Luke, we're your fathers! (OU RMT)

MistaBurp

Hi Smogon,

it's been a while since I've posted my second OU RMT, and I've been experimenting with some different Pokémon and teams, and one of them that seems to be succesfull is this one, so I taught, why not go to Smogon and get some improvements?

This team is build backwards. I started out with my (late game) Sweeper and I searched new Pokémon that were able to help him succeed.

Allright, what about looking at this team first?
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Now, the most important thing, an in depth view:

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Item: Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Moveset:
~ Swords Dance
~ Close Combat
~ ExtremeSpeed
~ Ice Punch

What does this Pokémon do and how does he do it?
This Lucario is here to finish the job, after all upcoming Pokémon have done their job. This Lucario switches in on something that doesn't pose a threat (for example a Blissey or a Tyranitar stuck into Crunch), Swords Dance on the switch out, and then I'm a mean killing machine. Close Combat is my main attacking move, as it is a 120 base power STAB move. ExtremeSpeed is there to kill weakened or frailer Pokémon that are faster then Luke. Ice Punch I've chosen as my last move, although most of the time the first two will be used.

Why Lucario?
Basicly, I was looking for a Pokémon to build my team around. Salamence and Gyarados I taught were kinda unoriginal. So then it came up to me. I have a Lucario that seems to be able from time to time to pull of a sweep, although there are times he completely failes me. So I taught, If I take the time and the effort to build a team around this thing that is based uppon eliminating Lucario's threats, that might be a succes...

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Item: Choice Scarf
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Moveset:
~ Draco Meteor
~ Surf
~ Thunderbolt
~ Trick

What does this Pokémon do and how does he do it?
This Pokémon is in my team for a couple of things. He's here to stop the two Intimidating Dragons (Gyarados and Salamence) from Intimidating my Lucario, and preventing them to set up. This Latias is faster then both after a Dragon Dance (due the Choice Scarf) and has a OHKO move for both of them (Thunderbolt and Draco Meteor). Another threat to my Luke is a Scarftran. That explains the third moveslot (Surf). Trick is just great as a lategame move to stop a wall from doing stupid stuff to my team.

Why Latias?
I needed a Pokémon with greater base speed then 100 and who had high enough special attack (I didn't want a physical one cuz special attackers can stop Physical Walls beter) and the movepool to OHKO Gyarados and Salamence. So four Pokémon came to mind. Latias, Azelf, Gengar and Jolteon. Of those four all of them were able to do this job, although only one was also able to stop Heatran (Scarftran), and that one was Latias. Also typewise Latias fits best with Lucario

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Item: Choice Band
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Moveset:
~ Pursuit
~ Ice Shard
~ Brick Break
~ Aerial Ace

What does this Pokémon do and how does he do it?
This Pokémon is in my team for one reason only, and that's stopping Ghost types (especcialy Gengar) from stopping Lucario. He comes in to Gengar, and Pursuits him. This Gengar is doomed anyway with this Weavile in play. To be honest, all those other attacks are not really nessesairy, cuz this Pokémon has only one purpuse and thats killing Ghosts. Ice Shard is usefull to stop Salamence or Dragonite after a Dragon Dance (although thats what Latias does), and the other two moves I've chosen to gain some coverage.

Why Weavile?
When I taught about stopping Ghosts, I taught Pursuit. The first two Pokémon that came up to me were Tyranitar and Scizor. Tyranitar wouldn't fit anyway 'cause Gengar just goes Focus Blast in stead of switching out. The second one, Scizor, is more tricky... If the Gengar doesn't have Protect it's gambling between Bullet Punch, if he stayes in, or Pursuit, if he switches out. But if Gengar has Protect, Scizor is also doomed. Then I taught about that one Pokémon that outspeeds Gengar and can also learn Pursuit, and that's Weavile!

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Item: Leftovers
Nature: Bold
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Def / 68 Spe
Moveset:
~ Wish
~ Protect
~ Surf
~ Toxic

What does this Pokémon do and how does he do it?
This Vaporeon takes hits, as well as healing weakened Pokémon who I don't like to lose (doing so using Wish). In combination with Protect you have a virually unstoppable wall. Surf is my main STAB move to stop Heatran. And as I have noticed trying out different Vaporeons, Toxic just works the best. (And I have a priority Ice user in Weavile and HP Electric just doesn't do enough damage to stop other bulky waters).

Why Vaporeon?
I needed to start thinking Defensively, because all threats to Lucario (Physical Walls, Ghosts and Intimidating Dragons) were gone. And with the addition of Weavile I made myself again weak to Fire, and again, especcialy Scarftran. Latias alone wasn't safe enough, and Latias has other priorities for this team. So I needed a bulky Water. And the one that I like the most (and I think is the best) is Vaporeon.

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Item: Leftovers
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe
Moveset:
~ Heal Bell
~ Grass Knot
~ Recover
~ Hidden Power Fire

What does this Pokémon do and how does he do it?
I saw two more threats that might stop my Lucario... Paralisys and Burn, so I needed a Pokémon who could give that support to my team. Celebi has acces to Heal Bell. He can Recover himself due Recover (lol) and with Grass Knot my team gains a Swampert counter. The last moveslot whas a bit tricky, because Thunder Wave might be usefull as well. But I saw Scizor as a switch in and Hidden Power Fire as the perfect counter.

Why Celebi?
Basicly I was thinking about two Pokémon, Dragonite and Celebi. Those two are verry much alike, and I picked Celebi because he has just that little bit more speed that might be usefull.

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Item: Leftovers
Nature: Relaxed
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Moveset:
~ Stealth Rock
~ Earthquake
~ Ice Beam
~ Roar
What does this Pokémon do and how does he do it?
Well, this is a standard Swampert Lead. With faster leads that might Taunt me, I go straight away for an attacking move, or I switch into a counter. With slower leads or leads that lack the use of Taunt, I go for Stealth Rock and then Roar (for scouting purpuses) or go for an attacking move.

Why Swampert
I needed a lead, something that can put up Stealth Rocks, gave me Fire resistance (cause with Celebi, I again opened that gate) and could be used in late game. Swampert came up to me, because I used him a while ago and I had no complains about Swampert.

Overall oppinion:
I'm verry happy about this team. Although I have a big Fire weak, I also have the Pokémon to stop Fire Pokémon from hurting my team.
Every counter for Lucario can be stopped, and after those counters are gone, Luke is virtually unstoppable.
I've played this team yesterday 4 times, and 4 times it ended with a Lucario Sweep.

So, here's a final look before you can start rating!
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I like your concept of setting up SD Lucario for a sweep. I think however you could improve your team with a few changes.
First, you should drop Ice Punch on Lucario and opt for Stone Edge or Crunch. Those pokemon which you want to hit with IP all outspeed and ohko and those who are slower are hit harder by Stone Edge. As you have a Pursuiter to deal with Ghosts/Psychics i would suggest Stone Edge over Crunch. If you don't like its Accuracy however or your pursuiter fails too often, run Crunch.

Second, you have to support Lucario better, means youll have yo kill or weaken its counters (so that Luke KOs them at +2).
You should maybe run Earth Power on celebi, as celebi is your only ScarfHeatran lure and can't hurt it on the switch without it. Heatran won't switch into any of your other pokemon and thus will later switch into Luke at full health and ko.
ScarfTyranitar can be handled with Latias, because it always lures in TTar and can hit it on the switch with surf. Therefore you should always use Surf first.
Gengar and Scarf Rotom can be handled with a Pursuiter as you noticed. You should however drop weavile and use scarf-tayrnitar. Weavile is much too frail and falls to Stealth Rocks very fast. ScarfTtar outspeeds non-scarf Gengar and Rotom and can play mind games. If they stay, Crunch KOes, If they switch Pursuit Koes.
Tyranitar@Choice Scarf
Jolly-252Atk, 252Spe, 4HP
-Stone Edge -Crunch
-Pursuit -Earthquake/Superpower
If Gengar/ Rotom are scarfed your job is even easier. Just prevent switching into Focus Blast and Pursuit them.

I hope these suggestions helped you. Have fun with your team.
 
LFC Rulez said:
I like your concept of setting up SD Lucario for a sweep. I think however you could improve your team with a few changes.
First, you should drop Ice Punch on Lucario and opt for Stone Edge or Crunch. Those pokemon which you want to hit with IP all outspeed and ohko and those who are slower are hit harder by Stone Edge. As you have a Pursuiter to deal with Ghosts/Psychics i would suggest Stone Edge over Crunch. If you don't like its Accuracy however or your pursuiter fails too often, run Crunch.

Second, you have to support Lucario better, means youll have yo kill or weaken its counters (so that Luke KOs them at +2).
You should maybe run Earth Power on celebi, as celebi is your only ScarfHeatran lure and can't hurt it on the switch without it. Heatran won't switch into any of your other pokemon and thus will later switch into Luke at full health and ko.
ScarfTyranitar can be handled with Latias, because it always lures in TTar and can hit it on the switch with surf. Therefore you should always use Surf first.
Gengar and Scarf Rotom can be handled with a Pursuiter as you noticed. You should however drop weavile and use scarf-tayrnitar. Weavile is much too frail and falls to Stealth Rocks very fast. ScarfTtar outspeeds non-scarf Gengar and Rotom and can play mind games. If they stay, Crunch KOes, If they switch Pursuit Koes.
Tyranitar@Choice Scarf
Jolly-252Atk, 252Spe, 4HP
-Stone Edge -Crunch
-Pursuit -Earthquake/Superpower
If Gengar/ Rotom are scarfed your job is even easier. Just prevent switching into Focus Blast and Pursuit them.

I hope these suggestions helped you. Have fun with your team.
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Thanks for the suggestions, I like them. Although I'm gonna wait a little bit to change them. Not that I don't trust you (to be honest I really agree with what you say), but I would like some other oppinions first.
 
I can tell you I have played this same team in many different tournaments and its good untill you run into Gyarados then he is gonna take out celebi and latias and if gary isn't down by then he will take out your lucario and if he happens to know stone edge , most do weavile is dead then you got two water pokemon which a dragon dance garydos can very well 6-0 that team ... now thats not always the case tho but...... if it has the right combo of attack and speed it can easily 6-0 your team hope that helps (look into magnezone instead of vaperon thats counter any steel pokemon and OHKO garydos and blissey with explosion) or three thunderbolts
 
Gybson said:
I can tell you I have played this same team in many different tournaments and its good untill you run into Gyarados then he is gonna take out celebi and latias and if gary isn't down by then he will take out your lucario and if he happens to know stone edge , most do weavile is dead then you got two water pokemon which a dragon dance garydos can very well 6-0 that team ... now thats not always the case tho but...... if it has the right combo of attack and speed it can easily 6-0 your team hope that helps (look into magnezone instead of vaperon thats counter any steel pokemon and OHKO garydos and blissey with explosion) or three thunderbolts
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Gyarados (and Salamence, but that doesn't mather) is the reason why Latias is in this team and has a Choice Scarf... Really honestly, I've never faced a Gyarados that doesn't Dragon Dance on the switch out. If I switch Latias in, I'm still faster after a Dragon Dance and I can OHKO with Thunderbolt... But indeed, when Latias is killed by Gyarados, I'm screwed.

Changing Vaporeon for Magnezone isn't something I will say no against no matter what, but Latias is a way better counter, concidering that, as you have mentioned, Gyarados runs the attacks that can hurt me, then he can also run Earthquake, with is defenitely a OHKO on Magnezone. And even putting a Scarf on Magnezone won't change that, concidering a DD Gyarados will always outspeed a Magnezone after a DD, even when it is Scarfed.

But thanks anyway
 
The poster above is right about changing ice punch. Generally, Ice Punch is used to hit Gliscor, but nowadays almost all Gliscor outrun you and OHKO. Since you have a ghost/Psychic trapper at the moment, I would suggest Stone Edge, as it is very helpful against Gyarados, or Bullet punch as it will KO Gengar and Scarf Tyranitar. Since you already have a dragon-type revenge killer, Tyranitar is generally preferred over Weavile, particularly if you opt for bullet punch (where you could even run CB since Gar is not a problem.) Tyranitar deals with defensive Rotom better, because it can hit Rotom with a powerful Crunch if it does not switch, and is also much less frail than Weavile and neutral to SR. In other words you are right to trust the person above.

If you were to implement the above changes, I can still see some problems. If you run Stone edge you will still have problems with Scarf Tar, and if you run Bullet punch, with Gyarados. You may also be stopped by a Scarf Magnezone, although Vaporeon is a fairly good lure (If you've ever tried Specs Vappy, it OHKOs with Surf!) The main problem, however, is clearly Gliscor, who is very difficult to lure in my opinion. Tyranitar with Ice Beam is the probably the best lure, but he is used as a trapper. However, I noticed that a normal Scarf Tar (jolly) with Ice beam will do 100% max actually (a good chance to OHKO with SR) and a neutral natured one would KO 100% of the time with SR. The old Scarftar always used to be mixed, so I suppose this might work.

The main issue I see is that you tend to be edging towards stall, but there is a lack of entry hazards to really do damage. It seems to me that either wish or cleric support is not really necessary. The poster above had suggested Earth Power on Celebi - in my opinion this should go over Heal Bell. Celebi himself can act as some sort of a status absorber anyway.

This is a good team, so this is just a few ideas for you to think about. Good luck
 
So, ignoring the post about (Scarf)Magnezone, it comes down to this:

Lucario: Bullet Punch over Ice Punch

CB Weavile out and (Mixed) ScarfTar in

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
48 Atk / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Naive
- Ice Beam
- Pursuit
- Crunch
- Flamethrower

(Correct me if this set can be better)

Celebi runs Earth Power over Heal Bell, although this Celebi's main reason for being in this team was Heal Bell. Wouldn't it be better if I put some EV's in Special Attack then?

And (if even just for fun once) Specs Vaporeon?
 
Okay, I think this team is very good overall, but I feel your Dragon Dance Gyarados problem is your main problem. As is, it can pretty easily 6-0 your team, but there is one easy way to fix this. I recommend switching Toxic to Hp Electric on Vaporeon since Gyara cant KO you and you can KO it back then. Since she is the only real staller your team has, and anything that switched into the Toxic will most likely be able to OHKO you anyway, Toxic is kinda useless here anyways.
 
To start, thanks for all the rates and comments.

Everybody keeps on saying that DD Gyarados is my main problem, but haven't you guys read that I have a Scarf Latias who will outspeed Gyarados after one Dragon Dance and has the Thunderbolt? Or isn't that good enough?
 
MistaBurp said:
To start, thanks for all the rates and comments.

Everybody keeps on saying that DD Gyarados is my main problem, but haven't you guys read that I have a Scarf Latias who will outspeed Gyarados after one Dragon Dance and has the Thunderbolt? Or isn't that good enough?
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The thing is, if something strange happens and Gyara manages to get cut loose, you lose instantly. An example would be Gyara switching out to something specially bulky with Pursuit (TTar, perhaps) and then killing Latias. They can then get Gyarados in with ease and DD up for a sweep. The problem is not any inadequacy of your Latias, it's just that it CAN fail and that it's the only thing standing between you and an angry blue dragon. I personally think it's all right as long as you play it well and will generally not be a problem, but if you want to hedge your bets then go right ahead and put in some more Electric damage.
 
Ok, you are most certainly not weak to Dragon Dance Gyarados. Considering you have a Scarf Latias that can revenge kill it, and Celebi and Vaporeon that wall it, Gyarados isn't really going to be sweeping you anytime soon. In fact, there are far more threatening foes than Gyarados.

First off, I see Scizor is going to be causing you a ton of problems. It can come on with impunity on Celebi (HP Fire doesn't KO specially defensive variants), Latias and Weavile and then let loose U-turns. U-turn badly injures your entire team, since your only Bug resistance is the rather frail Lucario. That is not something you want in a standard team of this era. Secondly, you're at extreme risk of being swept by other Lucario. It gets a free Swords Dance on your Weavile locked into Pursuit and Latias at -2 and locked into Draco Meteor. From there, there's not much that can stop it from running through your team. Swampert, Vaporeon and your own Lucario are nailed by Close Combat, Celebi is Crunched and Latias and Weavile are Extremespeeded to death. Finally, you are rather weak to stall. Most of your Pokemon have low firepower and can't really stop stall teams from setting up entry hazards. Also, 5 of your Pokemon are hit by Spikes and all your walls are severely crippled by Toxic Spikes. Lucario is the only Pokemon on your team that has a shot at beating stall, but it really struggles to take down an entire stall team by itself.

I have a few suggestions to deal with these threats. Now Weavile seems to be causing all these problems for you in the first place, providing easy switch-ins for Scizor and Lucario, plus it is easily walled. I suggest you replace Weavile with a Scizor.

Scizor @ Choice Band | Adamant
160 HP / 180 Atk / 168 SpD
U-turn / Bullet Punch / Superpower / Pursuit

Scizor provides the Ghost-killing that Weavile once performed, while being able to actually switch into them due to its fantastic typing and specially defensive EVs. Also, it provides a nice Bug resist so it can take other Scizor's U-turns. It also wrecks special walls and most physical walls are unable to completely wall it. Whilst it doesn't help with Lucario (though it can revenge kill it after some Defense drops), and may not be as beneficial as my next suggestion, I still think it'll work better for you as it's a more reliable Pursuiter than Weavile.

My second suggestion is to replace Swampert with Gliscor.

Gliscor @ Leftovers | Jolly
252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spd
Earthquake / Roost / Taunt / Stealth Rock

The reason I chose Swampert to be replaced is because it seemed the most useless considering you already have a bulky water in the form of Vaporeon. Gliscor makes for a fairly reliable lead that can get up Stealth Rock quickly. It provides an answer to all your teams troubles. It makes an excellent Scizor switch-in, taking little damage from anything but Bullet Punch. It's one of the best Lucario counters in the game, outspeeding it and OHKOing it with Earthquake whilst being able to take an Extremespeed. Finally, Taunt prevents any set-up by stall teams, so you can immediately get on the offensive without entry hazards bothering.

Other things I'd like to suggest is that you replace Ice Punch on Lucario with Crunch. To be fair, Ice Punch is useless in this metagame imo, due to Gliscor and Salamence, the most common Ice Punch targets, running enough EVs to outspeed even Jolly Lucario, and you're using an Adamant nature. Crunch is infinitely more useful, being able to take down bulky Ghosts and Psychics, such as Rotom-A, Celebi and Cresselia.

Finally, I think you should run Thunder Wave instead of Heal Bell on Celebi. Your team doesn't really need it, considering Gliscor (or Swampert should you not replace it) is immune to Thunder Wave, Scizor doesn't mind paralysis Celebi has Natural Cure and Vaporeon doesn't mind being burned. Thunder Wave would be much more useful, easily ruining many offensive Pokemon out there. Paralysing Salamence so Lucario can hit it with Close Combat can prove useful if Scizor dies early, and it prevents Choice Scarfed Pokemon from easily revenge killing you.

Good luck with your team.
 
As I see you now have some other suggestions to work with and Thus I'd like to give a last statement.
First of all, don't use Bullet Punch on Lucario. There are only 2 pokes you can use it against and these are Gengar(who is easily pursuited by TTar) and Scarf-TTar (while you should know that only <20% of all TTar are scarfed, you will kill the others). As Ialready said use Stone Edge or Crunch if SEs Accuracy is a problem. If you absolutely fear ScarfTar and your celebi lure for scarf heatran let you down you could also consider Mach punch but I would stay with SE/Crunch.
I really like the above posted idea of replacing Swampert with Gliscor. You already have a bulky water and this will solve all your Lucario problems (although the ScarfTar
I suggested for your team is one of the best Luke checks out there (barring the rare Bullet Punch/Mach Punch variants)
As your pursuiter I must say again use that Scarf tar. It is nothing but the best Gengar and Rotom check out there, hands down. Scizor falls to every HP fire and Rotoms overheat and weavile isn't even worth mentioning.
Additionally Sand Stream will help Lucario and especially Gliscor very much. I can really say this as I have very often used the ScarfTar-Gliscor combo and it really works wonders. You Latias wont like SS but it still lives long enough to revenge Mences and Gyarados.
If you really think DD Gyara is a problem (although Celebi and latias check it quite well), run HP electric over Toxic on Vaporeon. Then Vappy becomes the best Gyara counter in the Game besides Pory2.

Now your team is very similar to one of my previous ladder teams which worked quite well, although mine was more semi-stall oriented and I didn't use Lucario.

Good luck with your team.
 
I really don't see the big problem with DD Gyarados, really people... Latias is in this team for 2 reasons, DD Gyarados & DD Mence and Physical Walls, but especially DD Dragons... And even without Latias my Vaporeon with Toxic and Wish/Protect kills of DD Gyarados without losing a single hit point... As I've experienced using this Vaporeon...

I really like the idea about Scarf TTar (Scizor just isn't an option, as a Protect / HP Fire Gengar always outsmartens this thing... As I've experienced as well...

Gliscor lead I've also been using quite a while and that also works for me, so again I like that.

This is actually pretty funny, the team I've been using until now (compared to this one, with the changes) is:

Gliscor lead <-> Gliscor lead
Vaporeon <-> Vaporeon
Scarftran <-> Celebi (I'm gonna try Twave here)
CB Scizor <-> Scarf TTar
CM Latias <-> Scarf Latias
SD Luke <-> SD Luke

Although I do think this is an improvement
 
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