I haven't read this entire thread yet, but it is an obvious truism that education and treatment are far more efficacious and efficient methods of tackling whatever problems drugs cause society than illegality. Of course, the War on Drugs is basically government-backed class and racial warfare, as poverty, ethnicity, and drug use are very closely correlated in the US. Besides, it serves as an excuse for promoting paramilitary terrorism in Latin America ("Plan Colombia") and a nice mechanism for fear-mongering social control. It's a farce, and everyone realizes it.
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Legalize it. ALL of it.
- Thread starter DM
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You should be allowed to do what you want with your body, but I have a feeling that certain laws exist to keep the public productive workers--Suicide is also illegal.
This should be legal in your home or (drug) bar. If you are high in public, you are putting the safety of others at risk (like speeding).
So legalizing responsible drug use (at home) should make the streets safer.
This should be legal in your home or (drug) bar. If you are high in public, you are putting the safety of others at risk (like speeding).
So legalizing responsible drug use (at home) should make the streets safer.
Direct and indirect harm caused by the same issue. It doesn't really matter if the harm is "indirect" - it's still a pain in the ass for anyone that has to deal with it, and the bottom line is this:
Our hospitals should not have to deal with the physical and mental issues arising from substance abuse.
Our police should not have to deal with the crime caused by substance abuse.
Luduan: That assumes people have intelligence and basic common sense. It's sadly lacking in the general populace.
Drugs DO cloud judgment, even if you are not on them. The effects of addiction do not only affect their feelings towards drugs, they warp all your emotions. If you didnt know drugs work by affecting the sensors in your body that normally make you feel happy when certain hormones are released into your blood stream. Through the use of drugs you create artificial happiness, which grows into a dependacy that changes who you are by affecting these receptors. This chemical dependance, if not satisfied, makes the user a very different person on the chemical level, often making them feel and do things that they would not do in their right minds.
The prevention of suicide is not infringing on their free will, because they are not free. Their bodies are slaves to the chemicals that make them "happy".
Are you joking? Here are a few stats
About two fifths of students (41%) have consumed alcohol (more than just a few sips) by 8th grade
Three out of every four students (75%) have consumed alcohol (more than just a few sips) by the end of high school.
Half (50%) of American young people have tried cigarettes by 12th grade.
Two fifths of 8th graders (41%) and almost three fourths of all 10th graders (73%) consider marijuana easily accessible; compare these figures with the percentage of 12th graders – 86%.
Nationwide, 25.4% of students had been offered, sold, or given an illegal drug by someone on school property during the 12 months preceding the survey.
Marijuana is reported by 23% of teens to be easier to buy than cigarettes or beer.
Marijuana is the most commonly used illicit drug in the nation. (14.6 million past month users).
I think Marijuana should be legalized, just not every other drug (cocaine, meth, etc..). You cannot be PHYSICALLY addicted to Marijuana, just mentally. TBH, me and my friends DO smoke every week, just because our town does not have anything better to do(no rec. centers, we've seen every good movie out). Just give me something better to do, and I'm sure I will probably avoid Marijuana.
I have looked about people ODing on Marijuana. According to this: http://druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/mj_overdose.htm it would be IMPOSSIBLE (or close to) to die from Marijuana. The only way to die from smoking Marijuana, is if it is laced with another drug (which is usually identifiable, and I probably won't smoke laced).
The only reason Marijuana is illegal, is because the government can't make a profit. Marijuana busting is also a reason America's economy sucks. California alone spent BILLIONS of dollars buting houses. http://www.aedcweb.com/aedcdig/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=372&Itemid=1
That article states that Alaska has a stable economy compared to let's say California. Also take a quick look at this: http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=4522 Now look at this article (especially the title) on California http://peaceandfreedom.org/blog/?p=603 (Legalizing marijuana could help California get out of debt)
California in debt? Alaska not (or at least not as bad)? California harsh, Alaska not? It's more obvious than a team that's MixApe weak, that Marijuana should be legalized, maybe make it as alcohol laws.
PS~ Yes I'm an occasional Marijuana user. No I don't drink a lot (only at parties, which I probably go to like once a month, and even then I only drink 6 or 7 beers NO HARD LIQUOR). No I don't smoke cigarettes, I've only done about 5 my whole life).
I have looked about people ODing on Marijuana. According to this: http://druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/mj_overdose.htm it would be IMPOSSIBLE (or close to) to die from Marijuana. The only way to die from smoking Marijuana, is if it is laced with another drug (which is usually identifiable, and I probably won't smoke laced).
The only reason Marijuana is illegal, is because the government can't make a profit. Marijuana busting is also a reason America's economy sucks. California alone spent BILLIONS of dollars buting houses. http://www.aedcweb.com/aedcdig/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=372&Itemid=1
That article states that Alaska has a stable economy compared to let's say California. Also take a quick look at this: http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=4522 Now look at this article (especially the title) on California http://peaceandfreedom.org/blog/?p=603 (Legalizing marijuana could help California get out of debt)
California in debt? Alaska not (or at least not as bad)? California harsh, Alaska not? It's more obvious than a team that's MixApe weak, that Marijuana should be legalized, maybe make it as alcohol laws.
PS~ Yes I'm an occasional Marijuana user. No I don't drink a lot (only at parties, which I probably go to like once a month, and even then I only drink 6 or 7 beers NO HARD LIQUOR). No I don't smoke cigarettes, I've only done about 5 my whole life).
I'm tired of all this right mind bullshit. Who are you to judge what a right mind is, as though there is an objective standard of a rightness of mind, or a standard of someone's "true self"? If you want to kill yourself, regardless of what the circumstances are that led you to that point, you should be able to do so. Period. I refuse to discuss this further, since all it really amounts to is an intuitive judgment. I can't prove that free will is a human necessity (no matter how strongly I feel about) and you can't prove that there is rightness of mind under which it is appropriate to commit suicide. We can both respectfully disagree, and stop there; I doubt any amount of discussion will advance our knowledge on this issue (for its a dead end). Let's return to the OP (since that can certainly be debated and reasoned) and abandon the sub-debate about the legitimacy of suicide (before it frustrates me further :P). This request extends to other posters, too. Of course, it's optional whether or not you choose to respect it, but I sure would like it!
Edit: And I doubt that apollo456 meant for his picture to be about religion, but instead naturalism (weed is natural and alcohol is man-made, thus weed is healthy and should be legalized). Of course, this fits perfectly under the naturalistic fallacy (what is natural is not necessarily good), but just pointing out that I doubt he literally meant God as in God, but God as a symbol of nature.
I don't intend to go far into what you don't want, but you can sure tell when someone has been drinking or not. You tell, me, what are they like? Different. A different attitude and character, and a different state of mind. That's all I'm going to touch on the subject.
IMO after thinking for a while, I now think that it would probably be best to keep things where they are legally. Banning them more or banning them less would only incourage them. If we wanted to stop people from getting under the influence of addictions, the battle would occur in our minds, not in the courthouse. In other words, it would be more successful convincing people not to do drugs than ban it or legalize it.
Yah, religion probably should not fit in this thread, but it is noticeable that god did not remove all temptations from the world.
I don't intend to go farther into something I don't what to go farther into, but the temptation to dispel this commonly held view is too tempting. To say that someone becomes different when drink is absurd; they do not morph when intoxicated, as all one's actions are their character. There is no such thing as being out of character, and the drunk person often merely reveals a normally hidden aspect of their character, to which people are unaccustomed to seeing (hence why they call them different, but in reality they are not different, just apparently different).
The only thing I have left on the subject is the fact that there is a simple standard of "right mind", it is the state in which your body is not under the influence of outside chemicals. Note that chemicals produced by your body. I understand that a person who is going through alot of shit in their lives feels like taking it. That is free will, and if they want to no one can stop them. It is when the artificial chemicals taken into the body affect your judgement where I draw the line. It is no longer your choice, nor are the things you are feeling your own, they are brought upon you by the chemicals you added to your body.
Free will is what makes humans special, but when we become slaves to chemicals we lose that. I am not going to pretend like I can judge who is and who is not in a right state of mind, but the legalizing of drugs would be like giving people permission to "choose" to throw their lives away to addiction.
Free will is what makes humans special, but when we become slaves to chemicals we lose that. I am not going to pretend like I can judge who is and who is not in a right state of mind, but the legalizing of drugs would be like giving people permission to "choose" to throw their lives away to addiction.
to expand on bossmans post, but what if you come across a person who is constantly wasted/baked/under the influence of some substance? then, wouldnt you say that when they are sober, they act differently, are in a different state of mind? extreme example (hopefully) but it shows that such an argument can be used by both parties of this debate.
edit:
fenix, most light drugs merely induce or inhibit the release of chemicals already in the body, such as dopamine and norepinephrine and serotonin. these chemicals are already present in the body, so by your definition, they are fine since they are not foreign chemicals being added to ones body.
i wasnt sure if you knew this, but i felt the need to bring this up.
double edit:
in fact, upon further research, i have found that cocaine suppresses the reuptake of dopamine, serotonin, and norepinephrine, causing these chemicals to remain in the body instead of being taken back in, causing one to feel the effects of the chemicals for much greater periods of time.
They do not reveal a hidden aspect of their character, that is another excuse to hide behind. Alcohol affects the body on the cellular level altering your state of mind through chemical reactions that take place in your chemical receptors. People under the influence are not under their natural chemical influence, but rather under an outside, alien influence. They become the alcohol they drink, I dont think I've ever seen someone's hidden philosophical side appear at some frat party. They all act the same, fucking idiots.
Yes they are in a different state of mind, their NATURAL state of mind. The chemicals in most of these drugs change their personality, and therefore their ability to make sane decisions, at the cellular level like Ive mentioned before.
Yes they are in a different state of mind, their NATURAL state of mind. The chemicals in most of these drugs change their personality, and therefore their ability to make sane decisions, at the cellular level like Ive mentioned before.
But how do you know that legality is the deterrent to drugs? The people who shy away from chemically addicting drugs do so because they fear chemical addiction (and rightfully so), not because they fear being caught by the police, like that would ever happen anyways (for a user, not so much a dealer). If anything, it has proven to be extremely ineffective, despite the costly war on drugs.
It isn't that legality is a deterrent on drugs... it's that by unbanning them, we would be suggesting to some that it is safe to use unaddicting drugs - that they come with no risk. Obviously, this is not true (you lose your ability to make choices as if you were not under the influence of the drug).
Also, there is a certain point (not that I know what it is) where something goes from being likeable to addicting. It's that addicting part we don't want happening. That's why things like Heroin and other such things are bad while things that you get from pharmacies, like Benedryl (not sure if I spelled that right) and Claritin are not. However, you will notice that they have started being more strict with those substances, meaning that they can become addictive in certain cases - and that's where the deciding point is.
Cigarettes are legal, I don't see anyone suggesting they're safe. If people want to use, and end up fucking themselves up, they have no one to blame but themselves. They made the decision to start using and continue using up until the point of addiction of their own free will. Even if these drugs are legal, I have no problem with anyone telling people how dangerous they are. They can make their own decisions from there.
They've started regulating these drugs because they contain ingredients used in the production of methamphetamine, not because they're "addictive.
Although this is true, that does not null the fact that you are messing with your body's natural chemical release and uptake. Although these drugs do not mess with the receptors in you brain, they do though affect how much, and under what conditions these chemicals would normally appear and disapear. You are still messing with the chemical basis of emotions in your body.
Yah, I had been making a post about this earlier, I was just justifying Fenix's reason. As I said, this battle will occur in people's minds.
Sure, that's fine, but isn't that used to create an addictive drug? I was just referenceing it to that certain drugs are not as addictive as others, and there woudl be a "dividing line" kind of like there is one between OU and BL. And that dividing line, is kind of subjective... so I don't know exactly what it is yet. But then again, so was the OU/BL line, until X-Act revolutionized it with his formula.
just popping in to point out that alcohol by way of fermentation occurs in nature just as easily as weed does. Fallen grapes anyone?
That being said, weed has been so hideously bred that it's not nearly the same as the stuff that was found in antiquity.
So comparing weed as a natural 'god' made alternative to a man made booze is absolute bullshit. In both cases it's something that occurs naturally that has been exploited by people in a similar 'mass production' type fashion.
That being said, weed has been so hideously bred that it's not nearly the same as the stuff that was found in antiquity.
So comparing weed as a natural 'god' made alternative to a man made booze is absolute bullshit. In both cases it's something that occurs naturally that has been exploited by people in a similar 'mass production' type fashion.
You might be correct on this, the lecture I heard on this topic was several years ago and I can't be sure it was heroin specifically that was being discussed or some other "hard" drug. I shouldn't be reporting half remembered facts, thanks for pointing this out, my intent was not to lie, though. I am not a chemist or drug expert, do you know if a non lethal dose can still have permanent mental side effects?
Having said that I would be curious about the difference between necessary dosages involved to kill a person with med grade diamorphine, vs. a heavy dose intended for recreational use. Many legal substances can be fatal in high enough dosages, even common food additives and supplements.
Other than addiction the only permanent side effect you'll get from a diamorphine overdose is possible brain damage (seeing as diamorphine is a CNS/respiratory depressant it is theoretically possible for an overdose to stop breathing for an extended period of time, cutting off the oxygen to the brain and causing brain damage via hypoxia).
This is, however, pretty much a theoretical risk and is incredibly unlikely to happen without medical intervention (to 'rescue' you at the end - most people would just die). The majority of heroin overdoses die through aspirating on their own vomit - a problem that could be easily solved were people educated to use an antiemetic (i.e. compazine) and either did it in specific places (the 'drug houses' we already discussed) or were compelled to have someone with them at the same time.
To be honest, I'm inclined to say - if they did die, so what? Educate people about the risks and ways of minimising them. If they choose to do it, they fuck up, and medical aid doesnt arrive on time/manage to save them, then why should it matter?
There is a drugs advisory panel here who advise the government; one of those people pointed out more people die here each year from horse riding than E, yet noone gives a shit about horses.
The thing about opiate dosage for recreational use is that it is possible to build up such a high tolerance users can regularly take several times a dosage that would kill the opiate naive.
Meh this thread caught my interest I been reading about the first 3 pages and really here is my opinion on the matter. FYI I have smoked weed and I have popped pills before. I would smoke as much as 4-5 blunts a day with my friends. I popped pills every once in a while at clubs and parties. But I feel in no way that I'm addicted to the drugs. Now I don't smoke that much anymore maybe every once in a while I would hit the blunt but it is pretty rare for me and I keep popping pills at clubs now. But I do this all on my own choice and my own decision. I have done coke about twice in my life 1 line and we have laced a blunt with it. Once again I have no desire to do it again as I can still make a decision for myself. Lately, I haven't smoked as much hell it would be pretty rare for you to see me smoking weed. I still pop pills at clubs but thats just a once in a while thing and I certainly haven't done coke anymore.
What I'm basically trying to say in this stupid long ass rant is people can make their own choices and decisions on the matter. I'm for the legalization of all drugs, if people want to make that choice to use it let them. If they want to do drugs let them. Let the people make their own decision in that matter. Let them do what they want with their lives just worry about your own.
What I'm basically trying to say in this stupid long ass rant is people can make their own choices and decisions on the matter. I'm for the legalization of all drugs, if people want to make that choice to use it let them. If they want to do drugs let them. Let the people make their own decision in that matter. Let them do what they want with their lives just worry about your own.
Incorrect, as the grapes are mixed (by human doing) with other ingredients to make the actual booze. As for weed, weed can be grown by a human being, but he does not have to add other ingredients. All he needs to do is water it and give it enough light.
I think Moomorpid was talking about the selective breeding of cannabis plants in order to cultivate strains with a much higher THC quantity.
I do not know to much about growing, since I have never attempted it or asked around. If I am correct though, selective breeding also means cross-breeding. This is done by putting a male and female plant next to each other. That is it.
