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Kyurem
- Thread starter Aerrow
- Start date
This thing is just sad. Every set it can run is completely outclassed by another dragon, be it garchomp, mence, sazandora or latis.
There is never an objective reason to use Kyumeru.
Terrible defensive typing is the worst part, especially with everyone running priority fighting to kill dory.
I tested Kurimugan after Kyumeru and Kuri was much more effective. It's at the bottom of the dragon barrel.
There is never an objective reason to use Kyumeru.
Terrible defensive typing is the worst part, especially with everyone running priority fighting to kill dory.
I tested Kurimugan after Kyumeru and Kuri was much more effective. It's at the bottom of the dragon barrel.
Strangely enough, I haven't been seeing much Ice Shards flying around, so Kyuremu's Ice neutrality looks rather meh. One thing it can do is wall Starmie, and also...
Well, that's all I can think of. What else can it actually counter??? Salamence was a surefire Lucario switch-in, Latias and Latios can wall bulky waters with Calm Mind, Garchomp can take down non-Spec'd Heatran, Flygon resists Edgequake, Bulky DD Dragonite can set up in the face of non-STAB Ice Beams, Kurimungan has decent physical bulk AND Rough Skin, heck, even Altaria can serve as a weather counter at times.
Well, that's all I can think of. What else can it actually counter??? Salamence was a surefire Lucario switch-in, Latias and Latios can wall bulky waters with Calm Mind, Garchomp can take down non-Spec'd Heatran, Flygon resists Edgequake, Bulky DD Dragonite can set up in the face of non-STAB Ice Beams, Kurimungan has decent physical bulk AND Rough Skin, heck, even Altaria can serve as a weather counter at times.
Far more harder than I think? Where does the 'think' come in? This thing has never been a threat to me, and it was junk while i tested it. While Kyumeru did barely anything, Kuri spread paralysis around while scouting with dragon tail and not being burdened by the worst defensive type in the game.
You also missed the key point: every set it can run is completely outclassed by another dragon. There is never a reason to use Kyumeru unless you're playing favorites. It's even outclassed as a steel lure. Kyu and Zone share a fighting weakness.
You also missed the key point: every set it can run is completely outclassed by another dragon. There is never a reason to use Kyumeru unless you're playing favorites. It's even outclassed as a steel lure. Kyu and Zone share a fighting weakness.
Let us take a look at this, then. Just humour me.
Kyuremu has 95 base speed. This outspeeds 538 of 663 Pokémon, forms included. It also outspeeds all other dragons except Rayquaza, which it ties with; Salamence and Palkia, who have base 100, and Garchomp, who has base 102. Of these, Palkia is the best at running a special set, with a massive 150 SpA, while Rayquaza is typically best with a Physical set, with 150 Atk.
I may have missed something, but it appears that Kyuremu has the highest base HP of any Dragon, good Defenses, and a workable movepool. Yes, there are Dragons with higher Attack. There are dragons with higher SpA. However, assuming that Zekrom and Rayquaza are banished to Uber this generation and Kyuremu is not, the only dragons with a higher offensive stat are Dragonite with 134 Atk, Salamence with 135, and Ononokusu with 147. And none of these have an amazing base 130 SpA; in fact, running a special Ononokusu is probably the worst possible option.
Oh no, Kyuremu is priority weak! This may be news to you, but Dragonite and Salamence are also priority weak - in particular a x4 weakness to Ice Shard. I think I'd rather trade a x4 weakness to one of the most common types in the game for a x2 to another common type and a x2 to Steel.
With it's base 130 SpA, it can easily run HP [Fire] to get rid of Scizor, while Bullet Punch will fail to OHKO, ever. Unless you're running min/min 0IV Hasty defenses and it crits or something. Frozen World can cripple switch-ins by dropping their speed a stage, and at base 65 power it is workable. You are still likely better off with Ice Beam, but a stab move that always lowers speed is something no other dragon has.
A lack of Sleep Talk does admittedly hurt it defensively without access to Roost. However, saying something is bulky is not saying that walling with it is the best option. You can run it defensively, but at least in that regard it is outclassed by Dragonite. Though I suppose Kyuremu, being neutral to Ice, would be better defensively on the special side.
You seem to be suffering from the same issues as the people who dismiss Ononokusu as overhyped have: You are running it wrong. Kyuremu isn't a wall or support Pokémon, it is a revenge killer that can continue to do things after it has revenged. Forget Dragon Pulse, run Draco Meteor in that slot. It was the same problem with Ononokusu, people were leading with a late-game sweeper and complaining that it wasn't working. It's like trying to run a Curse set on Venusaur, it can, but there are many, many better options to use Curse. Stop looking at what other Dragons can do better than Kyuremu, and look at what Kyuremu does best.
Shandera can trap steels when it gets Shadow Tag too, but even assuming it never gets it, which steel type besides Scizor uses Fighting moves? Zone takes steel moves easily, with its 4x resistance, and can also take rock moves well. Shandera also KOs Loom trying to Mach Punch it, when it gets Shadow Tag. In any case, a Focus Blast or HP Fire does excellent damage to many steels, even ones that are neutral to it.
Assuming max special attack without a boosting nature:
Focus Blast does 46.1% - 54.2% to CB Scizor, and HP Fire OHKOs
Focus Blast does 39.3% - 46.4% to LeadGross, and HP Fire does 46.2% - 54.4%
Focus Blast does 85.4% - 100.9% to Choice Scarf Heatran
Although Focus Blast may not do too much, HP Fire does a significant amount to common bulky steels. Those calcs above were without a boosting item, so Kyuremu could easily run a Substitute set using Leftovers and 2HKO steels switching in. That's not even mentioning max sp.atk specs, which does 75.2% - 88.6% to Scizor with FB, and 75.3% - 89% to LeadGross with HP Fire. Although the lack of Fire Blast hampers it, Kyuremu can get past steels with HP Fire.
Obviously, Scizor and Breloom hit it with priority, so substitute can help to alleviate that, allowing Kyuremu to get a free hit on those priority abusers and KO them. Specs sets can also deal excellent damage with Focus Blast or HP Fire on the switch in. Outside of its weakness to Mach Punch and Bullet Punch, which it can alleviate with a substitute set or good prediction on a specs set, Kyuremu has excellent bulk. It's faster than almost all Fighting or Steel types, and the faster ones are all frail enough to be OHKOed, with the exception of Kerudio. A substitute set allows Kyuremu to take advantage of that and its excellent offenses to KO or substantially weaken its counters. Kyuremu's excellent bulk, which can helped by running a spinner, allows it to have a niche among dragons as a slower, yet hard-hitting attacker.
EDIT: ninja'd
Assuming max special attack without a boosting nature:
Focus Blast does 46.1% - 54.2% to CB Scizor, and HP Fire OHKOs
Focus Blast does 39.3% - 46.4% to LeadGross, and HP Fire does 46.2% - 54.4%
Focus Blast does 85.4% - 100.9% to Choice Scarf Heatran
Although Focus Blast may not do too much, HP Fire does a significant amount to common bulky steels. Those calcs above were without a boosting item, so Kyuremu could easily run a Substitute set using Leftovers and 2HKO steels switching in. That's not even mentioning max sp.atk specs, which does 75.2% - 88.6% to Scizor with FB, and 75.3% - 89% to LeadGross with HP Fire. Although the lack of Fire Blast hampers it, Kyuremu can get past steels with HP Fire.
Obviously, Scizor and Breloom hit it with priority, so substitute can help to alleviate that, allowing Kyuremu to get a free hit on those priority abusers and KO them. Specs sets can also deal excellent damage with Focus Blast or HP Fire on the switch in. Outside of its weakness to Mach Punch and Bullet Punch, which it can alleviate with a substitute set or good prediction on a specs set, Kyuremu has excellent bulk. It's faster than almost all Fighting or Steel types, and the faster ones are all frail enough to be OHKOed, with the exception of Kerudio. A substitute set allows Kyuremu to take advantage of that and its excellent offenses to KO or substantially weaken its counters. Kyuremu's excellent bulk, which can helped by running a spinner, allows it to have a niche among dragons as a slower, yet hard-hitting attacker.
EDIT: ninja'd
The two steel/fight types we have now often carry fighting moves, and alot of steel types pack superpower anyway, sometimes hammer arm.
Revenge killer? Garchomp and Salamence both have higher speed, equal or higher attack, better typing and wider movepools. Focusing on what Kyumeru is good at while ignoring the plethora of better options isn't the best competitive strategy imo.
Also, talking about focus blast sounds like desperation. It's completely unreliable.
Revenge killer? Garchomp and Salamence both have higher speed, equal or higher attack, better typing and wider movepools. Focusing on what Kyumeru is good at while ignoring the plethora of better options isn't the best competitive strategy imo.
Also, talking about focus blast sounds like desperation. It's completely unreliable.
Spamming Blizzard in Doubles/Triples. Abomasnow shuts down SS/Rain/Sun teams while also making Kyuremu's Blizzard 100% accurate. Considering Kyuremu has the most powerful Blizzard in the game, as well as the fact the majority of the popular Pokemon in Doubles/Triples are Ice weak and a great deal of them are also outsped by Kyuremu; I'd certainly say that is indeed a reason to use Kyuremu.
Granted this discussion is mostly focused on singles, but I don't see why Kyuremu's application in other modes of play should be disregarded. Especially when it arguably has much greater use there.
@Green Mage: Did you even read my post? Besides being susceptible to Focus Blast and HP Fire, Kobaruon (which no one uses anyway) and Scizor are the only two steel types that carry fighting moves. Lucario does too, but it's so frail that it not only dies to HP Fire or Focus Blast, but is also outsped and 2HKOed by Kyuremu's Ice Beam/Dragon Pulse. Also, Shandera removes that fighting weakness.
Kyuremu's bulk is noticeably better than Celebi's, which is quite useful for a scarfer. That bulk allows it take even a boosted hit. Case in point: with some defensive EVs, it can even survive a +2 Doryuuzu's Rock Slide.
If Focus Blast was completely unreliable, why do Gengar, Alakazam, Infernape, and Rankurusu use it so often?
Kyuremu's bulk is noticeably better than Celebi's, which is quite useful for a scarfer. That bulk allows it take even a boosted hit. Case in point: with some defensive EVs, it can even survive a +2 Doryuuzu's Rock Slide.
If Focus Blast was completely unreliable, why do Gengar, Alakazam, Infernape, and Rankurusu use it so often?
If all the viable movesets of a pokemon are entirely outclassed by movesets of other pokemon, there really isn't any reason to use it, even if it was decent for all of its movesets.
That being said, the Frozen World lead set seems like the best option for Kyuremu to distinguish himself from the others. Unfortunately, I've found its poor defensive typing to reduce its bulk too much even if you haven't yet been hit by entry hazards. And like people have said, the accuracy of Focus Blast is too low for relying on it.
I congratulate Gamefreak for creating a cover legendary (or at least a part of a high-BST legendary trio) that struggles even in OU, even if it was likely by accident. You don't see that every day.
SupremeDirt's post explains exactly what advantages Kyuremu has over other pokemon; I suggest you read all of it. Also, Frozen World doesn't necessarily have to be used on a lead set. It works well on mixed set too, allowing Kyuremu to outspeed and KO whatever switches in. It would also be good to note that Kyuremu has better bulk than Sazandora and hits a bit harder with its Draco Meteor.
^this, you take the words out of my mouth. Not matter how good you want to make to look focus blast or HP fire, both are still subpar option, dragonite fireblast hits much harder, kyuremu can get past through steel, but other dragons do it much better and in a more reliable way. Bulk is also not a important factor with that typing and lack of reliable recovey move. If you want to make kyurmu works you need:
- Spinner
- Steel Traper
- A Blissey killer (if you are running only special)
- Bulky water killer (mixed kyuremu cant beat the most important bulky waters)
Half of your team or more have to be focused on supporting kyurem , thats lame if you take in count other dragon can do the same as him but better and without that retarded amount of support, giving your team more possibilities
It may suggest that Kyuremu has better bulk when you look at the stats, but when you take into account all the other factors, I honestly feel like Sazandora has better bulk, despite having 33 less base HP.
My reason for this is that:
- Kyuremu is SR weak, Sazandora is not
- Kyuremu is vulnerable to Spikes & Toxic Spikes, Sazandora is immune
- Kyuremu has 0 immunities, Sazandora has 2
- Kyuremu has 3 resistances, Sazandora has 6 to very common types
- Kyuremu has 4 weaknesses, Sazandora has 3
What I'm trying to say is that Sazandora's typing is honestly so much better than Kyuremu's that it seriously makes Kyuremu's higher base HP matter a lot less. Yes, Kyuremu can hit very hard, but he only has 5 more base Special Attack than Sazandora. When you take into account that Sazandora can switch in way easier and take less damage from many common moves, Sazandora just seems like the better candidate for bulky offense since he can just deal more overall damage than Kyuremu can throughout the match.
Seriously, if Kyuremu just had Recover, he'd be awesome without a doubt. With Recover he'd be able to get rid of the damage from the Stealth Rock, and be able to set up chunky subs and keep a nice cycle going. Right now, his best bet is that anti-lead set, which doesn't even stop Deoxys-S, or the Mischievous Heart users from doing their job.
I guess Kyuremu is a nice counter to Rain teams though, which is a plus since they seem to be everywhere.
Well, i know Gengar and Alakazam don't have any other options for a fighting attack (bar HP fighting). Why would Infernape use Focus Blast, it has better Fighting options. As for Rankurusu, I haven't used him, but i'm assuming his reason for using FB is the same as Gengar and 'Zam. Pokemon only use FB if they have no other options.
Kyurem is fairly bulky, but even if he survives a hit, will he be able to OHKO in return?
So has anyone found the most effective set for this guy? I really want to use him, but he brings me nothing but disappointment each time.
It's clear that Frozen World is one of its few unique advantages but I'd usually rather take Fire Blast, Earthquake and so on.
The biggest problem will be actually getting Kyuremu in without being trashed by entry hazards while avoiding priority and your crippling weaknesses, not to mention other Dragons outspeeding you. That's why the lead position worked best when I tried using it, even if I'd still prefer other leads.
That's not counting its type and damage from entry hazards, which are arguably very common. For most practical purposes, I've found other dragons to last longer. Access to Fire Blast and Surf is usually more relevant for special attacking than a slightly smaller SpA and if I really needed the extra 5 base SpA (which I usually wouldn't), I could just use Latios.
You just described Salamence, Dragonite, Latias, Latios, and Sazandora. All five have better coverage and lack the crippling ice type, and four of them are faster.
And again, when you're defending a pokemon by saying it learns focus blast, that pokemon is in bad shape. Gengar and Alakazam run it because there are no better options. Infernape doesn't run it at all.
I've been using a scarfed Kyurem in ubers to great effect. It works especially well with Shandera as it does tend to lure in Scizor.
Kyurem @ Choice Scarf
Lonely|Pressure
124 Atk/174 SAtk/212 Spe
Ice Beam
Draco Meteor
Focus Blast
Outrage/Shadow Ball
212 Speed EVs allows you to hit 418, outspeeding Timid ScarfTran. 124 Atk and Lonely is necessary for scoring the 2HKO on Blissey, but if you feel Blissey is better taken care of elsewhere, you can use Shadow Ball for more coverage.
Other useful teammates include Forretress, Scizor and Heatran.
Kyurem @ Choice Scarf
Lonely|Pressure
124 Atk/174 SAtk/212 Spe
Ice Beam
Draco Meteor
Focus Blast
Outrage/Shadow Ball
212 Speed EVs allows you to hit 418, outspeeding Timid ScarfTran. 124 Atk and Lonely is necessary for scoring the 2HKO on Blissey, but if you feel Blissey is better taken care of elsewhere, you can use Shadow Ball for more coverage.
Other useful teammates include Forretress, Scizor and Heatran.
@Bologo: I hadn't thought about Spikes and Toxic Spikes (I feel so dumb) and hadn't fully considered the separate typings. When considering the many resistances that Sazandora has, compared to the few that Kyuremu has, it's true that Sazandora does possess better defensive traits.
@Gah777 and Green Mage: Infernape does use Focus Blast on its NP set quite a bit. It uses it because CC doesn't have the same power that an NP Focus Blast does; Focus Blast allows it to get past bulky waters and Blissey, and it can only KO Blissey with CC. Also, Kyuremu's only option besides HP Fire is Focus Blast. How does that differentiate it from Gengar or Zam, who use Focus Blast often and well?
Also, Ice is one of the best attacking types in the game. Although it hurts defensively, it only helps on the offensive, which is where Kyuremu tends to play.
@iiMKUltra: What does Kyuremu do for your team specifically in PO's Uber play?
@Gah777 and Green Mage: Infernape does use Focus Blast on its NP set quite a bit. It uses it because CC doesn't have the same power that an NP Focus Blast does; Focus Blast allows it to get past bulky waters and Blissey, and it can only KO Blissey with CC. Also, Kyuremu's only option besides HP Fire is Focus Blast. How does that differentiate it from Gengar or Zam, who use Focus Blast often and well?
Also, Ice is one of the best attacking types in the game. Although it hurts defensively, it only helps on the offensive, which is where Kyuremu tends to play.
@iiMKUltra: What does Kyuremu do for your team specifically in PO's Uber play?
Is not a sweeper, is not a wallbreaker, is not a revenge killer, is not a wall, wtf he is? Besides being a decent ( not good, just decent) anti-lead
Rapid spinner (1), steel trapper (2), a wall breaker (3), kyuremu (4). 4/6 for a pokemon incapable of sweeping and easy to revenge kill with many common pokemons. What you call team synergy ( i call it BS) is "kyuremu cant kill steel so he need support" no team synergy, and bad support specialy when you share common and important weakness with your "team" (also just for the record scizor 2hko shandera with bullet punch after SR, there is your big sinergy).
Now subtitute kyuremu name with every single dragon with a decent special attack, and in some case substitute the part where steel can switch in with nothing can switch in and whe are done. You "perks" about kyuremu are shared with every single dragon, while others dragon have perks he dont.
Without LO you cant beat common bulky waters and if you dont hit them with draco meteor in the switch you lose, and what happen if you use DM on a steel or blissey? you do jack shit. So you must use 3 moves (frozen world, DM and Outrage) at the same time with LO to try to beat your counters, kinda easy right?. Also bulky waters dont need to touch you when they can stall you to dead with LO recoil and if you dont have LO they can easily attack you till the moment you die, and lol at what you said about garchomp, now the facts before talking, garchomp were specially banned by the SD+ yache berry set (and the perfect coverage with his STAB + fire fang), mixed garcomp never were considerated broken at all (it was the less used set).
Revenging; I won't reveal much more for obvious reasons.cosmicexplorer said:
In terms of specific KOs, it checks: non-Scarf Palkia, Dialga, some CM Arceus, Giratina(O), Rayquaza, Kyogre, Groudon, NP Darkrai, Reshiram, Zekrom, Lugia, Lati@s, a few non-Uber dragons and probably a few more I can't think of right now.
Ho-oh and Sazando are the only real problems.
I don't how many people bashing Kyuremu have actually tried using him.
Sigh, and I would think that you'll be one of those people advocating for Ho-oh being tested in 4th gen OU?? Many of the arguments I have seen from people bashing Kyumeru can easily be applied to 4th gen Ho-oh. "Oh look Ho-oh Stealth Rock weak, weak to Tyranitar and is slower than a lot of dangerous OU Pokemon, let's Suspect test her" (This was before Ho-oh got Brave Bird by the by). The idea that Kyuremu would fall into UU or even BL is really, quite ludicrous.
Sigh, and I would think that you'll be one of those people advocating for Ho-oh being tested in 4th gen OU?? Many of the arguments I have seen from people bashing Kyumeru can easily be applied to 4th gen Ho-oh. "Oh look Ho-oh Stealth Rock weak, weak to Tyranitar and is slower than a lot of dangerous OU Pokemon, let's Suspect test her" (This was before Ho-oh got Brave Bird by the by). The idea that Kyuremu would fall into UU or even BL is really, quite ludicrous.
I've used/use him. I've tried a scarf and an anti-lead set. The anti-lead set does pretty well for the most part, but idk... As much as I like this guy he isn't very threatening or helpful.
I agree that he probably won't end up in UU, but OU is definitely a possibility.
...hm.
Kyurem: Rock, Dragon, Ice, Steel weak
Sazandora: Dragon, Ice, Fighting, Bug weak
...looks to me like they both have four weaknesses. :0 Just sayin'. Oh and FYI, supereffective Bug STAB is bound to be much more common this generation, too.
I did use Kyuremu, like I mentioned already, so I'm not only theorizing. Still, it was accurately predicted that its type is defensively poor and its movepool shallow.
But if your stance is that you can't determine a pokemon's worth with theorizing alone, it's contradictory that you'd ban pokemon like Ho-oh based on theorizing without actually testing them. Why would Kyuremu have to be tested before being judged but Ho-oh not?
Actually Kyurem is neutral to Ice, but is weak to Fighting.