Sub against it and 3HKO with Ice Beam. If Rotom stays in, the only way for that matchup to end is with a dead Rotom and a Kyurem at full health with an intact Sub. I think my point stands; Kyurem-B is superior against Sludge Bomb Venusaur (if it lacks Poison STAB, Venusaur is setup fodder for regular Kyu), some bulky Waters and the most specially leaning walls, but SubRoost with Pressure is immensely valuable and gives regular Kyurem a substantial niche. Unless I was weak to one of the mentioned threats, I'd personally always use it over the Sub-3 attacks Kyu-B.

 

[Punchshroom]

Hitting Rotom-W is pretty insignificant when you can simply set up a Sub against it and 3HKO with Ice Beam. If Rotom stays in, the only way for that matchup to end is with a dead Rotom and a Kyurem at full health with an intact Sub. I think my point stands; Kyurem-B is superior against Sludge Bomb Venusaur (if it lacks Poison STAB, Venusaur is setup fodder for regular Kyu), some bulky Waters and the most specially leaning walls, but SubRoost with Pressure is immensely valuable and gives regular Kyurem a substantial niche. Unless I was weak to one of the mentioned threats, I'd personally always use it over the Sub-3 attacks Kyu-B.

SubRoost Pressure Kyurem plays differently from mixed Kyurem-B. One can stall out such attacks as Stone Edge, Close Combat, and Gyro Ball; the other wallbreaks almost everything outside of physically defensive Sylveon or specially defensive Clefable.

 

[BlackSIlk90]

I I find no reason o stop running the set I used in BW2:

Kyurem-B@Leftovers
Lonely:Teravolt
56 HP 76 Attack 138 SP.Atk 240 Speed
- Substitute
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam
- Outrage

240 Speed EVs gives me 286 speed which is 1 point higher than similar builds of Kyurem-B, this allows me to get behind a Sub or outright KO with Outrage, protecting me from non-prankster WOW is also helpful.. Fusion Bolt at most 2HKOs the relevant fairy threats being Togekiss and Azumarril.

76+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 223-264 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers. recovery.
76+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 276-326 (73.7 - 87.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.
76+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 318-376 (78.7 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Even though most Azumarill only run around 164 HP, in order to out-speed Jellicent.
76+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 350-412 (117.4 - 138.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Though no one in their right mind would switch anything into CB Talonflame unless it resists. Though non-boosted SB Brave Bird does a little over 50%.
76+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 286-337 (109.1 - 128.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO. While 3 attacks Gengar relies on Focus Miss for the OHKO, or Dazzling Gleam to 2HKO.
138 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 508-604 (156.7 - 186.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Teravolt plows through WeakNite.

Now for defensive stars.

138 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 171-202 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
138 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 324-384 (86.6 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
138 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 218-258 (59.8 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. In return Giga Drain does a paltry ~20%, and if you're behind a Sub, it can't touch you with Sleep Powder or Leech Seed.
76+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Trevenant: 297-351 (79.4 - 93.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Subbing first blocks ALL of the ghost-tree's moves, barring Phantom Force which you can predict around anyway.
76+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 237-280 (58.6 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Not that you will see it much, it needs Psychic to break the Sub, and it's other moves are blocked by the Sub.
76+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 430-507 (60.2 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
76+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 313-370 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. God forbid the Eviolite was knocked off earlier in the match.

 

[Ogami]

That's a really nice set. Do you ever find yourself missing earth power?

 

[SpaceFlare]

Since it dents Rotom-W really hard already, I suppose the only thing that he'd miss Earth Power for is opposing Heatran.

 

[mrglass]

Why is this guy even allowed in OU. I know it has a lot of drawbacks, but nothing with that kind of bulk and base 170 attack is fair.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Why is this guy even allowed in OU. I know it has a lot of drawbacks, but nothing with that kind of bulk and base 170 attack is fair.

Grammer Nazi me wants to ask why there's no question mark after the first sentance.
Regular me wants to point out that if it were really so OP, then more people would use it. Most arguments against his legality were beaten down last gen, and with fairies, its arguably worse off. Its changes are that its worse offensively, as any fairy can wall outrage, so it basically can't run that attack anymore. It's a little better off defensively, as faster dragons and fighting type moves are less common, but its hardly a wall with its only above average bulk. It takes a lot of hits with that speed, so there's not much to say besides its not as bad as you make it sound

 

[Jin White]

Grammer Nazi me wants to ask why there's no question mark after the first sentance.

>Grammer
>Sentance

You've got to be shitting me. Read a book.

mrglass - the drawbacks are definitely there, as you said. Its typing means rocks and priority handle it quickly. Some of the most common sets (216+ SpAtk Ice Beam / Fusion Bolt / Earth Power / Sub) are actually walled by Chansey; BlackSIlk90's sexy EV spread breaks Chansey but can't always beat Heatran. Choice Banded dragons lost some of their bite this gen thanks to the new dragon immunity, and Kyurem-B lacks the physical movepool to abuse its 170 attack stat outside Dragon STAB + Fusion Bolt.

If he's got you down, grab a Ferrothorn with Gyro Ball and you'll feel better.

That said he's definitely an overlooked beast, inexplicably (UU usage!!) and is a huge threat despite its flaws; don't get me wrong!

 

[PenguinKnight]

This thing being in UU just blows my mind to no end.

 

[Ogami]

I have no idea why this thing is UU. I really feel like more than usage stats should be used to determine that. I mean come on. UU? Latias is there too. What?

Hopefully the both of them will leave soon enough cause that's just silly. The biggest flaw I've found with KyuremB is it's speed tier combined with rocks weakness, which goes a very long way to making it a very manageable threat for most well constructed teams. Base stats are not everything, and KyuremB definitely has enough flaws to balance that attack stat. It's actually a bit silly to me complaining about KyuremB but not saying a peep about Mega-Heracross, Mega-Mawile, Mega-Medicham and Mega Lucario who all have raw offensive power that rival or beat KyuremB who is often forced to split its offenses and therefore weaker in a vacuum.

 

[Machi]

Why is this guy even allowed in OU. I know it has a lot of drawbacks, but nothing with that kind of bulk and base 170 attack is fair.

Simply compare Kyurem-B to Kyurem-W available movepool that compliment their dominant offense and you'll quickly understand why Kyurem-B is allowed while W is not. Of coure Kyu-B does have other flaws but his physical movepool being so barren in comparison to his special pool has always been his biggest flaw, preventing you really from utilizing that 170 Atk stat (less so now with Dragon attacks being less spammable).

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

>Grammer
>Sentance

You've got to be shitting me. Read a book.

mrglass - the drawbacks are definitely there, as you said. Its typing means rocks and priority handle it quickly. Some of the most common sets (216+ SpAtk Ice Beam / Fusion Bolt / Earth Power / Sub) are actually walled by Chansey; BlackSIlk90's sexy EV spread breaks Chansey but can't always beat Heatran. Choice Banded dragons lost some of their bite this gen thanks to the new dragon immunity, and Kyurem-B lacks the physical movepool to abuse its 170 attack stat outside Dragon STAB + Fusion Bolt.

If he's got you down, grab a Ferrothorn with Gyro Ball and you'll feel better.

That said he's definitely an overlooked beast, inexplicably (UU usage!!) and is a huge threat despite its flaws; don't get me wrong!

no, grammer is correct. As for the sentance, dude, I was trolling. Also, what is this book you speak of?

Plus, why is everyone talking about UU stats? He's BL now

 

[vonK]

I have no idea why this thing is UU. I really feel like more than usage stats should be used to determine that. I mean come on. UU? Latias is there too. What?

Hopefully the both of them will leave soon enough cause that's just silly. The biggest flaw I've found with KyuremB is it's speed tier combined with rocks weakness, which goes a very long way to making it a very manageable threat for most well constructed teams. Base stats are not everything, and KyuremB definitely has enough flaws to balance that attack stat. It's actually a bit silly to me complaining about KyuremB but not saying a peep about Mega-Heracross, Mega-Mawile, Mega-Medicham and Mega Lucario who all have raw offensive power that rival or beat KyuremB who is often forced to split its offenses and therefore weaker in a vacuum.

He's not UU anymore (kyurem that is). Also you can run a pretty good offensive set with fusion bolt/Iron head/Outrage(or dragon claw) while keeping ice beam for coverage. Also all of those are Megas which means there is an opportunity cost to using them, and that they can't use choice scarf/band/LO to boost themselves further. When you factor in the item Kyurem is stronger than M-Heracross and is comparable to Medicham, Medicham has more base power and speed not factoring in an item along with bullet punch and drain punch, whereas Kyurem has an item along with mixed attacking options and is less predictable.

 

[BlackSIlk90]

I find Kyurem is like any decent character, extremely deadly in the right hands. Leave the revenge killing to Azumarill and Talonflame. Kyube is wallbreaker. Who can potentially sweep late game

 

[Ogami]

Vonk: Well that's good (the UU thing). I get your points but none of that was really my point. It simply seemed silly to me to complain about kyurem-B based on its attack stat. Clearly he is a different pokemon than those megas with different qualities, since he is in fact a different pokemon. I simply brought them up as other examples of pokemon with powerful initial attacking capabilities questioning the logic of only complaining about kyuremB. I really don't have any interest in comparing them beyond that point.

also, I really don't think kyuremB is that hard to predict. It's got about two usable physical attacks and about four special ones. I've never argued against his viability, in fact I've been vocal about how dangerous he is, but unpredictable is no longer one of his strong suits. With the weakening of outrage and therefore band/scarfed sets its pretty easy to know what he's gonna do imo

 

[PrincessDerpy]

And yet it remains no less of a pain in the ass to deal with because dealing with him is binary. Either you have a mon that can kill him before he kills them or you don't. He doesn't care about statusers because of sub, so it comes down to murder power in the end. And he has enough power in his coverage move (or moves if you run the special variant...) that mons aiming to absorb his STABs may not enjoy what they receive.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

I personally use this set:

Kyurem-B @ Expert Belt
Ability: Terravolt
Nature: Naive
116 Atk/252 Sp. Atk/140 Spe
- Dragon Claw
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam

Why the Speed, you might ask? I have enough Speed to outrun Max Speed Heatran AND Max Speed Rotom-W, of course! With those two now having problems switching in (and also allowing me to avoid a burn from either Lava Plume or Will-O-Wisp), I can now break at least two Pokemon. This set has Expert Belt to fake a Choice Item and then devastate. Example: I took Heatran out with Earth Power and they Revenge Switched with their Dragonite. I used Ice Beam and now Kyurem-B is 2-0 already in the match. The team I built has Status and Hazard support, as well as Wish Support (the team in general is semi-stall with a Wall Breaker to get past some more difficult walls and tanks) and Spin Support, so survivability is typically no problem. I needed something to destroy and devastate walls, and so I threw Kyurem-B in the team and I've had some success.

 

[Pyritie]

Why is this guy even allowed in OU. I know it has a lot of drawbacks, but nothing with that kind of bulk and base 170 attack is fair.

he has zero useful physical ice moves

can't believe he still didn't get icicle crash, ice punch, or even ice shard while other pokemon got updated move pools, like entei's sacred fire

 

[PrincessDerpy]

He doesn't need useful physical ice moves. The targets you want to kill with ice die to Beam currently and some edge cases get bounced by his Dragon STAB or Fusion Bolt. I can't think of many cases where a bit of extra juice on the Ice STAB nets you a 2HKO you can't get any other way.