Metagame Let's Go OverUsed Discussion & Resources

[Eve]

Hi! As most of you probably know by now, we did indeed ban Mega Alakazam. I wanted to post some thoughts about the new metagame, starting with the six most used Pokemon. I will be referencing usage stats from the first three Rounds of the ongoing MZam Ban Tournament in this post.


Non-negotiable as ever, with both having near-100% usage. Melmetal feels maybe a little bit less vital and Mew maybe a bit more, but I'd still use them both on every single team, and Melmetal being less necessary defensively in some matchups just means it's freed up to mash buttons. I should note that setup Mew variants, especially Nasty Plot, have absolutely become more common and successful, and you will need a plan for handling it.


Zapdos stocks have gone up a substantial amount, taking it from being the #3 Pokemon (2/3 of teams) to being the #3 Pokemon (3/4 of teams). Other Ground-types than ADug are a lot more viable without having to fear Mega Alakazam OHKOing them, and they're generally easier for Zapdos to play around thanks to it outspeeding them. The Water Megas becoming more prominent helps too, and helps secure its defensive role over Starmie, who was encroaching on it slightly in the prior metagame. Zapdos can also choose to anchor your team against Zapdos and Eggy with Drill Peck if you want it to. It's generally far harder to justify not using Zapdos now imo, and that's reflected in the jump in usage it's enjoyed.


Scrap what I just said about other Ground-types! Apparently this thing is now even more spammed than its previous 40%ish average usage, with an unweighted usage of 58.09% prior to Round 4, and a usage of above 65% in specifically Round 3. This confuses me a lot- it's a very good Pokemon and still deserves to be the most used Ground by a decent margin, but I don't really see how this meta state favours it so much more than the previous one where it was even more obviously the best Ground. I'm interested to see how this holds up, and whether it's just a comfort thing.


I am not surprised to see this being the most used Mega by a large margin. Why? It is fast AND strong. Need I say more


It seems that Psychic is now near-mandatory on Starmie thanks to Venusaur's increased prominence, and the same is true for Thunderbolt due to Mega Gyarados. This means that Starmie basically only has one set right now- Water STAB, Psychic, Thunderbolt, and Recover- but fortunately that set is absolutely fantastic, ripping through a lot of teams with minimal effort. Starmie feels a bit less useful defensively right now but just as useful as ever offensively, and absolutely deserving of its Top 6 usage. Maybe you could drop Recover for Ice Beam or Thunder Wave to become even scarier.

Other thingies outside the top 6 usage:


The other megas of serious consideration, ordered by usage. I think that Blastoise is the #2 Mega by a slight margin, and that ZardX is easily the worst of this bunch. The three between are rather hard for me to rank and I'd probably put them in the same rank on a VR. I should note that there is quite a disparity in winrates among this bunch; 64.29%, 37.50%, 50.00%, 70.59%, and 55.56% respectively. Poor Venu, I still believe in it...


The slow Grounds that were previously put out of a job are now kinda back! I think Rhydon is the best of these, despite Nidoqueen having more usage- its solid MAero matchup and general deadliness really shouldn't be understated, and it's pretty splashable as a Zapdos answer that basically guarantees progress. Nidoking is very underrated and should be used more, its Speed tier above the bulky Megas and power and coverage are so good. Nidoqueen is Nidoqueen, it's ok.


Invest in these two immediately. Jolteon has won 8/10 matches, while Vaporeon has won 7/8. Big threats.


Alolan Muk's usage has taken a pretty substantial dip, as has its winrate- it now sits in a similar ballpark to Snorlax, who it used to convincingly outperform in most regards, on both metrics. I think this is somewhat of an anomaly and both of these Pokemon will recover their winrates, especially with their solid setup Mew and Starmie matchups, but I wouldn't be shocked if their usage stayed substantially lower without Mega Alakazam in the picture.

Regular, not Mega!

A small research paper

Regular Aerodactyl continues to stand apart from every other Pokemon with a legal Mega Evolution- in fact, it's the only one that has been used alongside other Mega Pokemon at all so far. Its main claim to fame is as a Stealth Rock lead. What does it do to stand out? Quite a lot, actually.

Pros

• Set up Stealth Rock safely. No Taunt Mew troubles, no nothing- if you don't have a Mega Aerodactyl of your own, you aren't preventing it. It's the safest Rocker bar Mew, although it may get KOed for its troubles.
• Lets you run other Mew sets. Like any non-Mew rocker, the main selling point is that you get to run a scarier Mew set than the standard Rocker, whether that's one with Will-O-Wisp or a setup variant.
• Sometimes it's a revenge killer. 130 Speed and serviceable Attack lets it do things in the midgame if it stays alive.
• Taunt other Stealth Rock users. Fairly self-explanatory, you outspeed and stop them. You can also Taunt stuff that wants to set up on you, and Taunting Mew to deny recovery can help offensive teammates a lot.
• It can be a backup Mega Evolution. Let's say your Mega doesn't enjoy the Beedrill matchup. Having the option to use Mega Aerodactyl can help with that sometimes!

Cons

• Very frail. Most Pokemon with decently strong super-effective moves can OHKO Aerodactyl, and Mew can 2HKO with Psychic. As such, you will typically be playing a Pokemon down in exchange for Stealth Rock (and, hopefully, denying the opposing Rocker). This, in combination with its own weakness to Stealth Rock, means that if it doesn't get Stealth Rock up at lead, it may struggle to find an opportunity.
• Mind games. This results from Aerodactyl's frailty. Do you Taunt the Mew as it predicts that and clicks Psychic twice? Do you just Stealth Rock expecting this? Generally the former is a better plan, but what about versus something like Rhydon? In that case, it may be better to Stealth Rock first to guarantee it actually happens. There's a strong disconnect between your best case play and your safest play a lot of the time with Aerodactyl.

Here's an overview of all 7 matches so far featuring Regular Aerodactyl, in order to demonstrate what it does in practice:

• R1 ImJustSamu vs. LpZ IV sets up Stealth Rock, does 55% to Mega Blastoise before going down thanks to a Rock Slide flinch. This set frees up Mew to run Psychic Taunt Wisp Roost, which could have carried LpZ to victory bar some unfortunate WoW misses. Loses
• R1 diegoyuhhi vs. Flying Beagle temporarily denies Mew from setting Stealth Rock, sets its own, does 40% to Rhydon before going down. This allows Flying Beagle to run CM Mew which utterly dominates the lategame, and the Rocks help play around Zapdos in the midgame. Wins
• R2 Dribbowl vs. LpZ IV denies Mew from setting Stealth Rock for a long time, sets its own, and damages a few things while exerting pressure from its Speed tier. The Stealth Rock prove pivotal in helping handle MAero, Zapdos, and Cloyster. Wins
• R2 igiveuponaname vs. lily sets up Stealth Rock and immediately faints. Frees up Mew to run a CM set that is unfortunately helpless versus Mega Gyarados, as is the rest of Lily's unorthodox team. Loses
• R2 SoggyBagel64 vs. Flying Beagle sets up Stealth Rock and immediately faints. Frees up Mew to run Fire Blast which helps break down Melmetal for Flying Beagle's Mega Venusaur. Wins
• R3 gastalies vs. igiveuponaname sets up Stealth Rock, takes Mew down to 59% and almost KOes Alolan Dugtrio before fainting. Provides strong early momentum that igiveuponaname capitalises on fantastically. Wins
• R3 A Welcome Guest vs. Mimikyu Stardust isn't sent out until the mid-lategame, meaning Mimikyu Stardust never gets Stealth Rock up. This is not ideal versus MAero and results in a loss. Loses

7 uses gives Aerodactyl a usage of 5.15% prior to Round 4, on par with Gengar, and a winrate of 57.14%. It is worth noting that nobody has chosen to Mega Evolve their Aerodactyl instead of their main Mega candidate thus far.

That's all for now- I plan to gather strong performers and consistently good players together in the near future in order to update our resources for the new metagame, especially our Viability Rankings and Sample Teams. Stay tuned, and feel free to post your thoughts on the new meta :)

 

[Samu77]

This place rarely get's attention so I'm posting something here, about my favorite Pokemon in the tier: Vaporeon.

This thing may be the most unspectacular looking Pokemon of all time but this thing to me is the savoir of every build I make. It lost Baton Pass, it lost Hidden Power, it even lost your boy Wish, so why is this thing so good to me? In short, it's always doing something valuable.

First let's look at these stats:
HP: 130
Attack: 65
Defense: 60
Special Attack: 110
Special Defense: 95
Speed: 65

In a meta with only the Kanto Dex and it's Extensions, these are some pretty dang good stats. The distribution is fairly solid too, high HP distributed in that golden 525 BST means that you get better stats all around since the numbers don't have to be so crunched between. In fact only 12 Pokemon (discounting Mega's) are actually beating that number, a fair amount of them being weak to Rocks and not having the tools to function well independently. In a meta with no abilities, items or especially EV's, Stats are a really big deal. While of course low base stat mons do exist in LGPE OU (Dugtrio certainly isn't breaking any records), it's a pretty big deal here. For reference, these stats let it take a lot of hits, most notably

Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Vaporeon: 128-152 (62.4 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (100.00% chance to 2HKO after accuracy)

Zapdos can't OHKO this thing, even after SR, so getting rid of this thing quickly is out of the question. And if it's taking this it's taking a lot of other things as well.

Water is famously one of the best types that's ever done it throughout all of Pokemon, and in LGPE it's still one of the best. Water Stab is notoriously hard to switch into in this tier, and Vaporeon clicking Surf can actually be fairly annoying to deal with due to the high special attack it has. The only mon that can reliably take the move that doesn't just get smacked by Ice Beam (although not all of them choose to run that) is Venusaur, and the non-Mega variant doesn't even come close to OHKOing it (not that Vaporeon is staying in against Venu regardless). That Water-Typing also makes it one of the best resists to one of the scariest moves in the game: Double Iron Bash. While Vaporeon still won't win the the MU if it switches into DIB raw on Melmetal, it's going to get two Surf's off if it does, and a Melmetal for Vaporeon trade for the Vaporeon player is almost always worth it. Vaporeon also threatens out Rhydon, a mon that has been rising in popularity as of late and doesn't really even mind Earthquake that much nor can the Substitute from Rhydon threaten to OHKO it with Megahorn, unlike Starmie. While odds of it getting taken out by two Dugtrio EQs after Rocks is high, if coming in on Rock Slide Dugtrio always gives Vaporeon a free Surf. All of this is just ONE move too. Like Water, Ghost is an incredible offensive type and Shadow Ball does, maybe not amazing, but certainly not negilgable damage to everything it hits, most notably it eventually tells Mew to leave by virtue of it doing around half with the chance for Drops eventually getting the best of it as well as almost always KOing Starmie after Surf and Stealth Rocks. Yawn is the last trick and with how fast paced LGPE OU is, Sleep can be devastating. Couple that with the fact that one-shotting Vaporeon is impossible and if Vaporeon is dead set on it, something can be put to sleep by it if it just decides to click nothing but Yawn, while potentially rubbing in SR chip to the opponent if they try to dance around it too much.

Protect has sometimes been suggested over Ice Beam, so as to get the Yawn off without even being hit in retaliation but the OHKO on Exeggutor feels very nice to me as well as potentially catching a Zapdos switch (although that is rare). A freeze, while obviously unreliable, is often also a death sentence in this tier with no relevant Ice-Types or Lum Berries.

The main reason i love this mon is that is has, without fail, in every game I've used it, done something. Being an Aero check is already a decent niche and gives you insurance against the scariest Mega in the tier. Unlike Starmie and Kingler, it's not accuracy reliant on it's Water Stab, meaning every time you click a move with this mon it's going to hit. This might not sound like a big deal since people have been clicking Focus Blast for nearly 17 years now, but again with how fast-paced the tier is, missing the wrong move at the wrong time can be disastrous. This mon has always felt good to me and I think it's mad underrated.

 

[Samu77]

I can't believe more people aren't using these sets

Mew
Ability: No Ability
Level: 50
Bold Nature
IVs: 28 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Psychic
- Roost

A lot of people have been leading Mew lately and clicking Stealth Rocks Turn 1, myself included, because it's a good move. Getting up Rocks is important, but then most people are left in a situation where they find themselves saying "okay now what?" This is what. The ability for me to under speed your Mew no matter what you do is wickedly valuable in a tier where every switch is punished by permanent stealth rocks and I get to choose who to send in against you, and this is a tier where a lot of the answers when they are put in neutral situations have advantages. Go Zapdos on me doing this? Free Dugtrio/Rhydon switch. Go into Aero or Beedrill with a U-Turn, scouting my switch? I send in Melmetal, and now you are -1 turn against a mon that is doing significant damage with Iron Bash. Go Dugtrio? I send in Venusaur or Vaporeon and now you play my game where I can do whatever I want.

The more offensive a tier is, the better and early head-start is, and this is one of the most aggressive and offensive tiers out there. This Speed IV lets you do whatever you want, and what's crazy is that there's no drawback to this. Once Mew get's up rocks rarely is it absurdly valuable from that point onwards, and can be a free sac which is incredibly valuable in a tier as fast as this and where we play with Mega's that do absurd damage when they hit the field safely.

"But Samu, what about Taunt Mew? Isn't being slower bad vs that?" Well it's not really making much progress vs your team now is it? We both lead Mew T1, you click Taunt, blocks me, I get a free U-Turn off the next turn as you click Rocks and getting Mew back in isn't really all that hard. It's out speeding the majority of the metagame and again, it's not crazy valuable once those rocks are up. And if I have a Mega Beedrill, you've done nothing with Taunt because I just click U-Turn twice and you have to switch out and I'm getting rocks up against anyways with 25% done to my Beedrill while I still have one more move with my Mew.

Zapdos
Ability: No Ability
Level: 50
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Reflect
- Roost
- Drill Peck

Behold, the future of Zapdos. This set is ridiculous because you 1v1 Dugtrio's with it, ensure that you support your team, and get those ever-so-crucial Drill Pecks in. U-Turn sounds hard to miss, but it's not because either A: You click U-Turn on Dugtrio/Rhydon and while you get advantage, your Zapdos; the mon that checks Melmetal, does big hits on Water Types, and can be a wincon especially when Mega Venusaur isn't walling you because you lack Dpeck, is now at half health and is hard to get in outside of a hard read or B: You clicked U-Turn after you roosted on Dugtrio/Rhydon and they got a free move off like a Substitute and now your mon is taking a big hit. Conversly, you now BEAT Dugtrio's and even against Rhydon, Reflect is much more useful. I'm not as confident in this as the Mew speed, but I do believe people should be using it more and keep it in their minds when they see a Zapdos.

 

[Teh]

Here's a set dump for LGPE OU! I know most of the common mons have a set already uploaded to SmogDex but a few didn't + this is much easier to upload to cantsaycalc or a box on Showdown. I'm confident that these are all viable and splash-able sets, but obviously don't only use these ones. There are plenty of sets for each mon on this list.

https://pokepast.es/309aa907fc73b00a

 

[Samu77]

Some things I want to point out:
1: Beedrill is almost always Adamant. There isn't a single benchmark Jolly hits that Adamant doesn't because nobody runs Timid Jolteon
2: I think Substitute is a much better sample set then Will-O on Gengar. Substitute makes you threatening to the whole meta whereas Will-O debatably doesn't do anything at all that you wouldn't get just by attack since Gengar 2-shots almost the entire tier. I think Substitute over Sucker is also better on Dugtrio for similar reasons, Sucker hasn't been used much since the Mzam days effectively, although it can still be an option.
3: Due to Eve speed creeping the Melmetals in this game, I think Jolly is always the play on Melm. Self-Destruct is also basically never clicked, but Thunder Wave gets clicked a ton and is a gold standard, whereas Thunderpunch can be a secondary alternative if you feel you are going to be running into a team with waters.
4: Psychic is generally a lot simpler and effective for Mew to use over Scald. Similarly I wouldn't be running U-Turn on a +Speed Nature Mew, you want the slower one for momentum.

 

[Teh]

Some things I want to point out:
1: Beedrill is almost always Adamant. There isn't a single benchmark Jolly hits that Adamant doesn't because nobody runs Timid Jolteon
2: I think Substitute is a much better sample set then Will-O on Gengar. Substitute makes you threatening to the whole meta whereas Will-O debatably doesn't do anything at all that you wouldn't get just by attack since Gengar 2-shots almost the entire tier. I think Substitute over Sucker is also better on Dugtrio for similar reasons, Sucker hasn't been used much since the Mzam days effectively, although it can still be an option.
3: Due to Eve speed creeping the Melmetals in this game, I think Jolly is always the play on Melm. Self-Destruct is also basically never clicked, but Thunder Wave gets clicked a ton and is a gold standard, whereas Thunderpunch can be a secondary alternative if you feel you are going to be running into a team with waters.
4: Psychic is generally a lot simpler and effective for Mew to use over Scald. Similarly I wouldn't be running U-Turn on a +Speed Nature Mew, you want the slower one for momentum.

Thanks for the help! Admittedly a lot of the sets included are from my old MZam era teams, but I definitely should've caught the Dugtrio one. The paste has been updated to include these

 

[Thing 2]

Hello, I’m Ineros and lgpe ou as fascinated me recently as it feels very fun to play without any real overhwhelming threats along with the fact it feels skill based, something I really wanted to play since at the time of starting it was mostly ho slop I was dealing with in my main tier ndou. I’ll give my thoughts on the meta and a teamdump of all the stuff I’ve built

Spoiler

Teamdump

https://pokepast.es/a8621145dea8448c https://pokepast.es/9ad5b9e8b628e234 https://pokepast.es/e827c38223878b19 https://pokepast.es/2c0100fcce75f8af https://pokepast.es/7cbd67a530db4a3f https://pokepast.es/6cbd3b78f99d12a0 https://pokepast.es/ec539d52f08c4099 https://pokepast.es/3733cb835fc1b3ad https://pokepast.es/fcd9998a7854ec51 https://pokepast.es/f317624873c47f14
https://pokepast.es/d3618ca86e6fa75d

Spoiler

Now I want to give some thoughts on some mons in the meta:

I still think this has potential for the most meta development lgpe could see; there are multiple sets that are worth using and it’s the premier rocker due to its ability to rock safely vs. most of the tier early game. The toxic 2a sets are good for guaranteed progress against everything not named amuk and Tox is just a good move on mew in general for things like Mstoise and starmie. Besides that the wisp taunt sets (s/o kyo) are also nice as they deny hazards and burn key targets like maero and melm while also providing the useful burn chip on pretty much anything since fire types are non existent, making burns much more powerful. Np is good but I haven’t seen much of calm mind, seems ok to snowball vs. certain threats and makes them easier to outplay but most of the time I just go nplot if I want to break since it also lures some of the typical mew s/is.

I think this is the tier’s best speed control and ground immune option. This thing is very dangerous as a cleaner you have to respect in play as Melm is very prone to chip from opposing pokemon, which creates a very interesting dynamic of needing to preserve your Melm in the event of a maero clean. Although this is usually found on double mega teams with Venu I usually just mega this because it’s so good at being a wincon for the endgame; the reason for this is because of lgpe’s extreme lack of consistent rock resists and in the case of Rhydon / Melm their lack of longevity means they cannot stop maero forever. I also think maero is really good because of the tier being offense centered atm.

I think this pokemon is super consistent and should probably rise a rank on the vr but that’s besides the point. Like mew it is very good at setting up hazards early game and spreading chip / para to everything in the tier, because nothing besides nidos want to come in on it safely without taking a hard fire blast or thunder wave, which makes clef a lot more threatening in practice. No fairy resist is truly safe vs. clef either as most steels and poisons are frail or die to fire blast, and mew / zapdos are greatly hindered by para or moonblast spatk drops. Only issue I find with clef is how easily it can be counterlead but honestly it’s quite easy to exploit counterleads in this tier with proper building and play.

this feels one of the best glue mons in the tier to me. Being able to check Melm and be a sturdy water resist is very nice when trying to compress roles on a team. Although it might seem passive vs. Pokémon like mew, Mvenu, and mega blastoise, yawn + scald burns are very dangerous to these Pokémon and control the tempo of a game nicely. Very underused mon I didn’t see much of in lgpl but I think it should be used more due to its good mu spread against the meta and ability to control the pace of a game which matters a lot in lgpe

Saw this mon a lot weirdly enough, never really impressed me besides one game where I played like a robot. Mon is kinda horrible don’t use it, the team comps that use it would much rather prefer other megas to invest in and its current traits don’t save it from the fact that the meta is very unfriendly to it and that rocks wear it down too much

For this guy it’s by far the most splashable ground in the tier to me. Not only does it have an excellent speed tier, it also has a myriad of useful traits. For example, it does well vs. Zapdos / Melm cores once Melm is chipped (not hard) and is a solid stealth rocker in the tier due to its ability to stay in and rock vs. Zapdos and flameless mew. It struggles a ton with water types like starmie and it’s one of the more exploitable mons in the tier but it’s still consistent nonetheless in what it does. sub Tox sets should be used more to help deal with its common checks and counters but standard Tox rocks is fine as well

I hope to see you all again soon!

 

[Eve]

We have updated the LGPE OU Sample Teams list in preparation for our upcoming tournament (sign up now or else)! More may be added in the near future.

 

[Samu77]

Going to post something that has the potential to cause controversy.

This video isn't here to flame people in the current OU tour or make people feel bad or try to discourage people from playing the tier. I'm just posting this because I've been noticing some things in the tour that don't make sense and I think this video can help people understand some of the standard plays in LGPE OU and why they exist.

Again, not trying to dunk on any of the players in the match, just thought it was a good example.

(Also I've never posted a video on Smogon Forums, I barely spend any time on the platform anyways, if there's a place it should go instead and this needs to be deleted I understand. Also apologies for the slightly terrible quality, especially right at the beginning.)

 

[PhilosophicalPsychologica]

Going to post something that has the potential to cause controversy.

This video isn't here to flame people in the current OU tour or make people feel bad or try to discourage people from playing the tier. I'm just posting this because I've been noticing some things in the tour that don't make sense and I think this video can help people understand some of the standard plays in LGPE OU and why they exist.

Again, not trying to dunk on any of the players in the match, just thought it was a good example.

(Also I've never posted a video on Smogon Forums, I barely spend any time on the platform anyways, if there's a place it should go instead and this needs to be deleted I understand. Also apologies for the slightly terrible quality, especially right at the beginning.)

Hey, I don't think this is controversial at all. Not controversial enough.

I don't doubt you are a very experienced player in the very competitive and prestigious field of LGPE OU. I myself am not that experienced and I know even less about the community. Based on the sign-up sheet, I feel like a lot of the participants for this tournament were people that have never touched LGPE and joined up on a whim. In your video, you address the viewer a few times saying your audience "should" know some things, but I'm not sure how many people who will watch that video actually are indeed LGPE OU veterans.

You place a lot of emphasis that Scionicle had a better team comp overall and win "no matter what" because of it, and also Indulge's team had questionable choices. But I think it also goes without saying -- and I think this was the point of your video -- that player skill matters a lot more than team comp. I'm not sure of how good Scionicle is in LGPE. Maybe they just joined this tour and copypasta'd a team. But I think it's clear that Indulge is quite knowledgeable, despite using obscure Pokemon and in fact using them to good value. (The Dragonite and Golem served very little action in this specific battle, but I feel Indulgent did not add them lightly.) I think it's also likely that Indulgent joined the tournament "just for fun" and used "fun" Pokemon -- definitely not a poor teambuilder.

I'm not very sure what the thesis of your video is. Yes of course, it's important to be able to see a few turns ahead in the match and the move you use in the current turn should ideally have a lasting effect on the turns to come. But as you said in your conclusion, this is a guideline not specific to LGPE.

I feel that the big takeaways I got from this video were:
1. Get SR ready as soon as possible in this meta, especially against Mega Beedrill. Don't lead Mew, though.
2. Lead Melmetal into Mega Beedrill or set up the Speed tie mirror.

I'm not very sure about Melmetal because what will invariably happen is that you land DIB or Ice Punch on the Zapdos switch-in. Whereas in the Zapdos-Beedrill lead where Beedrill invariably Uturns into a Ground (as seen in this battle), what Zapdos could do is Uturn into Vaporeon for a free Surf, or into Mew for the SR exchange.

 

[scionicle]

Going to post something that has the potential to cause controversy.

This video isn't here to flame people in the current OU tour or make people feel bad or try to discourage people from playing the tier. I'm just posting this because I've been noticing some things in the tour that don't make sense and I think this video can help people understand some of the standard plays in LGPE OU and why they exist.

Again, not trying to dunk on any of the players in the match, just thought it was a good example.

(Also I've never posted a video on Smogon Forums, I barely spend any time on the platform anyways, if there's a place it should go instead and this needs to be deleted I understand. Also apologies for the slightly terrible quality, especially right at the beginning.)

Feel like responding to this. Gonna preface my post by saying thanks for the analysis. It's nice to see competitive LGPE content that isn't calling the meta trash. You had a lot of good points that are generally true even outside of the tier, but I want to explain my thoughts on a few turns. I used a sample team, and I don't think I had a "guaranteed win" due to my lack of answers for Bulk Up Mew. No offense to whoever made the team; it's great in most matchups.

First, I don't think the Zapdos lead was objectively bad. Poison Jab and Golem were never major threats because I had Reflect. The sequence you described with Melmetal -> Rhydon -> Mew was good, but could've put me in an even worse position against his Mew if it started setting up in front of mine. As Philosophical mentioned, I would immediately have to call out an opposing Zapdos swap to avoid being behind if I led Melmetal. Melmetal certainly would've forced more damage immediately, but his Zapdos had many opportunities to Roost back up to full against my team, and the turns following turn 1 would've likely just been me getting U-Turned on. It also seemed more important than Zapdos overall due to the presence of Beedrill and Dragonite on the other team, so I didn't want to be forced to risk its HP if I got the lead matchup or turn 1 wrong.

I don't go Mew on Golem turn 2 because my Mew was completely walled by it (flame/sr/roost/uturn), and I'd be giving up a ton of momentum if it clicked Substitute. Idk if it ever runs that, but I was treating it like a Rhydon with Explosion over Megahorn. I do agree that there were other opportunities for me to bring Mew in, but I wanted to keep it around for Melmetal and to soft check the opposing Mew. I think I should've double switched to get it in on turn 3 or turn 12- I was definitely playing too scared with it for its role in the game.

You also say that I could've gone hard Vaporeon upon seeing Bulk Up Mew- I don't agree that this is a riskless play. Admittedly I haven't played much this tier and I've never seen Bulk Up Mew before, but it seemed reasonable to assume that its main attack for Rhydon was Earthquake (Drain Punch isn't in LGPE...). If Mew clicked Earthquake into my Rhydon at +1, I would've been risking an 78.5% 2HKO on Vaporeon after Stealth Rock. If that happens, I immediately lose my only way to stop Mew from winning. My team had no Toxic and my other special attackers didn't do enough damage to it to prevent it from healing.

The rest of the game was ugly because I was super behind so thanks for not covering that lol.

 

[Samu77]

Feel like responding to this. Gonna preface my post by saying thanks for the analysis. It's nice to see competitive LGPE content that isn't calling the meta trash. You had a lot of good points that are generally true even outside of the tier, but I want to explain my thoughts on a few turns. I used a sample team, and I don't think I had a "guaranteed win" due to my lack of answers for Bulk Up Mew. No offense to whoever made the team; it's great in most matchups.

First, I don't think the Zapdos lead was objectively bad. Poison Jab and Golem were never major threats because I had Reflect. The sequence you described with Melmetal -> Rhydon -> Mew was good, but could've put me in an even worse position against his Mew if it started setting up in front of mine. As Philosophical mentioned, I would immediately have to call out an opposing Zapdos swap to avoid being behind if I led Melmetal. Melmetal certainly would've forced more damage immediately, but his Zapdos had many opportunities to Roost back up to full against my team, and the turns following turn 1 would've likely just been me getting U-Turned on. It also seemed more important than Zapdos overall due to the presence of Beedrill and Dragonite on the other team, so I didn't want to be forced to risk its HP if I got the lead matchup or turn 1 wrong.

I don't go Mew on Golem turn 2 because my Mew was completely walled by it (flame/sr/roost/uturn), and I'd be giving up a ton of momentum if it clicked Substitute. Idk if it ever runs that, but I was treating it like a Rhydon with Explosion over Megahorn. I do agree that there were other opportunities for me to bring Mew in, but I wanted to keep it around for Melmetal and to soft check the opposing Mew. I think I should've double switched to get it in on turn 3 or turn 12- I was definitely playing too scared with it for its role in the game.

You also say that I could've gone hard Vaporeon upon seeing Bulk Up Mew- I don't agree that this is a riskless play. Admittedly I haven't played much this tier and I've never seen Bulk Up Mew before, but it seemed reasonable to assume that its main attack for Rhydon was Earthquake (Drain Punch isn't in LGPE...). If Mew clicked Earthquake into my Rhydon at +1, I would've been risking an 78.5% 2HKO on Vaporeon after Stealth Rock. If that happens, I immediately lose my only way to stop Mew from winning. My team had no Toxic and my other special attackers didn't do enough damage to it to prevent it from healing.

The rest of the game was ugly because I was super behind so thanks for not covering that lol.

I think that with this post some of your plays make more sense. I don't with everything here in terms of playing the game itself however.

The first thing I want to highlight is that while it is true that Zapdos in theory might be fine against Golem and Beedrill in a background because of Poison Jab, it's also important to realize that it makes it so hard to play the game because whenever you have Zapdos in it gives your opponent either a free 25% against what's usually the primary Melmetal answer or a free move.

One thing to realize, like Philisophical mentioned, is that getting SR up ASAP is the most important thing in the tier, and the problem here with leading Zapdos is that you are giving your opponent free game control over the first turn while you cannot get rocks up soon without making an incredibly hard read in order to get up rocks, this is partially because Mega Beedrill is so absurdly annoying but also because it's just hard to find a free turn in the match when it's not the start. You might think Golem isn't a threat because you have Reflect and that's kind of true, but the thing I've seen people not realizing is how bad it is to send Zapdos in on Stealth Rocks and then click Reflect and have to switch out. Doing this makes it so much harder to check Melmetal in the long term and forces you to keep Roosting which is just giving your opponents free turns to pop off with whatever ground type they have. You have Vaporeon and Rhydon, but generally speaking they have other jobs to be doing as well. If this way a Rhydon instead of a Golem on the opp's team (which it honestly should but I'll get to that in a minute), you'd be in deep trouble because you can't just wall the rocks with Reflect Zapdos unless you want to play several turns of mind games which will almost never leave you in a better position.

Conversly leading Melmetal (Or Beedrill, which is something I wouldn't do personally because it immediately plays into a mirror match, but it is a viable option) is 90% of the time going to give them a free Zapdos switch on you clicking DIB yes (although you could call out with Ice Punch), but it also gives you a free Rhydon switch which NOTHING wants to switch into on their team, and makes it hard for them to get their rocks up as well, which is going to keep your Zapdos in play much longer then getting Reflect up against Beedrill. Even if they have Reflect to try and combat Rhydon, it doesn't really actually do much at the end of the day and eventually you're just out of the drivers seat.

As for the team, I admittedly wasn't there for the making of the sample teams, and several other people know how I believe a lot of the more creative options in Let's Go are actually fairly terrible (I still think Alolan-Egg is -1 team slot), but I understand that if it's your first time playing the tier that you might just want to use what you think is good. I think both teams are pretty bad because on the whole they aren't matching up to the metagame very well, but it's completely understandable to not have that with a sample team. Those who know me know that I also think there are like, five viable teams in the entire meta but I mean IDK ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. BU Mew is usually an insane fish anyways and those who aren't really ready for it usually get screwed, but this is also why I've advocated for not experimenting too much with sets (I roll my eyes every time I see Sucker Punch Dugtrio)

Again, the purpose of the video isn't to flame any one person or discourage people from playing the tier. I do think though the first turn was an objectively poor, it sets you too far behind in the long run and it doesn't address the fundamental issues at the start of the match (IE: Mega Beedrill is super annoying) with or without BU Mew. This could have been NP Mew and it still could have taken 2 which would have lost you the game.


My point with going Vaporeon the second you see BU Mew mainly was that without doing so it's going to be impossible long term for you to beat it without some kind of hard read anyways. Taking the Zapdos route is fine, but generally I think it doesn't really address the more fundamental issue there.

 

[leoperi]

Going to post something that has the potential to cause controversy.

This video isn't here to flame people in the current OU tour or make people feel bad or try to discourage people from playing the tier. I'm just posting this because I've been noticing some things in the tour that don't make sense and I think this video can help people understand some of the standard plays in LGPE OU and why they exist.

Again, not trying to dunk on any of the players in the match, just thought it was a good example.

(Also I've never posted a video on Smogon Forums, I barely spend any time on the platform anyways, if there's a place it should go instead and this needs to be deleted I understand. Also apologies for the slightly terrible quality, especially right at the beginning.)

felt like i was watching a bkc video this is awesome. i love those kind of commentary vids helps alot newer ppl understand the meta.

 

[Samu77]

Some people mentioned they didn't get fully what I had to say last time so I decided to to upload my game this time. I probably unintentionally sound a bit more harsh against Derpy in this video, so I apologize for that because it was not my intention, I just think some of the moves and sets were poor. That said Taunt Mew is not a real set and here's why.

 

[DerpySuX]

If your intention isn’t to “dunk on someone” then maybe try scripting your videos because I watched that earnestly trying to learn something from my set and all I got instead was someone calling me bad for using a team I was given in my first solo tournament appearance in lgpe.

 

[Samu77]

I never called you a bad player in the video, and I've mentioned before previously in the other video that there's nothing wrong with loading the tier and entering a tournament just to have fun with it and that not everybody needs to be a superstar at Let's Go. If it bothers you that much I'll delete it but even though I may phrase my words more harshly then I intended to here, I think if you aren't taking anything away from the video outside of me just flaming a player for a suboptimal team then either you haven't watched the full video (impossible because it's a half an hour + video and I made the post 20 minutes ago) or you just aren't willing to accept it is a bad team.

Again, there's nothing wrong with just loading up a sample team and trying to have fun in the tier, but like I mentioned in the previous post, the sample teams are not great and the whole point of this and the last video is to showcase that even basic things like "don't run taunt Mew" and "you should run a ground type or else you are accepting your Zapdos MU is terrible" aren't known in this tier because it's so niche and unknown, even if I don't sound the nicest while doing so I'd like to think that somebody can get something from this.

Also your plays were good in the two matches, with the exception of in the second game you choosing Alo-Dug speed ties instead of just using Mega Aero to Revenge kill my own. I didn't play perfectly either, and I talk like half the entire time in the second game how bad I was for letting Blastoise die for no good reason, which I deserved to lose in.

 

[DerpySuX]

There’s ways to say things without being a complete asshole is what I’m saying. I honestly couldn’t give a fuck if you think the team is good or not, it’s not even my team. I don’t have to watch the whole video to get the general vibe of what you’re doing and I didn’t like it.

Regardless of intent if you want people to stick around and play the tier then I would suggest not “making an example” of random people on a whim.

 

[Samu77]

There’s ways to say things without being a complete asshole is what I’m saying. I honestly couldn’t give a fuck if you think the team is good or not, it’s not even my team. I don’t have to watch the whole video to get the general vibe of what you’re doing and I didn’t like it.

Regardless of intent if you want people to stick around and play the tier then I would suggest not “making an example” of random people on a whim.

Just tell me if you want the video gone and I'll do it. I think there's plenty of stuff to learn here for players more unfamiliar with the tier but if it really upsets you that much I'll take it down.

 

[GrimtheImpy]

My run is over, I love you all <3
And I was a bit dumb throughout it but I might as well dump my teams here for my friends to grab if they wanna pick up this tier
For those of you who are reading this because I dragged you here, watch and learn or something

First Team https://pokepast.es/31ae24c98b3c07e4
This is my first lgpe team tho with a lot of modifications since round 1, I liked Mega Aero's playstyle in general and I backed it ul with Rhydon cuz I thought it was cool, yeah that simple. As a dirty Serp 9OU Player, I went with sub Gengar because funny fishing for that switch or para. Rest is standard stuff except taunt mew since I anticipated Sabelette to lead a rocks mkn that isn't aero(cuz ik she isn't as blatantly reckless as me) which worked kind of.

Second Team https://pokepast.es/f79f86350b520cb4
it has mega gyarados
And it's dual mega
dysfunctional

Next Team please

Third Team https://pokepast.es/e128acc244c75d5a

COLOR OF THE WIND, SPREAD YOUR WINGS AND SWEEP ALL IN YOUR PATH. GO BLUE WAVE DRAGON TETRA DRIVE DRAGON.
Larping aside this is the last of my main teams. Double Ground to annoy Zapdos and Jolteon. Standard NP Mew with Zapdos and Melmetal. Play like a moron win

Loser's Finals Teams

Round 1 and 2 https://pokepast.es/bc507dedfc8269a6
Same Concept as the first team except Starmie>Gengar. No reason other than I think they are interchangable, besides the fact it backfired on me round 2

Round 3 https://pokepast.es/671a01ae85684bb1
Amuk+venu are a good duo. Dugtrio rocks(get it) and other standard stuff again.

Ok cool this is done I am writing this in my hotel room while on vacation. But I really enjoyed this tier and I am gonna keep promoting to all my friends irl and maybe online cuz I honestly love it. Great community and great people. Sorry if my descriptions are terrible but that's really just my thought process when making these teams.


uhhh something something, sabelette I am gonna get you next time, I promise
I will not throw

 

[Samu77]

My run is over, I love you all <3
And I was a bit dumb throughout it but I might as well dump my teams here for my friends to grab if they wanna pick up this tier
For those of you who are reading this because I dragged you here, watch and learn or something

First Team https://pokepast.es/31ae24c98b3c07e4
This is my first lgpe team tho with a lot of modifications since round 1, I liked Mega Aero's playstyle in general and I backed it ul with Rhydon cuz I thought it was cool, yeah that simple. As a dirty Serp 9OU Player, I went with sub Gengar because funny fishing for that switch or para. Rest is standard stuff except taunt mew since I anticipated Sabelette to lead a rocks mkn that isn't aero(cuz ik she isn't as blatantly reckless as me) which worked kind of.

Second Team https://pokepast.es/f79f86350b520cb4
it has mega gyarados
And it's dual mega
dysfunctional

Next Team please

Third Team https://pokepast.es/e128acc244c75d5a

COLOR OF THE WIND, SPREAD YOUR WINGS AND SWEEP ALL IN YOUR PATH. GO BLUE WAVE DRAGON TETRA DRIVE DRAGON.
Larping aside this is the last of my main teams. Double Ground to annoy Zapdos and Jolteon. Standard NP Mew with Zapdos and Melmetal. Play like a moron win

Loser's Finals Teams

Round 1 and 2 https://pokepast.es/bc507dedfc8269a6
Same Concept as the first team except Starmie>Gengar. No reason other than I think they are interchangable, besides the fact it backfired on me round 2

Round 3 https://pokepast.es/671a01ae85684bb1
Amuk+venu are a good duo. Dugtrio rocks(get it) and other standard stuff again.

Ok cool this is done I am writing this in my hotel room while on vacation. But I really enjoyed this tier and I am gonna keep promoting to all my friends irl and maybe online cuz I honestly love it. Great community and great people. Sorry if my descriptions are terrible but that's really just my thought process when making these teams.


uhhh something something, sabelette I am gonna get you next time, I promise
I will not throw

Gonna give my thought on these joints hey

First off some universal things. Melm should (probably) always be Jolly (I blame Eve). Now anybody who's played me knows that I would always rather run a nature that actual hits something I wouldn't earlier (like Adamant on Aerodactyl) but this is one case where I think it's justified since DIB Flinches can save your arse, it also can outspeed Paralyzed Venu as well.

I'm a known hater of Taunt Mew and I've softened slightly on it, but I still think it's only really good for opposing Toxic Flamethrower Mew, and honestly not THAT good against it. Either way I AM a big hater of Rocks Dugtrio. You need rocks to actually pressure the tier instead of letting things just switch around for free, and when giving up that one Zapdos turn (because in all honestly it's hard to set up rocks on anything but Zapdos) that can spiral into a lot of things. I do think Nasty Plot Mew is good, especially when people don't respect it in the teambuilder, but Dugtrio is much too valuable I'd say to be clicking Stealth Rocks with. There's a reason we don't use SR on Rhydon, using it on Dug feels better because it's more likely to get them up, but I'd still say it's never worth it.

It's good you aren't falling for the Psychic Thunderbolt Roost Nasty Plot set trap that others are, it does nothing Mega Drain + Psychic doesn't do and doesn't make you look silly when Melmetal survives a Tbolt and something revenge kills you after a DIB

For the individual teams:

1: Aside from my hatred of Taunt Mew, it's a really good team, no need to change anything here altho I guess Hasty Gengar suboptimal.

2: I really don't like this team personally. Aside from the fact I'm not a fan of dual Mega's, I think this is much worse because base Gyarados is just so bad that whenever you'd need Mega Aero (against Mega Bee) you are down 1. Taunt Rocks Aero doesn't work for many reasons, IE: Clefable or Mew is just going to outdamage you while you Taunt and you are down 1 mon, they can always lead something else when your Taunt Rocks is too telegraphed like it is here, because you can't risk NOT preventing rocks when your team is so weak to it. Even with this team I'd also recommend against putting Toxic on the Zapdos, because the mons you are trying to handle it with can be somewhat handled by the others and Reflect feels more necessary then ever on a Gyarados team because Mega Bee is so annoying for it anyways. I also saw too late you said it was dysfunctional and was writing this out anyways... mmm... bummer

3: Been seeing these dual ground teams crop up and not sure how I feel about them. I like the idea but I'm just not too sure about the practicality of using Dug to get the rocks up then using Rhydon as your usual ground type. One thing I will say though is that this team gets annihilated by a Mega Venusaur, Nasty Plot Mew alone is not a reliable answer for it because you usually only get one shot at using NP Mew and it's your job to take it as far as it can go in that one shot. I'd have to see more statistics and data on how these teams perform but my recommendation would be running Gengar over Zapdos. Just be aware you are going to also have a rough time against Stoise teams now. It's tough though.

4: You're just using Mie over Gengar here, and it's fine, but I wouldn't say they are interchangeable because they aren't. Gengar can do things like 1v1 a Zapdos and actually take on Venusaur that Starmie can't. Vice versa Starmie can do things like revenge kill a Dugtrio from full (or switching into it if you aren't scared of Sucker Punch). Use them to patch up whatever weakness you'd say is greater. Personally I would use Gar here because your Mega Venu MU isn't great, you're going to hate Nasty Plot Mew and I do honestly think it's the better Pokemon. I also personally think with Starmie you need to go all in on the power and use Hydro Pump (I hate it too, hence why I use Vaporeon so much). Other then that it works

5: You better hope you don't run into Mega Beedrill if you ever load this lol. I don't see how you would ever with that MU. I'm not thrilled about this either way because it also really hates Mega Aero. I will also say though I don't already like Muk, I like it even less when you don't have the defensive backbone of a Regular Mew to switch into when a Dugtrio or something hits the field. Clicking Earthquake in general is just very good against this team. I'm not a fan but I'm also pretty harsh when it comes to teambuilding. It DID almost win you the last game after all.

Anyways those are my thoughts, you should be proud in making it to third place in a tier you never played before, so don't get too discouraged.

As a side note not related to Grim's post depending on how the finals go I may or may not post more content about the tier, including more replays analyzing my games (that I will check with the opponent to make sure they are okay with me posting before recording them), so we'll see then. Until then Sabelette and I have a score to settle. May Aero flinch as fast as he flies.

 

[GrimtheImpy]

Gonna give my thought on these joints hey

First off some universal things. Melm should (probably) always be Jolly (I blame Eve). Now anybody who's played me knows that I would always rather run a nature that actual hits something I wouldn't earlier (like Adamant on Aerodactyl) but this is one case where I think it's justified since DIB Flinches can save your arse, it also can outspeed Paralyzed Venu as well.

I'm a known hater of Taunt Mew and I've softened slightly on it, but I still think it's only really good for opposing Toxic Flamethrower Mew, and honestly not THAT good against it. Either way I AM a big hater of Rocks Dugtrio. You need rocks to actually pressure the tier instead of letting things just switch around for free, and when giving up that one Zapdos turn (because in all honestly it's hard to set up rocks on anything but Zapdos) that can spiral into a lot of things. I do think Nasty Plot Mew is good, especially when people don't respect it in the teambuilder, but Dugtrio is much too valuable I'd say to be clicking Stealth Rocks with. There's a reason we don't use SR on Rhydon, using it on Dug feels better because it's more likely to get them up, but I'd still say it's never worth it.

It's good you aren't falling for the Psychic Thunderbolt Roost Nasty Plot set trap that others are, it does nothing Mega Drain + Psychic doesn't do and doesn't make you look silly when Melmetal survives a Tbolt and something revenge kills you after a DIB

For the individual teams:

1: Aside from my hatred of Taunt Mew, it's a really good team, no need to change anything here altho I guess Hasty Gengar suboptimal.

2: I really don't like this team personally. Aside from the fact I'm not a fan of dual Mega's, I think this is much worse because base Gyarados is just so bad that whenever you'd need Mega Aero (against Mega Bee) you are down 1. Taunt Rocks Aero doesn't work for many reasons, IE: Clefable or Mew is just going to outdamage you while you Taunt and you are down 1 mon, they can always lead something else when your Taunt Rocks is too telegraphed like it is here, because you can't risk NOT preventing rocks when your team is so weak to it. Even with this team I'd also recommend against putting Toxic on the Zapdos, because the mons you are trying to handle it with can be somewhat handled by the others and Reflect feels more necessary then ever on a Gyarados team because Mega Bee is so annoying for it anyways. I also saw too late you said it was dysfunctional and was writing this out anyways... mmm... bummer

3: Been seeing these dual ground teams crop up and not sure how I feel about them. I like the idea but I'm just not too sure about the practicality of using Dug to get the rocks up then using Rhydon as your usual ground type. One thing I will say though is that this team gets annihilated by a Mega Venusaur, Nasty Plot Mew alone is not a reliable answer for it because you usually only get one shot at using NP Mew and it's your job to take it as far as it can go in that one shot. I'd have to see more statistics and data on how these teams perform but my recommendation would be running Gengar over Zapdos. Just be aware you are going to also have a rough time against Stoise teams now. It's tough though.

4: You're just using Mie over Gengar here, and it's fine, but I wouldn't say they are interchangeable because they aren't. Gengar can do things like 1v1 a Zapdos and actually take on Venusaur that Starmie can't. Vice versa Starmie can do things like revenge kill a Dugtrio from full (or switching into it if you aren't scared of Sucker Punch). Use them to patch up whatever weakness you'd say is greater. Personally I would use Gar here because your Mega Venu MU isn't great, you're going to hate Nasty Plot Mew and I do honestly think it's the better Pokemon. I also personally think with Starmie you need to go all in on the power and use Hydro Pump (I hate it too, hence why I use Vaporeon so much). Other then that it works

5: You better hope you don't run into Mega Beedrill if you ever load this lol. I don't see how you would ever with that MU. I'm not thrilled about this either way because it also really hates Mega Aero. I will also say though I don't already like Muk, I like it even less when you don't have the defensive backbone of a Regular Mew to switch into when a Dugtrio or something hits the field. Clicking Earthquake in general is just very good against this team. I'm not a fan but I'm also pretty harsh when it comes to teambuilding. It DID almost win you the last game after all.

Anyways those are my thoughts, you should be proud in making it to third place in a tier you never played before, so don't get too discouraged.

As a side note not related to Grim's post depending on how the finals go I may or may not post more content about the tier, including more replays analyzing my games (that I will check with the opponent to make sure they are okay with me posting before recording them), so we'll see then. Until then Sabelette and I have a score to settle. May Aero flinch as fast as he flies.

Thanks for the feedback, the Mega Gyara team was a dumb meme that somehow worked for so long idk how it even worked. Uh Hasty Gengar is something I keep forgetting to change whenever I import this team from other devices(I am on vacation rn). For 5 I thought amuk sounded appealing on paper(cuz yk outdated analysis and such).

And actually I did run into a lot of the issues you mentioned.My solution? Uhhh hax lmao.

I'll take of this for next time.I am gonna make some awesome teams that don't require hax to win(or maybe I wil I just had the worst idea brew up in my head).

 

[Samu77]

Tier list hey

 

[Samu77]

My SSNL matches , analyzed.

Beedrill is broken btw

 

[Samu77]

Incoming essay:

So recently since the end of the latest OU Tour and the beginning of LGPE player league I have noticed a couple of trends, the uptick and Beedrill (called it!), a surge of Alolan Muk, maybe a little less Mega Aerodactyl than expected, the usual tier shifts yada yada, but there's one I've noticed especially and that's the ongoing battle of Alolan-Dugtrio vs Rhydon, so today I'm going to analyze that ongoing battle, give an objective reasoning of the advantages of both and to see how exactly they both fit into the entire meta and how good they realistically are at their job (goes beyond checking Zapdos, although that will of course be mentioned.) If you are new to LGPE OU, this might not be for you, it might be hard at a glance to understand how exactly the ebb and flow of the tier pushes these two into needed to go beyond their usual stations of "checking Zapdos". It may be weird that I'm doing this in the middle of PL, but I don't think enough people will read/care about this post for it to effect nor will it likely change the opinions of those who already lean towards one side about choosing which Pokemon (or opting out of the Ground entirely). I won't mention Pokemon like Nidoqueen and Nidoking and base Dugtrio because to put it blunty, they are bad and they probably won't work at all vs a top player.

Let's start with the raw numbers between the two, as of the 4th round of PL, we have had of course 24 games, which accounts for 48 teams. Of these teams we have had 18 Alolan-Dugtrio and 14 Rhydon, together that makes for a clean 3/4s of all teams going with one of them. This might be surprising to some but I'd say it's about on par with what's to be expected. I've been thinking lesser of Zapdos for a while, and other options like Jolteon or for lack of a better word "wannabe heroes" with Nido's have been used in lieu of these two (or just not worrying about the Zapdos MU).

For the individual weeks breakdown, the results are a little more striking:

W1:
Dug: 4
Don: 5

W2:
Dug: 6
Don: 1

W3:
Dug: 6
Don: 4

W4: (Pending)
Dug: 2
Don: 4

Of these W2 is the most striking, but I'm not willing to put a cause on why because it could be for a million reasons, lets just say its very weird and leave it at that.

I could post win statistics but I feel as if it's not fully emblematic of the full picture because somebody the tournament isn't over yet, its a player league so people are being swapped in and out and again I can't lock down a cause as for why for things like W2.

So Dugtrio's still more popular. Not surprising but this is still a fall from what it usually performs, or at least it has been one over time. Again, not surprising as Beedrill's uptick forces people to want to pick Rhydon (I'll dive into this a little more in a second). I don't think its going to shock anybody that I still see it as the better option, but now I want to break down the specific advantages that Dugtrio holds over Rhydon including how well they actually check Zapdos. I would do one for Rhydon as well but this is going to mostly encompass the comparison of the two pretty wholly. Admittedly by directly comparing Dugtrio against Rhydon in a Pro-Con list will make Rhydon sound worse, and this part is meant to be done in a more objective tone (though I do offer my points when I think it is necessary to point something out that I think makes no sense even if other people use it), however it is easier to do it this way and putting a pro-pro list on both doesn't highlight their specific issues, which can often be the decider between somebody bringing one over the other instead of their pros being the decider.

Dugtrio over Rhydon pros:
Speed, obviously. Outspeeds Vaporeon, Venusaur, Mega Blastoise (though Jet complicates matters if on low HP), Mew, Zapdos and the increasingly popular Alolan-Muk. It also does not risk Speed Tie against Opposing Rhydon or Alo-Exeggutor (though admitedly I have no idea what nature Alo-Egg runs, however Adamant is standard on Rhydon, maybe not for great reason). You get a speed tie on Gengar too in case of emergancies. Of these, I want to highly Vaporeon because often a chipped Vaporeon is a dead Vaporeon. Simiarly with Aero teams that EQ on Blastoise can be a big deal. Toxic crippling Mew is also a big deal, guarenteed reward assuming you hit it and it makes getting rid of Mew easier, and also serves to limit Nasty Plot varients both by nature of the hit is puts on a potentially already hurt Mew or by means of Toxic limiting it. Rhydon is actually MORE of a liability against NP Mew Varients because the Mega Drain will give it so much health back that it gets even harder to take it down, so it becomes a pretty bad Pokemon to sac for tempo against it. The Zapdos outspeed is good or bad depending on your viewpoint. You are fored to hit it before your target if you don't click Sub and if you do Drill Peck can break it.

This is related to the speed but this obviously makes it way harder to revenge kill Dugtrio then Rhydon. With Rhydon, taking a revenge kill can mean playing Yawn games with Vaporeon, a Sleep Powder or free Leech from Venu, Starmie getting a free pump off you get the picture. I think this makes Rhydon much harder to play as well and very limiting, and easily offsets the advantage you get of the more solid Zapdos MU. And if you are forced to throw Dugtrio away to get an Earthquake off on a Pokemon that beats it like Vaporeon, its better then the nothing you get from Rhydon.

Highlighting the Zapdos MU, Zapdos will often get the Reflect up on you if you are using Dugtrio, and you may be forced to Toxic it to really force the issue, but it's important to note that like Vaporeon, a Toxic'd Zapdos is likely a dead Zapdos because it's going to have a massive problem with the Melmetal that it's going to want to check later. This is conjecture as well but in the early game a Reflect from Zapdos in exchange for a Toxic is massively losing for the Zapdos because it is going to be hard to make use of it later, and in the early stages of a game a Mew will likely hold on long enough for the Reflect to go away and for the rest of the team to start breaking through it.

One thing I want to bring up is that Melmetal breaking Dugtrio's sub can in some ways be more annoying then the Rhydon matchup, which is one of Rhydon's selling points is the Melm outspeed. When Melm clicks DIB against either, Dugtrio takes a much lower percentage of it's health, and while it needs chip to ensure the KO, it can actually still come back later in the fight. A Rhydon that takes DIB even through Substitute is going to be much harder to bring back into the fight conversly, and after the U-Turn and SR chip from Zapdos, that adds up to it not reliably completley blocking Zapdos later, which is the appeal of Rhydon. Dugtrio dies to just about anything after that, but it can force Drill Peck from Zapdos to take the kill and depending on the rolls it might actually just live that Drill Peck Raw. I actually think this is one of the biggest reasons why I think Dugtrio is still better then Rhydon, a Melm can choose to completely trade with a Rhydon, and while it can with Dugtrio, Dugtrio can switch out where as Rhydon will have to fire in and leave an incredibly slow and weakened Pokemon that pretty much anything can pick off.

I'll briefly mention Stealth Rocks and Sucker Punch. To put it bluntly I think SR Dugtrio is a massive throw and fish and Sucker Punch is never worth it. Dugtrio almost never gets Stealth Rocks up by the time it matters (IE, when Zapdos first gets sent in), leading it is basically delcaring to your opponent out the first turn that their sweeper Mew exists and that you are allowed to prepare for it throughout the whole game, and against Beedrill? Forget it. Sucker Punch has value in the Pokemon that don't have status moves, but this is actually kinda rare. Still, it CAN work, but I think giving yourself the tools that will do something (outside of the 90% accuracy) is almost always better then taking 50/50s, and if your opponent sees you have it every move can turn into a while guessing game. The days of Mega Zam are over.

Lastly, as the certified number 1 Let's Go Overused flinching expert, I would be remiss to of course neglect to mention that with luck Dugtrio can theoretically 1v1 every Pokemon in the game not named Jolteon, Mega Beedrill, Mega Aerodactyl and Starmie, and kinda Mega-Blastoise. Being the faster Pokemon also lends itself naturally to haxing with Critical Hits more, something that has impacted many games.

Cons for Dugtrio over Rhydon:
Loses to Stealth Rocks Mew; this is the biggest one because it's the most common. While you can usually stave it off with a hit and or Toxic, its still bad and never how you want to use your Dugtrio, while Rhydon just blows through it assuming you have Sub up. This is only assuming a U-Turn Psychic set as well, with Flame Toxic Rhydon just slams it while Dugtrio just gets obliterated.

You also don't take the Earthquake and Drill run from Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Beedrill respectively, while Rhydon does. I think this in practice isn't as major despite what the higher then usual usage Rhydon is suggesting, but it is something that Dugtrio struggles with over Rhydon since it is an option. Still, if Beedrill gets a U-Turn off on Rhydon its not exactly taking the next hit very well anyways now is it.

The Starmie weakness is also of note for being worse because under Substitute Rhydon will kill it with Megahorn whereas Dugtrio will only get about 50% off. Starmie usage has been falling lately but it's still something to note because a Starmie in TP is just bad for Dugtrio.

In a similar vein although Dugtrio can beat it and it still might be your only answer in the team, Jolteon can straight up two shot Dugtrio. It's range but it's worth noting. Ironically too because the range is so tight SR chip actually does matter against Jolt. A Jolt that switches out has way higher odds to kill Dugtrio with two Shadow Balls. Rhydon sort of has this problem as well but it is better against Jolteon unless there is a crit or drop.

As I've highlighted before, Dugtrio also has a worse time straight up stonewalling Zapdos as well. There is nothing outside of the ancient and rarely-used Toxic Reflect Zapdos that beats Rhydon, whereas a Reflect Drill Peck actually can and sometimes does just beat Dugtrio. It almost never happens but it's worth noting, it also makes getting the Reflect up against Dugtrio better, whereas every turn Zapdos is in against Rhydon is life and death.

And lastly, the damage. This is the biggest reason some people cite Rhydon as better overall but outside of Melmetal I have never understood this argument if I'm being honest. Dugtrio will outspeed every other Pokemon anyways, and two Earthquakes from Dugtrio is better then the one Rhydon usually only gets. That said the Earthquake Rhydon hits Melm will usually give Mega Aerodactyl the floor to sweep whereas you need more with Dugtrio, the Drill Run from Beedrill also requires a little more work as well but in practice against Bee teams Melm usually gets broken down in ways where this chip is either trivial or doesn't come into play.

Since this last point was a bit unfair to painting Rhydon in a good light, it is important to highlight again in order to properly sell it on its strengths that if it gets a sub up against Zapdos that means something is taking a massive hit (often dying if being realistic) and there are multiple Pokemon that just can't be in on it period (like if you were to leave Mega Aero against a Subbed Rhydon). It beating the most common Mew sets is a big deal when it comes to every match, and Dugtrio hates seeing Starmie, a common Pokemon, so much that these are big, seriously, real advantages and not to be undersold.

This last one didn't fit anywhere and is more of a direct Rhydon con rather then a con compared to Dugtrio, but in an effort to cover all bases (as best I can anyways), it's worth mentioning that it would be easier to exploit a Rhydon if you knew it was coming then it would a Dugtrio. For a clean answer against Dug it might require dedicating the Mega Slot to something that always outspeeds and kills it like Aero or Beedrill (or Pidgeot if you are insane lol), Rhydon can be more easily prepped against with a more gimmicky albeit less team-constraining and more move-constraining choice like Scald Mew or Mega Drain Gengar. There's also the consideration that it can be harder to switch out against something like a Vaporeon because they can still get away with clicking Ice Beam or Surf against you (honestly getting a Sball or Yawn isn't even bad either), this can potentially put you back immensly if you guess wrong. On the list of tiny cons too is Megahorn is more likely to miss then other moves, but again, both mons click innacurate moves, so this is the most minor of minor things

So where has the metagame shifted to account for the higher Rhydon usage? Is it the Mega Beedrill? The increase of Drill Peck Reflect Zapdos? The influx of newer people to Let's Go Overused that might understand Rhydon a bit more easily then Alo-Dugtrio, especially if they come from RBY? The lower Starmie usage in favor of Vaporeon would suggest Dugtrio would be more popular because its one less Pokemon it hates seeing, but this isn't the case. Well I'm never going to have a definitive answer, but I would likely theorize that due to people seeing how oppresive Mega Beedrill and Aerodactyl are (both of these mons are significantly better then the other two mega's due to the way they force you to play, its just the truth) that every extra check against it is seen as a massive boon by newer players, and still something they didn't have before against if you are a more experienced player and expect to see more of these. If you are a more experienced player and you can see the lines of play a bit better, it may also be important to note that with this that Rhydon may feel better if you think you can strictly outplay your opponent and call every turn right. The 25% you take from Substitute only needs to happen if you can't get the turn right after all, and with Dugtrio against Zapdos it can be much more necessary since it's the only way you are getting a hit off on the thing that comes in next. This is kind of a silly point to bring up because in a more realistic world everybody just clicks Sub against Zapdos for fear of not getting the turn right, but it COULD be a factor. Some people might also see that Rhydon "beats" more Pokemon in a fight then Dugtrio, and that could also be a reason, and similarly it could be a reason that "Rhydon hits harder so it is more appealing, big number better". There is unfortunately no way to know for certain as to why this rise in usage is occuring, but it is interesting to look into.

If you need win rates to decide more on who the better Pokemon is here personally, I'm sure Eve or I will be happy to provide them, but I don't think the win rates are encompassing of who the better Pokemon is here, at least for PL, because the data it provides isn't as conclusive as the one provided for a standard OU tour.

And to round this out I'm going to give my extremely predictable thoughts as to why I still think Dugtrio is the better Pokemon. I also am going to preface this by saying I don't think it is team dependent either: I think Dugtrio is just a strictly better Pokemon then Rhydon in terms of the control it gives you regardless of if it is on an Aerodactyl team or a Beedrill team.

Firstly the Alolan-Muk uptick for this tour (and it may for all we know be relegated only to this tour) is a big deal. What is a liability for Rhydon is an answer to a rising mon that doesn't force your Mega Slot or force you to pick Midoqueen. This isn't a big deal on the face of it since in my personal opinion if you are going without one of Beedrill, Dugtrio or Aerodactly, your team is likely very slow and is going to hate seeing a fast Pokemon like Dugtrio, which leads into my second point:

It is incredibly easy to force a KO with Dugtrio because of its speed when paired with one of the top two Mega's, and given that it's honestly kind of hard to use all of the HP of an Aerodactyl or Beedrill through Stealth Rocks alone, and most other hits they take are going to be worse, I find these kills incredibly easy to push and honestly somewhat choosy. With Rhydon your opponent likely gets to sac whatever they want to break your sub and then force you out because it is so slow. Revenge killing is only done through one of these which puts them on a timer and Beedrill doesn't like forcing to U-Turn on Melm because it gets a free move to launch, with Zapdos still alive that can be a dead Zapdos if you click Ice Punch. You getting to pressure the opponent more can cause their sacs like Mew to die out faster then yours because you are in more control of the pace even if Rhydon is getting a KO.

The speed offered by Dugtrio also makes it so that you aren't as screwed if you miss a Rock Slide, whereas missing with Rhydon causes your big nuke to lose it's protection in sub, Dugtrio isn't clicking Rock Slide against anything that isn't Zapdos anyways unless it is trying to hax (where Rhydon won't help you there anyways) so it doesn't really risk losing anything against the chip on Zapdos, which honestly isn't so much for killing it out but forcing the U-Turn, it should be Toxiced anyways because eventually Zapdos outheals Rock Slide. Rhydon can click Earthquake more because higher damage, but as I've said earlier, two 100 Base EQs is a lot stronger then one 130 Base EQ.

One other thing is that 90% of the time you have a Rhydon if Zapdos comes in, it is going to U-Turn out and send in their answer to their Rhydon. Again, Dugtrio limits the choices your opponent has by vitrue of its speed. It does occasionally open the option of Melmetal since it won't as eaily beat it but I am more then happy usually to take the trade of Melmetal HP for Dugtrio's life because then Aero is going to seriously ruin that team every time it comes in. The effective gain off of that exchange is you got 25% on Zapdos (not nothing, I'm aware) and you took chip yourself and lost tempo. Because mons like Vaporeon can be hard to switch into a lot of the time, this is a massive issue because it forces your switch out. Zapdos can do the same thing to Dugtrio (honestly maybe it SHOULD BE doing it more often instead of trying to Reflect, Roost and U-Turn out), but it seems less likely to because it is trying to get the Reflect up to make it a non-threat

And finally, I would like to pose the "what if your opponent doesn't bring Zapdos?" question. What is Rhydon going to do without a Zapdos around? Sure it is rare, but its not unheard of and if you are asking me, not even that bad to be dropping the Pokemon that is weak to Stealth Rocks and has 3/4s of all teams packing a hard answer to you, not including the teams that drop these two grounds to go for Jolteon. What is Rhydon going to do for you in this scenerio when you don't have an easy response? Are you going to lead it and try to force pressure without Early Stealth Rocks while potentially giving your opponent the ability to start theirs? Are you going to switch it in on Jolteon? A job that it does about once and doesn't do at all if it gets Dropped by Shadow Ball, Yawned, Subbed on or might just let your opponent take the hit, Reflect up, and limit your options for the revenge kill? Dugtrio will almost always be able to do SOMETHING in this scenerio, whereas Rhydon won't. This may seem like a minor thing, but it is happening more and more and soon might be more of a problem. Dugtrio, assuming played right, will always do something whether there is a Zapdos around or not. Rhydon will indeputably do something if Zapdos is around, but it won't always do it if it isn't.

Everything else I see as why Dugtrio is the better Pokemon is just related to the comparison up above (these last few paragraphs have admiteddly been mostly regurgitation anyways). I want to round this off by once again highlighting that Rhydon is a perfectly viable Pokemon and can do some things that Dugtrio can't and will do the main function just as well. I just think after that function, it falls short in the ways LGPE plays now and the way that LGPE may be played in the future, and that taking the Beedrill hit is as a realistic a benefit as Vaporeon being able to fight Aerodactyl 1v1; in practice I believe neither will actually occur as a relevant advantage.

Anyways that's all I got, remember everybody to click Mew SR Turn1, Alolan-Exeggutor is a terrible Pokemon that should never be used, and Charizard-X is even worse.

 

[Samu77]

So I realized with all of this that I've never actually given my thoughts on the entirety of the metagame in a comprehensive manner before, and that given the PL and other factors I feel it would be good to do that. Despite it being almost all against Maris I was actually been playing more OU then ever in this tour. So I feel as if I've actually got a pretty good handle on it now because my games were extremely dense unlike a regular OU tour since they were playing at the top level of OU.

First of all, tier list/viability ranking??? Basically a "you should be using these Pokemon" and more importantly "you shouldn't be using these guys" because I think that's been more of a factor as of late to what people have been bringing. I think this is good for people who, quite frankly, aren't just new at the tier but are bringing tools outside of the "should be using" section, because in all honesty, I'm not seeing a lot of people winning against the people who really know what they are doing. I'm not saying this to stifle innovation, but between all of the Alolan-Exeggutors, the Nido's and the Poliwrath's, I think a lot of people are missing the forest for the trees.

And now if you care about my own personal thoughts, though I don't know why you would, here they are. The video clarifies my exact thought processes on the Pokemon in the meta right now so if you want the true breakdown there it is. I'm also going to talk in absolutes because it's easier for me to and gets my point across faster, but I want to be clear I'm not trying to immediately shut down people who have other thoughts about the tier. Inviting discussion on the matter of what might be seen as oppressive is important because I find the metagame getting stagnant and more people could probably do with a different meta instead of clicking EQ with Aerodactyl.

For what we have available and the 10 mons I think can actually help win the game, I think this is a good list for people who value the game more then the teambuiler (me). I think having only 2 viable mega's might really turn off a lot of other players and I totally get that. That said, we have a reliability mega in Aero and a more off the wall mega in Beedrill that, while yes, is still kind of oppressive and easy by comparison, it's a lot harder to get an experienced player with Beedrill. I will say that of all of the Pokemon in the tier right now, if you were to put a gun to my head and say "which Pokemon needs to get banned the most?" I would say both of the fast mega's. I personally am not the type of person to value having multiple viable mega's in the tier, because I'd rather the decider between the two players facing off come down to who is playing better, not the one who is loading the better team into the other. Both require skill of course, but it is my preference to the former, and I actually think this is something the current OU is really good at. I don't particularly value Mega Blastoise being in the meta because it's simply not very interesting and I think it's time honestly is just over, and its issues go far beyond Vaporeon just walling it, which I mentioned in the video. That said, if you are going to ban Beedrill, ban Aero too. If you are going to remove a fast revenge killer from the game, remove both of them.

I think it's good that Zapdos is being seen as worse and worse, and it wasn't just me but other members of my team noting this. Zapdos has been a lazy Pokemon for far too long now and it's more interesting seeing it become niche then seeing it Reflect on Melm and U-Turn when there's a Rhydon around.

On the idea of Vaporeon being too good. Venu exists, Jolteon exists and is better than ever, a lot of other things are faster, and it provides good stability against the oppressiveness of Aero. I still am adamant that this is a very good Pokemon for the meta and it's only a problem if you are building a team weak to it, you putting Dugtrio on your team instead of Rhydon is going to go a long ways towards handling it, trust me.

On the idea of Jolteon being too good: I think this Pokemon is kind of lazy in the same way some people think Vaporeon is pretty lazy. It checks Zapdos and puts another Pokemon on the list from your opponent as to what is annoying as hell to switch into, and the checks it has get annihilated by Mew (Venusaur, Nidoqueen) or aren't realistic (Snorlax). The only reason it isn’t some tier overlord is that we have revenge killers, but there is no denying the speed tier and damage is a lot for what the tier is. Now the reason I wouldn't say it should be banned is because you should always have a revenge killer in Aero or Bee, if you don't have one you are throwing in teambuilder, so it can be handled to an extent. Whether you think this is healthy for the metagame is up to you.

Lastly on the idea of sleep, I've mentioned this before but banning sleep is very stupid. I think giving your opponent a spot to click Yawn safely with Jolteon is your fault (not to say you being caught on Yawn was a mistake in your line, to clarify, its just sometimes the position you are in and you guessed wrong) and its especially your fault if it happened with Vaporeon given the speed tier. I will say the fact that Venu gets Sleep Powder is ironically one of the reasons I think Yawn is okay because if it clicks it on Vaporeon you can trade Sleep for sleep (albeit with a disadvantage for the Venu player, but the line is safer assuming you hit and its reasonable) and I think that Venu also blocks the Sleep Powder adds more layers to the mindless Sleep Powder.

Alright I'm old and need to stop playing this game. The majority of this was written and recorded after my last game and since then I've been trying to distance myself from these kinds of activities, but figured I should post this anyway in case the current OU needs a bit more meta pushing. I don't plan on doing anything in relation to any of this kind of stuff anyways, though I've said that before so my words are likely pointless. You all have fun or whatever you guys do with this tier, since I've been playing it for the wrong reasons and need to stop.