Resource LC Viability Rankings

[Max Carvalho]

I meant with DBond, sorry if I didn't express me well. EDIT: On Chou case ofc. Priority can get around DBond but remember, weak priority just gives carvanha a free hit. If you are planning to sacrifice Carv asap trying to keep its longevity is pointless. Carv shouldn't try to sweep with Pawn around and Sucker Punch will activate only if Carv attacks, which Carv shouldn't be doing if it is carring DBond. Mind games with Aqua Jet are possible but DBond is way better against Pawn.

 

[Superpowerdude]

Drop carv to mid A IMO but no lower. max Carvahlo already mentioned some key points. Sure carv may be an underwhelming sweeper but I feel like people aren't using it properly. I prefer it as a wall breaker for other sweepers it hits hard enough to weaken things for other Pokemon to break through and I think destiny bond should be included on all sets. A fast dbond lets carv take out many mons particularly Mienfoo who is so hard to kill due to regen and Drain Punch. I have used destiny bond carv as a lure to help wall break for tirtouga and I have used it on another team to wall break for scraggy in a similar way. Lures in shit like Mienfoo, Chinchou, which are very common threats and then eliminates them with dbond. Also keep in mind an Aqua Jet off of 19 atk Life Orb is a fairly strong priority to help with revenge killing.

However it's somewhat underwhelming power, frailty leaving it weak to common piority like Acro and mach punch an the fact that it missed its niche of revenge killing missy to warrant it a spot in A+

 

[boo836]

Drop carv to b+. It's a glass broom if I may call it that- a cleaner that can't live anything or deal too much. It's walled relatively easy and has MASSIVE competition in fletch and mienfoo, scraggy, ect.

It's just weak in comparison, and doesn't offer much compressed to the others.

 

[Yagura]

Drop carv to b+. It's a glass broom if I may call it that- a cleaner that can't live anything or deal too much. It's walled relatively easy and has MASSIVE competition in fletch and mienfoo, scraggy, ect.

It's just weak in comparison, and doesn't offer much compressed to the others.

I do agree with you when you said "it can't live anything", it's true Carvanha's really low defenses makes it get OHKOed even by neutral hits, but when you said that "it doesn't deal too much" then I have to disagree with you: First of all I don't understand why you'd think Carvanha can't do much, with a 90 Attack stat accompanied by Life Orb allows it to 2HKO most of Pokémon that don't resist its attacks in the worst scenario. And as a response to that "it's walled relatively easy" I have to say that it's true, but you won't use Carvanha until potential walls are down or weakened hence it's a late game cleaner. Also, you said that "it faces massive competition from Fletchling, Mienfoo and Scraggy", I don't really get what you meant with this one, each of the Pokémon you mentioned have a role that is different than Carvanha's and you should remember that it has Speed Boost which may give it a huge advantage over the mons you mentioned as well as Destiny Bond that may take down a Pokémon that walls a teammate (like Chinchou for Fletchling) to allow it to sweep relatively easier. So I don't know why you'd compare Carvanha to Pokémon that do totally different roles.

 

[boo836]

Carv faces competition as a cleaner, as I've already said @_@

 

[Superpowerdude]

Carv faces competition as a cleaner, as I've already said @_@

What about its function as a Great Wallbreaker with its powerful attacks and Destiny bond? Hell it's strong life orb boosted priority also let's it act as a revenge killer of sorts in some circumstances. Just because it is frail and faces competition with other cleaners doesn't mean it should drop all the way down to B+ because of the reasons mentioned above and the fact that it is a decent cleaner anyway

 

[antemortem]

Carv faces competition as a cleaner, as I've already said @_@

Foongus faces competition as a bulky Grass-type in A-Rank, Drilbur and Sandshrew are both great spinners that can also set rocks and act as an offensive pivot but none of that means that any of them should change positions. Competition normally doesn't mean that a Pokemon should drop or rise. In fact, it should mean the opposite; if one is giving another a run for it's money or they are balancing one another then there's even less of a reason to move them.

 

[TUO]

the rise of ferroseed and foongus does nothing but buff carvanha's viability. I don't know why you guys are acting like Carvanha's job is one-dimensional and easy to stop. Any Pokemon with Destiny Bond and sweeping prowess (as shown by the now banned Misdreavus) has some kind of way of threatening checks. Along with Knock Off, XY LC has always been a game (offensively at least) of wearing down checks with either lures, powerful wallbreakers, status, or Knock Off for a late game wincon to sweep. Carvanha isn't only just the late game wincon, Carvanha is a backup wincon while being able to use Priority and Destiny Bond to be a disrupting mid-game force. I am not saying this is the only way Carvanha can be played, or how it should be, but the option is there and carvanha shouldn't be looked at as one-dimensional. It might not have a lot of possible moves, but all that means is that it can cover a lot of helpful roles without suffering under 4MSS.

 

[antemortem]

if you read my post you would know I did not suggest moving either Ferro or Foongus

 

[boo836]

Foongus faces competition as a bulky Grass-type in A-Rank, Drilbur and Sandshrew are both great spinners that can also set rocks and act as an offensive pivot but none of that means that any of them should change positions. Competition normally doesn't mean that a Pokemon should drop or rise. In fact, it should mean the opposite; if one is giving another a run for it's money or they are balancing one another then there's even less of a reason to move them.

not when carv's checks are almost always an end-all and are extremely common. Sandshrew is largely outclassed, hence it isn't sitting in A with Drilbur. "Bulky Grass type" isn't a role. Foongus operates differently from other grass types, whereas Carv and Fletch do pretty much the same job.

 

[boo836]

TUO, Destiny Bond doesn't really stop checks. It just means you 141 instead of 241ing or whatever. For Carv, it doesn't work as well because a good portion of checks can just play around it. Foongus spores, ferro sets hazards, cottonee sets up hazards, chou can hit off with weak scalds and let lo recoil kill carv, ect ect

 

[Anthiese]

TUO, Destiny Bond doesn't really stop checks. It just means you 141 instead of 241ing or whatever. For Carv, it doesn't work as well because a good portion of checks can just play around it. Foongus spores, ferro sets hazards, cottonee sets up hazards, chou can hit off with weak scalds and let lo recoil kill carv, ect ect

Err what hazard is Cottonee setting?

What is 141ing and 241ing?

I still think a well played Destiny Bond will get the warranted KO on things that check Vanha though. Not all the time but it's still notable in my book.

not when carv's checks are almost always an end-all and are extremely common. Sandshrew is largely outclassed, hence it isn't sitting in A with Drilbur. "Bulky Grass type" isn't a role. Foongus operates differently from other grass types, whereas Carv and Fletch do pretty much the same job.

How is Bulky (insert type here) not a role? Can you explain that? Because we have Bulky Fires (Larv / Ponyta) Bulky Waters (Slowpoke / Tirt / Mantyke) Bulky Normals (Lickitung / Munchlax) Why cant we have Bulky Grass? All it consists of is a bulky Poke of that type.

Carv and Fletch do a similiar thing i'll agree yet Vanha cant pivot as well without a switchout move. Fletch also has recovery where as Vanha doesnt.

 

[BAKAResh]

TUO, Destiny Bond doesn't really stop checks. It just means you 141 instead of 241ing or whatever. For Carv, it doesn't work as well because a good portion of checks can just play around it. Foongus spores, ferro sets hazards, cottonee sets up hazards, chou can hit off with weak scalds and let lo recoil kill carv, ect ect

Let's take a look at what the A rank means

Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.

Now let's analyse Carvanha very briefly.

Pros:
- Capable of being a good sweeper as well as denting mons with LO Stabs thanks to it's 90/65/65 offenses and Speed boost.
- Capable of turning a bad matchup into one in your favor (Due to it's stellar speed + Destiny bond)
- Access to priority (Great for clean up duty)
- It can act as a great mon to take out potential counters and checks to your sweepers.

Cons:
- It is too frail.
- Reliance on Speed Boost
- It doesn't get Knock Off

Even a brief analysis reveals that it's Pros >>> Cons. But because of how frail it is, the opportunity cost to use this mon is slightly higher. To be very fair, we should be drawing links with Abra/Diglett/Gastly and other frail but offensively oriented mons of the viability rank of A. I don't see why we should under-rate this mon because it is still a very relevant threat. Being able to pack great offensive presence as well as forcing your opponent to be very conscientious about attacking this mon due to the threat of Destiny Bond, tells us that he is no less deserving of the A rank than any other frail offensive attackers in LC. BUT, it is apparent that it's frailty is major hindrance to Carv in this scenario because we are forced to run LO to maintain strong offensive pressure and this greatly reduces it's viability and due to the lack of recovery and strong pivoting moves, my overall comment is that even though it's frailty is a major con, it's offensive prowess still greatly outweigh it's frailty and in the hands of a experienced player (assuming everyone is equally experienced) , it will perform it's role well with little to less support.

Thus, we should drop it down to A at the very most. No more than that.

Edit : I was a retard. Carv doesn't get Knock Off. I was thinking of Foo.

 

[The Avalanches]

Let's take a look at what the A rank means

- It gets access to Knock Off as well.

It doesn't get Knock Off. It's best Dark STAB is Crunch

 

[boo836]

Err what hazard is Cottonee setting?

What is 141ing and 241ing?

I still think a well played Destiny Bond will get the warranted KO on things that check Vanha though. Not all the time but it's still notable in my book.



How is Bulky (insert type here) not a role? Can you explain that? Because we have Bulky Fires (Larv / Ponyta) Bulky Waters (Slowpoke / Tirt / Mantyke) Bulky Normals (Lickitung / Munchlax) Why cant we have Bulky Grass? All it consists of is a bulky Poke of that type.

Carv and Fletch do a similiar thing i'll agree yet Vanha cant pivot as well without a switchout move. Fletch also has recovery where as Vanha doesnt.

Er, meant encore with Cott rofl

241ing is two for one. 141 is one for one. 141s don't really grab momentum.

Bulky normals were only relevant because of Misdreavus centralizing the game to hell. There's no reason why something like bulky fires or bulky waters are even a thing, because there's no relevant use for them that requires a bully (type).

 

[Max Carvalho]

TUO, Destiny Bond doesn't really stop checks. It just means you 141 instead of 241ing or whatever. For Carv, it doesn't work as well because a good portion of checks can just play around it. Foongus spores, ferro sets hazards, cottonee sets up hazards, chou can hit off with weak scalds and let lo recoil kill carv, ect ect

141 isn't bad if it is that what you means. You see, a 141 with Carvanha using Destiny Bond will, or at least should, leave a HUGE hole in the opposing team, while Carvanha's team is obviously with the upper hand so I don't see the point on that. And the great thing on Carvanha is that it can actually do 241 or w/e so the opposing side is threatened because it knows that if they don't attack, Carvanha can cause huge damage to them. The examples you gave are all prediction reliant to work, except Cottonee and Foongus ones as they can deal with Carvanha, especially the former, but the latter will have some problems eating an Crunch, especially in late-game when it is probably with its Eviolite Knocked Off and maybe weakened.

 

[Anthiese]

Er, meant encore with Cott rofl

241ing is two for one. 141 is one for one. 141s don't really grab momentum.

Bulky normals were only relevant because of Misdreavus centralizing the game to hell. There's no reason why something like bulky fires or bulky waters are even a thing, because there's no relevant use for them that requires a bully (type).

>There's no reason why something like bulky fires or bulky waters are even a thing, because there's no relevant use for them that requires a bully (type).

It's always been that way. Always. Literally every game, every meta, every gen has had a bulky mon of some type fit in this category.

 

[boo836]

>There's no reason why something like bulky fires or bulky waters are even a thing, because there's no relevant use for them that requires a bully (type).

It's always been that way. Always. Literally every game, every meta, every gen has had a bulky mon of some type fit in this category.

What do bulky fires and waters do now? There's no need for a general bulky fire type.

 

[Anthiese]

What do bulky fires and waters do now? There's no need for a general bulky fire type.

Uh Ponyta and Larvesta deter most physical contact mons with Flame Body and they also beat Spritzee who would try to heal their burns

Bulky Waters are obv Slowpoke, Chinchou, and Tirtouga.

I dont want to spend more time arguing with you over this. You cannot just act like these terms for mons dont exist or arent needed. They are just another name really at this point.

 

[boo836]

Uh Ponyta and Larvesta deter most physical contact mons with Flame Body and they also beat Spritzee who would try to heal their burns

Bulky Waters are obv Slowpoke, Chinchou, and Tirtouga.

I dont want to spend more time arguing with you over this. You cannot just act like these terms for mons dont exist or arent needed. They are just another name really at this point.

Yeah, except you didn't talk about WHY they are needed. Stuff like Ponyta and Larvesta's Flame Body are helpful perks, but it's not like those are what people use them for. Chinchou, Slowpoke, and Tirt have COMPLETELY DIFFERENT uses. The condition of being water types themselves doesn't provide a specific use of these Pokémon. When considering viability, there's absolutely no reason to consider that Foongus has other competition with Cottonee, Pumpkaboo, ect, simply because they all do WAY different things. These painfully vague and useless terms really don't have much place in viability discussions :l

 

[Coconut]

Stuff like Ponyta and Larvesta's Flame Body are helpful perks, but it's not like those are what people use them for.

That's what I use them for...

 

[boo836]

That's what I use them for...

Then apparently you're not making an optimal team. You really shouldn't be using anything for the 30% chance of a minor advantage.

Never mind that you're using BULKY FLAME BODY users

 

[inscribe]

Drilbur A Rank --> A+ Rank

Drilbur is definitely a common threat in this metagame. It aids offensive teams with Stealth Rock support, and can use Rapid Spin to clear the omnipresent Stealth Rock. Drilbur does this job very well, and is a very reliable lead. Drilbur can also use Poison Jab to hit one of its biggest 'checks'; Cottonee. Nothing in the Little Cup metagame can do its job well, and it can also use a variety of other sets. On a Sandstorm team, Drilbur is your premier Sand Rush sweeper; he greatly outclasses Sandshrew in the slaying department. Drilbur can also run a viable Choice Scarf set; Mold Breaker Choice Scarf sets can beat extremely common threats like Chinchou, Gastly, Magnemite, and can prevent Sturdy Juice Tirtouga from setting up a Shell Smash.

Yet, I don't think Drilbur deserves the almighty S Rank. Drilbur is plagued by the common spinblockers in this Metagame (Pumpkaboo, Phantump, Duskull, and occasionally Gastly I guess, but Gastly can't really switch in for free considering Drilbur packs Earthquake), which don't let him fulfill his amazing role of setting and removing hazards. Drilbur is also walled by a large amount of dedicated walls in the Little Cup metagame, including the aforementioned Ghost Types, Spritzee, Snubbull, and is ultimately set-up bait for a healthy Clamperl.

Take this as food for thought, and feel free to correct my statements; I'm not the biggest expert on Drilbur.

 

[Superpowerdude]

Yeah, except you didn't talk about WHY they are needed. Stuff like Ponyta and Larvesta's Flame Body are helpful perks, but it's not like those are what people use them for. Chinchou, Slowpoke, and Tirt have COMPLETELY DIFFERENT uses. The condition of being water types themselves doesn't provide a specific use of these Pokémon. When considering viability, there's absolutely no reason to consider that Foongus has other competition with Cottonee, Pumpkaboo, ect, simply because they all do WAY different things. These painfully vague and useless terms really don't have much place in viability discussions :l

People use pony and larvesta in similar ways which gives them the label "bulky fire-types" they both prevent Knock Off spam with Flame Body, they wall Fairy Types, bulky grass-types (yes that's a thing) they spread burn and the are quite good switchins to pawn because of the burn chance and being resistant to Iron Head. If I'm running a balanced team for example I may be weak to knock off, weak to Pawnaird, weak to fairies and think to fix this I will run a bulky Fire-type then I way the costs and benefits of Larvesta and Ponyta for example on my team. If I got hazards covered well and I need a pivot I will go with Larvesta, etc. Also a 30% chance to burn is great for Pokemon that have recovery and can constantly switch in to physical attackers

Bulky Grass-types are a similar role and they definitely can be compared in terms of costs/benefits to a team. Many bulky grass-types provide amazing support and are useful for sponging powerful water type moves from Pokemon like Tirtouga, Carvanha, Corphish, Chinchou. Say you need to have a switch in to these on your team, ferroseed, Cottonee and Foongus are your main options then in terms of your team you can compare which one is the best fit. If I have fighting types covered and I want hazard support maybe I choose ferroseed, if I like options such as Encore and Memento to help my sweepers I choose Cottonee if I want Foongus to have better coverage against fighting types and fairies as well as provide Spore as a support Then Foongus is the best for the team.

These terms don't have to be used, but Pokemon like these are often use for similar reasons with slight differences warranting them each spots on different teams I don't think it's fair you say these have no place in viability discussions when your sometimes post one liners regarding mons being discussed.

Also I am nominating Shellder for B+ there are many offensive teams that really on either Abra or Fletchling as there main method of Revenge killing sweepers and Shellder can get around both with multi hit moves ignoring sash and Ice Shard outspeeding Acrobatics after a Shell Smash. Although it doesn't have Sturdy, it's great physical bulk lets it Shell Smash quite easily and unlike other Water-types, it doesn't fear Foongus switch-ins because of Icicle Spear.

It's main downside is it's inability to get through steels if it's not running Ice Shard and with Pawnaird being quite common, this can be a problem. It does need eviolites removed / pokes worn down to sweep sometimes but that's like many mons I guess

 

[Nabilla Benattia]

I would like to nominate slowpoke to move up to at least B rank, probably higher. Even in a metagame so utterly dominated by knock off, slowpoke holds more than its own. Even with a psychic typing, the high overall defense, regeneration and support it can offer with thunder wave offsets these weaknesses. Slowpoke does have trouble taking some trouble taking hits from some of the tier's top threats (read pawniard), and usually will be hit hard by knock off, it's defenses even without it's eviolite are acceptable, and with the passive recovery from regenerator it can still hang around long enough to spread paralysis and burns, supporting the team and taking on Fletchling, Tortuga, drillbur, and digglet (along with a lot of others if you're willing to lose the eviolite). In my oppinion, all of this makes it at least B, if not B+.