The lynch would have come down to either Hitmonleet or me anyway just because Hitmon was so convinced that I was mafia and he wasn't going to change his mind which would have given mafia the ability to hammer
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Mafia 101 NOC: game over (mafia win)
- Thread starter Asek
- Start date
The lynch would have come down to either Hitmonleet or me anyway just because Hitmon was so convinced that I was mafia and he wasn't going to change his mind which would have given mafia the ability to hammer
I think a better way to do this is just have a game with both "tutees" and "tutors" playing but don't have a whack setup like the majority of NOC games have been were last year. If you mix players who have some semblance of what they are doing with players who are more or less "beginners" I think you're more likely to see a game that goes places and isn't "idle" (although I'm not really sure this game was all that idle).
Like I'm still of the opinion that Walrein's NOC was a really good game and the best NOC of 2016 in that it gave opportunities for newer places to make critical decisions regarding the game and participate actively while avoiding the rut the newer games tend to get into (namely uhh wat talk about) since you have ppl who have an idea of how to play, allowing
"beginners" to get into the game at their own pace.
Like I'm still of the opinion that Walrein's NOC was a really good game and the best NOC of 2016 in that it gave opportunities for newer places to make critical decisions regarding the game and participate actively while avoiding the rut the newer games tend to get into (namely uhh wat talk about) since you have ppl who have an idea of how to play, allowing
"beginners" to get into the game at their own pace.
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I got Haruno, he inspected King.
I was kind of looking forward to getting someone who might need or want more advice but thems the breaks.
You can't save idlers they're just gonna idle even in a mixed experience game because the wallposters crowd them out and they don't know what to do. Giving new players someone to talk to is something I'm always gonna recommend, though
I was kind of looking forward to getting someone who might need or want more advice but thems the breaks.
You can't save idlers they're just gonna idle even in a mixed experience game because the wallposters crowd them out and they don't know what to do. Giving new players someone to talk to is something I'm always gonna recommend, though
I'm not talking about individual users idling, I'm talking about the state of the game as being "idle," meaning not much productive discussion is taking place
(which again I'm not super sure if this actually happened itg). You're exactly right about individual idlers though; they can't be saved and doing so is pointless. Which is why I think mixing experienced and beginner players is best. Experienced players can take the initiative, the game never gets in that weird state where nobody knows what to do / say, and other users can get into the game at the pace they want to. Obviously, this is contingent on the experienced users not being bullies / go after those players, but I think that would be a much better way of running a "beginner" game then having all new players.
Also keeping games simple. That is always good too for beginners imo. This setup was fine in that regards I think.
e: i feel like i'm not being super clear about what i'm referring to when the game is "idle" - i'm talking about a situation in which we have players who, given something to talk about, will do that, but are otherwise stuck in that they don't know what to do or say which i think is common in RVS. these players are not the sort of players that will idle regardless of what happen but who maybe need a discussion starter by someone to get them to get playing.
(which again I'm not super sure if this actually happened itg). You're exactly right about individual idlers though; they can't be saved and doing so is pointless. Which is why I think mixing experienced and beginner players is best. Experienced players can take the initiative, the game never gets in that weird state where nobody knows what to do / say, and other users can get into the game at the pace they want to. Obviously, this is contingent on the experienced users not being bullies / go after those players, but I think that would be a much better way of running a "beginner" game then having all new players.
Also keeping games simple. That is always good too for beginners imo. This setup was fine in that regards I think.
e: i feel like i'm not being super clear about what i'm referring to when the game is "idle" - i'm talking about a situation in which we have players who, given something to talk about, will do that, but are otherwise stuck in that they don't know what to do or say which i think is common in RVS. these players are not the sort of players that will idle regardless of what happen but who maybe need a discussion starter by someone to get them to get playing.
Lmfao
This game was 10 pages long. The best player in the world could not be expected to perform with that little info. Seriously, there's a difference between lurking and idling, and nocs are never going to be competitive here if games are this dull. Texas and biggie were my biggest scum reads by far reading this game, I don't remember one single shubaka post and not gonna lie I didn't know he was in the player list (in the game I'd have probably noticed how little of an impression he made). Overall unfortunately this game was bleh, I'm not too fond of the setup though regardless. Hopefully people put more time into nocs in the future and threads pick up in activity a lot more. I cba rereading the thread but put of the newbies Martin made a good impression to me, props to him. I don't really consider haruno a newbie since he's been playing longer than me but lol.
And people: yes, the king lynch was abysmal. However, king definitely could have avoided it there, I was really disappointed in his defeatist attitude. As I read it my want for him to he lynched increased simply on policy.
Fwiw here's some tips for newbies who want to learn more: have an experienced player play a REGULAR NOC with you, as opposed to one where everyone has a tutor. Try watching a game live and developing your own reads without personal bias, and recalibrate your reading based on the flips. Mafia is a game I find you learn with experience, either playing or spectating. Read strategy and discuss all you want but getting your hands dirty is how to improve.
To me King borders on blacklist territory the way he plays some games. Refuses to talk to his team, decides to get stubborn and not cooperate or interact with anyone, lets himself get mislynched...
He's had several games where he just sort of weighs his team down by his play and sets himself up for an easy mislynch. King I really don't get what goes through your head during these games. Do you really feel that people will townread you or not lynch you if you take up this IDC, LYNCH ME attitude? Do you feel this is supposed to clean you by making you look so careless? If you didn't care to defend yourself when people randvote or suspect you, why did you join? I'm just not sure why you think this is good behavior for a mafia game, it's pretty disrespectful to your fellow villagers who have no clue what to make of you - are you scum trying to fake it or are you town who fsr doesn't care to scumhunt or defend yourself? Like it's hard to tell you how to improve your play without knowing if you even want to or if you think letting yourself get mislynched is a good use of that playerlist spot. We need the WHY behind it.
I hope the newbies in this game had a good time and encourage them to join a normal Smogon NOC and play alongside some of the tutors. I think you will learn more about how to fit into a Smogon NOC when you have someone pressing you for answers and driving conversation who sort of knows what do. But I hope this was a good starter! Don't be too discouraged if your scumreads were off, you learned what scumtells you THOUGHT were solid, actually weren't, so you did gain something from it and can better attempt to suss out mafia next time.
He's had several games where he just sort of weighs his team down by his play and sets himself up for an easy mislynch. King I really don't get what goes through your head during these games. Do you really feel that people will townread you or not lynch you if you take up this IDC, LYNCH ME attitude? Do you feel this is supposed to clean you by making you look so careless? If you didn't care to defend yourself when people randvote or suspect you, why did you join? I'm just not sure why you think this is good behavior for a mafia game, it's pretty disrespectful to your fellow villagers who have no clue what to make of you - are you scum trying to fake it or are you town who fsr doesn't care to scumhunt or defend yourself? Like it's hard to tell you how to improve your play without knowing if you even want to or if you think letting yourself get mislynched is a good use of that playerlist spot. We need the WHY behind it.
I hope the newbies in this game had a good time and encourage them to join a normal Smogon NOC and play alongside some of the tutors. I think you will learn more about how to fit into a Smogon NOC when you have someone pressing you for answers and driving conversation who sort of knows what do. But I hope this was a good starter! Don't be too discouraged if your scumreads were off, you learned what scumtells you THOUGHT were solid, actually weren't, so you did gain something from it and can better attempt to suss out mafia next time.
Will post full thoughts later.
Never had an investigative role before in noc so that was a first. Blazade told me from the getgo the wincon was clear 3 villagers since honestly I do not think I'd have been able to identify more than 1 mafia and if I'm being generous 2.
To start I would always assume for balance issues that there must always be at least one notable mafia player/team but since I viewed tutees as just extensions of their tutors, that was unfeasinle. So I had nothing to work with.
Day 1: I absolutely despise set up speculation mostly because it almost always leads to nothing useful + no way to really get a mafia bar really obvious tells. Held true here, hitmonleet impeding discussion early on by doing the whole protecting cop bullshit which was bad and everyone just got on that train which further detracts from anything meaningful and it ended up leading me to just blame whydon since he funneled something the hardest which was suspicious. Ended day with king doing some stupid stuff.
Night 1: forced to inspect king because I'm almost certain he was the day 2 lynch and at least I'd be able to c/d if it was the proper thing to do. Shows up as town unsurprisingly to me.
Day 2: rofl this was absolutely horrendous with king not even trying to defend himself and got the masses to just lynch him and I couldn't glean anything meaningful except get added suspicion onto FH for how hard he was trying to force the lynch on king. King got lynched unsurprisingly and I realized we were fucked pretty much at this point.
Night 2: inspected FH, got killed off. Nothing to see here
Day 3: was dead didn't read. Will catch up.
Even in hindsight and knowing shubaka/Texas/biggie are scum since I asked immediately after death and reading their posts, I still would not have been able to pinpoint them as scum since the usual "go for idlers" strat fails when we had such a clear target each lynch. This further makes me despise set up speculation and most day 1 (with no n0) interactions in noc because it will most likely show nothing meaningful and rather detracts us from getting anywhere which this game showed. If anything I feel for the purpose of tutoring, such a basic set up is honestly just not good since I feel most players would not be able to do anything meaningful due to being vanillagers and having a very very small margin of error. There was simply no way for village to accurately scum hunt which kinda made it more pointless. Oh wells. Will post a more readable version when it's not 3am ty
Never had an investigative role before in noc so that was a first. Blazade told me from the getgo the wincon was clear 3 villagers since honestly I do not think I'd have been able to identify more than 1 mafia and if I'm being generous 2.
To start I would always assume for balance issues that there must always be at least one notable mafia player/team but since I viewed tutees as just extensions of their tutors, that was unfeasinle. So I had nothing to work with.
Day 1: I absolutely despise set up speculation mostly because it almost always leads to nothing useful + no way to really get a mafia bar really obvious tells. Held true here, hitmonleet impeding discussion early on by doing the whole protecting cop bullshit which was bad and everyone just got on that train which further detracts from anything meaningful and it ended up leading me to just blame whydon since he funneled something the hardest which was suspicious. Ended day with king doing some stupid stuff.
Night 1: forced to inspect king because I'm almost certain he was the day 2 lynch and at least I'd be able to c/d if it was the proper thing to do. Shows up as town unsurprisingly to me.
Day 2: rofl this was absolutely horrendous with king not even trying to defend himself and got the masses to just lynch him and I couldn't glean anything meaningful except get added suspicion onto FH for how hard he was trying to force the lynch on king. King got lynched unsurprisingly and I realized we were fucked pretty much at this point.
Night 2: inspected FH, got killed off. Nothing to see here
Day 3: was dead didn't read. Will catch up.
Even in hindsight and knowing shubaka/Texas/biggie are scum since I asked immediately after death and reading their posts, I still would not have been able to pinpoint them as scum since the usual "go for idlers" strat fails when we had such a clear target each lynch. This further makes me despise set up speculation and most day 1 (with no n0) interactions in noc because it will most likely show nothing meaningful and rather detracts us from getting anywhere which this game showed. If anything I feel for the purpose of tutoring, such a basic set up is honestly just not good since I feel most players would not be able to do anything meaningful due to being vanillagers and having a very very small margin of error. There was simply no way for village to accurately scum hunt which kinda made it more pointless. Oh wells. Will post a more readable version when it's not 3am ty
i idled enough that y'all couldn't tell who i was, but was active enough to not get subbed+get that double lynch. if i were town i probs could've pointed out that when we have 3 more townies than scum, killing two players makes -6 sense, but thank goodness it worked out this time.
rssp was a good tutor for our group, i think texas and i know mostly how to play scum, and i would've much preferred to be town in this, so i could learn what other people are expecting of me. good job from host for the idea, but no sub for leprechan made endgame sorta ezpz
rssp was a good tutor for our group, i think texas and i know mostly how to play scum, and i would've much preferred to be town in this, so i could learn what other people are expecting of me. good job from host for the idea, but no sub for leprechan made endgame sorta ezpz
Wow. That was a surprise. I'm probably going to type up my full thoughts later, but some quick things.
Man, I'm sorry about hard pushing your lynch. I just felt so confident since the cop tunneled you hard at the end. Still, I had a very enjoyable argument with you.
I'm surprised as well about Shubaka being mafia. I had suspected Texas and biggie at different times, but I had honestly never thought about him. I guess calculated idling does that to you.
Having essentially one less town than normal probably handicapped us, as did the lack of contribution from a lot of people.
LightWolf was a great tutor, and helped me to actually step up and pseudo-lead.
Also, I'm curious, why didn't scum just hammer? I spotted biggie on a lot of times when I was posting.
Honestly, I think the village's big downfall was probably a lack of actual discussion. We had trouble scumhunting because there wasn't very much information or posts to actually scumhunt with. Sadly, we weren't the McGuyvers of Mafia.
Overall, while I lost, this was very enjoyable.
Man, I'm sorry about hard pushing your lynch. I just felt so confident since the cop tunneled you hard at the end. Still, I had a very enjoyable argument with you.
I'm surprised as well about Shubaka being mafia. I had suspected Texas and biggie at different times, but I had honestly never thought about him. I guess calculated idling does that to you.
Having essentially one less town than normal probably handicapped us, as did the lack of contribution from a lot of people.
LightWolf was a great tutor, and helped me to actually step up and pseudo-lead.
Also, I'm curious, why didn't scum just hammer? I spotted biggie on a lot of times when I was posting.
Honestly, I think the village's big downfall was probably a lack of actual discussion. We had trouble scumhunting because there wasn't very much information or posts to actually scumhunt with. Sadly, we weren't the McGuyvers of Mafia.
Overall, while I lost, this was very enjoyable.
We took the 50:50 gamble, and by virtue of Focus Blast and Stone Edge, we miss.
I actually had the feeling that since both of you were ok with a double lynch, then both of you were town (See my last post).
Also, Texas was a scumread of mine because he seemed like a driving force in lynches, also he got very strong town read from everyone, so I just dropped it. Whoopsie.
Gronkasaurus Rex If I got that spelling right, helped me quite largely, providing insight.
I enjoyed myself, and learned that being a non-helpful town is nearly just as bad as scum. Thanks for the exp.
I actually had the feeling that since both of you were ok with a double lynch, then both of you were town (See my last post).
Also, Texas was a scumread of mine because he seemed like a driving force in lynches, also he got very strong town read from everyone, so I just dropped it. Whoopsie.
Gronkasaurus Rex If I got that spelling right, helped me quite largely, providing insight.
I enjoyed myself, and learned that being a non-helpful town is nearly just as bad as scum. Thanks for the exp.
This game showed the issue I've seen with the other time we made a game for just newer (and less wallposty) players. The game kinda just didn't go anywhere because there was nobody invested enough in driving the game forward. I definitely could have done more for that day 1, but have legitimately never understood how to properly play day 1.
I agree with the general consensus that tutors aren't a bad concept, but I think having them in a regular game would end up working out better for all parties.
On the other hand, the attempt to meta read into how tutors would let their tutee play was kinda hilarious to me, considering that the tutor has zero power to control the play if the tutee. That just seemed like terrible discussion all around to me.
I agree with the general consensus that tutors aren't a bad concept, but I think having them in a regular game would end up working out better for all parties.
On the other hand, the attempt to meta read into how tutors would let their tutee play was kinda hilarious to me, considering that the tutor has zero power to control the play if the tutee. That just seemed like terrible discussion all around to me.
I'm curious why you thought that as I was careful not to be tied to a lynch as a leading candidate. I wasn't on the bus for the d1 and 2 lynches and only posted support for those while pushing for a hitmonleet lynch
I really considered you as one of those behind-the-scenes force in the lynches, though after a while, I dropped the accusation cause EVERYONE, well maybe not everyone, but majority was towning you. And this last day, I sorta just went overboard and overanalysed things. Also, I suspected Leet for a while but when both Whydon and him started to argue, and both fine with a double lynch, then they were most likely both town, and when you pushed for the Leet lynch, I found it suspicious. Then Leet posted you as Town, so yeah, the possibility of both of you being scum is slim, both of you town is slim as well, with a <25% chance each.Sorry if this explanation isn't enough but it is 1 AM here XD. I just like hypothesizing every possibility, no one is assured scum or town, so I just run everything.
Leet actually named you here, despite being a strong town lead~
Here. Meaning that his last post was either a last ditch effort to scum read you, or to break the tie. More likely the latter but..
Yes, pushing for a Leet lynch even if it was happening. Made me suspicious too late and actually agreed with Leets you+Whydon. End of the day, never went through it. Pushing for a probable lynch already was a scummy act imo, but I wondered, if you were scum, why break the tie? A town conservation.effort? or saving a teammate?
I was expecting town to figure out at some point that a double lynch was dumb lol
As for hammer it would have been pretty silly for us to pile on and then leprechan's slot gets subbed lol
As for hammer it would have been pretty silly for us to pile on and then leprechan's slot gets subbed lol
Plz don't think someone is town by bandwagoning. Ty
And how did any town think a double lynch was fine in fucking pseudo LYLO? You're still fucked unless you hit 2 scum......
9 players. 3 scum, 5 town, 1 idle town
Lynch 2 town you get
6 players. 3 scum 2 town + 1 idle town = loss
Lynch 1 town/mafia
6 players. 2 scum, 3 town + 1 idle town= loss because LOL you're getting a village hammered the next day
Lynch 2 mafia
6 players. 1 scum, 1 idle town, 4 town = easy town win
Why would anyone think you would hit two mafia? That was a free af lynch on whoever made the tie.
At least lynching one means you enter actual LYLO instead of losing outright + if there truly is an idle then they'd be sub. IF someone is idling and subs happen and that person isn't subbed then odds are they're mafia and participating in their chat which is still easy as fuck lynch.
Town picked the worst option day 3 and we had no reason to win after king lynch and especially not after making the terrible play of a double lynch even if we hit two mafia.
9 players. 3 scum, 5 town, 1 idle town
Lynch 2 town you get
6 players. 3 scum 2 town + 1 idle town = loss
Lynch 1 town/mafia
6 players. 2 scum, 3 town + 1 idle town= loss because LOL you're getting a village hammered the next day
Lynch 2 mafia
6 players. 1 scum, 1 idle town, 4 town = easy town win
Why would anyone think you would hit two mafia? That was a free af lynch on whoever made the tie.
At least lynching one means you enter actual LYLO instead of losing outright + if there truly is an idle then they'd be sub. IF someone is idling and subs happen and that person isn't subbed then odds are they're mafia and participating in their chat which is still easy as fuck lynch.
Town picked the worst option day 3 and we had no reason to win after king lynch and especially not after making the terrible play of a double lynch even if we hit two mafia.
Whether or not there's good discussion is a real crapshoot sometimes but a couple things:
Really the only way to punish systematic idling is to do what Walrein did and sub everyone the fuck out if they don't talk (I personally heavily dislike this solution because that game and Fire and Ice changed out half the playerlist making them pretty fucking unreadable imo).
If you don't do that then people tend to get scared of talking if they're new because content gets picked apart and they have to defend themselves while no one can truly justify pushing an idler. It's easier to observe than contribute, especially if you think you're wrong. It's also easy to tell experienced players to lay off a little when someone clearly isn't confident but at the same time newbscum exists and people need to play the game their way.
I think saying there needed to be experienced players driving discussion is an overreaction, like maybe it would have made for a better game for us to read but it was a good start for them imo. The real problem was King basically slamming the door on the discussion by insisting on being nothing more than a warm body since he's like "all asek asked for is another player I didn't think he wanted me to do anything lmao"
I think a combination of better overall culture in a mixed experience game and the option to allow newer players to ask for a tutor would make beginner games better but you really only get 40 page day 1s when something retarded happens that starts a shitstorm of discussion.
Really the only way to punish systematic idling is to do what Walrein did and sub everyone the fuck out if they don't talk (I personally heavily dislike this solution because that game and Fire and Ice changed out half the playerlist making them pretty fucking unreadable imo).
If you don't do that then people tend to get scared of talking if they're new because content gets picked apart and they have to defend themselves while no one can truly justify pushing an idler. It's easier to observe than contribute, especially if you think you're wrong. It's also easy to tell experienced players to lay off a little when someone clearly isn't confident but at the same time newbscum exists and people need to play the game their way.
I think saying there needed to be experienced players driving discussion is an overreaction, like maybe it would have made for a better game for us to read but it was a good start for them imo. The real problem was King basically slamming the door on the discussion by insisting on being nothing more than a warm body since he's like "all asek asked for is another player I didn't think he wanted me to do anything lmao"
I think a combination of better overall culture in a mixed experience game and the option to allow newer players to ask for a tutor would make beginner games better but you really only get 40 page day 1s when something retarded happens that starts a shitstorm of discussion.
Even on ms they don't hit 40 pages with two week deadlines usually (like it only happened in one game I've been in due to a ton of subs day 1 and general active group). Hitting 10 pages for 3 days and 40 pages for one day is very very different. However, 15-20 pages day 1 is definitely reasonable and what I'd expect. The bottom line is town cannot lynch mafia with 3 pages of posts, it just won't happen without some seriously bad mafia. It's towns job to make the thread active though, not mafia. However, and this is a lot at haruno because in basic he was mad he was subbed when idling was his "optimal play": mafia should meet the same activity minimums as town. You should not be allowed to stay in the game idling regardless of alignment. It is not hard to post, just get over the hump. You can look stupid. You can be wrong. It is much better than being nothing. I personally have a document with a list of idlers who are last priority for any game I host because I just can't stand it.
How to post d1 tips: just post lol. Nobody is any less clueless than you as town (excluding masons etc), but you still need to spark discussion. D1 is about generating discussion since it's starting from nothing. RQS is hilarious but better than nothing, RVS can actually have some really early info and it's important for generating discussion. The first post in the game can't be a scum team solve, you need to get the whole thread posting first. Just post as much as possible without just one word spams (lol) and you're good. There is no magic secret to day 1, it's a crap shoot, but without an active d1 full of crap there's no crap to disect on day 3 or 4 when the player list is much smaller. Also, day 1 reads are generally garbage. If a town posts a reads list and gets killed n1 don't railroad the lynches off of it or even read much into it, sure there's pointers but trying to look at who scum killed and why is a crap shoot. It's day 1, their reads are just as baseless as your own. I don't really remember where I'm going with this post but I'm hungry so this is the end!
How to post d1 tips: just post lol. Nobody is any less clueless than you as town (excluding masons etc), but you still need to spark discussion. D1 is about generating discussion since it's starting from nothing. RQS is hilarious but better than nothing, RVS can actually have some really early info and it's important for generating discussion. The first post in the game can't be a scum team solve, you need to get the whole thread posting first. Just post as much as possible without just one word spams (lol) and you're good. There is no magic secret to day 1, it's a crap shoot, but without an active d1 full of crap there's no crap to disect on day 3 or 4 when the player list is much smaller. Also, day 1 reads are generally garbage. If a town posts a reads list and gets killed n1 don't railroad the lynches off of it or even read much into it, sure there's pointers but trying to look at who scum killed and why is a crap shoot. It's day 1, their reads are just as baseless as your own. I don't really remember where I'm going with this post but I'm hungry so this is the end!
shitposting a bunch early d1 can be a good strategy, actually
it gets people talking, and you can start to get a feel for who feels comfortable (read: towny) or uncomfortable (read: not towny) posting
but yeah agree 100% with josh in that more posting is always good for town, and that mafia should definitely be required to actually play the game (i stand by my decision to sub out haruno)
it gets people talking, and you can start to get a feel for who feels comfortable (read: towny) or uncomfortable (read: not towny) posting
but yeah agree 100% with josh in that more posting is always good for town, and that mafia should definitely be required to actually play the game (i stand by my decision to sub out haruno)
