Resource LC Viability Rankings

[Corporal Levi]

credit to PKGaming and FlareBlitz for the idea; run by Corkscrew and Corporal Levi

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Welcome to the LC viability ranking project. In this project, we will "tier" every Pokemon based on usefulness. An initial tier list has already been made; if you think something should be moved up or down, post in this thread with your reasoning on why, and the change may be enacted.

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Viability Ranking Council
For more controversial cases, the viability ranking council will vote on the Pokemon's tiering.

Corporal Levi

Rowan

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Tier List

Without further ado, here is the initial tier list with the rough definitions of each tier (note: Pokemon are ordered alphabetically).

S-Rank

Reserved for the very best Pokemon in the LC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

S

Mienfoo

Pawniard

S-

Abra

Timburr


A-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.

A+

Diglett

Fletchling

Magnemite

Ponyta

Porygon

Spritzee

A

Archen

Chinchou

Drilbur

Ferroseed

Gastly

Snubbull

Staryu

Vulpix

A-

Carvanha

Cottonee

Drifloon

Foongus

Gothita

Houndour

Larvesta

Omanyte

Pumpkaboo-Super

Snivy

Shellder

Skrelp

Vullaby

B-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. Their niches are often slightly smaller than those that are in A and S rank, which leads them to face some competition for a teamslot.

B+

Bellsprout

Bunnelby

Corphish

Croagunk

Dwebble

Hippopotas

Munchlax

Pancham

Tirtouga

Zigzagoon

B

Cranidos

Doduo

Onix

Riolu

Scraggy

Stunky

Surskit

Taillow

Torchic

B-

Aipom

Amaura

Chespin

Elekid

Lickitung

Pumpkaboo-Small

Shellos

Slowpoke

Tentacool

C-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to find themselves outclassed by Pokemon in the above tiers, and face a lot of competition for a team slot.

C+

Aron

Axew

Binacle

Buneary

Darumaka

Frillish

Honedge

Inkay

Koffing

Lileep

Magby

Numel

Snover

Trubbish

Tyrunt

Wynaut

C

Bulbasaur

Clamperl

Dratini

Geodude

Kabuto

Larvitar

Mantyke

Meowth

Natu

Purrloin

Sandshrew

Spinarak

Teddiursa

Venipede

C-

Anorith

Cubone

Goldeen

Karrablast

Nosepass

Remoraid

Rufflet

Shelmet

Togepi

Zorua

D-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that are generally bad in the LC metagame, but are decent enough to justify their occasional use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Their niche is often so tiny, that they are not worth using the majority of the time.

Azurill

Bronzor

Cacnea

Ekans

Finneon

Froakie

Grimer

Golett

Growlithe

Helioptile
Litleo

Machop

Mankey

Mime Jr.

Munna

Oddish

Pineco

Piplup

Poliwag

Shroomish

Skiddo

Smoochum

Solosis

Totodile

Trapinch

Treecko

Voltorb

Wailmer

Wingull

Smog Frog Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that are atrocious in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have no place on any serious team.

Everything else

also these mons in particular

Baltoy
Beldum
Chimchar
Cyndaquil
Duskull
Eevee
Feebas
Flabebe
Gible
Krabby
Magikarp
Pumpkaboo (Large & Medium)
Rattata
Squirtle
Yamask

Possible points of discussion:

 

[Wobbyble]

Meditite should be S rank. Psycho Cut, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, and Drain Punch completely crap on the entire tier other than trash pokes like Honedge. Psycho Cut with LO has a chance to 2HKO max/max Spritzee, Thunder Punch 2HKOs Slowpoke, and Ice Punch deals with Gligar. So really, it's almost impossible to switch into a fresh Meditite since it's impossible to know what its filler moves are.
Meditite is also one of the best revengers right now, Fake Out + BP being able to 2HKO the majority of the tier if they're not carrying BJ/Eviolite. Honestly I'm finding it hard to find a reason not to use it on any team, being the safest way to deal with Unburden Swirlix that don't carry Cotton Guard.

Ponyta and Foongus should both still be A tier. While a lot of Pokemon have gained the ability to be immune to sleep in this Gen (Swirlix, all grass types, Vullaby), Foongus remains a solid wall capable of crippling or hitting hard with stab Giga Drains or Sludge Bombs. Ponyta got a HUGE buff this generation with WoW gaining 10% accuracy and becoming an actual reliable status move. With Flame Body and 85% burning on WoW now, it becomes a reliable and consistent way to deal with physical attackers that aren't Gligar.

 

[LittleCupFailure]

Why am I not seeing Darumaka here? It at least merits C-rank because of how powerful its attacks are. Hustle STAB Flare Blitz is enough to tear through tons of Pokemon in the tier (even some resists), and a deadly scarf set is usable with Rapid Spin or Defog support. It's sad that he's not up here in my opinion.

 

[Phemeto]

Why am I not seeing Darumaka here? It at least merits C-rank because of how powerful its attacks are. Hustle STAB Flare Blitz is enough to tear through tons of Pokemon in the tier (even some resists), and a deadly scarf set is usable with Rapid Spin or Defog support. It's sad that he's not up here in my opinion.

Well he hits like a truck thats for sure, but he has a few key flaws in this current meta:

1. Poor Defenses: While not super important since he makes up for it with choice-scarf speed, he lacks berry juice and eviolite, making him easy fodder for priority attacks that are rampant.
2. Typing: Fire type isnt bad in general, but with all the bulky water types around (Chinchou, Slowpoke, Tirtouga, Carvanha[While not bulky, it can protect to get a boost and outspeed darumaka with an aqua jet or waterfall]) it makes it hard to keep him out.
3. Choice scarf is his only viable set, and being locked into a move is not so great for a sweeper in this tier. only a few pokes run scarf and they are usually Chinchou, Magnemite, and Bunnelby (maybe) which are great at soaking hits and gaining momentum.
4. Hustle: Nobody likes -20% accuracy, way too risky.

*edit* - That being said though, with Tangela gone from the sun, Darumaka in the sun with flareblitz hits like a comet. but the recoil also stops him there.

And stealth rock weakness hurts

 

[Darkamber8828]

Eh. STAB Hustle Flare Blitz wrecks things even if they resist it.

The reason i'd say nobody uses Darumakka to sweep is basically Hustle, yeah. If I wanted a fragile Scarf Fire-type, I'd just use Houndour/Charmander. No U-turn, but better accuracy on Fire Blast and no nasty recoil mean you can do a lot more with them.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Speaking of Charmander, is it worth ranking here? Sure, it's frail, and kind of outclassed in some ways. But is it really Frogs worthy or not?

 

[LittleCupFailure]

Well he hits like a truck thats for sure, but he has a few key flaws in this current meta:

1. Poor Defenses: While not super important since he makes up for it with choice-scarf speed, he lacks berry juice and eviolite, making him easy fodder for priority attacks that are rampant.
2. Typing: Fire type isnt bad in general, but with all the bulky water types around (Chinchou, Slowpoke, Tirtouga, Carvanha[While not bulky, it can protect to get a boost and outspeed darumaka with an aqua jet or waterfall]) it makes it hard to keep him out.
3. Choice scarf is his only viable set, and being locked into a move is not so great for a sweeper in this tier. only a few pokes run scarf and they are usually Chinchou, Magnemite, and Bunnelby (maybe) which are great at soaking hits and gaining momentum.
4. Hustle: Nobody likes -20% accuracy, way too risky.

*edit* - That being said though, with Tangela gone from the sun, Darumaka in the sun with flareblitz hits like a comet. but the recoil also stops him there.

And stealth rock weakness hurts

So he doesn't at least merit D or C rank in your eyes? It seems like he should at least be D for not being atrocious at attacking.

 

[Phemeto]

So he doesn't at least merit D or C rank in your eyes? It seems like he should at least be D for not being atrocious at attacking.

in my eyes sure, a C, he has enough of a niche to be viable to me, and id run it on a sun team.
I was just stating why he isnt on the list. most people wont run it because of the 80% accuracy among other things. looking at the C-listers criteria he definitely fits. He needs a ton of support and hits hard enough to merit using.
But my opinion doesnt really carry any weight, and i figured it would be easier to state the obvious reasons why he isnt used.

On a related note: Does Riolu belong on the list at all? what does it have going for it now? since Copycat got nerfed to not include decreased priority moves (Roar), Priolu only has drain punch + Copycat now, and thats horribly weak and can be disrupted easily.

 

[LittleCupFailure]

in my eyes sure, a C, he has enough of a niche to be viable to me, and id run it on a sun team.
I was just stating why he isnt on the list. most people wont run it because of the 80% accuracy among other things. looking at the C-listers criteria he definitely fits. He needs a ton of support and hits hard enough to merit using.
But my opinion doesnt really carry any weight, and i figured it would be easier to state the obvious reasons why he isnt used.

On a related note: Does Riolu belong on the list at all? what does it have going for it now? since Copycat got nerfed to not include decreased priority moves (Roar), Priolu only has drain punch + Copycat now, and thats horribly weak and can be disrupted easily.

Then I guess that Riolu shouldn't be on the list in my opinion. I didn't know about the copycat nerf, which is hard for Riolu to take because all it did was spam priority Roar. Considering that its stats are bad otherwise and spamming Drain Punch is best left to stronger Fighting-types (Mienfoo, Timburr, Meditite, Scraggy) anyway. Either D-rank or completely useless in my book.

 

[Rowan]

RIOLU WITH COPYCAT ROAR WAS BAD LAST GEN AS WELL and the nerf shouldn't be relevant...

however Riolu just isn't as useful as other fighting types this generation. The fact that the other fighters get access to Knock Off which is such a godly move this generation means Riolu isn't as effective at supporting its team. Hitting the opposing team twice isn't that great anyway, since bulky things like slowpoke and spritzee are generally outsped by other fighters and Riolu can't even 2hko them without knock off support (which other fighters can give themselves except meditite who's just a nuke anyway.)
I genuinely can't think of any sweepers that can be revenged by Riolu any more effectively than the other fighting-types.

D tier.


some more thoughts:

Foongus --> A

with Tangela gone, Foongus' grass regenerator niche returns, allowing it to switch in throughout the match without worrying about being worn down. It's unique typing allows it to beat Carvanha and Tirtouga along with all the fighting types that are becoming more popular and it can serve as a decent check to swirlix and spritzee. All top threats that foongus can handle, it's worthy of a spot in A.

Swirlix --> S

the best late game sweeper right now. It has 2 equally viable sets and not many can counter both. Meditite is the only reliable check, all its other counters are easy to get around. I just think there is no set-up sweeper as good as this guy (not even sturdy smashers)

 

[Ashley11]

I'd like to designate Taillow for B or A rank. Taillow is a very fast and powerful pokemon that can clean up teams lategame. With two different sets that can be run effectively, its pretty hard to counter taillow until you know what set it is, by then something will be dented.

You can either run a Choice Specs/Life Orb Scrappy Boomburst Taillow, Or a Guts Facade and Brave Bird Taillow. Both effectively clean up lategame after you have weakened your opposition. I've even used scarf Boomburst taillow to great success, reaching #5 on the ladder with it.

 

[LittleCupFailure]

Sandile for D rank. Its STAB combination and access to Moxie can make it a powerful threat when Baton Passed boosts. Dark/Ground is resisted by only a few Pokemon, like Murkrow, Cottonee, and Vullaby, which can all be ruined by Ice Fang after a few boosts. It's at least D or C rank.

 

[ryan]

Alright, so before I begin this post, I want to ask that we stay on point here. Right now, the thread is really erratic with all kinds of people pushing for their favorite Pokemon to be bumped up. S- and A-rank Pokemon are always going to be given priority in discussion, so if there are three or four nominations pertaining to those ranks, I don't really care if you want an E-rank Pokemon to be moved up because it's not going to happen right away.

Just quoting that for anyone who missed it. Tangela and Yanma were both banned, and since then, I've only seen one nomination related to Pokemon that benefit from their absence. There are definitely more, and I would rather focus on getting the higher ranks divided better before worrying about Darumaka or Charmander or Sandile or (insert largely outclassed Pokemon here).

I'm also not in favor of splitting up the ranks into +/- until our rankings stabilize more.

I'd like to hear more about Meditite and Swirlix as well. I'm more in favor of moving Swirlix up than Meditite, but I'm not strongly swayed on either of them at the moment.

Changes I've made (note that many of these were without prior discussion and were just things I felt were either too generous or too harsh, so if you disagree, feel free to post):
Foongus up to B-rank
Munchlax down to B-rank (faces a lot of competition from other bulky stuff, hates burn and Knock Off more than the average Pokemon)
Vulpix down to B-rank (no Tangela)
Corphish down to C-rank (don't even remember why it was in B-rank)
Koffing down to C-rank (niche Gligar check, Fighting-types can Knock Off or kill or U-turn)
Lileep down to C-rank (ok mon, but doesn't do enough to warrant a teamslot outside of sand unless you are al_alchemist)
Spinarak down to C-rank (Sticky Web is way too exploitable and doesn't affect many of the top Pokemon in the tier)
Surskit down to C-rank (see Spinarak)
Goomy down to D-rank (Tangela gone, now trash)
Gothita down to D-rank (Trick is illegal with Shadow Tag, so it's kind of trash now)

I also want to move Cottonee down to D-rank because it's bad, but people defended it in #littlecup when I brought it up with the argument "it's better than everything in D-rank," which I disagree with. Not moving it yet because I don't want to get yelled at, but unless someone brings up a legitimate reason not to move it, I will move it down soon.

Again, I DO NOT CARE ABOUT CRAPPY IRRELEVANT POKEMON RIGHT NOW. The only reason why I'm moving crappy irrelevant Pokemon is because there's no reason for these Pokemon to be as high as they are, and I'm trimming the fat.

Things I want to see discussion on right now:
Swirlix
Meditite
Cottonee
Pokemon that might have improved/worsened since the departure of Yanma and Tangela
Other Pokemon above C-rank that you feel are unjustly high or low that have not already been shot down

 

[Expulso]

Cottonee
Pros:
• Priority Encore: "HAHA U SUK SWIRLIX"
• Priority Taunt makes it an effective anti-lead, and ensures set-up sweepers are unable to come in on it.
• Very bulky with Eviolite
• Great support movepool
Cons:
• No recovery outside of Leech Seed
• 6 weaknesses, including a 4x weakness to Poison

 

[Wobbyble]

Swirlix should be S rank, and definitely the next in line to be suspected if anythings going to be. Swirlix punishes mistakes like no other Pokemon in the tier, and is capable of running 3 different Unburden sets as well as a few different bulky Calm Mind sets.

Between its Cotton Guard, Calm Mind, and Belly Drum sets with Unburden Berry Juice, it's capable of putting immense amount of pressure and forces them to plan very far ahead just by sitting in the party. Since it's impossible to know what Belly Drum set it is before it's used, players have to consider each turn if it will allow for Swirlix to sweep. Meditite is not capable of 2HKOing Swirlix after a Cotton Guard or if it is carrying Protect, so it's not 100% reliable for dealing with Unburden Swirlix.

Swirlix has many checks like Slowpoke, Grimer, Foongus, Meditite, and most notably, Sturdy abusers. But if any of these are weakened slightly, missing Eviolite, or if some hazards are up, Swirlix is free to completely sweep the enemy team. One of the better sets in my opinion is the double boosting Cotton Guard + Calm Mind unburden sets. It can beat Meditite with ease if you get a free CG, and can clean up end game better than Yanma could. It's also pretty durable after just two boosts while abusing Draining Kiss' durability.

Cottonee is meh. It's funny when you encore stuff that tried to set up, and it's defensive typing is OK, but with only being able to Stun Spore and Leech Seed stuff, it can't touch grass types and really doesn't offer enough team support as something like Foongus or Spritzee.

Already expressed my thoughts on Meditite.

 

[Camden]

I would also like to recommend Swirlix for S rank. Its unpredictability helps propel it to another level. It can easily be carrying Cotton Guard to deter most physical checks/counters, or simply run increased coverage, which includes Dazzling Gleam/Draining Kiss, Flamethrower, Surf, Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Psychic, and a possible Hidden Power. While not able to run a support moveset as well as its defensive counterpart Spritzee, it still has Aromatherapy and Wish which it could splash in if possible.

Even if you're just looking at its most viable options, that still involves Calm Mind, Cotton Guard, a choice of 2 viable STABs, Surf, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, and Protect. That's an entire 8 moves--and that's assuming it's running the Special set. The Belly Drum set...that's a whole other story.

Like Wobby mentioned, hazard support basically gives Swirlix a free pass to handle its typical checks. Sturdy Smashers? Nope.

 

[Chieliee]

yeah, swirlix should be S rank. It's Calm Mind sets are good, but Belly Drum is what makes it so fucking good. After bulky shit like Slowpoke and Gligar have been knocked off, swirlix just wrecks offensive and defensive teams alike. it also resists the most common form of priority in Sucker Punch.

The only way to deal with Swirlix is having a sturdy mon like Magnemite, or something like fake out+bullet punch meditite. if you don't run these you're fucked

 

[The Quasar]

Cottonee
Pros:
• Priority Encore: "HAHA U SUK SWIRLIX"
• Priority Taunt makes it an effective anti-lead, and ensures set-up sweepers are unable to come in on it.
• Very bulky with Eviolite
• Great support movepool
Cons:
• No recovery outside of Leech Seed
• 6 weaknesses, including a 4x weakness to Poison

Adding about Pros:

• Priority weather (Sun) supporter (when Vulpix can't do anymore, because he was defeated)
  
• Priority annoying moves (Switcheroo, Swagger, new VI Gen Charm)

And he has his recovery with Giga Drain.

I think C-rank could be his right place.

 

[Expulso]

Adding about Pros:

• Priority weather (Sun) supporter (when Vulpix can't do anymore, because he was defeated)
  
• Priority annoying moves (Switcheroo, Swagger, new VI Gen Charm)

I think C-rank could be his right place.

It's not a very good Sun supporter, in my opinion, due to its bad synergy with most Sun sweepers.

 

[Kavatika]

Yeah Cottonee for D-rank. It's typing is still kinda meh, and it can't really deal with top-tier threats effectively. It may be annoying, but that is not really a niche. It also requires plenty of team support (haven't actually tried it but I'm sure this is true), and it can't do much outside of annoy people.

 

[Graycross]

Some of my thinking:

• Swirlix is S rank I think, it's fulfills the role of setup sweeper better than almost anything else, able to run a variety of effective sets depending on its desired role on the team.
• Goomy apparently warranted a C-rank for it's ability to provide a niche counter to Gligar, so I feel like Cottonee has some right to be there. It's ability to counter most setup sweepers despite other downfalls is still within the description of a C-Rank 'mon.
• Meditite has a small variety of sets, but generally fails to sweep without help. It is one of the best revenge killers in the tier, but suffers from predictability and frailty. I don't think Meditite is versatile enough to warrant S rank.

I also agree with kingler about Torchic and Clamperl deserving to go up. Torchic especially, it supports the entire tier so well, especially with the physical nature of the meta right now. Clamperl just deserves better then D, given the company it keeps down there. Zubat/Sewaddle? Clamperl is much more of a threat then either of those.

 

[Darkamber8828]

Also isn't scraggy better than B rank? Fairies etc etc i know but it's a potent sweeper and can deal with ghosts like missy with STAB buffed knock off. It has competition, sure, but yus it deserves A imo

+1 236+ Atk Scraggy Poison Jab vs. 20 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 22-28 (95.6 - 121.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
236+ Atk Scraggy Poison Jab vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mime Jr.: 20-24 (105.2 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236+ Atk Scraggy Poison Jab vs. 36 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 236+ Atk Scraggy Iron Head vs. 36 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 236+ Atk Scraggy Poison Jab vs. 212 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 14-18 (51.8 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 236+ Atk Scraggy Poison Jab vs. 212 HP / 212+ Def Spritzee: 20-24 (74 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236+ Atk Scraggy Poison Jab vs. 212 HP / 212+ Def Spritzee: 14-18 (51.8 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236+ Atk Scraggy Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 212 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 3-5 (11.1 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO

Spritzee is the only Fairy you need to worry about, and it doesn't like taking a +1 Poison Jab / Iron Head after its Eviolite has been knocked off.

Poison Jab destroys Cottonee so it's usually better. Iron Head only 3HKOs 212/36 Eviolite Croagunk at +1.

dd scraggy still wrecks everything except croagunk and timburr

 

[dcae]

Nothing has changed for Torchic since the ban; in fact, Torchic became worse because the two banned threats were both weak to its Fire STAB. Torchic now has a much harder time cleaning if you wanted to use it that way. It's still niche like it was and is perfect in B rank.

 

[The Quasar]

It's not a very good Sun supporter, in my opinion, due to its bad synergy with most Sun sweepers.

Supporter meaning that combi Prankster-Sunny Day could say (anless a suicide switch) => sure sunlight

/dexsearch Prankster, Sunny Day, LC

Riolu, Purrloin, Cottonee

The best pokemon could be that.

 

[Wobbyble]

Or you could just have reasonable offensive pressure and not let it set up? Many Dark-types can do loads of damage to it; murkrow's bb ohkoes most of the time, carv's waterfall hurts like fuck, pawniard i don't even have to mention. Oh, it can set up on fighting-types? I beg to differ. Most Fighting-types (mienfoo, timburr, scraggy, you name it) can knock it off on the switch (which i assume as swirlix needs to set up on these things). Not 4x-weak mons can take hits from it pretty well; CM doesn't destroy everything with stuff like munchlax and porygon running around. A testament to Swirlix's power is that it cannot OHKO ferroseed with flamethrower unless boosted :/ also, BD is cockblocked by so many steels like mag ferroseed and others like aron idk? can't think of too many steels atm

Meditite is good enough in A, it isn't that strong and can be checked (infact swirlix at full health can take bp + fake out :O)

Also isn't scraggy better than B rank? Fairies etc etc i know but it's a potent sweeper and can deal with ghosts like missy with STAB buffed knock off. It has competition, sure, but yus it deserves A imo

Also incase a foongus argument comes up, buffed knock off really cuts into foongus's bulk, and all the s-rankers fuck with it, so it shouldn't be A.

ALSO REITERATING MY CLAMPERL ARGUMENT; why is it in D? I'll quote my earlier arguments if I have to but d-rank is simply a disgrace. C-rank seems fine for it.

also pls send torchic back to a, its broken n_n

Only LO/Band Krow OHKOs, and even then proficient players can run proper EVs to live LO BBird which is something I like to do. Saying it can get knocked off on the switch is plain illogical. It's a set up sweeper, why the hell would you switch it in? You pivot to Swirlix or you send it in after something dies.
Yeah Munchlax and Porygon can shit on CM, but can they shit on Belly Drum? Like I said in my previous post, Swirlix simply being on the enemy team requires you to plan ahead, keeping certain Pokes healthy and away from Knock Off. But it's extremely hard to plan ahead and prepare for both CM and CD, which is why Swirlix merits S rank, and possibly the next hot seat for suspecting.