Announcement LC Suspect - Black Balloons

[Corporal Levi]

Welcome to the first Little Cup suspect of SS LC! The first Pokemon on the chopping block is Drifloon, who carries a fantastic movepool for both sweeping and utility along with an excellent ability in Unburden. When its held Berry Juice is activated, Drifloon's Speed skyrockets to as much as 34, outspeeding the entire metagame. It can then aim to sweep with either a physical or special set, or act as a significant nuisance with its utility moves. A combination of its versatility and sweeping potential leads the council to believe that Drifloon may be too effective, and so is deserving of a suspect.

sample sets

Drifloon @ Berry Juice
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 4 Def / 116 SpA / 84 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Hex
- Thunderbolt
- Substitute

Drifloon @ Berry Juice
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 4 Def / 116 SpA / 84 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Thunderbolt
- Substitute

Drifloon @ Berry Juice
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Acrobatics
- Thief
- Will-O-Wisp

Drifloon @ Berry Juice
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 116 Atk / 4 Def / 116 SpA / 4 SpD / 196 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Substitute
- Acrobatics
- Hex
- Thunderbolt

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 82 with at least 40 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 gxe you have above 82 gxe, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 40 games to reach 82 GXE is fine.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

For this suspect test, we will be using the regular LC ladder, so you must create a new account that begins with LCDS to qualify. The suspect will end on January 1, 11:59 PM EST.

When posting in this thread, please keep in mind these rules:
1. No one liners or uninformed posts
2. No discussion on other potential suspects or the suspect process
3. Be respectful

Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if you fail to follow them.

 

[Gummy]

i don't think floon is broken. very powerful and on par with the likes of vullaby but it's not broken, mainly because it doesn't get recycle. recycle + burn was basically a HUGE reason to ban floon back in oras, and it doesn't have recycle now and burn does way less damage. but that's then and this is now, i suppose, and while floon offers a ton of utility i think there are plenty of checks for it. hex+tspikes is one of its most threatening sets but i feel like there's tons of counterplay to tspikes, including using a poison type at any point in the match. i'm not gonna say it's easy but i personally feel that a well crafted team should be able to play around floon just fine.

edit: damn nevermind i just lost a 6-3 lead because of this thing lets ban it

 

[Corporal Levi]

For reference, here are some of the relevant posts on Drifloon in the metagame discussion thread:

Dreamcatcher - pro-ban
tcr - pro-ban
mad0ka - anti-ban (this one was moreso arguing that Drifloon shouldn't be quickbanned)
serene grace - pro-ban (arguing that Drifloon was quickban-worthy)
myself - anti-ban

 

[Arts and stuff]

I like drifloon and I think it's a fine Pokemon their are ways to counter it with knock off or theif. Simple so banning it seems a bit much for a balloon and hex can be countered with aromatherapy or heal bell.

 

[Corporal Levi]

The voter turnout has been very low, so we're lowering the reqs by 1 point across the board (as was originally discussed as a possibility in the OP). You now need 82 GXE with 40+ games to qualify, up to 84 GXE to qualify with 30 games. In addition, we're extending the deadline to the end of Jan 1, 2020 EST.

 

[jake]

(One thing that I want to note that is going to make me sound like Heysup is that we shouldn't be looking at Drifloon through the lens of Recycle. SS Drifloon doesn't have Recycle, and we should be judging it solely on its context in this metagame, not relative to what it was like in ORAS and SM.)

I think tcr's post, mad0ka's post, and Levi's post that Levi linked above are all excellent and thought-provoking, so if you get the opportunity to vote, I strongly urge you to read all three before you vote. Of everything that they mentioned, I think that the critical discussion points boil down to these: 1) how Drifloon uses its versatility to weaken checks for itself and teammates; and 2) how Drifloon only has one opportunity in most games to sweep.

I believe that Drifloon is broken. It is not going to sweep every single game, but its versatility allows it to cripple and overcome a comparatively small pool of checks and enable its teammates in a way that cannot be realistically handled in the teambuilder. On top of that, it still has the ability to sweep, given the chance. Will-O-Wisp is an incredible tool that punishes the most common Drifloon answers in Dark-types, Onix, and Munchlax. Not only does Will-O-Wisp create opportunities for Drifloon to spam Hex, it creates set-up opportunities for teammates. A burned Onix is easy set-up bait for a fellow Shellder.

Nobody is talking about them, but Destiny Bond and Memento are both incredible moves on Drifloon. Although Substitute is a good move, it is droppable, and both DB and Memento are plausible team support options that I have used to success. I seem to be in the minority in thinking that CM Hex Tbolt is weaker than the mixed sets, but I've seen it be successful, especially coupled with trapper support. Thief sets are subpar, I think, but it can be just as disruptive as Knock Off is for other Pokemon. (Weather Ball and Defog sets are memes.)

Drifloon could be using any of these moves or sets whenever you see it, which means you must either build a team that never gives it an opportunity (this is challenging, considering its great typing, fair bulk, and good speed) or try to respond to whatever it does by absorbing burns and trading down Pokemon.

To draw on Levi's summary in his anti-ban post:

2. Drifloon does not have an unusually low amount of checks compared to other top tier offensive threats; it is simply able to cripple its checks to a greater degree.

I believe that this "greater degree", in tandem with its teammates, is substantial enough to consider Drifloon to be overpowering.

The other argument against Drifloon is that it only gets one opportunity thanks to the fact that the Unburden boost goes away if Drifloon switches out or obtains a new item. I don't think that the limited opportunity is that big of a knock on Drifloon's effectiveness. It's a very fair point -- it absolutely does limit Drifloon's potential and makes it easier to handle if it's forced out after Unburden pops, but I don't think that Drifloon needs to have multiple shots with Unburden in order to break apart teams. Once is sufficient in most scenarios. Even after being forced out, Drifloon can still put up Substitutes against slower Pokemon and put pressure on the opposing team through the aforementioned movepool options.


I understand that Drifloon is a pretty polarizing suspect, but all of its traits combined make it extremely challenging to account for with very little drawbacks for using it. I think that it is an unhealthy Pokemon in this meta, and I will be voting ban when I stop losing games on my ladder accounts right before I get reqs.

 

[Altariel von Sweep]

I'm not sure how to feel about Drifloon. It has many good things going for it on paper, but in practice, some of them seem lackluster. I want to focus on the sets it can carry to sustain myself while explaining my point of view:

1.-Calm Mind
We all know how decent Calm Mind sets are, enabling Drifloon to wipe and clean teams thanks to the Thunderbolt + Hex coverage it has, specially with trapper support from the likes of Trapinch and Diglett. The main reason for its success is how easily Drifloon can be put in hyper offensive archetypes with Toxic Spikes Mareanie, as it gives Drifloon a mean to status the opposing team in order to further improve its capabilities at sweeping the opposing team. Usually, Substitute can be used on the sets, but I only see it as a waste of a moveslot, when Will-O-Wisp helps Drifloon offer more utility than Substitute does. Even both Memento and Destiny Bond are amazing options, as jake mentioned before, offering useful tools to Drifloon in order to beat several Pokemon after it can't keep up its role. However, Berry Juice being triggered only once means that the Drifloon user has to consistently play their cards in order to enable Drifloon to be a threat, meaning that if the opponent has an answer to it such as Munchlax, you are forced to switch out and hence lose both Unburden and Calm Mind boosts. Knock Off is also detrimental, making Drifloon lose its recovery and force it out by the threaten of it, although some offensive sets carry the very niche Weakness Policy (s/os 067 the Hero) to instantly boost up Drifloon and allow it to break teams effortlessly.

2.-Thief
Thief sets are the best alternative to those Pokemon that Calm Mind cannot beat such as Munchlax, providing utility to its team by removing Munchlax's Berry Juice and inducing status with Will-O-Wisp, making the set be a dissruptive Pokemon for the opponent. Knock Off does not sound as an issue here since Thief can steal a potential Berry Juice or Eviolite, but this set keeps having a heavy reliance on Berry Juice to keep working. However, both Destiny Bond and Memento are moves which further enhance this set to be even a bigger threat, thanks to the offered defensive utility with both Thief and Will-O-Wisp. You can choose whether to exploit the status induced with Hex or deal consistent damage with Acrobatics.

With all of this in mind, it is quite hard to find a fitting answer for all the versatility Drifloon offers, having to use conventional options to handle all of them or break through Will-O-Wisp sets with brute force. But if I had to offer my insight on what the best answers could be, it would be these three:

Pawniard's role of soft Flying check comes in pretty handy when you can handle both sets thanks to its decent bulk and ability to setup. It struggles a bit with Calm Mind sets if slightly damaged, but can put the Drifloon user in danger of getting hit or being used as setup fodder.

Onix is probably the best offensive answer there is to Drifloon, specially Sturdy and Weak Armor sets that carry Dragon Dance, as Rock Blast allows to break Substitute and outspeed Drifloon, which is even more noticeable on Weak Armor sets which are bulkier and withstand Drifloon better, while Sturdy sets offer a second life to set up and beat Drifloon.

Encore Spritzee is a very good defensive answer to Drifloon and had seen usage in one game of Ekans, completely halting both sets thanks to its bulk. However, that would mean giving up other useful options in Calm Mind and Aromatherapy, as once it stops Drifloon, Drifloon is forced to switch into an answer to Spritzee.

In summary, while Drifloon is hard to face, there is enough reliable counterplay to be explored that can make Drifloon not look as threatening as it should be. For now, I am undecided, maybe leaning towards the minoritary no ban group after experimenting with Drifloon, so I would like more people to offer their view on the topic.

 

[Shrug]

hook it. beat both sets you cant, particularly in a meta structurally favorable to toxic spikes. it's no longer the absurd mon it was, obviously, but within the parameters of regular sweeper it still creates winning circumstances + exploits them beyond what's tolerable in a meta.

 

[Berks]

well, after days of losing my mind on the ladder I think I’m done trying for reqs

however:


I think that floon ought to go because it is too unpredictable. For example, we all know you have to play differently against NP Vull, Offensive Pivot Vull, and the rare Scarf Vull in order to win. I feel that Vullaby is safe enough to scout to enable a reasonably well-built team to 1) carry sufficient counter play to multiple sets and 2) figure out which one it is early enough in the match to determine and execute proper counterplay. As much of a meme as it may sound, this is less the case with CM Floon, Thief Floon, and the rare WP Floon. Acknowledging that no Pokémon plays in a vacuum, I think Floon puts too much pressure on the opposing player by too easily picking its counterplay. That is certainly an opinion that not everyone shares, but it has been my experience.

if I were to vote (which I won’t bc I literally cannot with the ladder anymore) I’d vote to ban Floon, but not by much!

as an aside, this meta feels rather balanced to me and I am loving it!

 

[ghost]

Much like Berks, I'm pretty fried on laddering (82 GXE is a lot on an early ladder when you're bad), but I will post here in lieu of voting.

I think Drifloon is broken, but not overwhelmingly so, so I will not be surprised by the vote going either way. The versatility of Drifloon is much discussed, but I really think it's less threatening in this regard than Vullaby; unlike Vullaby, Drifloon's sweeping set is clearly its most powerful, and the physical set, should you misplay it, might bone one of your checks (thieving Munchlax's juice, for example), but is extremely unlikely to sweep. Physical Drifloon has made some key appearances (zf beat Luthier's Lax with Thief in ekans comes to mind) but has been pretty in rare in my experience on the ladder.

The question to me is really whether special Drifloon is broken. The best set bar none is Calm Mind Hex, which sports the best sweeping power and the least team utility. Many have argued that Drifloon needs a lot of support to sweep, which is true in part, but that support - Toxic Spikes from Mareanie and something to deal with Pawniard and Munchlax - is not at all difficult to come by. Mareanie is a widespread presence right now and has an easy time getting up Toxic Spikes, since even removal cannot undo mons already having been poisoned. Trapinch, which is busy making sun an uncompetitive archetype even without Cherubi, efficiently traps and eliminates Munchlax, Pawniard, and Onix. Pawniard is not an especially durable presence anyway, and Onix risks a speed tie while taking massive damage from status-boosted Hex. Drifloon boosts very easily against a number of defensive Pokemon, especially Mareanie and Oddish, and Spritzee needs to be status-free in order to beat Drifloon in a boosting war. This, to me, adds together to make a Pokemon that is just slightly too powerful for the metagame.

I do, however, think the meta is in a pretty good place with or without Drifloon.

 

[fatty]

regrettably wasn't able to get reqs this time, thought i'd be able to grind it out but time issues with work and holidays sapped that shit right up. despite this, I wanted to post my quick thoughts on drifloon before this goes to a vote. I initially went into this suspect advocating for it due to the belief that loon wasn't on the level of quickban that previous mons were. I even believed that drifloon may not even be broken. there are plenty of great traits that make loon a nuisance, but also a fair amount that deterred it from being gamebreaking such as its reliance on support such as ts or trappers, or the fact that it only has the chance to be fully effective once a match. while I think it was a good idea to suspect, I've been swayed to believe now that loons abilities far outweigh any potential drawbacks. with the proper support, cm hex floon dominates many endgames scenarios, and teams that are well-built enough to handle that are often unequipped to handle the countless other options floon has at its disposal. its checks are fairly limited already, with pawn, munchlax, and cm spritzee probably being the only consistent answers, and even then floon has the techs and flexibility to break past these anyways. these techs combined with loons innate ability of not being revengeable make handling it a massive pain in the ass. while it only has the ability to exert this type of pressure once a match, I believe the amount of guessing that needs to be done about it sets combined with each sets power and variability of checks allow floon to gamebreak enough to warrant a ban.

 

[Kingler]

drifloon is broken to me. the fact that it has counters that are mostly invalidated or at least heavily crippled by wisp, multiple sets that have differnet answers, an ability that lets it outspeed the entire tier and clean up weakened teams easily, and the fact that Pursuit isn't a thing in this gen all combine to make Drifloon a ridiculous threat. It forces a lot of switches, and Drifloon itself switching in and switching out cannot really be punished due to the lack of Pursuit and Arena Trap not affecting it. The rise of TSpikes and the difficulty in removing them (Foongus being gone and Mareanie's dominant position in the metagame contribute to this) is also a factor in why Drifloon is so good, being great support for CM Hex sets (both with Wisp and Substitute). I think that although there were issues with reqs in this suspect (as seen by me almost missing out on them), this is one of the most broken threats in our tier currently and I think we should get rid of it.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Drifloon will remain unbanned.