Liepard Suspect Discussion (Read post #202)

[Raseri]

Alright, I guess it's time I give you guys some more updates on how this is going to work. The deadline for laddering will be Tuesday, October 22nd. Two weeks from today. If you have not sent me your laddering requirements by midnight MST on the 22nd, you will not be able to vote. This gives you plenty of time to ladder, enjoy XY, and form an informed opinion on the suspects.

There were some people asking me questions, so I want to make this clear. Getting the ladder requirements does not guarantee you a vote. You need to supplement it with great, logical posting in this thread. If you make stupid posts here, but get requirements, you won't be voting.

Finally, here are the choices that you will be voting on if chosen:

• Ban Liepard
• Ban Assist
• Ban Assist + Prankster
• Do not ban anything.

These will be the options. Nothing more, nothing less. A vote similar to the RU hail one will be held. Thanks everyone, and please try to keep discussion civil and intelligent.

 

[Hot N Cold]

Liepard isnt entire broken of course, no doubts. Swagger is annoying but really depends on luck and have no chance against stuff like Lickilicky or regen mons; while that Assist depends more on matchup.

Ban Assist + Prankster or just Ban Liepard to no go with complex ban, I suppose. Depends in this case if you support complex ban or not, or if you think that Purrloin strategy deserved be banned too.

Assist like a whole thing isnt broken, is just this strategy around Prankster imo

 

[ryan]

Yeah, I agree with Hot N Cold. I'd hate to see Liepard banned over this shit (like I would hate it sooo much), but I understand the logic behind it. Even so, I do still think Purrloin is effective enough with this strategy to ban Assist + Prankster.

Banning Assist doesn't really cut it because there are a lot more ways to beat this strategy without priority on Assist which make it overall far less effective. Even Scarf Assist isn't as reliable because you don't get any incentive against weaker defensive Pokemon or sleeping Pokemon or anything like that, and all priority outspeeds it.

I also don't think that not banning anything is a good option because while this strategy might be fairly matchup reliant, the fact that it pretty much wins 100% of the time versus certain teams is definitely not something that should be ignored. For some teams, the only way to beat this strategy is to use pretty unviable sets that make your team inferior to everything else or to use no hazards which—again—makes your team inferior against everything else.

I've already posted in more detail on why I think we should ban Prankster + Assist over Liepard itself, so if you're wondering my stance on that, check it out a couple pages back.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Alright, so I'm going to give my reasoning on why Assist alone should not be banned: Assist on its own is not broken nor unviable. The Assist Persian that tennisace used is a perfect example: it isn't broken because it can be played around and gets beaten by priority and fast scarfers, which are things commonly seen on teams. At the same time, it isn't unviable either, because with a good team matchup, Persian can easily beat teams as well, and at the same time use the residual damage to weaken the opponent enough to stall it out or sweep with Ditto. Although it is much harder to pull off and oftentimes not worth it, it still isn't unviable and imo if something that is usable and not broken is removed due to a blanket ban involving something else, doesn't really make sense

Meanwhile outright banning Liepard doesn't make sense either because its other sets are pretty good and if we do that, Purrloin will start showing up. And we already know Do Not Ban isn't an option.

 

[Golemman]

Sorry but SwagPard is not the reason we are suspecting Liepard. We are mostly planning on banning assist shuffle. (read through the rest of the thread for more info)

Gotcha. Assist+prankster is an extremely good strategy, but once Liepard is defeated the rest of the team is stuck with their rather poor unassistable moves. Hm. I will still have to say that banning is certain move+ability combo is odd but I am not against it at all. Liepard doesn't need banning though.

 

[Lolk]

Keep in mind that even assist Persian severely trolls stall teams as they have at least two mons with hazards (sometimes 3) and must have magic coat to stand a chance. While offensive teams now stand a chance, stall playstyles will still severely hurt if assist persian becomes a thing.

 

[atomicllamas]

Keep in mind that even assist Persian severely trolls stall teams as they have at least two mons with hazards (sometimes 3) and must have magic coat to stand a chance. While offensive teams now stand a chance, stall playstyles will still severely hurt if assist persian becomes a thing.

I'd just like to point out that stall teams tend to carry 2 regenerator mons, a rock resist with leftovers (Bastiodon, which also carries magic coat), and many mons with protect (to waste assist pp). The only stall staples that are screwed by this are Roselia and Misdreavus but these teams can't have spinners anyways. If anything stall has very little trouble with assist teams as they should be using magic coat Bastiodon.

 

[Moose V]

The point of my argument is to identify what you're targeting. Liepard isn't the only one to use T-Wave SwagPlay, other Pokemon can do it too (most notably Murkrow, which is likely what you'll be targeting next if SwagPlay Pard somehow does get the boot, making the ban moot). Are you looking to ban SwagPlay Liepard or parafusion in general? Froslass was banned because it almost always did its job, like 90% of the time in the hands of a remotely decent player: she can spinblock her own Spikes, Taunt Foresighters, and Destiny Bond opponents to KO them and send in something threatening to said spinner to deny the spin & keep the hazards around longer (the fast, offensive version of a "slow Volt Switch"). SwagPlay Liepard has less than a 50% success rate on the first turn (except against opponents who only have / are locked into Psychic) and is likely to get crippled because of it, and you want this banned because...?

Also, Prankster + Assist ban is really the way to go: Liepard is only especially potent because of priority Whirlwinds, and is really crippled without it, especially since numerous Pokemon can outspeed it (and that's without Scarf) and can be sniped down by priority which absolutely wrecks its pitiful defenses. Well-built teams usually have one or both of these, so Assist + Whirlwind without Prankster can help to single out the victims who do not have either, while flopping completely for the most part against the better teams (making it less effective than Riolu as a whole :D), making this strategy not broken or unhealthy for the meta.

Ik other pokemon are obviously capable of swagger shenanigans and there probably shouldn't be a ban on other pokes who use this strategy. The qualm I have with this, however, is that it adds nothing to the metagame and in fact I think we can agree hax based sets have a negative impact on NU even if they aren't broken. For the purpose of this argument let's assume Prankster + Assist is broken but my overall question is if one part of a pokemon is broken and the other part a hindrance to the metagame, why not ban the entire poke? You lose pretty much nothing as even the other roles Liepard can fill (pursuit trapper, weather setter) are done just as well by other pokes in the tier in the first place.

I agree assist + whirlwind shouldn't be banned without prankster. Purugly and Persian are shut down pretty easily by well made teams.

 

[Fuzznip]

For the purpose of this argument let's assume Prankster + Assist is broken but my overall question is if one part of a pokemon is broken and the other part a hindrance to the metagame, why not ban the entire poke? You lose pretty much nothing as even the other roles Liepard can fill (pursuit trapper, weather setter) are done just as well by other pokes in the tier in the first place.

We're not supposed to be banning things because they are a hindrance to the metagame. We ban things because they are broken. By that logic, maybe we should ban DynamicPunch Golurk, parafusion Regigigas, or Poison Touch Muk because hax is part of their respective playstyles. Are their sets broken, however? Not even close! There is only one aspect of Liepard that arguably makes it broken, and that is only the uncompetitive combination of Assist + Prankster. Banning Liepard as a whole due one uncompetitive set it can run is ridiculous. Also, I don't know why you think we lose nothing if Liepard is banned from NU. We are losing a strong offensive pivot, capable of shutting down boosting sweepers with Prankster Encore and Taunt, crippling either offensive or defensive threats with Prankster Thunder Wave and Toxic (Taunt as well for the defensive mons), maintaining offensive momentum via U-turn due to the switches it typically forces, and checking Jynx (one of the best sweepers in the tier) that Skuntank has a harder time pulling off. That fast Foul Play is also really useful and hits things that even resist it pretty hard (Sawk? Primeape?).

Liepard's a perfectly viable and useful Pokemon that doesn't deserve to be wiped off the face of NU because of the uncompetitive set it can run, which can simply be neutralized with a complex ban in Assist + Prankster.

 

[atomicllamas]

Okay, so I finally ran into some good people on the ladder using the purrloin assist team (Shout out too Sidfrid and Shuckleking87 ). They wrecked me due to the fact that they both knew what was happening. Shuckleking87 frankly outplayed me, but I auto lost to Sidfrid, cause his SR setter was Probopass who could V-switch to his taunt Sawk, so yeah, that was an impossible team match up. Just wanted to point out that assist teams are by no means unbeatable (annoying as fuck, but not unbeatable) and that as I have been saying since page two, Probopass and Seismitoad are perfectly legitimate options to prevent SR being set up. With Purrloin team, the only difference is that I auto lost to Sidfrid's team, cause even though he had a Mushy the most I could do was toxic something after setting up a sub instead of Nasty Plot or dark pulse it.

I am not sure how I will end up voting (assuming I get to vote, lol) but I am leaning towards a Prankster + Assist ban cause it takes battle "skill" completely out of it and makes it completely match up reliant. I am not going to vote ban assist, cause even like assist Persian isn't broken unless you are an absolute shit player, and assist could have some cool other purposes that I would prefer to allow (like v-create spam in higher tiers). Ban Liepard and do not ban are definitely options worth considering though, as much as you say only one Liepard set is broken, it only needs one broken set to be banned (I don't know if I am articulating this thought very well but w/e). Do not ban is an option, as even a standard team can beat a Liepard assist team if it has the right structure and isn't played really stupidly, its just annoying that Liepard can dictate that all teams follow one or two structures unless they want to get auto-wrecked by a developing playstyle. Idk, right now my opinion is Ban Assist + Prankster>Ban Liepard>Do not ban>Ban assist, this is totally open to change based on this thread, but that is how I stand as of right now, with only ban assist being in a clear last place.

 

[Lolk]

I'd just like to point out that stall teams tend to carry 2 regenerator mons, a rock resist with leftovers (Bastiodon, which also carries magic coat), and many mons with protect (to waste assist pp). The only stall staples that are screwed by this are Roselia and Misdreavus but these teams can't have spinners anyways. If anything stall has very little trouble with assist teams as they should be using magic coat Bastiodon.

Fair point, but i still think the probable death of at least half the stall team is too broken. Yeah Pokemon with Regenerator or Steel-typing will survive to the end of the assist chain, but how those threats take care of staples on the assist team such as Arbok (ed: without a simple PP war)? Not every stall team can hold magic coat (and shouldn't have to). We need to fite to see how much damage an average stall team will take before they run out of assists.

 

[Bughouse]

Glad that we're going ahead with IRV options.

I agree that banning Liepard is really only a last resort, since Assist or Assist + Prankster are completely viable options. I think banning Liepard alone is likely to be effective at stopping the good roles that people want to preserve, while not actually avoiding much of the trolling, which Purrloin can continue. For that reason, I would put Ban Liepard last, even after Do Not Ban, in third. I understand that Purrloin could be dealt with later, but this still ignores the offensive pivot, team-support roles that Liepard plays and should be allowed to continue to play.

Personally, if I am given the opportunity to vote (already have battle reqs), I'd probably vote first to ban Assist alone. The reason for this is just to continue to avoid the Persian spam. Even if it's not nearly as good, it's still a noncompetitive strategy that will beat some stall teams. For me, even if it auto-wins only 1 matchup, it's a noncompetitive strategy. It's not dependent on rate of effectiveness but rather the fact that it takes all skill out of a match, relying only on team matchup in many cases.

NU isn't a parent tier; our decision here will not impact any other tiers, so we can afford to make the best decision for this tier alone. And "shits and giggles" is not a reason to keep Assist around. There is no reason to use Assist in NU aside from trolling with Roar/Whirlwind or Divecats. Any other uses are beyond rare in NU, if they even exist, and don't merit preservation. If the complex ban actually accomplished the job any better, I'd go with the complex ban, but it doesn't, so I'd prefer just Assist to Assist + Prankster.


(basically for me to vote Assist + Prankster rather than just Assist, I'd need proof that Assist can be used remotely viably by something other than Liepard/Purrloin in a new, competitive way that merits preservation other than "shits and giggles.")

EDIT: and since Prankster + Whirlwind isn't a ban option, I don't have a reason to continue to try to get a good match with divecats. Thank god. I was going mad.

 

[Blast]

Just a thought for everyone talking about SwagPard: if we were suspecting Liepard because of Swagger, don't you think we would have done that MONTHS ago? -.-

Anyway, banning Assist + Prankster is definitely the way to go here imo. Assist on its own is definitely not broken, and neither is Liepard. Assist is probably one of the last things I'd vote to be banned: it is completely useless outside of a scant few incredibly select moves, and requires entire teams (involving movesets with random / bad moves on them) to be built around it in order to work. Liepard, outside of this one particular set, is not broken in any way whatsoever and is honestly a great addition to the metagame with various support options for its teammates such as Encore and U-turn. However, it's the COMBINATION of these two that makes this strategy arguably so broken. As we could see from tennis's replays, Assist Persian was significantly easier to deal with than Liepard due to the fact that without Prankster, Persian could be outsped and viably dealt with by any well-built team. As a result, it's only natural to say that without Prankster, it would be the same case with Liepard. However, due to the COMBINATION of Prankster and Assist, Liepard becomes incredibly difficult to deal with. Therefore, the best route to take would be the complex ban.

 

[ADHLAS]

Hmm, haven't joined in myself even if I lurk in every competitive subforum there is. Anyways, I've only faced one Assist/Shuffling team which I then horrendously lost against just because I had no idea what it was until too late. (I even had a counter to it; Golurk denies his own rocks to Ditto with Shadow Punch Q.Q.) However, I've watched the replays, and yeah, something obviously needs to be done.

Liepard is definitely not bannable by itself; others have already clearly stated the strength of the pivot set. I'll disagree with Atomicllamas on this point. There's no real reason to ban an entire Pokémon when we can surgically ban just the broken aspect of it. Same way that Gorebyss/Huntail and lolClamperl weren't banned in RU, but rather just the combination that made it broken (SmashPass.) I'm of the opinion that bans should be as lenient as possible, taking out the broken and only the broken elements out of the opinion, so a Liepard ban is right out.

No-ban just... isn't an option. This thing is far too restrictive to the metagame, and is by far one of the most uncompetitive strategies I've ever witnessed. Probably the only thing worse I've seen is those Slowbro@Leppa Berry shenanigans, but I digress.

I'd also be against banning just Assist. Yeah, it has no competitive value whatsoever outside of this broken strategy. Neither does Acupressure, Defense Curl, Growl, or whatever. IMO, if people want to lose by using a bad move, I'm not stopping them. Just like I wouldn't stopping players from using Giga Impact. Free wins are free.

So yeah, I'll be giving my vote for Assist + Prankster if I get a chance to vote. This really seems to be one of the better complex bans I've seen, utterly cutting off the broken element/strategy without affecting anyone else negatively.

 

[Moose V]

We're not supposed to be banning things because they are a hindrance to the metagame. We ban things because they are broken. By that logic, maybe we should ban DynamicPunch Golurk, parafusion Regigigas, or Poison Touch Muk because hax is part of their respective playstyles. Are their sets broken, however? Not even close! There is only one aspect of Liepard that arguably makes it broken, and that is only the uncompetitive combination of Assist + Prankster. Banning Liepard as a whole due one uncompetitive set it can run is ridiculous. Also, I don't know why you think we lose nothing if Liepard is banned from NU. We are losing a strong offensive pivot, capable of shutting down boosting sweepers with Prankster Encore and Taunt, crippling either offensive or defensive threats with Prankster Thunder Wave and Toxic (Taunt as well for the defensive mons), maintaining offensive momentum via U-turn due to the switches it typically forces, and checking Jynx (one of the best sweepers in the tier) that Skuntank has a harder time pulling off. That fast Foul Play is also really useful and hits things that even resist it pretty hard (Sawk? Primeape?).

Liepard's a perfectly viable and useful Pokemon that doesn't deserve to be wiped off the face of NU because of the uncompetitive set it can run, which can simply be neutralized with a complex ban in Assist + Prankster.

This brings into question the idea of banning an aspect of a pokemon rather than a pokemon itself. I suppose this is what bothers me. To me, it would be like saying Froslass would be alright in UU but it's broken because of destiny bond + spikes (if you haven't figured it out already I'm mainly a UU player) so just this combination is banned. I guess what I'm asking is for someone to explain exactly what the difference is between these two scenarios.

 

[Fusxfaranto]

This brings into question the idea of banning an aspect of a pokemon rather than a pokemon itself. I suppose this is what bothers me. To me, it would be like saying Froslass would be alright in UU but it's broken because of destiny bond + spikes (if you haven't figured it out already I'm mainly a UU player) so just this combination is banned. I guess what I'm asking is for someone to explain exactly what the difference is between these two scenarios.

Okay it seems like a fair number of people aren't quite seeing the logic behind this. For me at least, it's not that this "pushes liepard over the edge" or some bullshit like that, it's that Assist (especially with Prankster) literally breaks the game. Almost every move with priority is balanced around priority. Priority attacks would be shit without priority, as would Protect, Magic Coat, etc. But the main moves in question are obviously phazing moves. Gamefreak had the foresight to make assist not work with Dragon Tail and Circle Throw, but I suppose they forgot about hazards (they are nonexistent in VGC after all) and didn't realize the strength of a setup sweeper that can force matchups, so they let Roar and Whirlwind get picked by Assist. It's pretty clear to me that this is not how things should work! Were this a card game or tabletop game, this kind of exploit would have been errata'd long ago. But we can't patch the rules of the game, so a ban has to suffice.

 

[Fuzznip]

This brings into question the idea of banning an aspect of a pokemon rather than a pokemon itself. I suppose this is what bothers me. To me, it would be like saying Froslass would be alright in UU but it's broken because of destiny bond + spikes (if you haven't figured it out already I'm mainly a UU player) so just this combination is banned. I guess what I'm asking is for someone to explain exactly what the difference is between these two scenarios.

I think it's a different case here because we're dealing with Liepard being arguably broken for uncompetitive reasons, so banning it as a whole is ludicrous, as its actual competitive sets are perfectly acceptable and it's a simple fix to prevent that uncompetitive aspect from being exercised. In your Froslass example, Spikes + Destiny Bond is a competitive combination and literally the only way it's used as for as I know, and if that makes Froslass broken, then so be it. I don't see any sense in banning Liepard solely because it can reliably execute an uncompetitive tactic. If I'm not mistaken, things get banned because they're just too good from a competitive standpoint, as we've seen with Speed Boost Blaziken, Tail Glow Manaphy, Spikes Froslass, etc.

 

[OversizeD]

I wonder why Liepard even needs to be tested. The Parafusion set was relying on hax, this assist Whirlwind combo rely's on rage quits. Eventho I beat this team several times, I still ask my self how I did that.

My question is: What are the biggest counters to this team? Because I don't think it has any besides Natu, which gets OHKO's by Dark Pulse anyways.
I understand that it's hard to make an effective NU team, and when you find one it's a shame it contains Liepard. Liepard should be BL2 or Ubers lol.

Hope it gets banned soon. This thing is ridicilous.

 

[Shuckleking87]

So I've at least 4, but I think 5 teams that had either liepard (3) or purrloin (2), and I'm 4-1 (lost to some dick name azusa azuki). My team consists of no priority, no protects, no regenerator pokes, no magic guard pokes, I carry all hazards (so ditto has no problems), 1 poke is extremely susceptible to liepard (cm musharna, though just placing signal beam like a couple stages ago isn't the end of the world), two pokes weak to stealth rocks and 5 pokes are hit by spikes. So how can I win? Uh, by knowing exactly what they are going to do. For these teams, you essentially have to use the 6 pokes FLCL used in his team to be successful (Atomicllamas had a slight variation but I knew the purpose of each poke). So when I see this team, I know what pokes I want to get rid of first (usually arbok, so I can get up t-spikes), and what pokes the opponents want me to use. Therefore I can play around what he wants me to do because I know what he wants to do (get hazards up, and that probably wasn't well worded). So is the "liepard spam team" really at an advantage when I know exactly what moves he has to make to win? I am not sure about that.

However, I understand that the perception that using this strategy really does not require "much skill" (I think it definitely does as that azusa azuki guy knew what he was doing) in order to be successful. The fact that liepard can freely whirlwind pokes without much response from the opposition is extremely annoying and frustrating. At least with riolu you have the opportunity to attack first. For both riolu and purrlion, priority makes their tactic much more manageable, and most teams should imo have 1-2 sources of priority ( it is crazy to think I thought riolu should have been suspected, but that is nothing in comparison). That being said, I think, if I get the right to vote (I guess I have to level up my slakoth to level 18 in order to do so), I would probably vote for Banning Liepard (yes no more swagcat). But seriously, if you want to use persian or purrlion, go right ahead. I would rather face those teams than a normal team because of the so many restrictions. For liepard, it has the ability to sub up and dark pulse potential threats (like magic guard pokes that are all psychic, priority users that purrlion would most likely die to unless it has eviolite, last poke poison, steels somewhat (though I've set up on +6 liepard with my last standing klang, and shift gear to avoid flinching)). Purrlion has no chance to do that, while persian would either have to be choice scarfed to be fast enough to spam and have no attacking options, or be too slow to phase effectively. Yeah, I know not having any other function of liepard really stinks (cannot use on my paraflinch team), but I do not think that any pokes is close to being broken with the whirlwind spam than liepard, therefore, it should be the only poke banned.

Also, how do I get the stupid slakoth off my profile image and get my question mark back?

 

[Golemman]

My question is: What are the biggest counters to this team? Because I don't think it has any besides Natu, which gets OHKO's by Dark Pulse anyways.
I understand that it's hard to make an effective NU team, and when you find one it's a shame it contains Liepard. Liepard should be BL2 or Ubers lol.

Hope it gets banned soon. This thing is ridicilous.

One of the most common ways to stop Liepard (not necessarily a counter) is through the use of toxic spikes. They severely limit its potential, allowing only about 7 turns of phasing (idk actual number with leftovers recovery). This is what I used to defend myself. You also have to have a way to eliminate any poisons they have on their team and a a spin blocker. Golurk is pretty much both bar skuntank and vileplume who can easily defeat him. Offensive metang with eq and zen headbutt, respectively, takes care of them.

 

[OversizeD]

Liepard is one of the most annoying Pokémon in NU. And trust me, I play NU every day. Liepard is not the problem... I mean it's frail doesn't have amazing HP either. But the ability and speed is what is annoying. This newest team with Assist Whirlwind is just making it impossible to kill. You have to luck out with Crit Mach Punch as example. Or have Belly Drum Linoone set up to Ohko it with Extremespeed.

I mean Liepard is not hard to OHKO. But some sets for it make it impossible. But why only banning Liepard from NU? There are way more that should get out of it like; Zangoose, Ludicolo, Swoobat, Jynx, Gorebyss etc...

Anyways without going of subject...

Please! Ban Liepard... I would ask you on my knees even. Liepard is broken ashell. Having priority on non damaging moves is just a pain in the ass. But if Liepard DOES get banned... does that mean Purrloin, Murkrow and Thundurus get banned aswell? They get the same moveset and 2 of these are usable in NU.

 

[Punchshroom]

One of the most common ways to stop Liepard (not necessarily a counter) is through the use of toxic spikes. They severely limit its potential, allowing only about 7 turns of phasing (idk actual number with leftovers recovery). This is what I used to defend myself. You also have to have a way to eliminate any poisons they have on their team and a a spin blocker. Golurk is pretty much both bar skuntank and vileplume who can easily defeat him. Offensive metang with eq and zen headbutt, respectively, takes care of them.

Assuming you somehow get Toxic Spikes down in the face of ShufflePard, how are you going to force it out? The opponent can use ShufflePard to bring out something that cannot hurt Arbok, then bring it in to absorb Toxic Spikes....assuming it even needs Toxic Spikes gone at some point. It is this kind of control ShufflePard has on the match that makes it broken. Phazing moves were never meant to go first this easily, because even Riolu needs that free turn and is still slow enough to be outsped by faster priority.

It is a good method against SwagPard, but Poison-types make good teammates regardless due to them resisting its weaknesses.

 

[Moose V]

I think most of us agree that Liepard's whirlwind shenanigans are a serious problem at this point.

The next question is, does anything else using a similar strategy appear broken? The logical next poke in question would (after purrloin ofc) be riolu which has been discussed a bit. While Riolu is stopped perhaps a bit more easily (protect, faster priority etc.), it doesn't require a team full of zombie pokemon to work. This brings into question a strategy I've been thinking about:

Has anyone ever tried Riolu + Gothorita? It seems Goth would do a pretty damn good job of trapping anything that could use protect/priority and riolu could pretty much sweep from there. Goth can also trap and toxic suction cups Cradily to death as well as as regenerator pokes like alomomola and tangela. I haven't had time to try this out yet but this strategy seems pretty hard to beat on the surface.

 

[Lasagne]

I'm going to discuss my thoughts on each option we have for voting (will probably be fairly short)

• Ban Liepard

the downsides of this option have been stated so many times, there's not much point in me going over them myself. however i will state them nonetheless. liepard itself is not broken. this is a fact; only the assist phazing set is uncompetitive, and not healthy for the metagame. swagpard is easy to deal with and relies purely on hax. pivotpard is actually healthy for the metagame as it keeps many of the tiers top threats in check, such as jynx, golurk and musharna. it also deals with setup sweepers well with a priority encore and pursuit to trap them when trying to switch out. banning liepard also leaves persian and purrloin available to use assist shenanigans, and both are decently effective as tennisace as proved. however, the fact remains that liepard is the most effective way to use the strategy, so in my opinion, it would be ok if it was banned (thought thats really not what i and most people want)

• Ban Assist

at first i thought this was the best option to use. thinking on it, however, it is clear this is definitely not the best option. a move should only be banned if it is broken on all users of it. eg moody was broken on everything so it was banned. assist is certainly not broken on stuff like drowzee, so it definitely shouldnt be banned, and hopefully wont be

• Ban Assist + Prankster

in my opinion the best choice. by doing this you stop the strategy from working without resorting to persian, and while that can work decently, we all know its not on the same level as either liepard or purrloin. by picking this we stop the strategy from working efficiently, and therefore it no longer becomes a problem, or at least it becomes one that is more easily dealt with (priority is a big issue with persian). definitely what ill pick if i get chosen to vote

• Do not ban anything

clearly this cant happen. we cant let this strategy stay as it is, because it is uncompetitive and beats the majority of teams at team matchup, which is just plain bad for the metagame. something has to be done, so this option is not actually an option for someone who wants to keep nu as a balanced metagame

the overall order for me is assist+prankster>liepard>assist>nothing

also, i had a battle with punchshroom earlier in which i used a stall team which should have lost to his assistpard team. it even had riolu in it, so surely i was screwed. he managed to get 2 layers of spikes and stealth rock down, but i managed to predict well at one point and toxiced his liepard towards the end of the game while alomomola died to black sludge damage. i thought i was still going to lose. i had a scarf metang and audino, while he still had shiftry, low health toxiced drifblim and riolu. however, i pulled back and won. this just goes to show that assistpard teams arent impossible to beat, even if it seems you lose at team matchup, because sometimes you can pull a win out of the bag if you play correctly. it also helps knowing all the sets on the opponents team when they use the team (tho punch changed up some of the sets a bit which caught me off guard). the replay is here: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nucurrent-55556200

yes im sort of using evioliters, even though i made the team by myself. it just developed and became evioliters cos that was how it worked best
shut up

 

[ryan]

However, I understand that the perception that using this strategy really does not require "much skill" (I think it definitely does as that azusa azuki guy knew what he was doing) in order to be successful. The fact that liepard can freely whirlwind pokes without much response from the opposition is extremely annoying and frustrating. At least with riolu you have the opportunity to attack first. For both riolu and purrlion, priority makes their tactic much more manageable, and most teams should imo have 1-2 sources of priority ( it is crazy to think I thought riolu should have been suspected, but that is nothing in comparison). That being said, I think, if I get the right to vote (I guess I have to level up my slakoth to level 18 in order to do so), I would probably vote for Banning Liepard (yes no more swagcat). But seriously, if you want to use persian or purrlion, go right ahead. I would rather face those teams than a normal team because of the so many restrictions. For liepard, it has the ability to sub up and dark pulse potential threats (like magic guard pokes that are all psychic, priority users that purrlion would most likely die to unless it has eviolite, last poke poison, steels somewhat (though I've set up on +6 liepard with my last standing klang, and shift gear to avoid flinching)). Purrlion has no chance to do that, while persian would either have to be choice scarfed to be fast enough to spam and have no attacking options, or be too slow to phase effectively. Yeah, I know not having any other function of liepard really stinks (cannot use on my paraflinch team), but I do not think that any pokes is close to being broken with the whirlwind spam than liepard, therefore, it should be the only poke banned.

Also, how do I get the stupid slakoth off my profile image and get my question mark back?

Just because Liepard is more broken than those Pokemon are doesn't mean that they aren't a problem. I'd rather face Riolu than Assist Purrloin any day tbh. If you don't think that Purrloin is broken without comparing it to Liepard, then yeah, I get this. But keep in mind that Purrloin with Toxic / Protect / Substitute / Assist is still ridiculous, even if it does have a couple more checks.

Also set this as your avatar.

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