ORAS UU M-Houndoom Balance

[GreenGan]

Hey guys! Ok So I've reconnected to pokemon for 4 month now after 15 years, and I've played UU for 2 months, but like 2 match a day, with this team. I like it, but it has lots of problem, mostly power and difficult switch in, so I'd like some advice on it. I get to 1300 points, then it's too difficult. Thanks!

So Basically I wanted to run M-Houndoom. I thought Trevenant had a great type synergy, so i tried him but he was shit, so i picked a gimmick version of Gourgeist-Large that works pretty well imo.

Then I wanted to make a good Physycal sweeper with good synergy with houndoom, Mienshao seemed quite good.

Ok. Offensive duo, I wanted to get a EH setter + rapid spinner cuz I need both to OHKO properly with my offensive duet, and SR is a pain for Doom. Plus it was a pseudo Voltturn core.

Okay now I needed a resistance to fire in my defensive core, plus a great wish could'nt hurt as my sweeper are pretty light. Vaporeon, here I come.

When I created that team, I desperatly needed a counter to M-Pidgeot, plus an immunity to ground attack. Eelektross was both, + an other slow volt switcher, and a good sweeper too.

ok, now let's go for the team :

Machiavel (Houndoom) (F) @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 32 Def / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Sucker Punch

Fireblast miss is bugging me. Plus low PP.. Flamethrower is better, even if it has probably cost me som OHKO. The EV speed is enough to outspeed Tornadus full speed, I'm only outspeed by other Houndoom or Azelf right now, but I have sucker punch for it which does 72% at least, and at least 51% on Beedrill. I used sucker punch cuz it's my only priority in this team, and is quite surprising. (Oh, btw, this mon need HP fairy desperatly)

Nemeton (Gourgeist-Large) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 124 HP / 236 Def / 148 Spe
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute
- Seed Bomb

So, gimmick one. The speed allows me to outspeed most staller, especially crocune and taunt jelli. So I place the sub on the toxic or Wow who come, then I just have to Leech Seed/Wow back. Seed Bomb for taunt. Curselax with EQ is done, it takes a knock off by Krook and Wow him back. Plus I like having a ghost on my team to threaten Mienshao, or rapid spin users. I'll post some replay for him.

Virevolte (Mienshao) (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Stone Edge
- U-turn
- Knock Off

Not much to say. I prefer Stone Edge than Poison Jab as Crobat don't like it on the switch, but i'm open to other opinion. He's usually my U-turn lead.

Amperess (Eelektross) (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Giga Drain
- Acid Spray
- Discharge

Maybe the less useful right now. Check crobat, and Aerodactyl if I don't get predicted. Acid spray was to threaten florges + better recovery with giga drain, but I think Flamethrower could be better.

Alkatraz (Forretress) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Gyro Ball
- Volt Switch

I chose the SpD set to be a good check to florges. He's kinda set up bait so I always play SR on stall mon or if I force switch with it. Otherwise, I just voltswitch.

Delphos (Vaporeon) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 52 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Wish
- Heal Bell
- Protect

This EV spread serves me better to check offensive Arcanine, Entei and Nidoqueen. Heal Bell because T-Wave ruins Mienshao, Toxic/Wow ruins Gourgeist.. It's really needed. A check to scald is kinda good too.



M-Ampharos, Nidoking/queen are my major problem, but I only have one check to things like Arcanine, Lucario, Roserade.. Then I have to predict well.


Okay, I have some replays now :
This one is a good illustration of my team and how bad I can be sometimes : http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uususpecttest-250108647
Gourgeist vs Crocune : http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uususpecttest-246774504
Gourgeist and Houndoom made the game :http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uususpecttest-250140123 (I win on a crit at the end, don't go too far)

 

[jjoshcja]

If your having legit problems with your build or your play, then battling 101 or just using a premade from the UU archive is a pretty good way to reconnect to this metagame.

Battling 101: http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/battling-101.42/
UU Team Dump: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-uu-sample-team-thread.3536731/

As for changes to this team to make it more efficient and user friendly Mdoom team...

Mega Houndoom wants flame charge over sucker punch with a timid nature, the speed boost can let doom actually function vs offense rather than relying on the weaker sucker punch. Fire Blast > Flamethrower the accuracy can be a pain but the power is very very relevant. A 100% chance to not kill and lose is always worse than a 15% chance to miss and lose

SD Doublade > Gourgiest. Priority is a big dead, scarf, band, and specs can be a noob trap so if you rebuild try to do so without choice. This also gives you a better overall fighting check.

Baton Pass > Heal bell Slow baton pass (0 speed iv's - speed nature) is a cool way to abuse the waters, grasses and fat thigns in general that want ot abuse poor vapy

Past that I would recommend changing your mons as you feel the need. I could rebuild 5 slots jam on a MDoom and call it a RMT (and almost did but I vomited in my mouth a little). Instead of letting this forum rebuild your team, let the team grow with you in general and it might be something cool.

For right now I would seriously recommend the onsite learning resources and just using the premades from the team dump, mid/high ladder game experience and using a variety of well made teams will help you rebuild this Mdoom team a lot faster than a low ladder struggle man. I cannot stress the use a variety of teams thing enough, Playing well made stall lets you learn stalls weaknesses, playing well made offense lets you learn offenses weaknesses, Playing vs good players in general can up your game much faster.

Welcome back and good luck.

 

[GreenGan]

Wow thanks for the detailed answer. If I understand well, long is the road.. I figured you'd propose to switch gourgeist to doublade. I was actually looking for some replacement for my mon, but I'm going to look out for your link. and just try to build my experience from other team than try to do everything at the same time. Thanks!

 

[teal6]

Hi GreenGan,

I see that you have a sort of thesis behind this team which is definitely a good way to go about building. I'm sure you've had some success utilizing a VoltTurn core to get MHoundoom, a quite frail mon, in favorable matchups, which is definitely cool. There are a few ways I can see that you can make this team more reliable, though!

Firstly I would like to address something from jjoshcja's rate. He suggests that you should replace Heal Bell with Baton Pass on Vaporeon. While there is utility in Baton Pass, namely safer Wish passing, I generally dislike this as having Heal Bell is almost always a great option. In a status-heavy tier like UU (with the abundance of Bulky Waters, a few consistent T-Spikes layers, and the increased popularity of Porygon2 at the moment spreading T-Wave) I think having Heal Bell is very important. As you noted, several members of your team get rendered useless by status, so why not keep a bulky mon capable of helping out in that sense?

However, I do not think Vaporeon is necessarily right for this role. I generally prefer Umbreon over it, and definitely for this team as you otherwise do not have soft switch in check to Hydreigon. The moveset will be similar, but with Foul Play over Scald. Foul Play is actually a really great move, especially for a wall, which allows you to hit back hard against threatening mons like Gatr and Mega Aero while avoiding KOs from them. Umbreon also gives you another switch in to Mega Ampharos and the Nidos typically (though beware of coverage moves like Superpower which has, believe it or not, bopped me once or twice) which you say have given you issues in the past. Additionally I would keep an eye out because, with hazard damage, Umbreon goes from being a solid check to a shaky one to all of these mons unfortunately, despite its strong HP and SpDef stats and can let up momentum because you will be forced to play a bit predictably if you switch in on them.

The rest of my rate will try to follow what I believe you intended for the core concept of your team, which I see as use momentum gaining moves to give Mega Houndoom the chance to boost and sweep. As I said before, this is a really good idea, and using a mon that sits in an interesting speed tier. So just rating Houndoom himself, while typically I would prefer Sucker Punch, I actually like Flame Charge as it allows you to act as a pseudo double dancer, which is quite interesting on a mon such as Mega Houndoom.

If you do change Vaporeon to Umbreon, this gives you one less soft check to Suicune (though the Vaporeon set you are running loses to CroCune 100% of the time technically). I think that this is a good chance to switch a different member in your team, running Heliolisk over Eelektross. Lisk hits harder and has a very useful ability in Dry Skin which makes you an incredibly strong counter/check to Crocune and SpDef Empoleon, two mons that stop your desires sweep with Houndoom. An LO set with max SpA and SpE works fine for Lisk, and the moves will be Thunderbolt, Hyper Voice, Volt Switch and your choice between Grass Knot and Surf. Personally, for your team, I would prefer Grass Knot as Swampert can be a bit of an issue for Houndoom and you are more likely to come against him than a mon such as Rhyperior where you would prefer Surf.

While I applaud the use of Gourgeist as it is an interesting mon, I don't think it fits your team super well as it cedes momentum a bit too much for my liking (though can nab some good burns, etc.) Doublade is a good choice over it, as this gives you a second check to MAero (who outspeeds your Houndoom) and mons like Cresselia (which can tank a STAB SE hit and Para/Toxic back against it). Additionally, this will give you a bit of a shaky check to something like Heracross, provided you don't switch in on a Knock Off. Gourgeist unfortunately struggles to offer the same because it cannot damage back really, and most Heracross's run guts. Though, to be honest, I'm not really feeling Doublade super much either because as I said it is an inconsistent switching to UU's Big Bug, which otherwise will give your team a tough time overall. In a general offensive archetype you may want a wallbreaker in this spot anyway, and seeing as you lack one that isn't also doubling as your setup sweeper, I thought Dragalge would work here, but then I realize you have no ground resists at all.

Upon review then, I think we can make these final switches and give the team a try: Gourgeist can change to Rotom-H, which beats up on Mamoswine sans Stone Edge (which I've noticed as being quite rare these days). Then, to keep up offensive pressure and maintain a Volt Switcher, I would like to try Stealth Rocks Cobalion with Magnet Rise over Forretress. This gives you a soft way of keeping out ground pokemon and defeats non Flamethrower Nidos. Though I'm not 100% sure on this if only because I think you really need the hazard control Forry provides due to your sweepers weakness to rocks and grounded status.

While my finish product may have a bit of the air or 5 offense + pivot I think Umbreon is a classic glue for that pivot spot due to the way Foul Play works. I would recommend giving this a shot, and seeing if I've overlooked anything glaring, but I believe the basics for a UU ladder team are covered. I attempted to keep the core thesis of your team in tact while tweaking certain mons just to provide a bit more coherency, but you've definitely got the basic concept down and will continue to produce good teams if you put similar diligence into all of them.

 

[jjoshcja]

i hate rebuilds with a passion, soooo muchly. I do like teals metagame analysis so the post is 100% worth a read but...

http://pastebin.com/5R9Dc7iK I call it, "team mienshao speed tie", while the fighting weakness is less with vapy over umbreon this team still takes 0 hits from any punchy thing, and is a 100% objective lesson in why rebuilds are a terrible idea.

http://pastebin.com/bmM62vvk importable of what your team may look like in a week or 2, it still has real weaknesses but many can be "played around". I still encourage you to take a tested premade and build on your own after learning a bit. Rather than a usable team consider this a preview of what your team could look like in the near future and try to figure out why it deviates from your own as a learning exercise.

 

[teal6]

jjoshcja is right. I think throughout the course of my post I ended up thinking almost too close to what I was writing at the moment and not in the more general sense and for that I apologize.

My rebuild definitely ends up a bit fighting weak. While you're able to revenge a lot of fighting mons, you end up with that Mienshao speed tie which is just garbage. The Crobat inclusion on the second pastebin is actually a really good idea, which gives you back the ability to remove hazards consistently and offers you more VoltTurn chances. I have to say I like it a lot.

From rethinking it all, probably the best approach that I can see would be to use Crobat over Forretress but stick with Cobalion. I still like Rotom-H over Doublade in that slot though because it gives you a bit of a better matchup against Mamo, but it seems there may not be room to fit it in.

There's a lot of words being flung around so I'll just put it here, my "second draft" of the team would be Crobat / Houndoom / Cobalion / Mienshao / Umbreon / Heliolisk. At a glance you have a check for every single A+ -> S rank threat with decent synergy, in that nearly the entire team can VoltTurn into the appropriate check racking up hazards before setting up a Doom sweep. You also have a backup sweeping strategy with ScarfShao spamming HJK, though these days to be honest that isn't terribly reliable. Reuniclus can still give a bit of an issue depending on it's coverage move, so constant offensive pressure would need to be applied there.

I recommend testing it out and coming back with any more issues you have, because like jjoshcja mentioned it is tough to do rebuilds because there is an inherent difficulty in feeling out threats with a team you haven't built yourself. Again I apologize for missing the pretty frustratingly obvious fast-fighting weakness, and showed one of my own tendencies there (building with revenging in mind/too offensive). There's likely still some holes in the team now, but that I think is one of the difficulties in using specific, not necessarily top tier viable mons as a centerpiece, but I think with a little bit of work we'll have a sick team.

 

[GreenGan]

Whoops! Sorry guys, i was trying a team from UU sample + not much on PS these time, i thought I would't have any answer after the first I had.
First, yes you got my thesis right teal6. I do wanted to get momentum from volt turn core, then set up houndoom. (btw are you french?)
And I really like the Crobat Idea. I thought about rotom H but there was not an easy answer to rock attack (I'm too focused on the defensive synergy of the whole team). I'm gonna try the second proposal soon. Thank you very much!