Competitive League Circuit 15 - HeliosAflame vs Prismaticism

Prismaticism actually since our ref is on holiday anyway I am going to call it. Not worth stressing for sub ref, I need to get value this round and your orders are comfortably good enough to deny this.

GGWP! (and noo, my undefeated year)

Thoughts on the general flow of the game:
  1. Well I thought heatran would counter shuckle and it absoltely does not. In future I think to counter shuckle you want high defences, stat blind attacks like trapping, statuses or seismic toss, answers to stat stages and answers to heavy duty boots. so basically the counter to shuckle is shuckle I think maybe magic guard people with oblivious or a way to steal shuckles defences might be very hard for shuckle to interact with.
  2. I like that I managed to get rocks advantage, I need to stop ignoring encore now that it has buffs. There is a general point here that when it is otherwise Identical I should type moves I am happy to type in all situations instead of more situational answers to things.
  3. I felt pretty comfortable when you swapped in exeggutor, I thought it would be spinda. It takes no damage from eq but in general it let me trade, and I was pretty much just prepping to have butterfree slam it with dyna
  4. I was sort of expecting shuckle into butterfree, but unsure if that or blacphalon was better. I think as of your order on round 6 I "should" have won, but ofc as I aptly demonstrated, just because you put yourself in a winning position does not mean you will win. Fwiw my line should have been something like sleep powder+stun spore in combo ~ shadow ball x 2. Butterfree survies on 5 life or so, but puts blacephalon in 1 shot range to a faster choice band groudon. That puts us both on effective 1 pokemon but I have second order choice band, you are hit by stealth rocks, and I still have butterfree if I need to leave play and drop status, or skip a first order round.
  5. Order bide into ghosts is probably something I should have learnt not to do by now. Nature of bbp I suppose, but this isn't even "why is the game unintuitive or hard to read", pure user error.

Send In:
I just got a dynamax butterfree so I want to send that.
I want to send a tech spender because butterfree is close to tech neutral so in goes groudon.
Groudon gets a lot at 3 and butterfree needs 4 to actually dynamax.

5 levels left, I think I want to split that into 2 mon because having 4 options is significantly more flexible than having 3.


1/3 chance I fight prismat. I need something that can actually kill a shuckle. Heatran? I don't think either Prismat or Keriel can really punish 2x ground weak.
Heatran gets dig and other nice stuff at 3.

for 2 points meowscarada seems like a good round out. Fast revenge killer, gets most things by lvl 2 (misses knock and worry seed mostly)

sending lvl 0 pokemon is free, so dragonite comes along for moral support and colossoil comes along because rebound is actually a relevant thing they can threaten to do at level 0
Opponent known:
Hmm. Actually seeing teams in practice I really didn't bring good main answers to rocks, especially when butterfree is so weak to them. Maybe the colossoil will actually come out instead of just being a meme?

I guess actually butterfree can also defog them, though they have very low defences and double rock weak so it could be expensive to do so.
the pokemon that scares me most here is the shuckle. free tech on top of rediculous defences and lvl 4 shell smash contrary is terifying.

I am running butterfree for sure, I didn't get g-max befuddle to not try them out, but I need to be careful on mu's. Blacepholon and shuckle are both tricky types for butterfree

Round 1
shuckle + pomeg send out.
by my understanding, shuckle is going to go to 70 life after this round, so I should not attack into the 35 hp that is going away for free.

I want to send heatran here, that was the whole purpose of bringing them. That soft locks my team as heatran/butterfree/groudon unless I want to not test the dynamax butterfree, or try to spend 3 technique on comboes.

things shuckle can do that I care about
stealth rock/sticky web, shell smash, power split, meteor beam, knock off, encore?, covet.
why does this pokemon need free tech QQ

I might just take focus sash, it would be awful if something happened like they steal my shell bell after it is charged, and it lets me get shell bell later on heatran.

it is definitely tempting to focus sash and hard taunt them, but maybe we can do better. it is definitely plausible that my own stealth rock and toxic are more impactful than many things shuckle can do.
I think I probably filter out the shell smash and hazards, and then allow things like encore and power split to resolve.

small notes. I have an "if protect then aim" in there because after stealth rock has resolved my best options were pretty bad (aim/double team) and aim discourages him letting stealth rock resolve and then immediately bringing in spinda to rapid spin it. Also it makes magma storm auto hit, which might be relevant since it is fixed damage vs shuckle

Round 2
I got a bit wrecked by eq here. I guess that is my fault for not using heavy slam as my decoy destroyer. It is a good general point that it is much safer to use a move that is good against your current target when possible vs decoy.

Anyway this whole situation sucks but I can't play against shell smash so I have to either taunt or roar. Roar seems better since it somewhere neutralizes the infestation as well and it plays with my rocks.

I think if I was prismat I would send spinda in here with boots and just rapid spin the rocks away.

Round 3
Well I am glad it isn't spinda, but the eq does about 0 damage into the double resist.

With safeguard in play Heatran doesn't have much fun it can do here. I think I just trade damage and say this is mostly fine?
The big decision is if I want to try and stall things out or not. Do I want second order when playing into executor with my next pokemon?

I think I would rather stall and try to get rid of the safeguard since the answer I want to use into exeggutor is butterfree.

So time to try "if ground attack then protect" style subs.

Round 4
Ok I expect this to play out dragon pulse my opponent into exeggcutor, heatran faints, I play butterfree and execute exeggcutor with g moves.

I feel like at that point I should be really ahead, but I still don't have an answer to shuckle. If prismat sends in shuckle with heavy duty boots it is very hard for me to actually damage the damn thing.

Lesson for the future. Heatran was not the answer.
Maybe someone with powder snow is? Would need them to not be weak to rock though.
I was assuming my last pokemon is groudon, but is there any chance it is meowscarada? Maybe max geyser or similar can break through.
I think that might have worked, but all my moves that can super a shuckle have ended up on spA somehow. Oh, also I can't dyana with a lvl 2 meow


I think in practice groudon ends up good into the rest of what I fight, and butterfree is bad vs it. So the question should end up being, can a second order butterfree gain sufficient value for groudon to clean up.
I do have access to bide and confusion so it isn't impossible.

Round 5
ok so I want to screen out protect + lightscreen here by threatening to buff up in response, and vs anything else I just 1 shot with g-max befuddle. tinted lens sure is an ability, I'm a baby braviary.

Round 6
ok the goal is to survive and get blacephalon below 36 life and para so that groudon can execute with choice band eq.

This is probably where I use my combo since time is running out.

I think I am taking 40 damage a hit, so unless I get crit and burned I should survive.

I can also freely spend en since my hp is going to 15 or so anyway.

Wait a minute, I should consider just spamming bide instead.

Ok I think I win or lose the match here depending on if I did calcs right. Surely I don't actually get 2 shot from full life with a defensive item right?
if I get the bide kill here then it is a half life shuckle vs butterfree remainder and groudon. While I am not thrilled with my shuckle answers I don't actually think it can beat groudon from full while on no en.

Round 7
Well, that is one way to do the calcs wrong.

So the game is pretty doomed here and I roped quite a while on my orders out of lethargy more than difficulty. the actual writing was pretty fast and a bit phoned in.

So to be clear why I think it is doomed because I think that is interesting.
  1. I got smashed on my butterfee last round, groudon needs to make it out on at least half life to go from here, since butterfee also has a bad mu into shuckle.
  2. I was blown out as my second order not my first order. This means prismat gets to second order here which means it is very hard for him to get blown out (despite me managing to). I need a blow out here to come back, and even a really good mechanical first order is unlikely to get the swing I require.
  3. I am first ordering into a choice specs. Messing up my order and giving "free entry" into a choice specs was really bad.
  4. This is a glass cannon mirror where I am out sped and first ordering, I never really want to be in that situation.
  5. He has not used any tech so has full access to comboes.
I guess to offer some contrast my good order on butterfree was sleep powder + stun spore ~ shadow ball ~ shadow ball.

My butterfree almost dies, but suddenly blacephalon is slower than groudon AND he is low enough to be in 1 shot range to choice band.

Suddenly the whole situation is reversed, where I get the free choice item entry into the battlefield where I skip first order either by 1 shotting my opponent or by forcing the swap.

Then I get choice band second order groudon into shuckle, which honestly is less free than it should be, but I do believe I should take it from there.
 
GG

Rock disadvantage pressured me to play for fast KOs to minimize rounds and number of switch/roar opportunities
Heatran was the biggest issue for me, half my team gets Toxic stalled by it and I wanted to conserve Shuckle resources as an endgame threat
If Spinda had Lucky Egg and level 2 for Superpower+Contrary it would have been a massive threat
There might have been a better plan round 5/6 involving some combination of Exeggutor Light Screen+Protect, Blacephalon with Boots, or Shuckle with Boots, but Butterfree is probably always going to be able to stall on second order to Dynamax again and spam Roar and survive to reset Groudon's item and Power Split for the Shuckle matchup

1729267861178.png



At least one of my starters retains its ability to do well in any matchup, Shuckle+2 of Delcatty/Blacephalon/Exeggcutor
Shuckle lead with Pomeg Berry setting up rocks and being generally impossible to remove, can also trap Groudon for Exeggcutor to exploit
All my level 2s are useless against everything except Butterfree glad one of my level 1s is useful, surprised its not the Spinda especially since Helios has been so vocal about it; maybe Helios will focus on it too much, or I might just be severely underestimating it
Expecting if a level 0 is sent out it will be Colossoil for Rebound, has similar matchups to Dragonite

Pomeg Berry might be overkill for Shuckle lead, Lum Berry would be nice but doesn't work, Tamato Berry looks amazing
If Power Split - Protect what my ideal round 2 is Shell Smash - Meteor Beam - Meteor Beam
Need to avoid wasting time and getting Roared, Attract and Toxic are annoying but will waste time if subbed for? also used Protect previous round, need to sub for Rock Blast
Maybe change R1 to Substitute - Power Split
Meteor Beam x3; start of step if toxic and not toxic any other step protect, start of step if attract and not attract any other step protect, start of step if rock blast (oh that hits for 6-21) earth power for 20 dmg, once start of step on step 1 if able shell smash if it is step 1
If im getting Roared anyway can get rid of Shell Smash sub and set up my own stealth rocks and maybe partial trap, start of step, if heatran is to use roar on any step but no more than thrice, use infestation if it is step 1, use stealth rock if it is step 2, step 3 ?
Should be able to fit sub 2 and 4 together, Meteor Beam - Meteor Beam - Meteor Beam, default timing if Shuckle is not infatuated and Shuckle is not taunted use Shell Smash if it is step 1 (later note: I am dumb and this doesn't work)
Can figure out later if I want to switch in Spinda or Delcatty if Shuckle gets Roared
Rock Blast makes Encore a lot stronger than I thought, R1 Encore - Protect R2 need different orders with the goal of getting partial trapping and shell smash up but getting Toxiced, my replacements after getting Roared are significantly worse if Power Split isn't used
Realized that if Encore R1 the if Toxic and not Toxic on any other step sub doesn't work, not sure if there is an alternative way to get the result I want
If I Shell Smash Heatran will switch to Groudon and force Shuckle out, if I don't Heatran trades evenly with Shuckle
R1 Sub-Power Split, R2 Meteor Beam x3, default timing if Shuckle is not infatuated and Shuckle is not taunted use Shell Smash if it is step 1, if rock blast infestation+bind the first time earth power each other time, start of round if roar ignore sub 1 and begin using trap/stealth rock/x, if protect x
Oh Safeguard - Encore is just good why was I thinking about Substitute

Round 2
Things to play around this round: Attract, Roar, Rock Blast, Protect, Substitute, Taunt Things I want this round: Shell Smash, Infestation, maybe Power Split
Can I write a sub with timing that isn't start of round that checks for Roar step 1 and 2, my understanding is a sub that checks intent before step 3 will look at main orders and only on step 3 will Encore replace the main order
Infestation - Meteor Beam - Meteor Beam, start of round if roar on step 1 or 2 ignore sub #2, start of turn on step 1 if shuckle is not infatuated and shuckle is not taunted use shell smash and use infestation on step 3, start of step on step 2 if heatran is to use Protect use Stealth Rock, start of step on step 2 if heatran is to use Rock Blast use Stealth Rock
If Roar is it possible to fit Power Split into these subs so that my replacement can fight a neutered Heatran for 2 rounds, Taunt and Substitute present too big of a problem I think
Calculated that Exegg has a 3 step KO with Life Orb if Roar is used, so don't need Power Split
Start of turn on step 2 if able use Stealth Rock; can't figure out a way to incorporate this with everything else I want at best I need to not main order meteor beam and sacrifice a lot of damage
What about when Shuckle is Taunted replace Stealth Rock with Meteor Beam if it is step 1 and replace Stealth Rock with Wrap if it is step 2
If Roar my best round is Stealth Rock, partial trap, whatever; Taunt shouldn't be able to stop me from getting Stealth Rock up; if I don't get Roared and get Shell Smash off how important is getting Meteor Beam off, Meteor Beam hits for 24 vs Infestation 16 but he can prevent Meteor Beam next round
I can't find an order set that sets up rocks and partial traps and threatens shell smash, there might be some ridiculous Start of round if heatran is to use Roar begin using X, start of round if heatran is to use Taunt modify orders
Substitute and Protect both break my plan if I try to partial trap step 1, I don't think I can get value out of Shell Smash actually, he can always substitute - protect to secure the switch out to groudon
Ok if all I want is Stealth Rock and partial trapping I can do that easily surely
Things to play around this round: Rock Blast, Protect, Substitute, Taunt Things I want this round: Infestation, Stealth Rock, maybe Power Split
Substitute - Taunt and Substitute - Protect both cause problems for everything I've come up with so far
Heatran has Strength so getting everything I want is impossible I will settle for trapping it..... and Dig.... I was way too ambitious with first order
Accepted that Shell Smash forcing Roar is a positive trade for me as long as it generates value this round with subs against Protect Dig and Substitute
Going to be at Rocks disadvantage but up a KO, I need to get another defog/rapid spin mon to replace Corviknight
Helios ordering Magma Storm confirms that he missed Rock Blast as an option

Round 3
2 options this round which both depend on what I can force the next round to look like from first order
I'm always taking Stealth Rock 12, Dragon Pulse 18, Earthquake 8, Life Orb 6 = 44 dmg, plus either Dragon Pulse 18 or Dragon Pulse 9 x2 (or 2 other moves after Light Screen)
Round 4 orders will look like - Earthquake x3, start of turn if heatran has protection use synthesis, start of step if heatran is to use rock blast in combination use protect, if heatran is koed use synthesis
Does 1 step of Light Screen do anything, no; can I Light Screen and KO next round and get a recovery off, Heatran will have 33 EN left next round and can only stall with 2 of Rest, Protect, Substitute, Iron Defense,, this seems risky

Round 4/5
Nothing unexpected here, bringing out Shuckle to replace Exeggutor so no point going for Protect+Light Screen

Round 6
Sending out Shuckle with Leftovers, Butterfree only has Thief so can't answer it which forces Groudon to come out with Sticky Barb
Main order Meteor Beam, sub for Bide, Sleep Powder, Supersonic (in combination? or would Helios risk it), Toxic
Meteor Beam x3, default timing if Butterfree has Biding condition and lacks a decoy use Substitute, once default timing if shuckle is asleep use sleep talk, start of step if Butterfree is to use Toxic and is not to use Toxic on any other step use Protect, start of step if Butterfree is to use Supersonic in combination and Butterfree is not to use Supersonic in combination in any prior step use Protect
Can't afford to waste EN protecting against raw Supersonic, I don't like if he uses Toxic, takes 52 from two Meteor Beams while likely hitting a Supersonic then staying in to Gmax
Blacephalon with Heavy-Duty Boots deals 26 with Flamethrower vs Shadow Ball for 18+leftovers+supersonic, also don't like this very much
How bad is Sleep Talk - Rest against Gmax Butterfree next round, end up taking almost no damage EN is the only problem but if Butterfree is removed then Groudon should be Toxic stallable surely
As long as Shuckle has enough HP and EN to Power Split Groudon it should be manageable
Need to come up with a better answer to Bide, maybe Protect+Light Screen - Uproar on Round 5 to make Butterfree spend 36 EN instead of 12 and deal 5 dmg is worthwhile?
Then can send out Blacephalon which will be outsped but will trade Flamethrower for 21 vs Hurricane for 13
What about Heavy-Duty Boots Shuckle to ignore rocks and toxic or Choice Specs Blacephalon Flamethrower 35 dmg
Specs Blacephalon things to play around: not Bide because Ghost type, Protect, Sleep Powder, Substitute
Heat Wave - Heat Wave - Heat Wave, start of turn if Butterfree has protection use sleep talk the first time and rest the second time, start of turn if blacephalon is asleep and blacephalon lacks sleep talk conditon use sleep talk

Round 7
Finally got a misplay out of Helios, sadly I also made the mistake of ordering Heat Wave step 1 instead of Flamethrower so the battle isn't decided yet
Butterfree has enough HP and EN to switch in and Dynamax to cause issues
If I stay in with Blacephalon my threats are: Solar Beam, Will-O-Wisp (combo), Pain Split, Confuse Ray
When Shuckle comes in against Groudon it can only kill through Toxic stall so keeping Blacephalon in to set that up for Shuckle is valuable and knocking off the Sticky Barb is probably necessary
If I lose from here it is because of backpack issues, primarily not sending Lucky Egg for Spinda and Delcatty and not sending Tamato Berry for Shuckle lead, Pomeg Berry reserved for second Shuckle send out would be enormous here
Things I want that aren't subbed against: Burn, Knock Off, Toxic, Solar Beam, Pain Split?
Solar Beam deals 33 vs Earthquake 20 after Burn
I guess that makes things easy since he didn't sub for Solar Beam with an open 4th sub
Ember+Will-O-Wisp - Solar Beam - Solar Beam, 4+3+17-7=17 DMG + (12+17-7)*1.5=33 DMGx2 + 12 Burn DMG = 95 DMG
Double crit KOs me, Torment causes a Struggle for 10 Recoil and removes all risk
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top