LC Playstyles: Stall

[Liquidocelot]

Stall in LC
(Approved by blarajan)
I wanted to bring up the point of my favorite play style in LC and a very fun one to do if you can pull it off right stall. Not only this but I wanted to ask your opinions on stall and whether its still viable as a play style and I will do this by discussing the positives and negatives of how this gen affected stall.
Positives
New hazard setters
This gen introduced a few new hazard setters and pokemon that can now set up hazards from old generations examples of this are...

koffing none other then smogons mascot himself. koffing now is a great pokemon to add to stall teams because due to new breeding mechanics he gets toxic spikes from yanmask and he provides a team with a needed fighting resist whle not being particularly weak to knock off. not only this but his willow wisp accuracy was buffed and he can be a crucial asset to many stall teams.

Another new hazard setter who i mentioned before is yanmask who gets toxic spikes now and is the only user of t-spikes that can also spinblock. Yanmask also provides it a immunity to fighting attacks (though its weak to knock) and also appreciates the new buff to willow wisp.
Willow Wisps buff
This is a huge benefit to stall teams as it allows them to burn physical attackers that would give them trouble before such as mienfoo,scraggy,meditite,gligar,carvahnna etc and it allows many pokemon to come in and sponge hits easier while recovering off damage and provides some easy passive damage that will wittle away pokemon easily Notable pokemn that this helps are...

I decided to group these all together because the generally do the same thing with it cripple physical attackers and provide a way to whittle down walls and all these pokemon love the new buffed accuracy of this attack that was standard on all there defensive sets.
Bulky fairy types
A huge buff to stall this genis bulky fairy types such that can wall the dark fighting combo and hit back both types hard with a stab attack furthermore these pokemon will help out with the huge knock off buff as they resist it and can often retaliate back hard with a stab attack or cripple them with status. Notable examples of such pokemon are...

Spritzee is a very good example of a bulky fairy type introduced this as it has great 73/60/65 defenses backes by reliable recovery in wish along with also being able to be a great cleric for your team. add this to also being ablet to wall every fighting type in the tier (croagunk aside) even after a knock off and retaliate back with a strong stab moonblast.

Another new and great bulky fairy type is snubull who has 60/50/40 defenses backes by evilolite. Snubull also can help wall the many fighting types in the tier with intimidate and eviolite and can retaliate with a strong stab play rough. Snubull also provides good team support with access to support moves such as heal bell and wish.
Negatives
The steel type nerf.
now this is a big one as stall before often relied on steel such as ferroseed types to wall dark and ghost types that were offensive threats last gen such as pawniward and misdreavus and with attacks like the newly buffed knock off no longer being resisted by steel types really hurts stall and there ability to try to wall most of the metagame.
The knock off buff
I have mentioned this move many times already and why its important to not be vulnerable to it and that's because this move is the bane of stall a 65 (97.5 after knocking off an item) that takes away a pokemon item such as eviolite that stall so heavily relies on to work with to wall threats. this move is also so powerful and helps many pokemon break through the common walls of stall such as mienfoo vs misdreavus or scraggy vs koffing and provides no safe switch in besides a really bulky physical wall or a really bulky dark type and with steels nerf this move is so hard to deal with.
Defog
this attack hurts stall so much in LC as it provides an unblock able way to remove hazards which is one thing that stall heavily relies on and is one of stalls main ways of damaging the opponent
New threats introduced

this is the thing that really hurts stall with things such as tyrunt,swirlix and bunnelby introduced that are really hard to wall while still trying to wall significant threats from past generations and these pokemon can often set up and break your entire team.
How all this has affected stall
All these things completely changed how stall is played as now your forced to counter so many threats and aways have certain things on your team. The now stall staples are a bulky fighting type a bulky fairy type a regenerator core hazard control and a special wall. Also stall is played completely differently now having to be played rather aggressively instead of the old hazard stacking and phasing days and it now has sort of turned into a bulky offensive sort of thing instead of stall and I'd say that the only viable type of stall in lc right now is momentum stall. Momentum stall is essentially the fact of trying to keep offensive pressure on the opponent while whiting them down with passive damage. This stall takes incredible prediction and often involves a regenerator+defensive volt turn core and makes it so your opponent constantly has to switch while you weaken them constantly and then finish them off with one pokemon late game. Staples on these types of teams are mienfoo vullaby slowpoke foongus gligar chinchou Larvesta etc and due to the incredible offensive bases of the meta right now its very hard to play stall and this is the only way really as old stall is dead. The only other way stall is viable is trying to longingly stall with toxic+recovery or berry juice recycle which is normally destroyed by knock off.

Overall allot of changes have happened to stall and while i still think it is a viable and fun playstyle to use i would love to hear your guys opinions on it and whether it can still be a viable strategy. This is smogons favorite cat signing out​

 

[Darkamber8828]

Recycle / Berry Juice Trubbish is the messiah of Little Cup stall.

Also Shellos, if you're lame.

But of course you would be, you play stall :P

 

[chimp]

Koffing getting Toxic Spikes was pretty cool this gen. Might (probably not though) give me a reason to use him. Hippopotas and Lileep could make a decent stall core, just watch out for ice types.

Here is a random tip:try making the headings a little bigger and stand out more.

 

[Wobbyble]

Uhhh IMO Koffing, Frillish, and Yamask are all pretty much garbage. Koffing the least of them, but still mostly useless.

Recycle / Berry Juice Trubbish is the messiah of Little Cup stall.
Also Shellos, if you're lame.

Shellos is really good, 27/14/14 bulk is better than Foongus', and it gets Recover, a good stab on Scald, and the obvious Sticky Hold. Earth Power lets it hit Pawniard pretty hard. Pretty good Poke.

 

[Liquidocelot]

Uhhh IMO Koffing, Frillish, and Yamask are all pretty much garbage. Koffing the least of them, but still mostly useless.

Shellos is really good, 27/14/14 bulk is better than Foongus', and it gets Recover, a good stab on Scald, and the obvious Sticky Hold. Earth Power lets it hit Pawniard pretty hard. Pretty good Poke.

Actually i have used all three of those pokemon extensively with yanmask probably being the worst and they get there job done quite well which is stalling out the opponent with there good bulk. Now to address the shellos thing yes its fantastic on stall but i was just addressing the new things stall got in the OP i will be saying stuff in the comments later about old stall things that got buffed.

 

[Expulso]

Larvesta please, sexy fighing resist, flame body, slow u-turn, morning sun, ridiculous attack stat.

Also, why are you not mentioning Regenerator?

 

[Kavatika]

There's a thread in UT detailing how stall has changed in XY. It basically goes over how the traditional hazard-stacking stall is not nearly as effective, and the new stall is basically killing your opponent through status effects, and straight out killing stuff when necessary. The OP should probably be updated to reflect this style.

Stall teams nowadays should also be played very aggressively, and you shouldn't just be sitting around spamming recycle with a berry juice. If you do this, you are just begging for something to set up on you.

 

[Anthiese]

Lately i've been running a few semi stall teams that capitalizes on using a Regenorator Core (Slowpoke/Foongus/Mienfoo) and a tanky duo (Def Missy/Subroost Krow) or (Spritzee/Tank Porygon) and Gligarand i've had mild success.

Stall is possible but it's got dang hard to run.

 

[GemOftheDay]

Bronzor honestly deserves a mention here. The ability to have the monster defenses go berry juice + recycle while also providing a good counter to fairies with flash cannon is pretty useful.

However, Many stall teams have one main problem to deal with: pawniard. Knock-off is now HUGE in little cup, as well as it's amazing offenses/defenses.

 

[Kavatika]

Bronzor honestly deserves a mention here. The ability to have the monster defenses go berry juice + recycle while also providing a good counter to fairies with flash cannon is pretty useful.

However, Many stall teams have one main problem to deal with: pawniard. Knock-off is now HUGE in little cup, as well as it's amazing offenses/defenses.

That is where a bulky mienfoo set or other bulky fighting type would be necessary on a stall team, or even gligar, to handle pawniard. croagunk and gligar can handle pawniard and other fighting types as well.

 

[Wobbyble]

Bronzor is trash now, considering it's weak to Knock Off, Ghost moves, has no offensive presence, and Stealth Rocks is far more easy to get rid of than last gen. Its CM RestTalk set isn't even viable anymore. There's just no reason at all to use Bronzor over Gligar right now.

 

[Expulso]

why is yamask even in this

it's pretty awful, and Mummy can backfire. someone can get mummy and just stand there until someone attacks it qnd loses regenerator/huge power/etc.

 

[Liquidocelot]

why is yamask even in this

it's pretty awful, and Mummy can backfire. someone can get mummy and just stand there until someone attacks it qnd loses regenerator/huge power/etc.

Yanmask is there because it now gets toxic spikes this gen and is the only user of it that can spinblock (less useful because of defog but still useful)

 

[ryan]

There's no reason at all to use Yamask over Misdreavus. Literally the only thing it gets over Misdreavus is Toxic Spikes, which isn't that much of a niche to begin with. Toxic Spikes aren't that great, but if you're going to use them, you're better off just using something like Tentacool or Skrelp that has utility outside of setting Toxic Spikes.

Bronzor is trash now, considering it's weak to Knock Off, Ghost moves, has no offensive presence, and Stealth Rocks is far more easy to get rid of than last gen. Its CM RestTalk set isn't even viable anymore. There's just no reason at all to use Bronzor over Gligar right now.

Bronzor is nothing like Gligar, and there are plenty of reasons to use it over Gligar. Calm Mind sets are easy to play around because 1. Pawniard comes in for free on it, and 2. it's weak to Knock Off and loads of other common moves right now. But bulky Bronzor is still one of the best answers for most Gligar, and straight up hard walling Gligar is a very unique niche. Recycle Berry Juice lets it keep going throughout the match and keeps it from being really easy to wear down like it was last gen. Definitely not one of the best Pokemon in the tier, but it's not trash at all.

 

[Dustflier]

That is where a bulky mienfoo set or other bulky fighting type would be necessary on a stall team, or even gligar, to handle pawniard. croagunk and gligar can handle pawniard and other fighting types as well.

I'm a little late to the party, but I definitely agree with this. I run bulky Mienfoo on my semi stall team so I can deal with Pawniard, which otherwise absolutely manhandles the rest of my team ;~;

 

[Wobbyble]

Bronzor is nothing like Gligar, and there are plenty of reasons to use it over Gligar. Calm Mind sets are easy to play around because 1. Pawniard comes in for free on it, and 2. it's weak to Knock Off and loads of other common moves right now. But bulky Bronzor is still one of the best answers for most Gligar, and straight up hard walling Gligar is a very unique niche. Recycle Berry Juice lets it keep going throughout the match and keeps it from being really easy to wear down like it was last gen. Definitely not one of the best Pokemon in the tier, but it's not trash at all.

The ONLY thing Bronzor does that is useful in this meta, and I really mean the ONLY thing, is beat and check Swords Dance Gligar with HP Ice. Even then, I've seen enough SD Knock Off (and Knock Off without SD) Gligars merit never using Bronzor. You can't even use it as a reliable check to Murkrow because having Levitate to switch in on EQs means you can't run Heatproof. It's pretty much useless and trash tier now.

Don't get me wrong, I love(d) Bronzor. It's CM RestTalk set was top tier because of how hard it shat on Murkrow and Steel was much better defensively. But the nerfs to Steel type, the buff to Knock Off, and the changes to Defog weakened it by a ridiculous amount.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

I'm honestly very disappointed that Munchlax is not mentioned this thread at all. It has the base stat distribution of a stall god and the moves to complement it as well.

Munchlax @ Berry Juice
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SDef / 116 Def / 76 Atk / 76 HP
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Recycle
- Body Slam / Return
- Earthquake / Ice Punch

Curse turns Munchlax into a monster that's incredibly difficult to stop. The combination of Recycle and Berry Juice basically provides immortality in conjunction with Munchlax's awesome stat distribution, as it racks up boosts. Body Slam is the optimal choice for a STAB attack over Return for its generous chance of causing paralysis, but Return can be used for added power or if Munchlax is on a team where other elements of stall are used to break down the opponent, such as Toxic poison. You obviously don't want to attempt to set this up until the opponent's Ghost-types are dealt with, and you also want to keep Will-O-Wisp and Knock Off from ruining it. Apart from that, this set is damn near impossible to stop once it gets going.

 

[Liquidocelot]

I'd say that the only viable type of stall in lc right now is momentum stall. Momentum stall is essentially the fact of trying to keep offensive pressure on the opponent while whiting them down with passive damage. This stall takes incredible prediction and often involves a regenerator+defensive volt turn core and makes it so your opponent constantly has to switch while you weaken them constantly and then finish them off with one pokemon late game. Staples on these types of teams are mienfoo vullaby slowpoke foongus gligar chinchou etc and due ti the incredible offensive bases of the meta right now its very hard to play stall and this is the only way really as old stall is dead.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

I'd say that the only viable type of stall in lc right now is momentum stall. Momentum stall is essentially the fact of trying to keep offensive pressure on the opponent while whiting them down with passive damage. This stall takes incredible prediction and often involves a regenerator+defensive volt turn core and makes it so your opponent constantly has to switch while you weaken them constantly and then finish them off with one pokemon late game. Staples on these types of teams are mienfoo vullaby slowpoke foongus gligar chinchou etc and due ti the incredible offensive bases of the meta right now its very hard to play stall and this is the only way really as old stall is dead.

You should probably add this to the OP if this is really how you feel. In addition to the VoltTurn mons you mentioned here, I'd also add Larvesta since it gets U-turn as well as Will-O-Wisp.

It's not the most effective playstyle, but I wouldn't say "stall is dead", and I also wouldn't say "momentum stall" is the only form of viable stall in the current metagame. Eviolite, Berry Juice + Recycle, and mons with Toxic + Recover like Frillish can be used to decent effect for a somewhat stall-based approach. But like with any strategy, there are things that can beat it and thus have to be removed first before it can be effectively executed. You'll want something to deal with the common Knock Off users and you'll want a cleric to keep status off your team. It's also ideal to carry something that can deal with fast hard-hitters like Murkrow and, as they can rip holes in stall.

Another form of stall that a lot of people forget about is Baton Pass, which remains stall until that final recipient rips the opposing team to shreds. Torchic is the obvious lead, and with Bold nature it can survive an Earthquake from offensive Gligar. After getting boosts from Speed Boost and Swords Dance/Focus Energy, you have bulky Mienfoo that can use Bulk Up and set up Substitutes in the faces of physically inclined enemies, and also Mime Jr., that can use Calm Mind and do the same against specially based foes, while also having access to Taunt/Magic Coat to block the opponent's attempts to throw a wrench in the operation (Mime Jr. with Bold nature and Filter is actually very hard to kill). Shelmet can take advantage of its unique resistances to pass Acid Armor and also set up Spikes. Offensive juggernauts that appreciate being passed these boosts, and also have Baton Pass themselves to pass the boosts again if necessary, include Meditite and Gligar. Anchors of Baton Pass (end of the chain) that are pretty cool include Inkay, which gets 100% critical hits on its STAB Psycho Cut and Night Slash after being passed Focus Energy, and Lileep, a self-sustaining wall that can deal awesome damage after receiving boosts, can further boost with Stockpile (and potentially Ancient Power!) and can also keep its health intact by way of Giga Drain/Recover; both of these anchors also have the Suction Cups ability and so can never be forced into a switch that would make them lose their stat buffs. Finally, Munna can dump the merits of every boost in the chain into its obscenely powerful STAB Stored Power attack. Sure, it can be beaten or played around with just the right moves if done carefully, but so can all other strategies. It's not the most mindless immediately useful type of team there is, but it can definitely work.

 

[Ashley11]

I've used momentum stall to good success! It is another form of stall like Baton Pass stall, but the goal of momentum stall is to outmaneuver your opponent. Since the main way to beat stall is to apply pressure to the stall team till it breaks open, if you can counter the pressure with your own, you can easily beat offensive teams that try to take on your team like that!

In order to do this, you must be able to have bulky pokemon that use u-turn, volt switch, or baton pass. Gligar, Chinchou, and Vullaby are all good examples of this. You must have great prediction to use this strategy though, as you could easily end up u-turning at the wrong time or not u-turning at the wrong time. To take advantage of the extra momentum, be sure to have a stealth rock setter! This can really wither down pokemon quickly, and even if they have moves like roost or recover, if you play it right they wont even have a free turn to recover the damage they have taken! I also prefer to have a rapid spinner of my own too, as switching so much can wither you down just as easily! tentacool is a nice option, as it helps stop annoying pokemon to this playstyle such as spritzee, swirlix, and foongus. It can also set up toxic spikes to wither down walls like spritzee if needed be.

There are some really annoying factors that can counter this playstyle pretty well though if you're not prepared for them. Examples of these are Foongus, Spritzee, passive damage, entry hazards, and rapid spin users. this can easily be fixed with the right support though! I personally use a larvesta to help beat foongus, as it can one hit ko it while also burning physical attackers. Toxic Spikes really helps against spritzee, but be wary of the wishes, as it can easily pass them on to other weakened teamates. Like i said earlier, tentacool is a great rapid spinner for these teams as they absorb toxic spikes, counter swirlix and spritzee, and also counters foongus with liquid ooze. Regenerator cores can be quite the pain to this playstyle, but you just have to muscle your way through them with the right predictions and attacks.

Overall, I find momentum and baton pass stall the two most effective stall types atm. The metagame is wayyy to offensive right now for full out stall, so many things can just break through. I reccomend to have at least over half your team with a switching move, or this playstyle won't work too well. I managed to get 5/6 of my team like that, and it has managed to beat some good players! A tip for you, if you are looking for a pokemon like spritzee for your team because its so bulky, try out togepi! its a bit less bulky, but has baton pass for momentum. either way though, they both work.

 

[Liquidocelot]

I've used momentum stall to good success! It is another form of stall like Baton Pass stall, but the goal of momentum stall is to outmaneuver your opponent. Since the main way to beat stall is to apply pressure to the stall team till it breaks open, if you can counter the pressure with your own, you can easily beat offensive teams that try to take on your team like that!

In order to do this, you must be able to have bulky pokemon that use u-turn, volt switch, or baton pass. Gligar, Chinchou, and Vullaby are all good examples of this. You must have great prediction to use this strategy though, as you could easily end up u-turning at the wrong time or not u-turning at the wrong time. To take advantage of the extra momentum, be sure to have a stealth rock setter! This can really wither down pokemon quickly, and even if they have moves like roost or recover, if you play it right they wont even have a free turn to recover the damage they have taken! I also prefer to have a rapid spinner of my own too, as switching so much can wither you down just as easily! tentacool is a nice option, as it helps stop annoying pokemon to this playstyle such as spritzee, swirlix, and foongus. It can also set up toxic spikes to wither down walls like spritzee if needed be.

There are some really annoying factors that can counter this playstyle pretty well though if you're not prepared for them. Examples of these are Foongus, Spritzee, passive damage, entry hazards, and rapid spin users. this can easily be fixed with the right support though! I personally use a larvesta to help beat foongus, as it can one hit ko it while also burning physical attackers. Toxic Spikes really helps against spritzee, but be wary of the wishes, as it can easily pass them on to other weakened teamates. Like i said earlier, tentacool is a great rapid spinner for these teams as they absorb toxic spikes, counter swirlix and spritzee, and also counters foongus with liquid ooze. Regenerator cores can be quite the pain to this playstyle, but you just have to muscle your way through them with the right predictions and attacks.

Overall, I find momentum and baton pass stall the two most effective stall types atm. The metagame is wayyy to offensive right now for full out stall, so many things can just break through. I reccomend to have at least over half your team with a switching move, or this playstyle won't work too well. I managed to get 5/6 of my team like that, and it has managed to beat some good players! A tip for you, if you are looking for a pokemon like spritzee for your team because its so bulky, try out togepi! its a bit less bulky, but has baton pass for momentum. either way though, they both work.

There probably never will be full stall again as due to the defog buff and lack of good spinblockers besides misdreavus you can not stop entry hazard from being taken away and due to the meta being offensive and the knock off buff teams cant truly be defensive anymore.

 

[Rowan]

I do believe stall is still good (just look at CatcherAndTheRai in SPL). But a few things can completely wreck it. Basically strong Life Orb users like Mixed Murkrow or Meditite can really break down stall. Stall needs dedicated hard-counters to both of these Pokemon to function properly.
Also the Knock Off buff hurt stall the most, so Shellos and Grimer are both excellent additions to these sorts of teams.
Finally, set-up sweepers are absolute bastards, particularly Shell Smash, Belly Drum and Swords Dance Gligar. Status is necessary on Stall to cripple these Pokemon, but a pokemon that is very useful as a 'glue' pokemon to many stall teams is Wooper. Wooper doesn't have to be constantly switching in all game, but when you see a Shell Smasher or Belly Drum Pokemon that is about to wreck you, it's is an incredible answer. I have ran stall before and without Wooper, it basically couldn't function as set-up sweepers could've set up all over me. Don't let it get Knocked Off though, because without Eviolite it really isn't bulky.