Pokémon Machamp

[LoDart210]

I prefer the confusion clause that Machamp can bring to the table. Conkeldurr doesn't have that. Stat wise it may be better than Machamp but it just can't do what Machamp can on the battlefield. Depends on how you want to use them for your team I suppose.

That and stone edge with perfect accuracy. There is a visceral pleasure in hitting with stone edge. Every. Single. Time.

I just wish he got more high power, low accuracy moves, but surprisingly, there are not a lot of physical moves that fit the bill.

He doesn't even friggin get Mega Kick, which has 120 BP although I fail to see its usefulness

 

[Wizarus]

Machamp really wants sticky web support, but if it does have it, it's a monster. Dynamic Punch, Knock off and 130ATK means nothing likes switching into Machamp. Knock off, followed by STAB Dynamic Punch before your opponent moves is extremely powerful.

 

[Stoon]

From people who actually used this thing, would you more or less agree adamant max HP/atk with leftovers is the standard way to go about this, or do you have better success doing a careful with some kind of HP/SpDef/Atk split. Also I'm most likely adding in dynamic punch/knock off for the awesome coverage it already provides, with the remaining two moves kind of a toss up between sub/ice punch/bullet punch/bulk up/stone edge, would any one like to advise what the final two moves should be because I would imagine stone edge/sub provide the most utility and coverage barring gliscor, because nothing really comes to mind that would appreciate any of the other attacks on a switch in/having a sub to bypass first.

 

[DarkPhoton]

From people who actually used this thing, would you more or less agree adamant max HP/atk with leftovers is the standard way to go about this, or do you have better success doing a careful with some kind of HP/SpDef/Atk split. Also I'm most likely adding in dynamic punch/knock off for the awesome coverage it already provides, with the remaining two moves kind of a toss up between sub/ice punch/bullet punch/bulk up/stone edge, would any one like to advise what the final two moves should be because I would imagine stone edge/sub provide the most utility and coverage barring gliscor, because nothing really comes to mind that would appreciate any of the other attacks on a switch in/having a sub to bypass first.

HP and Atk, with 44 Speed Evs. It allows you to outspeed Porygon 2, Swampert, Empoleon, and couple others I can't remember. And 44 EVs makes no difference when removed when removed from either your attack or HP. I've been testing a Guts set with Cross-Chop instead of Dynamic Punch which is outclassed by Conkeldurr and loses machamps niche but in terms of surprise its crazy - will report my findings tomorrow and tell you guys exactly why.

 

[LoDart210]

From people who actually used this thing, would you more or less agree adamant max HP/atk with leftovers is the standard way to go about this, or do you have better success doing a careful with some kind of HP/SpDef/Atk split. Also I'm most likely adding in dynamic punch/knock off for the awesome coverage it already provides, with the remaining two moves kind of a toss up between sub/ice punch/bullet punch/bulk up/stone edge, would any one like to advise what the final two moves should be because I would imagine stone edge/sub provide the most utility and coverage barring gliscor, because nothing really comes to mind that would appreciate any of the other attacks on a switch in/having a sub to bypass first.

That may be the standard but its subpar. It's AV set, while not as successful as conkeldurr's should be the standard set to run, the set is somewhere here in the thread.

Another set that should be considered is the sub bulk up set with the HP, sp def investment.

 

[Stoon]

Yeah I read through the pages, and was more or less referencing the sub/bulk up set but wanted to see if someone's tried both and preferred one over the other for a specific reasons, but I'll probably make two machops and make both sets to experiment with

 

[LuvdiscSushi]

Just a quick nitpick GarchompPit, your not spacing after punctuation and it's bugging my OCD >.<

Other than that, it's a well writen OP, however I agree with everything Kejmur said. Machamp hasn't changed which means it's not very viable for OU, and in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he dropped a tier this gen. Talonflame, Togekiss, Reuniclus, and Alakazam are just a few things in OU that destroy him.

It's ironic that one of Machamp's problems is it's increasing predictability, and yet one of it's best checks is Talonflame, who has been spamming the same attack for months now. I'd also add Aegislash to the list of things that hurt machamp, although knock off is cool if you can avoid kings shield.

 

[LuvdiscSushi]

With the ever-growing presence of flying types that don't actually carry flying moves, Machamp's devastating Stone Never-Miss is as useful as ever. And being able to confuse things at will allows him to force switches and gain valuable momentum. Not to mention excellent bulky HP.

Talonflame and Fairy-types put a damper on all of this, but not enough to prevent him from doing his job consistently. The original fighting king is still a beast to contend with. His ResTalk set should still do pretty well, too, with the shift to bulky offense.

Plus bullet punch is awesome for fairies, who all seem to be more specially defensive, bar mawile.

 

[Stoon]

While I don't deny BP's utility for the revenge kill, I feel like the two scenarios machamps stands in regards to a fairy is predicting the switch in, but knock off/dynamic or even stone edge would be just as good in terms of damage/utility (priority wouldnt matter in this case) despite resisted, or you're staying in to take out the fairy and trying to get a revenge kill with BP IF it's weak enough. If it's not weak enough machamp is swallowing one move at the fairy's disposal and I feel like you're better off just firing a nuke like stone edge or cause a confusion hax for a better opportunity. The priority is probably better off for a different member to make use of machamps wall breaking prowess and coverage(that you would gain from not using BP as well) unless you've designated machamp to be the sweeper himself.

Also to continue from my above post, it seems that machamp really benefits on paper more from AV as he can stomach crucial 2HKOs to either 3HKOs, or maintain enough HP to be a nuisance before he dies. Alternatively, using the careful spread with max HP/sp def. it basically mimics the AV benefits but you lose damage and some HP that you hope to regain through bulk ups, confusion hax, 2-3 turns of left overs which is probably feasible under sub/hax.

I personally have no experience with the bulk up sets (with leftovers) or even the bulk up/sub set(with leftovers) combined but has the lack of said coverage really deterred machamps wall breaking power? The one thing I noticed from damage calc was that while using adamant, you can probably afford to spend say 80 points or more to say sp. def to have some benefit without deterring his power to do over 50% HP to threats.

Feel free to correct any of this or if I missed out key benefits of certain sets, I just want to really see the benefits of certain sets before I make one on my DS lol. I feel like machamp should be seen as a mon of it's own, not really in conkeldurrs shadow, because I play him for the sake of dynamic punch utility and personal preference.

 

[GarchompPit]

While I don't deny BP's utility for the revenge kill, I feel like the two scenarios machamps stands in regards to a fairy is predicting the switch in, but knock off/dynamic or even stone edge would be just as good in terms of damage/utility (priority wouldnt matter in this case) despite resisted, or you're staying in to take out the fairy and trying to get a revenge kill with BP IF it's weak enough. If it's not weak enough machamp is swallowing one move at the fairy's disposal and I feel like you're better off just firing a nuke like stone edge or cause a confusion hax for a better opportunity. The priority is probably better off for a different member to make use of machamps wall breaking prowess and coverage(that you would gain from not using BP as well) unless you've designated machamp to be the sweeper himself.

Also to continue from my above post, it seems that machamp really benefits on paper more from AV as he can stomach crucial 2HKOs to either 3HKOs, or maintain enough HP to be a nuisance before he dies. Alternatively, using the careful spread with max HP/sp def. it basically mimics the AV benefits but you lose damage and some HP that you hope to regain through bulk ups, confusion hax, 2-3 turns of left overs which is probably feasible under sub/hax.

I personally have no experience with the bulk up sets (with leftovers) or even the bulk up/sub set(with leftovers) combined but has the lack of said coverage really deterred machamps wall breaking power? The one thing I noticed from damage calc was that while using adamant, you can probably afford to spend say 80 points or more to say sp. def to have some benefit without deterring his power to do over 50% HP to threats.

Feel free to correct any of this or if I missed out key benefits of certain sets, I just want to really see the benefits of certain sets before I make one on my DS lol. I feel like machamp should be seen as a mon of it's own, not really in conkeldurrs shadow, because I play him for the sake of dynamic punch utility and personal preference.

Like I said in a previous post where I was making a comparison between Conk and Champ you can see that Conk is superb to Machamp in a lot of aspects but like you said, Machamp should be seen as a standalone Pokemon. It can Dynamicpunch whatever with its amazing ability, it has respectable bulk, it can semi-effectively run a lot of sets not including its standard one and more. As for you using one in XY, go ahead. I have been using one for a lot of battles (with the standard set) and it does work (most of the times). :]

HP and Atk, with 44 Speed Evs. It allows you to outspeed Porygon 2, Swampert, Empoleon, and couple others I can't remember. And 44 EVs makes no difference when removed when removed from either your attack or HP. I've been testing a Guts set with Cross-Chop instead of Dynamic Punch which is outclassed by Conkeldurr and loses machamps niche but in terms of surprise its crazy - will report my findings tomorrow and tell you guys exactly why.

I would really like to see what you did with the Guts set. Please save a bunch of replays that you had with Champ and post them here with a brief review of the set. It will help not only me complete the analysis but also other members, so they can see how effective the set might be. Thanks in advance!

 

[LuvdiscSushi]

While I don't deny BP's utility for the revenge kill, I feel like the two scenarios machamps stands in regards to a fairy is predicting the switch in, but knock off/dynamic or even stone edge would be just as good in terms of damage/utility (priority wouldnt matter in this case) despite resisted, or you're staying in to take out the fairy and trying to get a revenge kill with BP IF it's weak enough. If it's not weak enough machamp is swallowing one move at the fairy's disposal and I feel like you're better off just firing a nuke like stone edge or cause a confusion hax for a better opportunity. The priority is probably better off for a different member to make use of machamps wall breaking prowess and coverage(that you would gain from not using BP as well) unless you've designated machamp to be the sweeper himself.

Also to continue from my above post, it seems that machamp really benefits on paper more from AV as he can stomach crucial 2HKOs to either 3HKOs, or maintain enough HP to be a nuisance before he dies. Alternatively, using the careful spread with max HP/sp def. it basically mimics the AV benefits but you lose damage and some HP that you hope to regain through bulk ups, confusion hax, 2-3 turns of left overs which is probably feasible under sub/hax.

I personally have no experience with the bulk up sets (with leftovers) or even the bulk up/sub set(with leftovers) combined but has the lack of said coverage really deterred machamps wall breaking power? The one thing I noticed from damage calc was that while using adamant, you can probably afford to spend say 80 points or more to say sp. def to have some benefit without deterring his power to do over 50% HP to threats.

Feel free to correct any of this or if I missed out key benefits of certain sets, I just want to really see the benefits of certain sets before I make one on my DS lol. I feel like machamp should be seen as a mon of it's own, not really in conkeldurrs shadow, because I play him for the sake of dynamic punch utility and personal preference.

That's a fair argument. BP only barely out-damages Dynamic Punch against fairies, and doesn't have the awesome side effect. As far as revenge killing fairies goes, there are definitely safer, faster alternatives to Machamp. I'll be using Knock off from now on. With regards to the bulk up sets and coverage, I haven't actually used the sub set but 100% accurate stone edge seems like a great move to pass up. Substitute misses out for me because of stone edge's OHKOs on Talonflame and Volcarona, while gen 6 knock off is useful against so much. Of course, if anyone finds substitute useful against other specific threats, please let me know.

 

[Stoon]

Yeah he brings so much utility and wall breaking power with his access of knock off/stone edge/Dpunch. I like using sub because of the occasional sucker punch or setting one up and knowing the enemy is trying to status you or if you know they can't break your sub and they're forced to watch you bulk up or get a dpunch to the face. I use a rain team so I have several things that can more or less check dragons/gliscor with ice moves so I can afford to go without ice punch luckily.

Edit: It's too bad no one wrote up a machamp OU analysis, I was actually looking there first to see if they recommended some good sets and if others had some thorough experimentation with him. I suppose as good as dpunch is, it's not enough to grant it an OU analysis (or maybe its something that'll come soon haha)

 

[KingMawile]

Not sure if this is legal on smogon, but i have encountered this set while in the battle maison, and it nearly destroyed my team. It was something like this:

Machamp @ Choice scarf
Ability: No guard
EV's: 252 ATK, 252 SPE, 4 DEF
Adamant/ Jolly nature
Dynamic punch
Stone edge
Ice punch
???????

Not sure about the last move, but you could put poison jab or something for coverage.

 

[Hub5]

Something really interesting i found was for machamp with 252 hp /252 attack evs to KO a mega gardevoir with the power of assault vest!

252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 284-336 (73.9 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

A timid mega gardevoir moonblast with max investment is a 2 hit KO, while in turn machamp can survive, stone edge, then follow up with bullet punch for the kill.

252+ Atk Machamp Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 170-201 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Machamp Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 136-162 (48.9 - 58.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

 

[Wobbyble]

Something really interesting i found was for machamp with 252 hp /252 attack evs to KO a mega gardevoir with the power of assault vest!

252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 284-336 (73.9 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

A timid mega gardevoir moonblast with max investment is a 2 hit KO, while in turn machamp can survive, stone edge, then follow up with bullet punch for the kill.

252+ Atk Machamp Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 170-201 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Machamp Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 136-162 (48.9 - 58.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

"252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 284-336 (73.9 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO"
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Moonblast
Mega Gardevoir Moonblast.


...ok.

 

[GarchompPit]

"252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 284-336 (73.9 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO"
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Moonblast
Mega Gardevoir Moonblast.

...ok.

It has the same power as Psychic and Mega Gardevoir is part Fairy type..

 

[Hub5]

Act

It has the same power as Psychic and Mega Gardevoir is part Fairy type..

Actually moonblast is 95bp while psychic is 90bp so moonblast actually does more...

Also machamp I think is pretty hard to wall, he carries the power of confusion and the ability to remove an item, that's pretty scary. I've even done as much as KO'ing a slowbro by dynamic punching it on the switch and hitting it with 2 knock offs combined with a turn of confusion. That's pretty impressive.

 

[Wobbyble]

are you guys fucking serious

 

[HackerKing]

Machamp really wants sticky web support, but if it does have it, it's a monster. Dynamic Punch, Knock off and 130ATK means nothing likes switching into Machamp. Knock off, followed by STAB Dynamic Punch before your opponent moves is extremely powerful.

It's actually really scary to come in to a Late-Game machamp with Sticky Web. The biggest problem with Machamp is that Aegislash and Talonflame are pretty much perfect counters. Talonflame laughs at Bullet Punch and razes with Brave Bird. Aegislash on the other hand can take a huge chunk of Machamps HP out with Shadow Sneak. Given the Machamp usually 2HKOs most pokemon, damage starts to stack up pretty quickly.

On the upside, Dynamic Punch's confusion is pretty funny. People get so pissed if they hit themselves.

 

[canno]

It has the same power as Psychic and Mega Gardevoir is part Fairy type..

Act

Actually moonblast is 95bp while psychic is 90bp so moonblast actually does more...

Also machamp I think is pretty hard to wall, he carries the power of confusion and the ability to remove an item, that's pretty scary. I've even done as much as KO'ing a slowbro by dynamic punching it on the switch and hitting it with 2 knock offs combined with a turn of confusion. That's pretty impressive.

He means that you should be using Hyper Voice on Mega Gardevoir because Pixilate makes it superior in every way to Moonblast except for PP I guess.

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 350-414 (91.1 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

 

[GarchompPit]

He means that you should be using Hyper Voice on Mega Gardevoir because Pixilate makes it superior in every way to Moonblast except for PP I guess.

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 350-414 (91.1 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Oh I completely forgot about that. I apologize Wobbyble!

 

[Hub5]

He means that you should be using Hyper Voice on Mega Gardevoir because Pixilate makes it superior in every way to Moonblast except for PP I guess.

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 350-414 (91.1 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

A mere 72 special defense investment can remedy this problem while still retaining the 2hko

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 320-380 (83.3 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While machamp in turn:

184+ Atk Machamp Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 163-192 (58.6 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

184+ Atk Machamp Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 132-156 (47.4 - 56.1%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO

That Mega Gardevoir hyper voice is the strongest fairy move in the ou metagame! That's pretty boss.

 

[Hub5]

Machamp can also check other strong special attackers such as alakazam and mega charizard y, making him an overall great check to special attackers in general

252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Machamp in Sun: 310-366 (80.7 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega charizard y's most brutal attack. A modest overheat in the sun, fails to OHKO.

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 299-354 (77.8 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

An Alakazam's STAB psychic with a life orb, fails to OHKO as well. In return Machamp can OHKO both of these with stone edge and knock off, respectively.

"Not a lot of stuff changed for our beloved buffed friend..." Psssh, Assault Vest has changed him and let him check a ton of his previous special attacking counters and made him into a true champ!

 

[GarchompPit]

Added the Choice Scarf set! (ScarfChamp)

 

[kefkakrazy]

I have a Brave Machamp on my cartridge that I run with an AV or Band. A couple of Pokemon that I tend to rotate in and out of teams, including a Slowbro that's my go-to physical wall for Talonflame-vulnerable teams, sometimes mount Trick Room for support. The Dynamic Punch/Stone (No)Miss combo tends to wreck quite a few things, and Brave Machamp is pretty darn fast in TR.

I actually prefer the AV, because with it he can avoid 1HKOs from quite a few Pokemon that Machamp can then cripple with a Dynamic Punch. I really don't like being choice-locked on this guy, because it never feels like the extra power of the CB justifies being locked into Dynamic Punch and being unable to fish for switch-ins with Stone Edge.