Pokémon Lucario

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dbzmariogeno said:
Bullet Punch > Extreme Speed simply because you can now hit Pokemon like Gengar who assume they are immune to your priority and STAB move. I suppose you could say hitting Fairies is nice, but the utility of turning checks (let's be honest, no one brings Talonflame into Lucario unless it is absolutely sure it has a safe switch and wouldn't die to ESpeed (Rocks in this case making boosting pointless, should they be up.)

Another key point I think people need to realize is: ExtremeSpeed is weak. STAB CC outdamages it even when resisted. Priority on Lucario is used to beat things that would be able to revenge kill it otherwise if they are weakened enough. If ESpeed can not beat something at +2 (and yes many things are faster then Lucario so its very important) what good is it? Even though it has lower power, Bullet Punch is better barring Talonflame, but that is easily taken care of by either SR + CC or simply teammates.

Lucario has dropped in viability because Pokemon like Azumarill, while they can not directly OHKO with their priority, can take a hit and then kill it off. Ice Punch Lucario still loses to Landorus-T with the right EVs. Crunch still loses to most bulkier Ghosts (especially if they come in after a kill) as they carry Will-O-Wisp.

tl;dr: BP > ESpeed cause it's weak anyway and should be used for utility and Licario is worse because it's weak and new Pokemon wall it.

re: Iron Tail: no, it has some use, but leave the few relevant Fairies to teammates and try using your best coverage and utility to beat what you can.

as for the guy above me: you can't count SR because Clefable has Magic Guard gg Luke.
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Key difference between Espeed and Bullet Punch: Espeed isn't outprioritied by brave bird.
 
There isn't a Togekiss in the world that would stay in on a Lucario for fear of a boosted Bullet Punch or Flash Cannon, or even E-speed or Ice Punch. Inner Focus and Steadfast are way too niche to be used over Justified. Steadfast would only be useful if you could possibly switch in and obtain the speed boost, but flinching only works when you get hit, and you're equally likely to get T-waved before you get any flinch Speed boosts.

Unfortunately Lucario is pretty frail and without a Mega Stone the everpresent Knock Off prevents him from switching into most Dark-type moves without losing his item, since so many Dark types (Bisharp and Crawdaunt to name a couple) have dropped their pure Dark-type attacking moves (Night Slash, Crunch, etc) in favor of Knock Off, which has infinitely more utility and usually outdamages the aforementioned attacking moves, provided you don't have to use Knock Off more than a couple times and/or they bring in their Mega.

The banning of Lucarionite to Ubers certainly hurt Lucario a lot, he's still quite powerful without it but now all three of his abilities are extremely niche. The only Dark-type Pokemon I can think of that Lucario would really want to switch into is a Tyranitar, since he x4 resists Rock and would like to switch into an unboosted Crunch...but even then, there's always the chance of switching into an Earthquake, or Fire Blast, Dragon Dance (on Mega Ttar), or even Banded Crunch:

252+ Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 328-388 (116.7 - 138%) -- guaranteed OHKO (neutral Atk nature also OHKO's)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 147-174 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 156-184 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 202-238 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 108-128 (26.7 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

So yeah...it's a shame vanilla Luke doesn't get Adaptability, if Blaziken can have the same ability as his Mega I don't see why Lucario can't have it >.> Lucario is still a good Pokemon though, I'm not a big fan of him as a sweeper though. Stallbreaking fairies like Clefable is a great option but Iron Tail's accuracy is awful...
 
dbzmariogeno said:
Neither guarantee you beat Talonflame, which in the worst case you shouldn't be staying against for obvious reasons
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Thing is, after SD and LO adamant, it has a high chance of OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 294-346 (98.6 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
and if ESpeed doesn't kill, then recoil will.
 
Smog Frog said:
Thing is, after SD and LO adamant, it has a high chance of OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 294-346 (98.6 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
and if ESpeed doesn't kill, then recoil will.
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But no one would switch Talonflame into Lucario, so that doesn't matter. Plus a lot of Talonflames run a decent amount of HP.
 
dbzmariogeno said:
But no one would switch Talonflame into Lucario, so that doesn't matter. Plus a lot of Talonflames run a decent amount of HP.
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But lets say lucario is in the middle of a sweep. the first reaction to stop a sweep is bring out talonflame, who then is promptly stopped by ESpeed. Also believe the spread you are referring to is the 208 spd/ 252 atk/48 HP?

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 294-346 (95.1 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
 
Smog Frog said:
But lets say lucario is in the middle of a sweep. the first reaction to stop a sweep is bring out talonflame, who then is promptly stopped by ESpeed. Also believe the spread you are referring to is the 208 spd/ 252 atk/48 HP?

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 294-346 (95.1 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
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No, but the idea of having support for a Pokemon like Lucario is a way to beat Talonflame, who has many checks and counters. Bullet Punch now means you can not 1v1 it but it also means you beat other Pokemon, most notably Gengar, which if you had ESpeed, can Sub/Wisp your team
 
dbzmariogeno said:
No, but the idea of having support for a Pokemon like Lucario is a way to beat Talonflame, who has many checks and counters. Bullet Punch now means you can not 1v1 it but it also means you beat other Pokemon, most notably Gengar, which if you had ESpeed, can Sub/Wisp your team
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The choice between bullet punch and espeed is coverage and power, but espeed is the preferred option because of its +2 priority. Not saying bullet punch is useless, its just generally inferior to espeed.
 
Smog Frog said:
The choice between bullet punch and espeed is coverage and power, but espeed is the preferred option because of its +2 priority. Not saying bullet punch is useless, its just generally inferior to espeed.
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But the power makes no difference outside of Talonflame. It's much easier to throw in a Talonflame counter, since so many are good in the meta right now, then it is to find a 100% counter to Gengar. It can run SubWisp, SubDisable, LO 4 attacks, even Specs, while it has pretty good coverage too.
 
Running Bullet Punch just for Gengar over the great coverage and power ESpeed provides isn't appealing. Gengar is too frail and not as prevalent as Talonflame and all the other threats that get nailed by +2 ESpeed anyway. Surely any team could pack an answer for it seeing as Dark is a very common attacking type right now. You make it seem like Gengar is the biggest threat out there that it warrants a team to pack a specific Lucario set to counter it when it really isn't.

Sure, BP is a viable option but it's just another case of Luke's 4MSS and which threats your team would rather hit. ESpeed hits a lot of things harder than BP does, which makes it the superior option in most cases.
 
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dbzmariogeno said:
No, but the idea of having support for a Pokemon like Lucario is a way to beat Talonflame, who has many checks and counters. Bullet Punch now means you can not 1v1 it but it also means you beat other Pokemon, most notably Gengar, which if you had ESpeed, can Sub/Wisp your team
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Gengar can 1HKO Lucario with Focus blast. Specs Gengar can also 1HKO Lucario with Shadow Ball.

at +2 Bullet Punch is 2HKO, so it's better for facing Gengar/faster Ghosts but it wouldn't be useful against Talonflame while Extreme Speed stops Talonflame.
 
dkkc19 said:
Gengar can 1HKO Lucario with Focus blast. Specs Gengar can also 1HKO Lucario with Shadow Ball.

at +2 Bullet Punch is 2HKO, so it's better for facing Gengar/faster Ghosts but it wouldn't be useful against Talonflame while Extreme Speed stops Talonflame.
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I just said that... I just said it 5 times...
 
dbzmariogeno said:
I just said that... I just said it 5 times...
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you seem to be cherry picking your arguments. One second saying espeed doesn't ohko talon and you shouldn't stay in it for any reason, then one post later saying talonflame should never come in against Luc in the first place. Majorly contradicting man.
 
Tyrant laharl said:
you seem to be cherry picking your arguments. One second saying espeed doesn't ohko talon and you shouldn't stay in it for any reason, then one post later saying talonflame should never come in against Luc in the first place. Majorly contradicting man.
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How is that contradicting? Neither should come in on the other.
 
How does running both Bullet Punch and ES work? ES can potentially KO Talonflame, especially banded variants which happen to be running speed over HP to outrun Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack, if I'm correct they run this EV spread and nature: Adamant, 50 HP, 252 Attack, 208 Speed
it has a good chance to KO Talonflame considering that it's healthy.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 50 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 294-346 (95.1 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Gengar isn't as common anymore, but if anyone feels like they need to cover it BP is an option, it's not guaranteed to KO but it still has a great chance and if Gengar is running LO it'll die from the recoil after it hits Lucario.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 251-296 (95.8 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

But with all that I still think Crunch is a better option over BP, something like Jellicent can wall Lucario and force it to switch but with Crunch it can hit it hard and will most likely knock it out.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 398-471 (98.5 - 116.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Max defense Jellicent barely survives Lucario's Crunch so it's definitely worth considering.
 
Double priority Lucario was just as viable as Luke's other options last generation, but most pokemon I can think of that bullet punch was useful against have fallen out of favor. It's still useful for sure, but terrakion and gengar, two pokemon that BP would be useful against, have become less common than in Gen 5.

Basically, there are more common and prevalent pokemon you should be focusing on, such as aegislash, landorus-t, gliscor, and Mega-venusaur, most of whom lucario can smash with the proper coverage move.
 
Earthquake can destroy Aegislash while Lucario doesn't have to fear getting it's attack dropped by King's Shield.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 390-460 (120.3 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Well that's more than enough powerful, but what can it do against Mega Venusaur?
 
I did say most of them, but on mega venusaur: +2 252+ Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 160-189 (43.9 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

While on the other hand: 252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 129-152 (45.9 - 54%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

Please note that this set was usage set from the calculator, I do not know if there are more popular sets that fare better, but standard megasaur is not a safe answer to lucario.
 
how about:
Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Hasty Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Vacuum Wave
- Flash Cannon
- Rock Slide
Justified raises the power of rock slide and tricks the foe into expecting a physical set, then you set up a nasty plot on the switch. knock off removes your item, but raises your attack, making it possibly worth the loss.
 
I fail to see how anyone could possibly justify running this. First of all, your most powerful attack is flash cannon, which is a horrible offensive type. Aura sphere is by far better offensive typing. Second, rock slide is just a horrible idea. Using rock slide to make the opponent think you have a physical set is like using fire punch on ampharos to bluff a physical set. If you want to bluff a physical set, use close combat. Second, nasty plot Lucario is bad in general with the rise of threats such as aegislash that require you to run dark pulse over vacuum wave. Finally, I suggest actually reading the posts to get an idea of what lucario should be using in the first place.
 
Johnathan Day said:
I fail to see how anyone could possibly justify running this. First of all, your most powerful attack is flash cannon, which is a horrible offensive type. Aura sphere is by far better offensive typing. Second, rock slide is just a horrible idea. Using rock slide to make the opponent think you have a physical set is like using fire punch on ampharos to bluff a physical set. If you want to bluff a physical set, use close combat. Second, nasty plot Lucario is bad in general with the rise of threats such as aegislash that require you to run dark pulse over vacuum wave. Finally, I suggest actually reading the posts to get an idea of what lucario should be using in the first place.
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Calm your shit.

It's not terrible but I think that Rock Slide -> Stone Edge Vacuum Wave -> CC Flash Cannon -> Bullet Punch Nasty Plot -> Swords Dance. Lucario can't really bluff.
 
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