Resource LC Viability Rankings

[Aaron's Aron]

When that Pokemon is one of the best Pokemon in the meta, it does sort of hurt its viability, and in my opinion Chinchou is closer to a counter than a check. It also faces trouble from a lot of other very common 'mons, such as Drilbur, Ponyta, and Mienfoo, and it can't switch into flying types reliably, as they literally all have U-Turn (Fletchling, Archen, Taillow) to break its sturdy.

Magnemite ---> A

Again, Drilbur and Mienfoo, for example, can not switch into Magnemite. If Magnemite Volt Switches then you have a favorable match up against these Pokemon. If you stay in and Thunderbolt/Flash Cannon they are 2HKOd. And yeah, Chinchou is more of a counter. However, Fletchling is countered by Chinchou, and it is still one of the best Pokemon in the tier. Also, why do you guys keep assuming Magnemite is running a Sturdy set and not the Choice Scarf set??? The Choice Scarf set is great too!

 

[SilentMango]

Just rethrowing some random ideas out there for magnemite moving down from A+ rank to A. Just my opinion.

1. If it is a scarfed magnemite and it gets locked into t-bolt, then a ground type will really ruin the momentum. If it has used a hidden power (say ground) vs chinchou, it will deal a hefty chunk, but the opponent can then switch out into say mienfoo, and really ruin your day, u-turning and breaking your sturdy, knocking off Berry Juice, or just hitting hard with a drain punch if the aforementioned things had happened.

2. Chinchou and Magnemite can play similar roles (scarfer, bulky attacker). I am still a pretty mediocre player, so I don't really know which one is better at the moment, but I think Chinchou is a little better at these.

3. If it is sturdy juice Magnemite, If Mienfoo switches in, it will take the damage from say thunderbolt, out speed, and be able to drain punch/knock off or do what it wants do it.

4. Stealth Rock is fairly common, which breaks the sturdy of magnemite. I don't know where I heard this, maybe not in LC but I think I heard a few people say that we should just always assume SR is up on the field while doing calcs( I could totally be imagining this, but just saying)

5. I will give you the unpredictability of the sets it has though, because for scenarios 1 and 3, you have to know which sets Magnemite is running, and in the meantime, you could loose or have a pokemon get severely dented.

In general, I think that Magnemite is a great pokemon with the access to the amazing sturdy juice combo, amazing special attack, and a fair amount of diversity. However, I do think that Magnemite is as stellar as an A+ Rank pokemon should be, but decently close, and that Magnemite should be moved from the stellar A+ rank down to the still really amazing A rank.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

Just rethrowing some random ideas out there for magnemite moving down from A+ rank to A. Just my opinion.

1. If it is a scarfed magnemite and it gets locked into t-bolt, then a ground type will really ruin the momentum. If it has used a hidden power (say ground) vs chinchou, it will deal a hefty chunk, but the opponent can then switch out into say mienfoo, and really ruin your day, u-turning and breaking your sturdy, knocking off Berry Juice, or just hitting hard with a drain punch if the aforementioned things had happened.

2. Chinchou and Magnemite can play similar roles (scarfer, bulky attacker). I am still a pretty mediocre player, so I don't really know which one is better at the moment, but I think Chinchou is a little better at these.

3. If it is sturdy juice Magnemite, If Mienfoo switches in, it will take the damage from say thunderbolt, out speed, and be able to drain punch/knock off or do what it wants do it.

4. Stealth Rock is fairly common, which breaks the sturdy of magnemite. I don't know where I heard this, maybe not in LC but I think I heard a few people say that we should just always assume SR is up on the field while doing calcs( I could totally be imagining this, but just saying)

5. I will give you the unpredictability of the sets it has though, because for scenarios 1 and 3, you have to know which sets Magnemite is running, and in the meantime, you could loose or have a pokemon get severely dented.

In general, I think that Magnemite is a great pokemon with the access to the amazing sturdy juice combo, amazing special attack, and a fair amount of diversity. However, I do think that Magnemite is as stellar as an A+ Rank pokemon should be, but decently close, and that Magnemite should be moved from the stellar A+ rank down to the still really amazing A rank.

1. Well yes, but it is like that for every Pokemon... and 4 out of 5 times you will be using Volt Switch anyways, so it won't matter that you're locked into a move. If the opponent has a Ground-type, it will be pretty obvious when it switches in, and you obviously wouldn't leave yourself open to a Ground-type switch-in while locked into Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt is just for once you have cleared all the threats out of the way.

2. I was not comparing Chinchou and Magnemite... Also their roles are slightly different. This is an irrelevant point.

3. Well yeah, but just switch out! You obviously wouldn't stay in lol. And it's not like it was a loss for you - Mienfoo definitely didn't like taking that Thunderbolt! Also, if you are running the StrudyJuice set, you would Volt Switch into a check anyways unless you knew you could KO with Thunderbolt. Don't let yourself get into the situation you described, simple as that.

4. That is correct - Stealth Rock is very common. However, if you have a SturdyJuice Magnemite on your team you should have a hazard remover. That is just bad teambuilding on your part if you don't have an answer for hazards breaking Sturdy.

If you use Magnemite correctly, and use the correct moves at the correct time on the Choice Scarf set in particular, you shouldn't be having issues. It is just fantastic. I feel like I am repeating a lot of the same points, but I don't know what else to say besides just use it correctly!

 

[Good Morgan]

1. Well yes, but it is like that for every Pokemon... and 4 out of 5 times you will be using Volt Switch anyways, so it won't matter that you're locked into a move. If the opponent has a Ground-type, it will be pretty obvious when it switches in, and you obviously wouldn't leave yourself open to a Ground-type switch-in while locked into Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt is just for once you have cleared all the threats out of the way.

2. I was not comparing Chinchou and Magnemite... Also their roles are slightly different. This is an irrelevant point.

3. Well yeah, but just switch out! You obviously wouldn't stay in lol. And it's not like it was a loss for you - Mienfoo definitely didn't like taking that Thunderbolt! Also, if you are running the StrudyJuice set, you would Volt Switch into a check anyways unless you knew you could KO with Thunderbolt. Don't let yourself get into the situation you described, simple as that.

4. That is correct - Stealth Rock is very common. However, if you have a SturdyJuice Magnemite on your team you should have a hazard remover. That is just bad teambuilding on your part if you don't have an answer for hazards breaking Sturdy.

If you use Magnemite correctly, and use the correct moves at the correct time on the Choice Scarf set in particular, you shouldn't be having issues. It is just fantastic. I feel like I am repeating a lot of the same points, but I don't know what else to say besides just use it correctly!

You bring up Volt Turn a bunch, but if I see a Magnemite I am immediately switching in a Ground type for that specific reason.

Also, once again, Magnemite will be switching in to absolutely nothing. Not rocks, not any attack at all, or Sturdy is gone, and it's subseptible. Chinchou, Magnemite's main competitor, will find itself switching in often, especially on Magnemite!

Also, again with Volt Turn, who's to say you wont get U/Volt Turned out on?

In terms of being outclassed by Chinchou, (because their roles are, in fact, very similar) the number of roles that Magnemite can effectively fill is two, while Chinchou can have up to 4. Magnemite effectively runs a Scarf set and a (pseudo)bulky attacker set. Chinchou can run both of these sets, plus a Cleric set and/or a RestTalk set. The best part about those two is that they can be combined, though that is not the most effective of Chinchou's sets.

Though Magnemite is still rather good, being outclassed by another A+ pokemon in typing, versatility, and hazard weakness should warrant a separation of the two.

EDIT: You know who else can switch in on Magnemite? Timburr. Simply take the standard spread, switch the nature to Careful, and then:

240+ SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 76 HP / 156+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
(10, 10, 10, 10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

Magnemite A+ -> A

 

[sparktrain]

It seems as though many of the Magnemite->A arguments say hazards break Sturdy, therefore it can't switch in on rocks, or it can't really switch in on anything. I'd like to bring up that the Endure set is still quite popular (last months stats show that it's on 1/3 of Magnemite) and effective. While it sacrifices HP Ground, it allows Magnemite to check a plethora a mons even after switching into hazards or a weak hit. Consider this, Endure Magnemite is able to switch in on Volt Switch and U-turn, and counterintuitively gain momentum thanks to Endure and Sturdy. In fact, with Endure+BJ, it effectively acts as a safety net to a variety of boosted threats in a similar fashion to Abra, but Magnemite can actually switch into things.

I'd be willing to go into more detail about keeping Mag in A+, but it's a bit late for me right now.

also

EDIT: You know who else can switch in on Magnemite? Timburr. Simply take the standard spread, switch the nature to Careful, and then:

240+ SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 76 HP / 156+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
(10, 10, 10, 10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

that spread is kinda inefficient (no eviolite numbers), try 116 Atk / 156 Def / 236+ SpD instead. much bulkier, and helps your point a little better

240+ SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 76 HP / 156+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock -- shaky
240+ SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock -- better

 

[Iron Caliber]

I feel like Fletchling's myriad of checks and counters is the only thing keeping it from being able to sweep the entire metagame with one move and one boost. It should stay S, at least for now, because being prepared for it is simply just part of the meta nowadays, like Briyella said earlier. Anything that centralizing needs to stay in S. I mean, think about the other S-rank mons in LC. Mienfoo is absolutely amazing and can perform an incredible amount of roles with ease, being backed up by a great movepool and an awesome ability in Regenerator. Pawniard has the strongest Knock Off and Sucker Punch in the game, and with Knock Off being so crucial in the tier, Pawniard is basically the king of punishing. Fletchling can act as both a revenge killer and a sweeper, and it does both impeccably. Priority STAB Acrobatics is devastating, and it's something that the Fighting-dominant meta of LC has to prepare for.

And quite honestly, Fletchling's rise has led to a lot of other Pokemon becoming viable in the process, which is very healthy for the metagame. We've seen Pawniard and Mienfoo doing the same thing; they've allowed players to introduce their checks into the metagame as more than just checks. Snubbull, Croagunk, and Trubbish are good examples of this. Fletchling is exactly the same. It's a pokemon that is both ever-present and brings opportunities. We're seeing Pokemon like Omanyte, Onix, Archen, and defensive Tirtouga be played more often, all because of Fletchling. It's an important Pokemon, checked or not, so it deserves to stay in S where other influential Pokemon belong.

 

[Stratis]

I have mixed feelings on magnemite, but if anything moved down from A+ it seems the most reasonable.

• On the positive side it hits hard, wrecks birds, t-wave/v-switch, some useful resistances, sturdy juice, and it threatens fairies.
• On the other hand the weaknesses it does have are common, removing rocks to protect sturdy isn't always possible, it's movepool is very poor making hp grass/ground important for damaging with chinchou/goldeen/magnemite/elekid, it's still walled by ferroseed, and diglet/trapinch force you to play carefully.

I'd like to see discussion on Fletchling and whether it should move down. It's such a metagame defining Pokemon, but is that its downfall, and is it now easier to handle than ever?

I don't see fletch going anywhere. If it's struggling to sweep cause teams are building themselves around it then it's already proving itself by simply existing. It's still the strongest priority user in the mega and I imagine it's going to be talked about more if flying gem is released. Personally, I was hoping it went away with missy and with how many votes it was getting it seemed like it would. Even if it's not broken enough to be banned it's still a burden on team building. Every single grass/fighting/bug types viability is instantly called into question as to whether it's worth having an extra fletch weakness on a team.

Electric and rock are the only type that can reliably wall fletch. Even when deciding on a scarfer to use fletch should be considered. Something frail like scarf bunnelby can just die to a bravebird if not switched. The only positive things I'd have to say about fletch is that it keeps some problematic pokes and play styles in check. Fighting types are almost out of control and sun teams are difficult to deal with. Luckily there aren't many viable grass or bug types currently to be oppressed by fletch but you never know what the next generation could bring.

However, fletch hasn't discouraged the use of mienfoo which has rose yet again in the absence of missy to the same staggering 60% usage that missy was at before it's ban.

http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-10/lc-1760.0.txt

It's not like we didn't expect mienfoo to rise in usage from 50% and it could easily exceed 60%. There is no denying how strong and reliable foo is in this meta.

One change I'd like to see is Vullaby: A- > A but maybe that's just me.

 

[fran17]

You bring up Volt Turn a bunch, but if I see a Magnemite I am immediately switching in a Ground type for that specific reason.

If i see a Magnemite i prefear to switch on a bulky grass mon thath doesn't get 2HKOed by Flash Cannon, especially because all the viable ground type can't switch safely on scarf Magne if it use Flash Cannon

Hide

240+ SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Diglett: 16-19 (88.8 - 105.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

240+ SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. 212 HP / 20 SpD Eviolite Hippopotas: 12-15 (46.1 - 57.6%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

240+ SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. 124 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Sandshrew: 12-15 (52.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

240+ SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Drilbur: 12-15 (52.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[kingmidas]

I'm not gonna quote any post because multiple people have said it by now. Viability rankings are to show how a mon does in the current meta, or how viable of a choice it is. It doesn't matter what it was before, and the meta adapting to a mon as much as we have to fletchling, is extremely unhealthy to fletchling's viability Also this isn't a suspect test, who gives a fuck if fletchling made other mons healthy, it'll still do that in A+ rank, I'm just trying to place fletchling in a better viability ranking, because it requires to much support to get past its nowdays extremely common and already dangerous counters. And its not like we adapted by running bad mons, all of these mons would drop maybe 1/3 or 2/3 a rank without fletchling (ofc theres amaura but there are already so many good checks and counters). If you need an example, look at the RU viability rankings, and Doublade dropping from S after so long, and it can actually get past its checks with SD, priority, bulk up its ass, and awesome stabs. Wanna know why, because its prepared for so much now (and the raise of moltres).
Edit: Fran17, ferro is the only grass type that can really not be 2HKOed by flash cannon outside of perfect conditions.

Calcs

240+ SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
240+ SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Foongus: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)
So basically it switches in once with eviolite. Also another mon people think foongus can handle but really doesn't.
240+ SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. 228 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Chespin: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
240+ SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. 228 HP / 236 SpD Chespin: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)
This guy until oras can't do crap to magnemite and doesn't have regen.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Even with all the preparation for Fletchling, I still think it's strong enough to be S-rank. As Iron Caliber mentioned, Fletchling is simultaneously one of the most effective revenge-killers and win conditions available; I'm not sure how comparable the RU metagame is to the LC metagame, but I don't think Doublade is nearly as good a revenge-killer, a role that doesn't require all that much support. When Fletchling was nominated for S-rank before its suspect, the decision was almost unanimous, because even though its flaws are more noticeable than those of the other S-ranks, its strengths are also arguably more prominent, given how its mere existence renders several team archetypes noticeably less viable. Keep in mind that even at the time of the suspect, there was significant usage of Fletchling's checks and counters; I do not think the metagame has changed enough since then for us to consider Fletchling less viable.

I have no qualms with Croagunk to A; its typing gives it a great match-up against a very large portion of the metagame, especially when against more defensive teams. The utility check set is still as annoying as ever, but it looks as if offensive sweeping sets are gaining popularity, taking advantage of its phenomenal STABs to pose as a significant offensive threat. Croagunk's ability and resistance to Stealth Rock often allow it to outlast its answers, and its sheer disruptiveness as well as the number of ways it can disrupt probably warrants a rise.

I would also like to nominate Staryu for B+. I've been sticking Staryu onto pretty much all of my teams recently and consider it more or less the go-to hazard remover for defensively inclined teams because it doesn't have to rely on Defog and isn't weak to Stealth Rock, unlike Vullaby or Archen, and has access to reliable recovery, an extremely important trait for a defensive Pokemon, unlike Drilbur. It certainly holds its weight outside of Rapid Spinning, of course, acting as easily one of the best Drilbur checks available, who is otherwise often quite troublesome for defensive teams, as well as acting as a soft check to a large number of other threats, including but not limited to Fletchling, Archen, Ponyta, Carvanha, and Omanyte, and spreading Scald burns. Other than that, Staryu also functions decently on offensive teams, taking advantage of its great speed and good coverage moves to act as a potent late-game sweeper, while still providing Rapid Spin support for the rest of the team, although I would imagine it's a bit less valuable since sustainability isn't as important in fast-paced matches and there are already a lot of great offensive Water-types so Drilbur or supportchen would probably suffice as a hazard remover.

 

[boo836]

Every S mon is prepared for though. The presence of Archen, Chou, ect have never stopped Fletch from being used as it's perfectly capable of scouting the switch and coming in later to sweep/clean. We shouldn't really overlook the fact that Fletch is capable of so much with one set, with being a little momentum machine, a cleaner, a win condition, a supporter (with Tailwind), and a lure (with mixed). I'd say it's pretty damn versatile, especially for a supposed A mon.

Also recommending Mienfoo be put on G rank. It ALWAYS generates momentum and is definitely the best pivot in the game. It's got bulk, survivability, checks important stuff like Pawn, slow U-Turn, AND Knock Off. It's capable of filling roles as a wallbreaker, revenge killer, hell even a Passer. It's got moveset options out of the wazoo, and even absorbs Knock Off. No other Pokemon in this meta has anything close to the same flexibility as Mienfoo (and arguably, no Pokemon in lc ever had). I'm certain that if Foo is getting 50% or so of usage that it probably should be recognized as being a cut above the rest.

 

[kingmidas]

Even with all the preparation for Fletchling, I still think it's strong enough to be S-rank. As Iron Caliber mentioned, Fletchling is simultaneously one of the most effective revenge-killers and win conditions available; I'm not sure how comparable the RU metagame is to the LC metagame, but I don't think Doublade is nearly as good a revenge-killer, a role that doesn't require all that much support. When Fletchling was nominated for S-rank before its suspect, the decision was almost unanimous, because even though its flaws are more noticeable than those of the other S-ranks, its strengths are also arguably more prominent, given how its mere existence renders several team archetypes noticeably less viable. Keep in mind that even at the time of the suspect, there was significant usage of Fletchling's checks and counters; I do not think the metagame has changed enough since then for us to consider Fletchling less viable.

please list these "archtypes" it ruins. Again you talk about before or during the suspect, its because people clearly overlooked how it required more than enough support to be considered S rank, if anything diglett was more of an issue than fletchling alone. Generally fletchling just ends up losing momentum every turn it uses acro, as magnemite, pawniard, chinchou, they all hit hard as hell and (except in pawn's case) can grab momentum back. No ones run tailwind boo, but yeah it is a viable option I forgot. Though as I said mixed isn't a lure, it beats like 2 of its answers at best, and its on the analysis so people will expect and prepare for it.
Edit: Also I wasn't comparing doublade to fletchling that similarly, just the fact they were both S rank and both are really prepared for. A better example would be fletchling to fletchinder who has will-o-wisp to actually handle its checks/counters, yet its only A in RU.

 

[gali]

"It's prepared for" isn't that strong an argument when you consider that Fletchling essentially provides its own support with U-Turn. Not to mention that it can beat any of its checks it wants to with one of Overheat/HP Grass/Steel Wing. It's not as defining as it used to be, but is still definitely S.

Also, can we get some discussion on moving Onix to B+? I've brought it up twice and it hasn't gotten any discussion whatsoever.

 

[Stratis]

"It's prepared for" isn't that strong an argument when you consider that Fletchling essentially provides its own support with U-Turn. Not to mention that it can beat any of its checks it wants to with one of Overheat/HP Grass/Steel Wing. It's not as defining as it used to be, but is still definitely S.

Also, can we get some discussion on moving Onix to B+? I've brought it up twice and it hasn't gotten any discussion whatsoever.

Honestly, I've been pretty underwhelmed by onix. It was one of the pokes I feel should go down and not up. Sturdy juice and rocks is cool but it really lacks power and any of the popular fighting types can just spam knock off and drain punch on it.

I would also like to nominate Staryu for B+

This move was one that I agreed with. I wrote out some changes I felt made sense. I feel they could use discussion, however, I don't expect people to agree or for them to be implemented.

Vullaby: A- > A
Magnemite: A+ > A
Zigzagoo: B+ > A-
Scraggy: B+ > B
Bellsprout: B > B+
Staryu: B > B+
Onix: B > B-
Surskit: C+ > B-
Shelder: B > B+
Cacnea: C- > D

The following are pokes I feel have enough potential to move up from D-rank:
Minccino: D > C
Ekans: D > C-
Rufflets: D > C-

 

[The Quasar]

I agree with Tahu ,"It's prepared for" about Fletching is for me a fleble argument imo. I have supported that also for RU Doublade, usage and strong are a good litmus test to starting a ranking evalutation.
Prority Acrobatic is always a obscure presence, only a counter/checker could be not enough to defeat it. We are just described many arguments about S-Rank for Fletching and I agree with them.

 

[antemortem]

Onix is one of those guaranteed rocks setters but thankfully its offenses are pretty shit so even Onix that gets rocks up and explodes as an endgame isn't doing very much. I think its defenses and speed are great but it's not a cut above anything in particular and doesn't have anything warranting moving up

 

[Good Morgan]

Honestly, I've been pretty underwhelmed by onix. It was one of the pokes I feel should go down and not up. Sturdy juice and rocks is cool but it really lacks power and any of the popular fighting types can just spam knock off and drain punch on it.



This move was one that I agreed with. I wrote out some changes I felt made sense. I feel they could use discussion, however, I don't expect people to agree or for them to be implemented.

Vullaby: A- > A
Magnemite: A+ > A
Zigzagoo: B+ > A-
Scraggy: B+ > B
Bellsprout: B > B+
Staryu: B > B+
Onix: B > B-
Surskit: C+ > B-
Shelder: B > B+
Cacnea: C- > D

The following are pokes I feel have enough potential to move up from D-rank:
Minccino: D > C
Ekans: D > C-
Rufflets: D > C-

Surskit C+ -> B- Yes
Surskit has a really good niche as a Sticky Web setter, but most people don't look past that. With a Focus Sash equipped and at a very high speed tier, Surskit is almost guaranteed to get one more attack off. What people often fail to realize is that, since Skit's defenses aren't that great, it shouldn't be going for all out power. Rather, with a cool combo of Scald and Struggle Bug, it can cripple any type of attacker for when it goes down! I totally agree with this!

Scraggy B+ -> B Yes
I agree with this nomination. Scraggy is great for sweeping the low ladder, but find competition in it's roles from other, better Fighting types. This makes using Scraggy a question of opportunity cost: do you use the inferior Fighting type? Do you need Scraggy's particular niches? Overall, still a threat, but a normal B threat indeed.

Bellsprout B -> B+ Yes
Holy flip, yes. This thing DESTROYS in sun, and would be an A+ mon if it weren't for that sun dependence.

Magnemite A+ -> A Well, yeah, duh

Zigzagoon B+ -> A- No
B+ is the perfect fit for Zig: Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

Other than that, I haven't used any of em so I dunno

 

[SilentMango]

Points that Stratis made that I agree with.
Ekans: D > C-
I honestly think that Ekans isn't so bad that is in D rank. Ekans has alot of interesting support options including glare and thief, or even switcheroo (choice band switcheroo ekans?) if you really felt like it. Ekans also has a pretty good set up move in the form of coil as well. It's move pool could be a little wider, but it has access to great poison stabs (power over accuracy and pp- gunk shot or pp and accuracy and still good power- ekans), earthquake that has good coverage with poison STAB, grass type moves, water type moves, and rock type moves besides hidden power, as well as sucker punch. Ekans also can make a great switch-in to a lot of fighting type pokemon with it's intimidate ability and poison typing. In conclusion, I agree with Stratis that Ekans is not as bad as a D rank pokemon, because it has "interesting" support options, a nice set up move, an interesting move pool, and a pretty good ability. Ekans can also be the coil set or just pure support, so it isn't completely linear.

I also agree with: Staryu: B > B+
I feel like someone has already made a solid claim that I agree with on Staryu. It is a good Drilbur switch-in, is a hazard remover that isn't weak to stealth rocks (I know drilbur isn't either as well) has a good offensive presence, has an endlessly broad move pool, including the amazing scald, and psychic can nail fighting types hard, as well as incoming foongus. Natural Cure while isn't the most amazing ability ever is still nice to have. Staryu also has access to recover as well, so it just might have the longest life of all hazard removers.

Just my 2 cents, feel free to disagree

 

[Aaron's Aron]

You bring up Volt Turn a bunch, but if I see a Magnemite I am immediately switching in a Ground type for that specific reason.

Also, once again, Magnemite will be switching in to absolutely nothing. Not rocks, not any attack at all, or Sturdy is gone, and it's subseptible. Chinchou, Magnemite's main competitor, will find itself switching in often, especially on Magnemite!

Also, again with Volt Turn, who's to say you wont get U/Volt Turned out on?

In terms of being outclassed by Chinchou, (because their roles are, in fact, very similar) the number of roles that Magnemite can effectively fill is two, while Chinchou can have up to 4. Magnemite effectively runs a Scarf set and a (pseudo)bulky attacker set. Chinchou can run both of these sets, plus a Cleric set and/or a RestTalk set. The best part about those two is that they can be combined, though that is not the most effective of Chinchou's sets.

Though Magnemite is still rather good, being outclassed by another A+ pokemon in typing, versatility, and hazard weakness should warrant a separation of the two.

EDIT: You know who else can switch in on Magnemite? Timburr. Simply take the standard spread, switch the nature to Careful, and then:

240+ SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 76 HP / 156+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
(10, 10, 10, 10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

Magnemite A+ -> A

If you have a Ground-type, you obviously wouldn't spam Volt Switch though! Any good player would easily predict the switch and Flash Cannon for the 2HKO or double switch into a safe check. I am not going to keep repeating the same points that you obviously aren't getting though because I don't want clog up the thread.

EDIT: You know who else can switch in on Magnemite? Timburr. Simply take the standard spread, switch the nature to Careful, and then:

240+ SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 76 HP / 156+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
(10, 10, 10, 10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

Magnemite A+ -> A

Lol. Sparktrain already explained why this is bad. Thanks sparktrain. :)

 

[The Quasar]

...
Minccino: D > C

About this, I'm playing with it for LC Research. I write my cent about next week. ;)

 

[Aaron's Aron]

Magnemite: A+ > A
Zigzagoo: B+ > A-
Bellsprout: B > B+
Surskit: C+ > B-
Shelder: B > B+
Minccino: D > C

Magnemite: GG. I'm done. -_-

Bellsprout: It is a good Pokemon under the sun, but it is pretty terrible without it. Even under the sun though it can be stopped fairly easily. It just requires to much support.

Surskit: NO. The way I look at it, anything in the A or B ranks are something that I could see on a team and not think it is a strange choice. I feel like they are something I should account for when building a team, and are a serious threat I should take into consideration. Honestly, when I see Surskit, I think I am already up 6-5. Sure, it will get Webs up nine times out of ten, but then it doesn'r contribute to the team anymore later in the match. With Rapid Spin and Defog being easy to get off Surskit ends up being almost a waste. Now I am not saying it is a waste all of the time, which is why C+ rank suits it well. It has a good niche, but it not enough of a threat and consistent enough (since Webs get removed) to be B- in my opinion.

*Shellder: Nahhh. It doesn't have anything that Omanyte doesn't (Omanyte has Earth Power to beat Chinchou), besides maybe a lack of Rock-type. Still not better than Omanyte though, so B rank for sure.

Mincinno: I have been using it for the Research Week, and it is not good. Lol, there is literally no reason to use it over Aipom, unless I am missing something. o.O Even then, it still sucks. It hits semi-hard, but has absolutely no Defense and supports the team in no way what-so-ever.

Also, if you could provide reasons with why you suggest all those changes that would be great, thanks.

 

[apt-get]

Shellder: Nahhh. It doesn't have anything that Omanyte doesn't (Omanyte has Earth Power to beat Chinchou), besides maybe a lack of Rock-type. Still not better than Omanyte though, so B rank for sure.

Shellder is actually excellent. What it has over Omanyte is an access to icicle spear, which allows it to break through focus sashes (and Abra), as well as access to priority (so fletchling can't revenge you at 20% and you can play pawn mindgames). It also has an easier time setting up thanks to its monowater typing, and icicle spear > ice beam vs ferroseed
Shellder easily deserves A-

 

[Aaron's Aron]

Shellder is actually excellent. What it has over Omanyte is an access to icicle spear, which allows it to break through focus sashes (and Abra), as well as access to priority (so fletchling can't revenge you at 20% and you can play pawn mindgames). It also has an easier time setting up thanks to its monowater typing, and icicle spear > ice beam vs ferroseed
Shellder easily deserves A-

Oooo, I forgot about Icicle Spear. Yeah, for sure B+ then since it can breaks Sashes. I dunno about A- though, but definitely B- rank then for sure. My bad.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

Scraggy B+ -> B Yes
I agree with this nomination. Scraggy is great for sweeping the low ladder, but find competition in it's roles from other, better Fighting types. This makes using Scraggy a question of opportunity cost: do you use the inferior Fighting type? Do you need Scraggy's particular niches? Overall, still a threat, but a normal B threat indeed.

I really hate this argument, for any pokemon, especially when it's untrue.

"Scraggy is great for sweeping the low ladder..."

i barely even take the ladder into account when ranking a mon but this is possibly the worst way to implement it. We've established by this point that: THE LOWER LADDER IS TRASH AND LITERALLY PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING CAN SWEEP THROUGH TYPICAL LOW-LADDER TEAMS.

Now for the actual nomination. I already disagreed with scraggy being moved down to B+ but it was already down before i could open my mouth so i chose to hold my tongue and accept it. B is way too low for scraggy. Tell me which other fighting types get access to dragon dance and fantastic, powerful coverage to boot. Tell me which other fighting-type has a pseudo-immunity to status in the form of shed skin. What other sweeper runs a choice scarf set, that when employed late-game, can sweep through teams due to moxie boosts? And most importantly, what fighter can do both? None. I really don't see how scraggy is inferior to any other fighting type in it's roles when none others can perform it. Scraggy has good bulk, great utility through the form of knock off, and many other things which warrant it B+, if not A-.

Feel free to object.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

I agree with GlassGlaceon. It is strong and bulky, and if it sets up some Dragon Dances then you are in serious trouble. When you look at the other B rank Pokemon, none of the can do their job as easily or pose as much of a threat as Scraggy does.