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Gen 4 Latias
- Thread starter BKC
- Start date
I agree with this completely. I personally think the DPP metagame is better than it was years ago. It allows for more creativity since the level in power is lower. There is much more ways to approach teambuilding.
Many players have been innovating new sets or using pokemon which never saw play years ago in the Latias/Mence metagame. Why? because the power level is lower and there is more room to be cute. Less of "This pokemon is really good, and I should strive to use it. It might not be the best single pokemon, but I will use it along the best pokemon since its just that good."
SpDef Gliscor, Crobat, Cradily, Quagsire, OTR Bronzong, Venusaur, Bold Reflect Starmie, Dugtrio, and Abomasnow are just some examples. What would Latias bring to the table for a better metagame? It isn't like Infernape is too hard to deal with and we need another check to it.
I know Spec'd Latias can be walled by Vaporeon + Skarmory, although that only applies to defensive teams. What about the bulky offensive teams? What about the standard offensive teams? Your best switch in is Scizor? Im pretty sure im going to win that game with Latias, if your best answer is honestly a Scizor.
Tyranitar is the best answer, and we shouldn't encourage more people to use it over steels. Steels are the best switch ins to dragons, and Dragonite, Kingdra, and Flygon get punished more by steels. Latias just switches out, then comes back in when the steel is gone. Scizor either gets nuked or HP Fired.
It is bad for teams that don't want to run Tyranitar, since SpDef Jirachi only forces Latias out and doesn't always fit on more frail teams. Especially since Latias can put a ton of pressure on most things except that SpDef Jirachi, and the Latias player is gonna pack SpDef Jirachi counters.
Latias kill things not named SpDef Jirachi. SpDef Jirachi? Send in your counters. Its a stalemate where Latias is one of the best pokemon for the job. Since its a dragon, and power creep its higher than what the metagame is used to.
It would make the metagame inherently more bulky, which is bad for metagame diversity. Can't use a SpDef Heatran on the more aggressively minded teams.
this metagame is fine and dp has been an 'old gen' for 2.5 years. as sir said, i have no idea why we are wanting to alter an already good metagame that has been untouched for almost three years
the latias metagame was much more centralized than what we have today and the only real reason dp could be thought of as stale is because of laziness. innovation is still pretty apparent (look at what panamaxis used in the dp ou tour finals) and i really see no problem with what we have at the moment
just posting my two cents to show theres not just a couple of people against this test
the latias metagame was much more centralized than what we have today and the only real reason dp could be thought of as stale is because of laziness. innovation is still pretty apparent (look at what panamaxis used in the dp ou tour finals) and i really see no problem with what we have at the moment
just posting my two cents to show theres not just a couple of people against this test
Sir said:
there's nothing 'wrong' with the meta but i believe latias was unfairly banned and since a lot of people agree i thought it'd be nice to give it a second chance. a suspect test would be fun and if latias turns out to be broken we don't unban it, no questions asked.Heist said:
1) salamence contributed to the metagame's centralization a lot more than latias
2) as mentioned in conflict's post, there were a ton of ways of dealing with latias that were just flat out ignored. oh shit, latias 2hkoed my scizor, better ban it!
edit @ younii: mence was voted on by the first smogon council, 8-1 in favor of banning (MoP was the only one who didn't want to ban it among guys like Earthworm, DarkLucario etc). latias was voted OU 4 times before it was banned.
p2 was cool way back when, but i'm not sure if it can survive sr + dmeteor + outrage.
Even ppl complaining on how hard MixMence was to predict; if my memories doesn't betray me, i'd pretty much say that Porygon2 was a very good reliable check being bale to survive 2 of his hits (bar unlucky very close damage roll) and either Twave/recover just after.
Anyway, i'd agree to retest both of the dragons since based on the "broken argument", i can see mons such as Infernape even more problematic then LatiMence were or would be.
But most of all, hasn't Salamence been banned by 9 very subjectives voter coucnil opinions even though the majority had expressed themselves to keep it OU as the precedent votes had showned us? (or was it latias, don't really remember very well).
Anyway, i'd agree to retest both of the dragons since based on the "broken argument", i can see mons such as Infernape even more problematic then LatiMence were or would be.
But most of all, hasn't Salamence been banned by 9 very subjectives voter coucnil opinions even though the majority had expressed themselves to keep it OU as the precedent votes had showned us? (or was it latias, don't really remember very well).
Salamence is much better than infernape raw power wise. Infernape needs 4 moves get get perfect coverage, Mix Mence can run Roost + 3 attacks and get the same. Salamence has great resistences and decent bulk with Intimidate. Salamence has Dragon Dance for unpredictability.
Porygon 2 lacks resistences, it doesn't really do too much besides sit there all day. Porygon 2 does well against anything it traces, but its a sitting duck against pokemon it doesn't. Such as LO Starmie, off Cune, Gengar, Celebi w Leaf Storm, Zapdos, Tyranitar, and so on.
Just because you can deal with Salamence doesn't mean it isn't broken btw. Mence is still the strongest thing, and it can still outplay and break your team with support over time. Quicker than you'd think if you get outplayed, which is easy if you don't have momentum.
i made this same point in the PO thread: pointing out that p2 counters mixmence in dp is like pointing out that lanturn or something like light screen max sdef blissey can wall kyogre in adv. very stupid and doesn't matter because those are not good team choices and if everyone used them it would be symptomatic of the fact that the pokemon they are designed to counter is overpowered and having a bad effect on the meta.
also if you think you're playing mixmence and it's ddmence or vice versa you are in deep shit (unless you're using p2 maybe...). infernape would need like 8 moveslots to have the crazy coverage mixmence has with 3, and salamence can wreck that hard with either of its 2 movesets. salamence is fucked up.
i also agree with the point that the metagame right now is completely fine but i am behind bkc on the point that it only seems reasonable to give latias a fair test without salamence in the game since it seems like that would be in line with the level of rigor that has typically been demanded for testing the viability of pokemon in dp and bw in the past. i would be fine whether it was tested or not i suppose, but i am also leaning a bit more toward "why not just test it?"
also if you think you're playing mixmence and it's ddmence or vice versa you are in deep shit (unless you're using p2 maybe...). infernape would need like 8 moveslots to have the crazy coverage mixmence has with 3, and salamence can wreck that hard with either of its 2 movesets. salamence is fucked up.
i also agree with the point that the metagame right now is completely fine but i am behind bkc on the point that it only seems reasonable to give latias a fair test without salamence in the game since it seems like that would be in line with the level of rigor that has typically been demanded for testing the viability of pokemon in dp and bw in the past. i would be fine whether it was tested or not i suppose, but i am also leaning a bit more toward "why not just test it?"
I honestly don't think we have the man power for this test. Especially since DPP is an old gen, and most of the good DPP players quit. There seems to be like only 5 top DPP players in this thread left and that is more of a council if anything.
We need enough players for a competitive suspect ladder. Otherwise voters who aren't knowledgable at DPP who just stole their friends team would get reqs and vote. This is okay in BW2 since the suspect ladder is usually very active, competitive, and you truly have to work hard to get your voting reqs.
It would make a lot of teams which were solid in the dragonless meta when DPP OU was active obsolete, and there will be no reliable way to test new teams for the new metagame since the ladder is always dead or full of bad players.
Are we really going to turn this into a new metagame, then have gen 6 come along too? Is that the best way to do smogon tour? At least gen 6 will be much easier to learn for newer players since it would be active.
Getting used to the new metagame if Latias gets unbanned is just an unneccessary chore. It would only benefit the players who constantly keep up with it.
We need enough players for a competitive suspect ladder. Otherwise voters who aren't knowledgable at DPP who just stole their friends team would get reqs and vote. This is okay in BW2 since the suspect ladder is usually very active, competitive, and you truly have to work hard to get your voting reqs.
It would make a lot of teams which were solid in the dragonless meta when DPP OU was active obsolete, and there will be no reliable way to test new teams for the new metagame since the ladder is always dead or full of bad players.
Are we really going to turn this into a new metagame, then have gen 6 come along too? Is that the best way to do smogon tour? At least gen 6 will be much easier to learn for newer players since it would be active.
Getting used to the new metagame if Latias gets unbanned is just an unneccessary chore. It would only benefit the players who constantly keep up with it.
we had a lot of dudes for an adv suspect test 2 years ago and it was a lot older than dpp is now. as for having enough willing people to play, i think that an official test that counts toward tiering contrib would motivate a lot more nigs to play and as a result it could spark some interest in dpp again. learning the new metagame isn't really a chore if you're competent. you could make/test new teams the same way you do now, test them with good players. also if dpp becomes more popular as a result of this test, it might become better, sort of like the po adv ladder!
though I'm of the opinion that if it's no longer the current metagame, don't fuck with it, however, since this is mainly a discussion thread, I always felt that Latias was fine the way it was, given it had Salamence in the metagame. The set I used to use was Draco / Surf / Tbolt / Roost, but only because I tended to use it as a generic attacker. There was definitely viability when it came down to what or wasn't actually usable. Latias had just the right weaknesses to match the potential of its power.
To add on to Conflict's reasoning of why he felt Latias was not bannable, these were just my observations about Latias during LatiMence that convinced me she wasn't really broken imo.
The issue I mostly found was four-slot move syndrome for its coverage since Steels were pretty common to have and also considering Draco's SAtk drop, I felt coverage was important to have in the long-run vs teams so that Latias would fulfill a better role. It either lacked a Heatran answer (Surf), Scizor answer (HP Fire), Tyranitar (Grass Knot), sustainability (Recover), Water-type answer, particularly Vaporeon, (Thunderbolt), or just lacked power (Draco Meteor). Trick/CM were just proponents that though harrassed stall better, didn't help in the long run vs its answers,
Its Speed was also only at 110, barely outspeeding Infernape, tying with Gengar, and slower than Azelf and the less common-then Raikou and Starmie. Most scarfed Pokemon aimed to outspeed these Pokemon around those Pokemon in addition to the +1 DDers, the most popular one that comes to mind is Jirachi as with its Elemental-punch coverage, it would already revenge the DDers (mence/gyara/dnite, so the scarfers would generally also be able to try to harrass the above Base 100-speeds, and Latias was not really out of the way of these Scarfers for it to not end up dying to it as much).
To add on to Conflict's reasoning of why he felt Latias was not bannable, these were just my observations about Latias during LatiMence that convinced me she wasn't really broken imo.
The issue I mostly found was four-slot move syndrome for its coverage since Steels were pretty common to have and also considering Draco's SAtk drop, I felt coverage was important to have in the long-run vs teams so that Latias would fulfill a better role. It either lacked a Heatran answer (Surf), Scizor answer (HP Fire), Tyranitar (Grass Knot), sustainability (Recover), Water-type answer, particularly Vaporeon, (Thunderbolt), or just lacked power (Draco Meteor). Trick/CM were just proponents that though harrassed stall better, didn't help in the long run vs its answers,
Its Speed was also only at 110, barely outspeeding Infernape, tying with Gengar, and slower than Azelf and the less common-then Raikou and Starmie. Most scarfed Pokemon aimed to outspeed these Pokemon around those Pokemon in addition to the +1 DDers, the most popular one that comes to mind is Jirachi as with its Elemental-punch coverage, it would already revenge the DDers (mence/gyara/dnite, so the scarfers would generally also be able to try to harrass the above Base 100-speeds, and Latias was not really out of the way of these Scarfers for it to not end up dying to it as much).
Yes, but the ADV suspect test wasn't nearly as big of a deal as this. Banning Baton Pass + Ingrain leads to very small metagame changes. We were able to afford some people who are ok at best at ADV to vote. Latias will change DPP OU a lot.
I don't think its the best idea to allow newer players who weren't involved with DPP 3 years ago to be making a metagame decision which was made 3 years ago. One suspect test just isn't the same as experiencing the actual Latias metagame as it was first hand.
I voted in BW UU, but I can honestly say im bad at that tier. I voted in little cup, but im bad there too. Anyone can get voting reqs for any given tier and not having a great amount of metagame knowledge and vote. That goes for me, and many other people who voted.
The only difference is DPP OU is a dead metagame with a smaller amount of discussion + activity than BW metagames have. The only high quality DPP games are usually in smogon tour or SPL. This makes the player pool much smaller, and the amount games to learn from smaller too.
Latias isn't that bad, salamence was the asshole. I don't mind Latias unbanned, it has a good number of checks: Scizor, Sp.Def Skarm, Jirachi, Blissey, Bronzong, SP.def Tran, Vaporeon, tyranitar
But I also have an arguement against latias, with the checks i mentioned above latias still has every chance to beat them because of how versatile it is and if the user predicts well with it. Draco Meteor Grass Knot HP Fire Life Orb was a popular set, and If used well it can beat Scizor, Skarm, Vaporeon, Tyranitar. CM Refresh beats bliss. Specs can KO Tran. Trick can cripple zong. So yeah i agree it's hard to play against, but it's nothing close to salamence.
Edit: Im saying this and i've played since the Garchomp days. And I still think Latias was not even close to how painful it was trying to face garchomp or salamence.
But I also have an arguement against latias, with the checks i mentioned above latias still has every chance to beat them because of how versatile it is and if the user predicts well with it. Draco Meteor Grass Knot HP Fire Life Orb was a popular set, and If used well it can beat Scizor, Skarm, Vaporeon, Tyranitar. CM Refresh beats bliss. Specs can KO Tran. Trick can cripple zong. So yeah i agree it's hard to play against, but it's nothing close to salamence.
Edit: Im saying this and i've played since the Garchomp days. And I still think Latias was not even close to how painful it was trying to face garchomp or salamence.
Just an observation. There is Drizzle ban discussions, Stealth Rock ban discussions, and now a Latias unban discussion.
Yet we have Landorus I. A seemingly bigger problem depending on view point. Easily the best pokemon in BW2 OU 2hkoing nearly the entire tier with little predicting, dancing around teams with U-Turn, making the metagame more centralized around Tyranitar + abusers.
Im pretty neutral on Landorus I since there is still pokemon like Thunderus T/Keldeo which increase Latias and Celebi usage to great levels, so it isn't just Landorus I as a culprit. Although it just seems a little skeptical to me.
Yet we have Landorus I. A seemingly bigger problem depending on view point. Easily the best pokemon in BW2 OU 2hkoing nearly the entire tier with little predicting, dancing around teams with U-Turn, making the metagame more centralized around Tyranitar + abusers.
Im pretty neutral on Landorus I since there is still pokemon like Thunderus T/Keldeo which increase Latias and Celebi usage to great levels, so it isn't just Landorus I as a culprit. Although it just seems a little skeptical to me.
I am saying Latias should not be a priority over greater problems in pokemon in general.
the problem is you are only looking at this from one angle.
salamence didn't contribute more to the metagame's centralization because defensively salamence walls almost nothing. the only notable things it really checked were lucario barely and heatran, whereas latias beats a whole host of things. salamence did have an extremely large influence on defensive choices but didn't hinder offensive threats as much as it could not really check them.
if you look at latias, its presence made zapdos and shaymin, among other threats, almost non-existent. the issue is that latias can switch-in on these guys easily while still having an incredible offensive presence compared to their usual counters. latias has an equal impact on offensive and defensive picks and centralises the defensive picks while limiting the amount of viable offensive options.
no clue what 2)'s relevance is...
i just feel like people are only looking at one side of the coin here
Landorus I deserving of ban or not is most definitly a bigger issue than Latias. Especially since banning Latias made the metagame more diverse, more balanced, and more fair. Even if not broken, we ban things which are detrimental to the metagame. We ban things which make the metagame worse. Deoxys D definitly wasn't broken inherently, but it was banned because it had a stigma against it. It was cheap, unfair to slower teams, and it faciliated sweepers a little too well. Was it broken? No. Did it affect the metagame negatively? Perhaps. Same thing goes for Baton Pass + Ingrain in ADV. It wasn't broken, but it didn't do anything good for the metagame and only brought detriment. Baton Pass wasn't even the best or most reliable strategy in ADV.
Landorus I is anything but fair. The reason why council won't test it is because we all know how suspect tests work. You ban one thing, another becomes broken. Plus its hard to single out Landorus I as a culprit. Since a great amount of pokemon used to check it also happen to check other important pokemon. People used to whine about Volcarona, Landorus I is better than Volcarona. Reward and utility wise. Utility meaning Volcarona needs considerable support, Landorus I supports himself a lot of the time.
It is hard to define broken in pokemon, which is another reason why that Landorus I test won't happen. Because it can be played around or has checks/shaky counters. Not because it 100% isn't broken, but there is too much controversy surrounding it.
Yes we can do two tests at once, but we are picking the lesser problem over a more concerning problem if there is no BW2 test. BW2 kind of sucks sometimes, but DPP is completely fine.
I honestly don't mind if Landorus I gets tested or not, but I don't see why we are trying to make such a huge deal about Latias being banned.
yeah heist that's a fair point. shaymin sucked with latias around, sure, but (specially)defensive zapdos was very good. the offensive sets were outclassed though, i'll give you that. also the ways of dealing with latias certainly aren't limited.
again i'm not trying to force latias to be unbanned. i just think that it'd be cool to give it a fair shot in a metagame without salamence. also a suspect test can raise dpp awareness and maybe more people will play it as a result!
again i'm not trying to force latias to be unbanned. i just think that it'd be cool to give it a fair shot in a metagame without salamence. also a suspect test can raise dpp awareness and maybe more people will play it as a result!
i think heist makes a fair argument. Lizardman too until he started talking about Landorus...
in all honesty, dpp ou is pretty good right now. testing Latias probably causes more trouble than it's worth. i'm not entirely convinced Latias would make the meta better either. maybe Latias shouldn't be banned, it's hard to say, but dpp is fun and competitive right now. id rather avoid trying to fix something that isn't broken given the circumstances.
i will say that the dpp lati/mence tour was a good time
in all honesty, dpp ou is pretty good right now. testing Latias probably causes more trouble than it's worth. i'm not entirely convinced Latias would make the meta better either. maybe Latias shouldn't be banned, it's hard to say, but dpp is fun and competitive right now. id rather avoid trying to fix something that isn't broken given the circumstances.
i will say that the dpp lati/mence tour was a good time