Lockdown (Now Playable!)

Heatran: A-

Great lead as it has Taunt, Stealth Rock and Sunny Day. Suffers against Rain, Sandstorm and to a lesser extent Trick Room, but on Sun teams it's great for its ability to check opposing Fire types.
I would disagree that he necessarily suffers against weather teams. Heatran fits well on bulky teams that should be running Trick Room in this meta. The idea isn't that you will use Trick Room in every match, but rather to use it to screw with opposing speed control. You see weather sweepers? Turn on Trick Room! Opponent sets Trick Room? Turn it off! Heatran is sitting comfortably in the middle between stuff that's fast and stuff that's slow, meaning that if you get the Trick Room setting you want it's actually in a pretty favorable position to be useful against both archetypes. Of course you still need to win that favorable Lockdown, but that's a central battle in this metagame and again Heatran helps there by checking or countering many common leads.

Oh, and I've got a Grassy Terrain team with Heatran on it that needs testing. I guess I've given away that I've got a Trick Room setter, but I don't think that should be too surprising in this meta anyways. I'll try to drop by the OM room tonight and tomorrow over lunch break (Pacific time here). Anyone who wants to have a lockdown match (my nickname on Showdown is Darvin3) give me a shout.
 
Heatran: A-

Great lead as it has Taunt, Stealth Rock and Sunny Day. Suffers against Rain, Sandstorm and to a lesser extent Trick Room, but on Sun teams it's great for its ability to check opposing Fire types.
I agreed with almost all ranks, but I disagree this one.
Heatran is good with potencial to break though Sun teams, except for Charizard Y who can carry Focus Blast or even Earthquake, and Heatran without SpA investment can't even OHKO it with Ancient Power and with a Calm nature, it may OHKO it with Stone Edge, still not really good, and Venusaur with Earthquake seems useful to hit some Fire types 2HKOing Heatran without Grassy Terrain and 3HKOing it with, may it doesn't seems impressive, but Heatran lacks reliable recovery, then any damage over 30% is bad. But about Rain and Sand teams, any threat can destroy it, as of Sandstorm and Trick Room, let's calc somethings. Otherwise, with as a good Taunt user, Stealth Rock and Sunny Day setter, it could be a good option, and can receive a halved EQ damage in Grassy Terrain, which is also good, but usually Ground type offensive pokémon.
Heatran to B+ or B in my opinion.
Sun
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran: 222-262 (57.5 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 302-359 (78.2 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 151-182 (39.1 - 47.1%) -- 85.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
Rain
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Rain: 458-540 (118.6 - 139.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran in Rain: 188-224 (48.7 - 58%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Rain: 447-530 (115.8 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sand
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 458-546 (118.6 - 141.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 232-276 (60.1 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
Trick Room
252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 364-432 (94.3 - 111.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 360-426 (93.2 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
176+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran: 636-748 (164.7 - 193.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Last edited:
I would disagree that he necessarily suffers against weather teams. Heatran fits well on bulky teams that should be running Trick Room in this meta. The idea isn't that you will use Trick Room in every match, but rather to use it to screw with opposing speed control. You see weather sweepers? Turn on Trick Room! Opponent sets Trick Room? Turn it off! Heatran is sitting comfortably in the middle between stuff that's fast and stuff that's slow, meaning that if you get the Trick Room setting you want it's actually in a pretty favorable position to be useful against both archetypes. Of course you still need to win that favorable Lockdown, but that's a central battle in this metagame and again Heatran helps there by checking or countering many common leads.

Oh, and I've got a Grassy Terrain team with Heatran on it that needs testing. I guess I've given away that I've got a Trick Room setter, but I don't think that should be too surprising in this meta anyways. I'll try to drop by the OM room tonight and tomorrow over lunch break (Pacific time here). Anyone who wants to have a lockdown match (my nickname on Showdown is Darvin3) give me a shout.
I'll come on this evening (my time) and see if I can catch you. Would you mind sharing your Grassy Terrain team so I can add it to the Sample Teams list?
 
I'll come on this evening (my time) and see if I can catch you. Would you mind sharing your Grassy Terrain team so I can add it to the Sample Teams list?
I absolutely intend to do so - after I've tested it and made any necessary adjustments :-)

I can shift my lunch break forward or back an hour, so hopefully that should make it a little easier to meet up.
 
On this note - if you want to kill CharY, run Stone Edge.
0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 292-344 (98.3 - 115.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Anyway Heatran seems better without a Rock move unless it is offensive, and its lack to reliable recovery is also a bad thing because, as Sun team check, it need to deal with damage and a Earthquake damage can really weaken it.
 
Bumpedy bump! Some more Pokémon to discuss for viability rankings:

Dragonite

Access to Extreme Speed helps it against Trick Rooms, it can set up Rain quite reliably thanks to Multiscale which it can abuse itself with perfectly accurate STAB Hurricane and Thunder and Focus Blast as coverage.

Escavalier

The slowest fully evolved Pokémon, also packs a punch. It needs Trick Room to truly shine, but inside a Trick Room it's very deadly. Megahorn / Iron Head / Drill Run have great coverage, and it can even use Swords Dance to give itself a huge boost. Only 1 weakness and great bulk help it even more.

Mew

Can set up Stealth Rock, any weather you want and Trick Room. Decent bulk, although typing is underwhelming.

Bisharp

An OU staple, here it's a solid Anti Trick Room Pokémon. STAB Iron Head and Knock Off can cripple or take out many Trick Room users, and it has STAB Sucker Punch to revenge kill some weakened Trick Room Pokémon.

Sylveon

Another Misty Terrain setter, although this one is more offensive than Aromatisse. Could work if you want an MT setter that can still dish out damage. It's also much faster than Aromatisse, although still slow.
 
Dragonite to B-: Yeah...I don't know, Special Dragonite never seems so useful, and in Rain Dragonite is more one Rain pokémon threaded by Abomasnow Mega's TR, but access to ESpeed seems really useful, as it can threat most interessting threats in meta, being able to put down most priority threats and play mind games against Bisharp if it is with low HP. Roost, Earthquake, Dragon Dance, Fire Punch, Outrage / Dragon Claw, Iron Head, Hurricane, Draco Meteor, Thunder, really useful, its main problem is its 4x Weak allowing Offensive Ice type threats like Mamoswine and KyuB ignore / break (respectively) Multiscale, but beside this, Lum Berry / Choice Band seems always useful and its Poll + Multiscale is really impressive. Speed Control is the main threat to the tier, ESpeed is good against this, but many bulky things can take an ESpeed like Swampert-Mega and 2HKO with Multiscale or OHKO it without full HP in return with Ice Punch (and Extreme Speed deals 47% max damage, and Rhyperior in Trick Room, that can use Rock Blast to avoid Multiscale and don't take almost nothing from ESpeed Band, turning it into a less reliable option, but still a useful priority abooser.
Escavalier to B+/B: Escavalier is a Trick Room hell sweeper, without Trick Room its just a slower Scizor without priorty, in it, is literally hell. Swords Dance / Pursuit, Drill Run / Knock Off, Megahorn and Iron Head hurts a lot and it can even use Choice Band to get massive damage. It speedties with Cameurpt-Mega, this is really interessting cuz it can 2HKO it with Drill Run without run Choice Band and with Band have a low chance to OHKO it without Stealth Rocks, and a really high chance to do it with the rocks.
Mew to B: Well...it's almost a less bulky and faster Cresselia, but with ability to use one of the best moves, Taunt. It can set any weather you want, Trick Room, Stealth Rock, and is an interessting option with a good 100/100/100 bulky that wins most setters in 1v1 thanks to Taunt (non-Taunt Whimsicott, any slower Hazard Setter, any non-Taunt Trick Room setter due to its negative priority, etc).
Bisharp to B/B-: Yeah...Bisharp is a interessting options, but it is defeated by any Fighting type move user in 1v1, in Trick Room is rekt by most non Psychic / Ghost type attacker. But is usually an awesome priority user, have access to Pursuit, Swords Dance, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Iron Head, Low Kick, etc.
Sylveon to C+: I don't know, it's just a more offensive Clefable, in OU most Sylveon's sets are outclassed by it. As Trick Room, due to the fact is slower than Aromatisse, isn't a so good Trick Room option, but still useful due to its good 110 base SpA, may be a useful Calm Mind / Specs user, but not a impressive thing.
 
Last edited:
Rain Dragonite is more one Rain pokémon threaded by Abomasnow Mega's TR
If your opponent manages to win both Weather and Trick Room you're in for trouble no matter how things are going down. That said, I do agree that Dragonite struggles with a bit too much. Sun shuts down his STAB, Hail implies a lot of Ice-type moves being thrown around which requires support, opposing Rain teams likely have swift swimmers with Ice coverage, his speed tier is deeply unfavorable under Trick Room. Given that, I think Choice Specs is probably the best item. Dragonite is going to be forced out relatively quickly, and you just want to come in on something you can check/counter and fire off the hardest-hitting move you can. Dragonite's physical set looks to be by far the more generally useful one. Priority can really help carry offensive teams when they can't beat their opponent's speed control. While some Trick Room pokemon like Abomasnow give it hell, others can't really do much to it. I'd say his standard Choice Band set looks best. Speed control in this meta makes it hard for Dragon Dance to reliably sweep, and there's way too much speed control that can force him out. Just hitting with banded moves looks like the best option.

Also I'm in the OM room right now and will be for the next hour. Give me a shout if you want a Lockdown match.
 
The team is intended primarily to be a bulky Grassy Terrain team that runs Trick Room as a backup strategy. Grassy Terrain and Trick Room have good synergy together, as both favor bulky pokemon with lots of HP investment. The team's speed tier sits firmly in mediocre territory, letting me outspeed conventional Trick Room by turning it off while still allowing me to make use of Trick Room against faster teams. This lets me mess with any team that relies on speed control, but without making my own team too reliant on it. In this game I identified setting Trick Room as far more important than setting Grassy Terrain, hence why I prioritized it. Against a team that doesn't utilize speed control, I would have prioritized bringing out Venusaur to set Grassy Terrain to get rid of my ground weakness and make my bulky team all the more annoying to break.

Anyways, I'll post the team since it seemed to work quite well. Only thing I'm thinking of changing is swapping Sludge Bomb for Scald on Volcanion. The limited PP on Steam Eruption worries me for longer matches, and I've got so many answers to grass- and fairy-types that I can't see myself using Sludge Bomb anyways.

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
- Soft-Boiled

Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Grassy Terrain
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis

Mew @ Mental Herb
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Explosion
- Defog
- Trick Room
- Taunt

Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Superpower
- Swords Dance

Volcanion @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Sludge Bomb
 
Last edited:
If your opponent manages to win both Weather and Trick Room you're in for trouble no matter how things are going down. That said, I do agree that Dragonite struggles with a bit too much. Sun shuts down his STAB, Hail implies a lot of Ice-type moves being thrown around which requires support, opposing Rain teams likely have swift swimmers with Ice coverage, his speed tier is deeply unfavorable under Trick Room. Given that, I think Choice Specs is probably the best item. Dragonite is going to be forced out relatively quickly, and you just want to come in on something you can check/counter and fire off the hardest-hitting move you can. Dragonite's physical set looks to be by far the more generally useful one. Priority can really help carry offensive teams when they can't beat their opponent's speed control. While some Trick Room pokemon like Abomasnow give it hell, others can't really do much to it. I'd say his standard Choice Band set looks best. Speed control in this meta makes it hard for Dragon Dance to reliably sweep, and there's way too much speed control that can force him out. Just hitting with banded moves looks like the best option.

Also I'm in the OM room right now and will be for the next hour. Give me a shout if you want a Lockdown match.
You are right, then Dragonite is a less viable pokémon and I'll do a B- nomination then, really is interessting to see Dragonite can have ESpeed to defeat Speed Control when weakened / if not bulky. It turns Dragonite and Dragonite is a interessting option against some teams, but not a really threat to put it into B+ or even in B I guess.
 
OK, so the OMotM nominations are coming up soon, I'd really like this meta to get a chance as metagames that change the battlefield don't get in very often (last one was Same Type Stealth Rock iirc). So..vote Lockdown I guess...please.

Also, I want to fill out the A rank sections of the VR, so are there any Pokémon you feel could be A+/A/A- Rank?
 
Last edited:
I'd say Trick Room setters need the most attention. Trick Room, in my opinion, belongs on virtually every single Lockdown team. It's comparable to Stealth Rock/Defog/Rapid Spin in the standard singles format in terms of just how influential it is on the flow of battle. To put it simply, the faster your team is the more you want to have the option to turn Trick Room off, and the slower your team is the more you want to have the option to turn it on. Many matches will be decided by who controls the Trick Room setting at the end of turn 6, and the fact that Trick Room is its own counter makes it all the more centralizing. Almost every conceivable team is made better by the inclusion of a Trick Room setter. In turn, that makes the Trick Room setters very important to the meta overall. In particular, Trick Room setters that have a favorable matchup against other common Trick Room setters deserve additional mention.

With that in mind, I'm going to go over some Trick Room setters that should be looked at, and some off-the-cuff ideas for where to put them in the VR. I won't mention Trick Room setters that are already ranked unless I disagree with their current ranking:

As a glass cannon, Alakazam hates Trick Room and despises this meta for making it so prevalent. However, having the move itself there is something to be said for using Alakazam as early game pressure with the option of counter-setting Trick Room if you see it. Alakazam does have some severe problems with its poor bulk and 4MSS. Overall, I'd say the fact that it hits hard, doesn't take up a mega slot, and can potentially turn off Trick Room if someone tries to pull that on you is a pretty good niche. C+

Absolutely superb movepools for suicide leads. Uxie and Mesprit are better for their bulk, but Azelf's massive explosions do have their appeal. B+ for Uxie and Mesprit, C+ for Azelf.

Obscenely slow and very bulky, Cofagrigus has historically suffered in standard format due to a lack of reliable recovery. In this meta, it has a great movepool for a lead, notably with Magic Coat, Imprison, Memento, and Destiny Bond. Imprison allows Cofagrigus to prevent opposing Trick Room users from setting or counter-setting while it remains on the field. Mental Herb, Aroma Veil, and Magic Bounce provide no protection against this. Magic Coat provides him with an option against opposing Taunt users and makes him more useful against hazard setters since he can play mind games with them. His biggest flaw is that he lacks Taunt and cannot Imprison that move. Overall, B+

As a magic bounce user, Diancie is as close to Taunt-proof as you can get (no Mold Breaker user can set Trick Room anyways) and has the bulk to live almost any Trick Room setter as it counter-sets on the following turn. This makes it an extremely good choice for offensive teams that are ready to put their mega slot behind stopping Trick Room. It presents all the same threats as it does in standard, plus it can do a whole bunch of field setup or counter-setup, including Gravity, Stealth Rock, Sandstorm, and Sunny Day. However, Diancie isn't perfect as it's OHKO'd by Bronzong's Gyro Ball and as a result cannot counter-set against it. On the other hand, Diancie only needs to run one moveslot to present a very effective counter-setter that also shuts down many hazard setters while presenting a massive offensive threat. You can easily run another slot to handle the few things Diancie can't, and your opponent has to tread carefully since there are so many different ways Diancie can cause him extreme amounts of pain. A+

While regular Diancie is by no means anywhere near the power of its mega, it's still pretty good. The fact that it can potentially bluff a mega stone is particularly useful, since most people won't risk Taunting it on the first turn. It's fairly slow and bulky and gets a great movepool. Overall, a great choice for any team that needs a nice setup option and can bluff their mega stone. B

Highly comparable to Cofagrigus! His big advantage over the other ghost is that he has access to the combination of Taunt, Imprison, and Trick Room. However, he does not have Magic Coat like Cofagrigus. This means a Mental Herb is completely non-negotiable to avoid being Taunt bait, and hazard setters have no problem setting up on him. Overall, Cofagrigus looks to be the superior but access to taunt on its own gives this guy a niche. B-

Magic Bounce and Trick Room without investing a mega slot looks promising, but that movepool and bulk leave a lot to be desired. D

Another offensive Trick Room setter that's comparable to Mega Alakazam in many respects. However, its fairy STAB is highly spammable so it has more room its movepool to run stuff like Taunt and Trick Room, but it suffers many of the same problems plus taking up your mega slot, and also struggles with Bronzong. C+

I have to disagree with his C- ranking. Gengar has the combination of a powerful Ghost STAB, Trick Room, and Taunt that make him a dangerous counter-lead. While he hates Trick Room, most setters are weak to his STABs and aren't strong enough to OHKO him with uninvested attacks. Combined with his offensive presence to scare off Taunt attempts and his ability to 2HKO almost every Trick Room setter, Gengar is not a bad option at all to specifically pressure opposing setters. C+

Jirachi is another offensive pokemon that can counter-set Trick Room. It's a bit bulkier than some of the other ones I've mentioned before this, and doesn't take up a mega slot, but it doesn't get Taunt or any other abilities (barring Tricking a Choice Scarf) that can mess with an opponent's setup. C+

Meowstic-M gets the combination of Prankster, Imprison, and Trick Room. Arguably the most reliable way to shut down an oppposing Trick Room setter. It can also run moves like Magic Coat to thwart opponents who want to set Hazards or try to Taunt it. However, it's pretty anemic otherwise and doesn't do a whole lot except buy turns until Lockdown while messing with the opponent. B.

Obscenely good support movepool, and your only option for certain combinations of role compression. While mono-psychic isn't the best typing and its bulk isn't that great, you're picking it for that awesome movepool. A-

Soundproof makes Mr. Mime immune to Taunt, and he's got a really nice movepool with a lot of options. Unfortunately, he has absolutely horrific physical bulk and is mostly outclassed by Aromatisse who also offers Taunt immunity with Trick Room. Many of Mr. Mime's best moves are shared by Aromatisse, including Misty Terrain and Magic Coat. The Mime's speed is much better, but not enough to distinguish it. Overall, its only real niche is that it can Baton Pass Nasty Plot or use Healing Wish to pivot once it has outlived its usefulness. C-

Another good defensive pokemon with Trick Room and Magic Coat to counter-lead with. While it's prediction-dependent, it can run Eviolite thanks to the ability to bounce Taunts if you're willing to play with fire. Overall not a terrible option if you just want something to stall out until Lockdown. C+

Basically everything I just said about P2; nice defensive pokemon that can buy some turns until Lockdown and turn off Trick Room while bouncing hazards. C+

Better movepool and bulk than Espeon, but extremely passive. If you want Magic Bounce on a Trick Room counter-setter, you should probably spring for Mega Diancie. C-
 
As a glass cannon, Alakazam hates Trick Room and despises this meta for making it so prevalent. However, having the move itself there is something to be said for using Alakazam as early game pressure with the option of counter-setting Trick Room if you see it. Alakazam does have some severe problems with its poor bulk and 4MSS. Overall, I'd say the fact that it hits hard, doesn't take up a mega slot, and can potentially turn off Trick Room if someone tries to pull that on you is a pretty good niche. C+

Absolutely superb movepools for suicide leads. Uxie and Mesprit are better for their bulk, but Azelf's massive explosions do have their appeal. B+ for Uxie and Mesprit, C+ for Azelf.

Soundproof makes Mr. Mime immune to Taunt, and he's got a really nice movepool with a lot of options. Unfortunately, he has absolutely horrific physical bulk and is mostly outclassed by Aromatisse who also offers Taunt immunity with Trick Room. Many of Mr. Mime's best moves are shared by Aromatisse, including Misty Terrain and Magic Coat. The Mime's speed is much better, but not enough to distinguish it. Overall, its only real niche is that it can Baton Pass Nasty Plot or use Healing Wish to pivot once it has outlived its usefulness. C-
Alakazam Mega probably is a useful threat due to its ability to Trace Swift Swim / Sand Rush and revenge kill these pokémon, probably Psychic, Focus Blast, Shadow Ball and Energy Ball (to OHKO Swampert-Mega, probably one awesome threat) or anything like this, maybe use Protect to get Trace safely, or you need to mega evolve it asap against Weather teams, anyway, is a good option to Alakazam-Mega, I hope B or B-. About Zam no Mega, its ability to Endure a hit with Sash without care about Hazards is awesome, it can be used to revenge kill or counter Trick Room and I agree with C+
About Uxie and Mesprit, I really think Azelf is a good option, with a Suicide Set, it is one of the fastest taunt users, have Explosion to break through walls. B+, otherwise, Uxie and Mesprit have a good movepool but aren't so good enough imo, B Rank. Mesprit still have Healing Wish and Uxie Memento, that's useful, but I think Azelf due to its Speed works best.
Soundproof doesn't makes Mr. Mime immune to Taunt, then probably Mr. Mime could not be ranked cuz is outclassed by Gardevoir as Psychic Trick Room Setter and by Aromatisse as multiple setter.
Agreed with the other ones, except by Xatu, it could be unranked in my opinion.
 
Keldeo to A-: Keldeo is a useful Rain Attacker. Scarf Keldeo's Water type moves will hit as strong as Specs Keldeo, but being really faster. And it can run Choice Specs, Choice Specs + Rain 2HKOes the entire meta, and it Speed Tier is not bad, also its Defenses are not so bad as many attackers.
Tornadus to A
: What can switch to Tornadus in Rain? Only some Defensive Pivots resisting Hurricane, aside this, it have Regenerator, is too damning fast and can 2HKO 90% of the meta, 90% of the entire meta, sounds an awesome threat to this Meta, and won't worry so much with Hazards, as Flying type is immune to Ground-type and hazards but Stealth Rock. With Regenerator Stealth Rock got 25% of HP and it restore 33% back, not so awful against Rocks like other Flying types.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mq
Alakazam Mega probably is a useful threat due to its ability to Trace Swift Swim / Sand Rush and revenge kill these pokémon, probably Psychic, Focus Blast, Shadow Ball and Energy Ball (to OHKO Swampert-Mega, probably one awesome threat) or anything like this, maybe use Protect to get Trace safely, or you need to mega evolve it asap against Weather teams, anyway, is a good option to Alakazam-Mega, I hope B or B-. About Zam no Mega, its ability to Endure a hit with Sash without care about Hazards is awesome, it can be used to revenge kill or counter Trick Room and I agree with C+
Good points on Tracing weather abilities. Mega Alakazam potentially can screw with every form of speed control in this meta, which is very nice.

About Uxie and Mesprit, I really think Azelf is a good option, with a Suicide Set, it is one of the fastest taunt users, have Explosion to break through walls. B+, otherwise, Uxie and Mesprit have a good movepool but aren't so good enough imo, B Rank. Mesprit still have Healing Wish and Uxie Memento, that's useful, but I think Azelf due to its Speed works best.
Perhaps I should have written a bit more about Azelf. Its problem is that it can't run both a Mental Herb and a Focus Sash. Without Focus Sash it gets OHKO'd by many offensive leads and forced out, but without a Mental Herb it gets shut down by Taunt users and forced out by those. This means it can struggle to do its job and needs more team support than the bulkier Uxie and Mesprit who can safely run a Mental Herb.

Soundproof doesn't makes Mr. Mime immune to Taunt, then probably Mr. Mime could not be ranked
I was sure Taunt was a sound-based move... yeah, if Mime isn't immune to Taunt it's not viable at all. Unranked.

Agreed with the other ones, except by Xatu, it could be unranked in my opinion.
I wouldn't be upset or surprised if the consensus is that it should be unranked. I do think it's worth discussing since Magic Bounce + Trick Room is an awesome combination that normally requires investing a mega slot, but aside from that it's extremely lackluster.
 
Perhaps I should have written a bit more about Azelf. Its problem is that it can't run both a Mental Herb and a Focus Sash. Without Focus Sash it gets OHKO'd by many offensive leads and forced out, but without a Mental Herb it gets shut down by Taunt users and forced out by those. This means it can struggle to do its job and needs more team support than the bulkier Uxie and Mesprit who can safely run a Mental Herb.
Well...that's right, but, Azelf is the 2nd faster taunt user iirc (only slower than Whimsicott) and can take Taunt only from Prankster users, probably u r right about Mental Herb, but Azelf is a best Suicide Lead and, at least B- imo. I guess Mesprit is better than Uxie due to have Healing Wish, then, B or B+ to each one, Idk, something like this I guess.
 
Well...that's right, but, Azelf is the 2nd faster taunt user iirc (only slower than Whimsicott) and can take Taunt only from Prankster users, probably u r right about Mental Herb, but Azelf is a best Suicide Lead and, at least B- imo. I guess Mesprit is better than Uxie due to have Healing Wish, then, B or B+ to each one, Idk, something like this I guess.
I'd say Mesprit and Uxie are about equal. Memento is a better pivot option immediately after turn 6, while Healing Wish is better if you want to save that for later. Both are great moves and which is better depends on the needs of your team. Either B or B+ would be good places to put them. Azelf, I could agree with B-. It's still a great suicide lead, just not as good as it is in standard since everyone is prepared for suicide leads.
 
Mammoth update.

Alakazam (Mega) C+ for normal, B- for Mega. Mega can revenge kill weather sweepers with Trace, while normal can hold a Focus Sash which won't be broken thanks to Magic Guard.

Diancie-Mega A+ As Darvin said, great Trick Room counter-setter and thanks to Magic Bounce it can reflect back hazards too. Can also set up Stealth Rock, Sunny Day, Sandstorm and Gravity, all of which it can abuse itself to a degree.

Cofagrigus B+ As Darvin said, great Trick Room setter which it can abuse itself with its low Speed and good Special Attack. It can also set up Toxic Spikes and Spinblock, and thanks to Mummy it could take the ability of an opponent who relies on it.

Diancie B A solid Trick Room setter, it can also set up Rain, Sun, Gravity and Stealth Rock. As Darvin said, most opponents will be wary of Taunting it due to fearing its mega forme

Gardevoir-Mega C+ Hits extremely hard, access to Taunt lets it prevent some Trick Room setters from doing their thing. Very physically frail though, and honestly there's better megas out there

Espeon D. Looks good at first glance, however it's very frail and in reality you'll never live long enough to set up what you want.

Jirachi B-. I disagree with Darvin on this one, while it doesn't have Taunt it can use Serene Grace boosted Iron Heads to flinch the opponents to death. It also threatens out Mega Diancie and Aromatisse.

Meowstic-M. B Surprisingly good mon, a good combination of what Kelfki and Whimsicott can offer with much worse typing. Imprison + Trick Room is what gives it its niche over the others.

Dusknoir. C+ Gets Taunt which is nice, but otherwise Cofagrigus is better

Mew A- - Can set up almost anything you want. Not as bulky as Cresselia and lacks Healing Wish, but Taunt, Will-O-Wisp and superior Speed give it a niche

Uxie B Memento and Stealth Rock give it a niche over Cresselia

Azelf C Fast and packs a punch, but dies to almost anything. Has Taunt unlike the rest of its trio, but its frailty makes it unsuitable for setting up anything other than Stealth Rock

Mesprit C- Healing Wish is the only real niche it has over Mew.

Reuniclus B- Can set up Trick Room and abuse it too, with its great 125 base Special Attack and free Life Orb courtesy of Magic Guard.

Porygon2 C. Can set up Trick Room well enough, but the problem is it's literally a sitting duck - unlike Cresselia or Aromatisse it can't really support the rest of its team. It's also a huge momentum drain and total Taunt bait

Xatu C-. Takes hits better than Espeon, but still isn't that bulky. Also bad defensive typing makes it lose to most offensive Stealth Rock setters

Torandus T A. As Mega Pidgeot shows, with accuracy taken out of the equation Hurricane is very spammable. Torandus-T is a monster in rain, which it can set up itself. It also has access to one of the fastest Taunts in the meta.

Keldeo A-. As Randomnick said, hits like a train in the rain, and with a scarf still outruns +2 Adamant M-Swampert.

Have also added Darvin's Grassy Terrain team to Sample Teams.


Some more nominations:



B Hits like a truck in the Sun, can also check opposing Fire-types thanks to Flash Fire and can counter set Trick Room. Gets Imprison as well.



A/A+ Like Tornadus-T it can set rain and abuse it itself with perfectly accurate Thunders. Priority Taunt and Thunder Wave courtesy of Prankster mean it can prevent opponents setting up and cripple sweepers, respectively.



C+/C While slower and frailer than its Therian forme, Tornadus hits harder and has Prankster on Rain Dance and Taunt.



A- / B+ Volcanion can work on both sun and Rain teams, as its STABs get the boost. Can also check opposing Fire types for Sun teams with its X4 resistance and to a lesser extent, check opposing Water types for Rain (although it has got to watch out for M-Swampert's Earthquakes and Kabutops's Stone Edge).
 
Last edited:
Chandelure to B (agreed) Hits like a titan in sun, is probably the best option of Wallbreakers to Sun Teams, with access to Fire Blast / Overheat Specs in Sun gets OHKO in the entire meta but resists and Bulkiest SpD Walls
Volcanion to B+ (agreed) This thing have the support needed to Weather teams, can hit many strong and is a burn spammer with Steam Eruption, have a useful coverage and is probably one of the best things to defeat Mega Abomasnow TR + Hail in Rain teams, being able to take damage even after SR.
Thundurus to A+ (agreed) This thing isn't just a powerful attacker in the meta. Prankster Taunt, Momentum with Volt Switch, Rain setting, Thunder, Grass Knot, Superpower and Focus Blast, an awesome speed tier, Prankster Thunder Wave and Prankster Rain Dance.
Tornadus to B (on the fence) Idk, this thing have Prankster Taunt and Prankster Rain Dance, but probably Thundurus Incarnate is a best user, with the same speed, and access to Thunder Wave, and, access to priority Tailwind seems good, but is exactly what Whimsicott can do, probably is a useful option, but not good enough to B, maybe B- or C+ in my opinion.
 
Whimsicott can't use Rain Dance, and Flying is a better offensive type than Electric - it hits 3 types super effectively vs electric's 2 (Grass, Bug and Fighting) and nothing is immune to Flying type moves. You are right in the fact that it's mostly outclassed by Thundurus, but Hurricane is much more spammable than Thunder. Have revised nom to C+ / C
 
Whimsicott can't use Rain Dance, and Flying is a better offensive type than Electric - it hits 3 types super effectively vs electric's 2 (Grass, Bug and Fighting) and nothing is immune to Flying type moves. You are right in the fact that it's mostly outclassed by Thundurus, but Hurricane is much more spammable than Thunder. Have revised nom to C+ / C
Yeah...I agree with C+. Is a good setter imo, and viable, anyway...Thundurus have Rain Dance, Taunt and Thunder Wave to use Prankster, don't have Tailwind, but Tailwind seems not so good and probably Whimsicott is a best setter, anyway, seems good, have access to Hurricane, Tailwind, Taunt, Rain Dance and U-Turn as viable moves, C+ is enough imo.
 
I was thinkin about and, why Mesprit isn't outclassed by Cresselia?
See : Cresselia is faster, they both have the same ability and typing, Cresselia is bulkiest, Mesprit is strongest, but, to a setter, Attacks base won't matter much, Cresselia have a better coverage with Moonblast / Ice Beam if needed, have more things to set up, and Lunar Dance is a few better than Healing Wish, why may be Mesprit ever viable?
2 words: Stealth Rocks...how I forgot? Lol
 
Last edited:
I was thinkin about and, why Mesprit isn't outclassed by Cresselia?
See : Cresselia is faster, they both have the same ability and typing, Cresselia is bulkiest, Mesprit is strongest, but, to a setter, Attacks base won't matter much, Cresselia have a better coverage with Moonblast / Ice Beam if needed, have more things to set up, and Lunar Dance is a few better than Healing Wish, why may be Mesprit ever viable?
As far as usable moves go, Cresselia lacks stealth rock, sandstorm, U-turn, knock off, copycat, skill swap to get past magic bounce, and wonder room while having less spa and more speed. Cresselia has far fewer moves over Mesprit as well, and Mesprit isn't lacking in bulk. Unless you need one of those moves Cresselia is better, but chances are you'll want at least one.
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top