LC Viability Rankings (Archive)

[DTC]

Mantyke, Skrelp, Tentacool all squish it with their STABs while takine neutra hits from Snover. Tirtouga hates hail but outspeeds after a Shell Smash and wrecks it. Shellder Rock Blasts it.

+2 252+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Ice Beam vs. 36 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Snover: 22-26 (95.6 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

The only Water-types Snover can deal with are Chinchou, Frillish, Wooper, and Shellos, and the latter three are quite uncommon. Also Corphish, but Snover hates Knock Off, and if they run Superpower (although there really isn't room for it usually), you're done.

Snover also beats Slowpoke, since most don't use Fire Blast. Basically it beats the 3 best bulky Water-types. But yea, good points on the other Water-type Pokemon. Obviously, no 1 Pokemon beats every single Pokemon of a type (which encompasses a lot of pokemon), as that would be insane. If a Pokemon beats at least half very consistently, that's pretty impressive wouldn't you say?

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Bellsprout being in a higher tier here than Bulbasaur is criminal. Bellsprout should be moved to at least C tier as long as Tangela exists.

 

[Expulso]

Elekid for A

Being able to run a physical, special, or mixed set, as well as potentially defeating CEyes Yanma, Elekid is a very potent threat. It reaches the 20 Speed tier, and can defeat many S-ranked Pokemon 1v1.

- Gligar (Ice Punch)
- Yanma (Thunderbolt / Wild Charge*)
- Pawniard (Cross Chop / Fire Punch)
- Murkrow (Thunderbolt / Wild Charge / Cross Chop**)
- Tangela (Fire Punch / Ice Punch)#

*May kill self from recoil
**After a predicted Roost
#With Choice Band, out of sun

So, it can reliably beat 4/5 of the S-Rank Pokemon. I believe this should make it worthy of A-Rank; however, it's fragility prevents it from being worthy of S-Rank, in my opinion.

 

[leingodf8]

What, timburr still isn't A tier!! Alright lets discuss. Timburr has a lot of advantages, namely drain punch + mach punch, guts to laugh at status and its very solid bulk and high attack stat. Its two main downsides are a mediocre speed stat and the fact that both the major faries can easily come in on it and scare it off (although spritzee doesn't enjoy losing its item). But the fact is, those are about its only downsides. Pretty much everything that isn't a fairy has a tough time, or at least has to be wary of a full health timburr.

Yanma needs life orb to be able to actually OHKO a full health 76 HP / 76 SDef timburr, gligar actually cannot switch into a full health timburr, as even 110 BP acrobatics only has a 6% chance to ohko, while ice punch is guarnteed to. Sunny day tangela has a 50/50 shot of OHKOing with a life orb solar beam, and if it doesn't then it is either left dead or severely crippled to ice punch + mach punch + life orb recoil. Obviously these pokemon are still all quite good against timburr, but these are some of the best fighting counters in the metagame and the fact timburr can keep them on their toes is quite an achievement. On top of that, timburr acts as a very powerful counter/check to a variety of different pokemon, such as, pawniard, bunnelby, carvahna, dwebble, ferroseed, magnemite, munchlax, porygon, snover, tirtouga, likitung, lileep, ponyta, scraggy, tyrunt etc etc etc. In any event, it does enough with what it has that I think it should easily be able to make it into A rank material.


Another change I would like to mention is Lileep to C. While I do love lileep, its time has come and gone. With weather being nerfed, and hippopotas being rather sub par this gen, lileep doesnt have the defensive power it once had. Whats more its average attacking stats and middling offensive movepool make it easy set up fodder for a lot of scary threats, like swirlix, misdreavus and dwebble. Its only real niche left is it being a very good counter to just about every water type, which admitidly it does well, but I still feel like its flaws are enough to push it down to C rank.

 

[Darkamber8828]

Bellsprout being in a higher tier here than Bulbasaur is criminal. Bellsprout should be moved to at least C tier as long as Tangela exists.

Modest Bulbasaur: 21/9/11/17/13/14
Modest Bellsprout: 21/14/11/17/9/13
Rash Bellsprout: 21/15/10/17/8/13

Timid Oddish: 21/9/12/17/13/13

So Oddish has the best overall stats of the three for a regular Chlorophyll special attacker (difference between 26 and 28 is basically just Scarf Gastly and speed ties with Scarf Gligar/Missy, all of which are pretty rare). But Oddish doesn't have Growth, which means that Bulbasaur and Bellsprout are fighting for a spot as Growth sweepers.

Bulbasaur has two things going for it. It has 19 HP Life Orb recoil, and it has an impressive 4 more SpD. However, you really should be running Eviolite / Berry Juice on a Growth sweeper to help get that turn of setup, so the LO recoil isn't a big deal.

Bellsprout has a quite usable 15 attack and access to Sucker Punch, as well as Weather Ball (WB+Chlorophyll Bulbasaur is illegal).

They're fairly evenly matched. Sucker Punch IS awesome to help destroy priority users, but Grass + Poison and Grass + Fire both have some gaping weaknesses in coverage. While Grass / Poison is resisted by both Poison- and Steel-types, while Grass + Fire is only resisted by Fire-types (Tyrunt is the only dragon and it gets hit neutrally by Grass), most people would use Grass / Poison anyway because STAB Sludge Bomb to hit Fairies and Grass-types is what separates Bellsprout/Bulbasaur/Oddish from Tangela.

So basically, if you want Growth + Sucker Punch (or a Swords Dance sweeper, for that matter), run Bellsprout. And if you don't, run Bulbasaur as your Growth sweeper. And if you don't want a Growth sweeper, run Oddish.

So, Bulbasaur should probably be in the same tier as Bellsprout, wherever that is.

Elekid for A

Being able to run a physical, special, or mixed set, as well as potentially defeating CEyes Yanma, Elekid is a very potent threat. It reaches the 20 Speed tier, and can defeat many S-ranked Pokemon 1v1.

- Gligar (Ice Punch)
- Yanma (Thunderbolt / Wild Charge*)
- Pawniard (Cross Chop / Fire Punch)
- Murkrow (Thunderbolt / Wild Charge / Cross Chop**)
- Tangela (Fire Punch / Ice Punch)#

*May kill self from recoil
**After a predicted Roost
#With Choice Band, out of sun

So, it can reliably beat 4/5 of the S-Rank Pokemon. I believe this should make it worthy of A-Rank; however, it's fragility prevents it from being worthy of S-Rank, in my opinion.

It can reliably beat none of them because it is so fragile and has such shitty defensive typing that every single one of these pokemon can OHKO it on the switch. It can revenge Gligar, Tangela, and Compoundeyes Yanma. Pawniard and Murkrow wreck it with Sucker Punch and Speed Boost Yanma just Protects once and OHKOs it with Bug Buzz.

Also.

236 Atk Choice Band Elekid Ice Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 10-12 (41.6 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
196+ SpA Tangela Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 36- SpD Elekid: 16-21 (76.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Besides, Choice Band is a shitty item anyway.

 

[T-Bolt]

Pineco for C rank

Well let's look at the definition of a D rank Pokemon-

"These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that."

Pineco can set up hazards, and spin them away too, making it a good lead on HO teams with SR weak Pokemon like Yanma. It can utilize Sturdy+berry juice to get back to full health, and after the second time it's brought to 1 Hp, you can use explosion to deal massive damage (or set up another layer of hazards). No other Pokemon can perform all of these roles, so really pineco has a pretty notable niche, making it better suited for C rank.

 

[T-Bolt]

Pineco…uhh…sucks. No other way to put it.
Defog Pokemon are really easy to fit onto teams and Dwebble is infinitely better at hazards+sturdy. Pineco has literally no offensive presence, lacks good STAB moves, and cannot break through subs. Unlike Dwebble, it can't run a setup sweeper set. Its explosion isn't that powerful, and how do you plan to use it without custap berry? If you use it while being brought down to Sturdy, you will have like 1 hazard up max. Dwebble is just better. And defog is really easy to fit onto teams with stuff like Gligar, Murkrow, and Vullaby. Sorry, but Pineco sucks.

Pineco is exactly that, except it doesn't do its role well at all. Infact, it should probably be moved to E tier or not tiered at all.

Unlike Dwebble, Pineco is meant to set up hazards and spin hazards set up on your end of the field too. Like I said in my previous post, berry juice brings you back to full Hp, resetting sturdy and allowing you to set up one more layer of hazards, no custap berry needed.

Defog does hurt other hazard setters too, and if you mean you wouldn't need rapid spin pineco if you have a defog user, pineco has the added advantage of managing to get that rapid spin off 90% of the time thanks to sturdy.

Pineco has a decent base 65 attack, so Explosion does pack a lot of power. Many sweepers that try to set up on pineco end up dying to explosion.

For reference, here's the set I'm using-

pineco@berry juice
Lax nature (+Def,-SpDef) and 0 SpDef IVs
236 Atk/196 Def/76 Spe
-Stealth Rock
-Spikes
-Rapid Spin
-Explosion

While it might be strange seeing Defense investment on a suicide lead, those defense EVs guarantee that you survive a Fake out+Ice punch from LO Meditite (or fake out+zen headbutt from the eviolite one) and survive being 2HKOed by some unboosted neutral physical moves. The rest are pretty self explanatory.

 

[Phemeto]

Unlike Dwebble, Pineco is meant to set up hazards and spin hazards set up on your end of the field too. Like I said in my previous post, berry juice brings you back to full Hp, resetting sturdy and allowing you to set up one more layer of hazards, no custap berry needed.

Defog does hurt other hazard setters too, and if you mean you wouldn't need rapid spin pineco if you have a defog user, pineco has the added advantage of managing to get that rapid spin off 90% of the time thanks to sturdy.

Pineco has a decent base 65 attack, so Explosion does pack a lot of power. Many sweepers that try to set up on pineco end up dying to explosion.

For reference, here's the set I'm using-

pineco@berry juice
Lax nature (+Def,-SpDef) and 0 SpDef IVs
236 Atk/196 Def/76 Spe
-Stealth Rock
-Spikes
-Rapid Spin
-Explosion

While it might be strange seeing Defense investment on a suicide lead, those defense EVs guarantee that you survive a Fake out+Ice punch from LO Meditite (or fake out+zen headbutt from the eviolite one) and survive being 2HKOed by some unboosted neutral physical moves. The rest are pretty self explanatory.

Problem with Sturdy/juice on a spinner is that you will not get the benefits of sturdy if you have to switch into a hazard to rapid spin it, its counter-productive. Also The reason why entry hazards are actually rare in LC is because of Vullaby and Gligar running defog. You can spend 2-4 turns setting them up, and either of them can switch in and clear it away, making you waste all of those turns. And LC is really fast paced, so wasting all those turns setting up hazards is bad. And since pineco cant do ANYTHING else but that, its just bad.

 

[dcae]

I'd like to see some discussion about my earlier argument for Torchic to be dropped to B rank. I outlined some key factors that demonstrate that Torchic does not fit thr thr definition of an A rank Poke because it needs team support in orrder to be used effectively. Torchic has brought about a revival of BP chain trams, but this is as much due to Medtite and Gligar being amazing Pokes in their own right as well as their access to BP. As such, Torchic should not occupy a spot with Pokemon that do not need sypport to work effrctively; instead, it should be in B rank

 

[Phemeto]

I'd like to see some discussion about my earlier argument for Torchic to be dropped to B rank. I outlined some key factors that demonstrate that Torchic does not fit thr thr definition of an A rank Poke because it needs team support in orrder to be used effectively. Torchic has brought about a revival of BP chain trams, but this is as much due to Medtite and Gligar being amazing Pokes in their own right as well as their access to BP. As such, Torchic should not occupy a spot with Pokemon that do not need sypport to work effrctively; instead, it should be in B rank

Sadly i agree, i jumped on the torchic bandwagon with Swords Dance + Speed Boost + Baton Pass, and as good as it is, its the ONLY set torchic can run to be used, and as stated, it obviously needs support from the team. Not only to have a receiver, but switching it in can be a problem if you cant make an opening, so really it requires half a team to set up properly. Also its heavily predictable as soon as the team preview is up so your opponent can prepare for it with ease. So yes Id vote for it to be moved to B rank due to the fact that on its own, it cant do anything.

 

[Expulso]

A-Rank Description:

Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.

The tier is full of offensive Pokemon, and, while your Misdreavus probably doesn't care about a Swords Dance boost, it'll benefit from the speed boost just the same. Sure, Torchic lacks a powerful physical STAB (read: Flare Blitz), and is weak to Stealth Rock, but it defined the style of Baton Passing we know today. Torchic should stay in A-Rank, I believe.

 

[Kappaten]

Agreed with Expulso. Almost every one of the S- and A-tier mons can benefit from a speed boost or two, even if they don't need or care about the Swords Dance boost. The fact that Torchic takes hits so well for an offensive baton passer is just icing on the cake.

196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Waterfall vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 18-26 (75 - 108.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

not that you should stay in on carvahna or anything

 

[ryan]

Alright, so before I begin this post, I want to ask that we stay on point here. Right now, the thread is really erratic with all kinds of people pushing for their favorite Pokemon to be bumped up. S- and A-rank Pokemon are always going to be given priority in discussion, so if there are three or four nominations pertaining to those ranks, I don't really care if you want an E-rank Pokemon to be moved up because it's not going to happen right away.

On Snover: it's staying A-rank, and there's really no reason to discuss it. Almost all of the top Pokemon in the tier are weak to Ice, and Snover is one of the only viable Ice-type Pokemon in the tier. It can also give sun an insanely hard time, particularly if it can keep up Stealth Rock to prevent Vulpix from switching in a lot. With Gligar being the most common Defog user on sun teams and Vulpix typically being the only Ice resist that sun teams carry, it's not hard to keep the opponent from using Defog and taking out most of their team with Blizzard. I also don't get how you can call it weak when it has solid Special Attack and a 110 Base Power STAB with no drawbacks outside of sun lowering its accuracy. No, it's not switching in on a bunch of hits, but that's an utterly irrelevant argument because that's not why Snover is used. Carvanha can't take hits either.

Goomy was put into C-rank because of how easily it takes on opposing sun teams. That's pretty much its niche, and while that niche isn't going to be super valuable in every match, it does make Goomy viable right now. After Tangela gets the boot, it'll probably be worthy of D-rank, but right now, I see no issues with having the number one answer for Tangela and sun in general in C-rank.

Timburr is fine in A-rank. I prefer Mienfoo most of the time because of its ability to pivot in and out and check things like Murkrow and stall out sun turns with Fake Out, but Timburr has its niches over Mienfoo, primarily in providing a full stop to Pawniard, Carvanha, and more.

I don't feel strongly about Gastly dropping to C-rank, but I do believe that it belongs in B-rank. I think people underestimate how great Poison STAB is. Unlike Misdreavus, it's not really forced to choose among Hidden Power Fighting, Thunderbolt, and Dazzling Gleam because it can just run its dual STABs and then either Will-O-Wisp or Hidden Power Fighting to wreck Pawniard on the switch. A secondary STAB (that is strong(er than Shadow Ball)) is great. The only major cons to Gastly are its frailty, which is whatever for an offensive Pokemon, especially with its typing, and only 18 Speed, which admittedly does suck but doesn't keep it from wallbreaking. I'll test it out a bit more when I get the chance, but I believe that it's worthy of B-rank even despite Misdreavus.

I've never used Amaura, but I've also never struggled against it. No strong opinions on it, but I feel like it's an outclassed Snover and should probably just stay in C-rank.

edit: threw together a quick team around Gastly, and so far I'm loving it. Another thing that really, really needs to be emphasized about Gastly is that it's an offensive Poison-type more than it is an offensive Ghost-type. If you just want a strong Shadow Ball, Misdreavus is probably going to be better for your team. But Poison is an amazing attacking type right now in LC because so little outside of Pawniard and Gligar resists it, and you still have coverage moves for them too. I'm trying Sludge Bomb / Shadow Ball / Substitute / Hidden Power Fighting @ Life Orb. At first I thought Substitute would be overkill on a Substitute attacker, but it allows you to set up a Sub against things that can't touch you (which is more than you would think with Gastly's amazing typing), things that you can force out, and things that rely on Sucker Punch in order to kill you. From there, very little wants to take either STAB or a coverage move from Gastly. Misdreavus might be generally more reliable as a Ghost, but as a Poison-type, nothing smacks around teams as hard as Gastly does. Here's a fun replay showing how amazing Substitute can be: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-73976176

 

[Idiotesque]

I may have overlooked something but I haven't been able to find Remoraid here... I'm not going to say the little Fish is amazing, but it's movepool is stupidly wide, with decent offense, despite dodgy speed, which it can make up for with a scarf. I'm not an expert but I'd nominate it for C-Rank or thereabouts.

EDIT: It also smacks Grass-Type switches with a well-timed Fire move. Goodbye Snover.

 

[gali]

I may have overlooked something but I haven't been able to find Remoraid here... I'm not going to say the little Fish is amazing, but it's movepool is stupidly wide, with decent offense, despite dodgy speed, which it can make up for with a scarf. I'm not an expert but I'd nominate it for C-Rank or thereabouts.

EDIT: It also smacks Grass-Type switches with a well-timed Fire move. Goodbye Snover.

Remoraid's access to Water Spout, good speed, and insane movepool definitely give it a niche in LC. However, its paper-thin defenses and lack of priority moves really hinder it in a metagame as hyperoffensive as LC. It's only really usable if you Baton Pass a Focus Energy, a Substitute, and a couple of Speed boosts from Torchic, but that's a challenge in of itself because of how predictable Torchic is. Definitely D rank imo.

Some other comments:

Swirlix for S rank - This thing's Belly Drum set just completely obliterates the metagame. It has only a few checks, all of which are handled easily by any of the current S-rank Pokemon.

Helioptile for C rank - Helioptile is a fantastic Scarfer in sun thanks to Solar Power, but is outclassed by Chinchou outside of sun. However, its power in Sun makes it C rank in my opinion.

 

[skies]

Raseri, what are your thoughts on Chikorita for C-Tier?

 

[gali]

What does Chikorita even do that Spritzee and other Grass-types don't do better?

 

[apt-get]

On Snover: it's staying A-rank, and there's really no reason to discuss it. Almost all of the top Pokemon in the tier are weak to Ice, and Snover is one of the only viable Ice-type Pokemon in the tier. It can also give sun an insanely hard time, particularly if it can keep up Stealth Rock to prevent Vulpix from switching in a lot. With Gligar being the most common Defog user on sun teams and Vulpix typically being the only Ice resist that sun teams carry, it's not hard to keep the opponent from using Defog and taking out most of their team with Blizzard. I also don't get how you can call it weak when it has solid Special Attack and a 130 Base Power STAB with no drawbacks outside of sun lowering its accuracy.

It's 110BP, even lower than last gen, by the way, not 130.

 

[Shinji Mimura]

I'm just curious, what happened to Skrelp that caused it to fall? I thought it was one of the main Pokemon being used to counter Swirlix?

 

[tcr]

Amaura is definitely not an outclassed Snover. Its two niches are different, at least until Snow Warning is released. Nature Power is a sweet mvoe to spam, but it also gets Ancientpower STAB, and provides a nice counter to Murkrow, outside ones that run HP Grass or Dark Pulse. Rock typing is great defensively and its not hard to support it in its teammates considering ifyou dont have a check/counter to meditite or timburr or something you are bad.

 

[gali]

I'm just curious, what happened to Skrelp that caused it to fall? I thought it was one of the main Pokemon being used to counter Swirlix?

Skrelp is still a fantastic counter to fairies; it can take care of them like nobody's business. However, right now, everything that Skrelp does is, quite simply, done better by something else. As a Fairy-killer, it's outclassed by Pawniard, as a bulky Water, it's outclassed by Slowpoke. However, once it gets Adaptability, It will have a completely different, unique role as a powerful tank capable of breaking through sturdy walls like Gligar and Spritzee with its Adaptability-boosted attacks. However, it is still very usable right now, as Raichy's team proves. Until it gets Adaptability, I think it should be B rank.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Seeing as Tangela and Yanma are probably going to get the boot soon (Either both or just one), which Pokemon would become more viable, and which would become less viable? I could see Oddish, Bellsprout and Bulbasaur becoming more viable when Tangela leaves. Not sure about Yanma though...............................

 

[Raseri]

removed Tangela and Yanma from the list.
moved Timburr up to A
moved Torchic down to B

treecko you can update this too you cutie :)
ill read more when i get home and prob do more updates and responses then

 

[leingodf8]

The only other one I was thinking of was Foongus up to B. Lets face it, foongus is just worse than tangela, so the reason why it will never see play is because tangela exists. But if thats taken out of the picture, foongus is still a very strong LC pokemon. Its a great check to a lot of the fighting types out there not named meditite, and is possibly one of the best answers to CM spritzee. With regenerator & giga drain for a solid form of recovery, and the single best sleep move in the game, its a very very solid pokemon, that doesn't require a whole lot of team support to function.

Well with tangela gone, foongus has suddenly gained a much bigger niche (or more is much less overshadowed). Its bulky tangela lite, with an extra poison typing and a better sleep move. Probably deserves a move up to B now~

 

[Kingler]

Finally; let's move goomy down to D. Also with tangela gone, foongus is much much much better, and now deserves B. I think these arguments are rather self-explanatory but I don't mind elaborating if someone argues against them.
Also, one of the sun sweepers might deserve A in the meta, as now they can be run without tangy on a team.