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Machamp just used what?

RiptideFugitive said:
It's an improvement on how it was in advance, but it's not something overwhelmingly groundbreaking.
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Well, I guess it's a good thing nobody said it was "overwhelmingly groundbreaking" then!

lincarnate said:
I would run Naughty instead of Brave and go with 112 HP / 252 Attack / 20 Defense / 124 Speed for the EVs. That minimizes Life Orb damage (349 HP means 34 taken away by Life Orb), still maximizes attack and lets you outspeed Skarmory so it doesn't Brave Bird/Drill Peck you before you finish it off for a 2HKO. The only downside is that Machamp's decent Sp. Def takes a hit, but this set isn't meant to survive that long anyways.
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As I was writing this up I assumed a Trick Room environment since that's exactly how I use Machamp. Obviously that's not his only use though. I think most people who send out Skarm against it will most likely Whirlwind rather than attack directly. Also, if you're adding Speed EVs, you're taking away from his HP and Defense, too. With the nature change you're pretty much taking away anything bulky he has about him.
 
Loetke said:
Using that logic there wouldn't be very many threads on Smogon.
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You're right, it's not that I don't like the (old) idea, just weird reason when this idea already excisted. I know LO boosts the power, but still, it 2HKO's skarm anyway and Dusknoirs aren't too common
 
Shiny Crobat said:
You're right, it's not that I don't like the (old) idea, just weird reason when this idea already excisted. I know LO boosts the power, but still, it 2HKO's skarm anyway and Dusknoirs aren't too common
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Yeah, that's true, but then you can't change your attack for their next counter, and you're forgetting that Skarm isn't his only problem. Forretress walls Machamp relatively well, and then explodes on him. Tangrowth is just a nuisance, and it's nice to put it aside faster than normal.
 
Loetke said:
Yeah, that's true, but then you can't change your attack for their next counter, and you're forgetting that Skarm isn't his only problem. Forretress walls Machamp relatively well, and then explodes on him. Tangrowth is just a nuisance, and it's nice to put it aside faster than normal.
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Forretresses are quite common, but would you waste a spike/sr set-up poke/rapid spinner for one poke? I dunno and Tangrowth is practically NU (no the tier, it's just never used)
 
Loetke said:
As I was writing this up I assumed a Trick Room environment since that's exactly how I use Machamp. Obviously that's not his only use though. I think most people who send out Skarm against it will most likely Whirlwind rather than attack directly.
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I missed the Trick Room mention, but I'd expect most Skarm users to either Drill Peck/Brave Bird, Spikes/Stealth Rock or Roost in that order. I can't imagine one using Whirlwind unless Spikes/SR had already been fully setup.

Also, if you're adding Speed EVs, you're taking away from his HP and Defense, too. With the nature change you're pretty much taking away anything bulky he has about him.
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Well, I can't consider anything with Life Orb bulky to begin with. With Life Orb + Sandstorm (on the majority of teams) you're losing 1/6 of your health every turn anyways.
 
Shiny Crobat said:
Forretresses are quite common, but would you waste a spike/sr set-up poke/rapid spinner for one poke? I dunno and Tangrowth is practically NU (no the tier, it's just never used)
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I tested my team for about 2 months on Shoddy before I actually made it into a real team on my Diamond game, and during that time I probably came across Tangrowth about once every 3-4 battles. They may not be that common on WiFi, but in Shoddy they're everywhere from my experience.

lincarnate said:
Well, I can't consider anything with Life Orb bulky to begin with. With Life Orb + Sandstorm (on the majority of teams) you're losing 1/6 of your health every turn anyways.
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That's true, Life Orb obviously takes away survivability. Expert Belt is another option, and I don't mean to say this set is an end all be all to Machamp. You can obviously spread your EVs however you like. I'm just trying to show what has worked very well for me in the past.
 
Loetke said:
I tested my team for about 2 months on Shoddy before I actually made it into a real team on my Diamond game, and during that time I probably came across Tangrowth about once every 3-4 battles. They may not be that common on WiFi, but in Shoddy they're everywhere from my experience.
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Would you change the potential to OHKO alot of things to just O/2HKO 2 pokes that 1: can explode and do nothing more to you so the opponent loses an important poke and 2: a good but NU counter
 
Shiny Crobat said:
Would you change the potential to OHKO alot of things to just O/2HKO 2 pokes that 1: can explode and do nothing more to you so the opponent loses an important poke and 2: a good but NU counter
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I'm not sure what you're asking here. When you add Fire Blast you're not losing the ability to OHKO anything you wouldn't normally be able to. All you're doing is adding coverage to take out some stuff that would otherwise take longer to KO.

I'll be away from my computer for a bit.
 
Loetke said:
I'm not sure what you're asking here. When you add Fire Blast you're not losing the ability to OHKO anything you wouldn't normally be able to. All you're doing is adding coverage to take out some stuff that would otherwise take longer to KO.

I'll be away from my computer for a bit.
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Uhm... why? (away from comp blabla) With CB you won't be killing yourself and you get more power, then why (see the above post)
 
He's been saying that CB limits Machamps options to only one attack making him extremely predictable and that the point of this set is to surprise pokemon that would usually wall Machamp. If you don't like LO use Expert Belt. This moveset needs freedom to use any move adding variety to an otherwise predictable pokemon especialy with CB.
 
Shiny Crobat said:
Uhm... why? (away from comp blabla) With CB you won't be killing yourself and you get more power, then why (see the above post)
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Sorry, I'm watching my nephew right now, so my attention to this thread is going to be limited.

True, with CB you won't be taking recoil, and you have a little bit more power. However, you lose your flexibility, and Fire Blast doesn't get a boost from it. Also, if your opponent switches in Gengar/Mismagius/other ghost you have to switch out. With Life Orb you can stay in and OHKO with Stone Edge.
 
Loetke said:
Sorry, I'm watching my nephew right now, so my attention to this thread is going to be limited.

True, with CB you won't be taking recoil, and you have a little bit more power. However, you lose your flexibility, and Fire Blast doesn't get a boost from it. Also, if your opponent switches in Gengar/Mismagius/other ghost you have to switch out. With Life Orb you can stay in and OHKO with Stone Edge.
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Dunno, thhe ghost will KO you before you KO. And I meant you shouldn't use FB anyway.
 
And why not? It allows you to KO walls faster and with 100% accuracy your not losing anything. Like said in the first post, the fourth move is a filler.
With CB you lose variety and the surprise factor.
 
Gin said:
And why not? It allows you to KO walls faster and with 100% accuracy your not losing anything. Like said in the first post, the fourth move is a filler.
With CB you lose variety and the surprise factor.
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What suprise factor? You'll 2KO Skarm anyway with CB.
 
OK so you did KO Skarm and then in comes Mismagius. Mismaguis is now free to set up on Machamp. With LO you OHKO Missy unlike with CB.
 
Gin said:
OK so you did KO Skarm and then in comes Mismagius. Mismaguis is now free to set up on Machamp. With LO you OHKO Missy unlike with CB.
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All mismagius setting up will always use Sun first, otherwise they'll just KO you anyway, and LO gives away your strat anyway
 
Well what do lose with Machamp using Fire Blast? With it you don't need to hope for a CH. It's not like Fire Blast misses.
 
Gin said:
Well what do lose with Machamp using Fire Blast? With it you don't need to hope for a CH. It's not like Fire Blast misses.
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That's what I don't get. Why are all these people arguing against something different in a filler slot?!

By the way, just because someone posted an additional option for a Pokemon doesn't mean it's going to bring down the whole metagame. Stop with the "this isn't innovative" bullshit.
 
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