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Proposal Make SPL 10 Slots / Adding VGC to SPL

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is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis a Past WCoP Champion
12 starters per team is way too many for the current state of the website. It made sense when it was proposed, and we can reevaluate it when Generation 10 comes out, but next SPL should absolutely be 10 slots.

Here are the options:
-2 SV OU, 1 SS OU, 1 SM OU, 1 ORAS OU, 1 BW OU, 1 DPP OU, 1 ADV OU, 1 GSC OU, 1 RBY OU
-1 SV OU, 1 SS OU, 1 SM OU, 1 ORAS OU, 1 BW OU, 1 DPP OU, 1 ADV OU, 1 GSC OU, 1 RBY OU, 1 Classic Bo5

Big players are leaving. The influx of new players that would typically come with a new generation was shot by TPCi’s release schedule. I think a Classic Bo5 slot can be a good way to interest those typical big name players that have more recently chosen to sit out or manage if they are surveyed and show interest. Otherwise, the first proposal is ideal, simply cutting two SV OU slots for an even 10.

Thank you. I love you goldmason.
 
I think classic bo5 is bad unless you can convince me this would otherwise entice people like ABR and Empo to play. I really don’t think anyone wants to prep for 5 tiers every week.

A random rotating format of retired SPL tiers could be funky. BW UU in week 6? ORAS NU in week 4?

I do support champs OU. I’m all for dropping 4 SV OU at this point.
 
We are in the point that we kind of need to do something aren't we?

Like Star said in another post talking about another Starry suggestion to change SCL format "The site / its tournaments weren’t really built for a 5 year long gen."

Other sub communities added/changed formats of their tours to offer new experiences for their players because the feeling that SV is taking forever is pretty much agreed by everyone.

I'm pulling a few signups numbers from SV gen.

SCL 3 - 630
SCL 4 - 549
SCL 5 - 538
SCL 6 - 513

SPL 14 - 661
SPL 15 - 644
SPL 16 - 618
SPL 17 - 622
SPL 18 - ?

So numbers back off the fact we have indeed a less interested community in taking part in those tours. (which is a completely normal trend)

I've been saying for a while that we need to do something between generations SV and WW to give people something new to grind for besides CG.

Is SPL the place for that? I don't know. But would make sense to offer something new in the big stage. In the end for the main 6v6 singles are the officials that give validation to the formats.

If anything add something new to so the tour community has something new to have fun. I don't know if the answer is Champions OU, Bo3/5 Fairy and Bo3/5 Classic slots, or turning SPL into a tier-pick tour. Unfortunately, I don't have the answer to the problem, but I'd love to see something new for the next SPL more than just cutting slots.
 
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Hijacking this thread w/ a proposal from the TDs.

We agree that theres quite a bit of burnout / staleness with the state of SV and the generation lasting a record length of time. Instead of dropping down to 10 slots though, we want to bring up the potential of adding VGC to the upcoming edition of SPL and keeping it 12 slots. (3x SV / 1x VGC)

VGC has been one of the most popular format on PS for a while now and has had a massive increase in popularity with the IRL circuit as well. With recent tournaments like NPA moving to Smogon, ChampsPL including two VGC slots, and the general revival of the VGC tournament circuit on the site theres all the signs that VGC in our official circuit should be a question of when not if. This upcoming SPL gives us a chance to test out VGC in a 'lower risk' opportunity due to the aforementioned burnout / staleness with SV and other non-champions tiers.

We acknowledge this proposal isn't without its risks as well. There have been plenty of concerns around adding VGC back to our official tournaments that we still don't have the answers to, but at this point we likely won't have these answers unless we actually take a shot and see how it does in our circuit. The main concerns being:
  1. The lack of potential top VGC players signing up for Smogon tournament, leaving us with a perceived 'lower quality' pool.
  2. Players not wanting to use their best teams for a tournament like this, preferring to keep anything they perceive as the 'best' for tournaments like regionals and ICs
  3. Players needing to be subbed out / unable to play when there are regionals during the weekend
There are other concerns as well that I'm sure will be brought up in the thread, and there are also counters for all the above concerns as well. Like ChampsPL being able to support 2x VGC slots with plenty of bigger VGC names signing up. We would also likely want to put out a survey / gauge the interest in this thread from VGC players on people who would sign up, what they think of the possibility of it being added, and anything else.

Overall this is in no way a decision that is set in stone and we will be heavily reliant on community interest / thoughts before moving forward with this. But considering we still have a few months before SPL and in general there has been a lot of interest in adding VGC to our tournaments we see it as a good time / place to bring it up. So please if you feel strongly about this on one side or another, if you are a VGC player who would be interested in SPL please post / let us know what you think.

We would be doing Bo3 with locked teams and OTS like how VGC is played in official events and the tier would shift to any new regulations the week after they are on Champions, same as would be for any lower tier if there was a shift. We also are definitely not sold one way or another as well, mainly want to gauge community interest in this in the first place before taking any further steps.

Also VGC is the only tier we are considering adding to this edition of SPL. Any post that suggest adding another tier / making the case for any others will be deleted. This thread should only be to discuss either moving SPL to 10 tiers (2sv being the only option, we won't go down to 1sv), staying at 12 with 3sv and 1vgc or 4sv. Thank you.
 
I was talking with Rubyblood the other day and I do agree that 4 SV at this point is too much ...

With that said, I feel like we are at a turning point on Smogon with the release of champions because we are not sure what the battle mechanics for Gen 10 will be and it might just be relegated to Champions. For the first time, I feel like the release of a new generation is not going to guarantee a huge, lasting uptick of users and interest. With that real possibility in mind, VGC is just an inevitability really, and will become either impossible or against our interest in keeping it out.

With that mindset established, I do think it's a great opportunity this year to experiment with VGC in SPL. Plus, I like keeping SPL as 12 players; it's the biggest tour and having a massive team is part of the appeal. Plus, signup drops are not as severe as other tournaments and I would assume increased signups with VGC around.

As for the potential drawbacks, I see where they're coming from but I ultimately disagree with all of them. I don't think people will be hesitant to use their best teams in SPL in lieu of regionals, and if anything, it incentivizes them to use those teams in SPL as practice for the regionals. SPL is great, but you'd rather win regionals than your w5 game. And it's not like the main VGC players that usually win regionals will be in SPL or watching SPL. As for weekends, I think the VGC culture will be understanding if someone has to go to regional and agree to play early.
 
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Although I agree with the op, I'd like to propose sum too :
- Leaving the choice to players to agree on playing their set wether on bo1 or bo3 each week.
- Considering bo3 STour and bo3 masters.
- For the idea of a classic set, making it bo3 (gen 1-5) when both players get to ban one of them
- Reducing SV to at least 2, 1 if needed.
- Including VGC but there should be 2 slots so the players dont feel isolated on their teams.

Ultimately if there are too much struggle to find a good compromise with all that, separate the SPL in 2 tournaments with one carrying champions/fairy gen and the other one the old gens but I don't know yet how to make something like this different from ROAPL/OUPL i'm just throwing the idea and hoping for someone to shikamaru it into something good
 
This tournament has been sorely lacking in elitism competition for the past few seasons.

I think we’re on the decline, and making this tournament too easily accessible kills the very essence of this tournament.
It doesn’t help the SPL, which used to be known as the most prestigious. All the players who started ten years ago all dreamed of playing in the SPL because it was on a whole different level back then,which is quite paradoxical, since the singles matches are harder now because the average player is better than the average player of the past, thanks to the tremendous work of the contributors to the resources and the investment in each tier, as Ruffles did for ORAS.



So, talking of elitism, how can we restore this tournament to its rightful place? Quite simply by reducing the SV slot from 4 to 1. Honestly, we’re now in the fifth year of the SV, and it no longer makes sense to have so many slots, especially given how many of the matches are of very poor quality nowadays.

It's great to have new talent, but that doesn't necessarily help these players have a positive experience, since very few of them will play the entire season or have a good record. It also motivates these players to try harder in the side tournaments, which are perfect for improving once you start getting really into competitive play.

Another point that supports my argument is that veteran and respected players on this site eventually stop playing the SPL or only play very occasionally before disappearing, which means there’s always room for new players. In fact, there are a lot of new talents who will be able to play in this SPL since, in addition the rest of the tiers will always have only one slot( RBY->SS)
I also agree with adding VGC for the reasons mentioned below. I think we need to stop being for or against VGC simply because we play 6v6. We’re forgetting that we’re Pokémon fans first and Smogon players second. Trying both formats in the same tournament would be a great experience for both VGC and 6v6.
I’m not sure if it’s necessary to have two VGC slots, since managers will generally just have one support Pokémon in addition to their starter like yone mentioned

The format I'm proposing :

SV
SV VGC
SS
SM
ORAS
BW
DPP
ADV
GSC
RBY


This format highlights the VGC's good player base while limiting the SPL to 10 slots, meaning fewer players and a more elite competition.
Players who aren't selected because of this format will have an extra incentive to improve and earn their spots in the futur. That's what we used to do back then.



I can also see the arguments for including a Classic Bo5 or an ST Bo3, we need to see to what extent it’s possible to incorporate them. I think these formats would really elevate the tournament, because I can see those slots being filled by very strong players who have dominated in the past, like ABR, Empo, McM, Tricking, and many others.
Players who aren't selected because of this format will have an extra incentive to improve and earn their spots in the futur. That's what we used to do back then.

The best players have always been a big part of the hype surrounding a tournament, so putting these formats is an incentive to bring them back seems like an excellent idea to me.

I can also see the arguments for including a Classic Bo5 or an ST Bo3, we need to see to what extent it’s possible to incorporate them. I think these formats would really elevate the tournament, because I can see those slots being filled by very strong players who have dominated in the past, like ABR, Empo, Tricking, and many others.

Adding these formats is therefore a way to bring back the top players who have made their mark on these tournaments, and let’s not forget that these players have been a major part of the hype surrounding a tournament; a mix of veterans and newcomers or the best players of the actual period is an excellent combination to make the SPL as prestigious as it deserves to be.


( With 10 slots, it's also a good time to try out best-of-3 matches to make the tournament as competitive as possible, especially in GSC)


I would be happy to discuss this respectfully, pce.
 
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I'd love to entretain the idea of Champions OU or VGC into the tournament (maybe both all things considered). I think in these times in which Smogon is heavily struggling to keep player interest due to SV's staleness, the community would greatly benefit from inviting players from external communities.

I speculate that the arrival of a new generation might not suffice, so building a foundation with the champs/vgc community might net us a positive. I'm trying to think of a case in which WW isn't PS! playable and Smogon has to perhaps resort to promoting its own metagames (Champs OU / Natdex). But well, all I can say is that we'll cross that bridge at some point.

I'm definitely in support of VGC / Champs and as few SV slots as possible! Nice thread.
 
I like 10 slots for sure, seems obvious, I don't need to repeat the reasons everyone else has mentioned.
However I think we should be cautious about adding VGC. I played through the era of Doubles in SPL, and every year there was always the exact same problem - the tier and player get isolated from the rest of the team. The managers buy a starter and backup for the tier (or just a starter and invite a helper), and those two prep together all season with zero input from anyone else. Nobody else can get involved because we simply don't know anything about the meta, like not even enough to play a test game, let alone have any insight about prep. This works the other way too, the Doubles/VGC player doesn't know the first thing about any of the singles tiers either. That's nobody's fault either, it's just the way it is.
I think that VGC is absolutely the pinnacle of competition in Pokemon right now, but SPL is not the place for it. What makes SPL special is that it is a team tournament, and introducing a tier with a completely distinct playerbase does not encourage teamwork.
 
Commenting here as ChampsPL was mentioned and I'm happy to hear that it is viewed a success. However, we didn't just just say lets roll the dice and see what happens with two VGC slots. Instead, there was extensive planning / coordination with VGC leadership and active moderation efforts. Futhermore, BSS and Champions OU had very valid arguments for the second VGC slot and BSS leadership graciously forwent arguing for a second slot when they did not have to. A lot of work went into making the tournament a successful cross section collaboration that showcased the various ways that we all engage with our hobby instead of the 'crabs in a bucket' mentality that is unsettlingly pervasive. While there has surely been far more discussion than what has been made public, the initial post does make me wonder if ChampsPL is simply viewed as a success to use as a springboard instead of critically examining why it was successful and iterating on it.

We made it clear from the get go that we both valued and wanted VGC and BSS to be included in ChampsPL and the moderation team lacked experience with nor was part of the VGC community. Consequently, we had extensive conversations with VGC leadership and they lead those conversations and provided a list of recommendations. While we couldn't follow through on everything, we did follow through on a lot and some are pertinent to SPL. For example:

  • Doubles tiers in predominately singles tournaments, especially with one slot are often isolating and feel like being on an island. This is compounded by managers frequently lacking doubles experience and not caring enough to draft or solicit adequate support. While managers certainly can and should support these slots, they frequently don't, resulting in players needing to draw support from the VGC community or an existing network rather than their team.
    • A second slot alleviates this a ton, but we also committed to prioritizing VGC experience during the manager selection process if all else was equal.
  • A CA prize not being particularly motivating in part due to one already being guaranteed in the biggest Smogon VGC tournament
    • It isn't exactly a secret that there are a lot of good players that will join seemingly every tournament with a CA prize. This is, unsurprisingly, less of a motivator in VGC due to official support provided by Game Freak. The level of competition tends to be a stronger motivator than the chance at some pixels.
  • How VGC being an afterthought instead of being included from the ground up heavily impacts the perception of the tour within the VGC community and can impact the quality of signups
That last point is particularly pertinent and if not respected creates a feedback loop that culminates in the first bullet in Shiloh's post. That was the biggest thing that stood out to me after reading it a couple of times. While we didn't know if we'd be successful, we at least hoped that our efforts would make it clear to the VGC community that the Champions section values and wants to include VGC (and BSS) and is willing to put in the work to make that happen. If the efforts failed, we at least tried.

When I read the post I struggle to see why high level VGC players that are not already engaged with Smogon tournaments would find it compelling enough to sign up. The message isn't that VGC inclusion in SPL is because we value it as a format, but that Smogon formats are having enough issues that we are willing to consider it when we otherwise wouldn't. That message is amplified by the conspicuous absence of any mention of potential VGC inclusion beyond this edition of SPL. That framing is immensely impactful as it means we are pitching a functionally one time tournament instead of something longer term and those details matter. It doesn't seem that this would be appealing to VGC players whilst also signaling to [x] OU players that this edition of SPL is less prestigious.

At the end of the day I support inclusion and VGC in SPL is a great idea that has a lot of potential long term benefits for both communities. However, I don't think they are likely to materialize unless the VGC community is treated with respect it derserves instead of an afterthought.
 
RBY - SM
Replace SS with a STour Bo3 as to my understanding SS has the least passionate player base and I scoff at the people who have called it the most competitive gen because it's not close at all. This is a way to add an SV slot without adding an SV slot
1 SV slot
1 VGC slot
I think 12 slots would be kind of forced because you want A Second VGC slot so the people playing in the tournament don't end up hating it and from there you add either Champions OU or like SV BLITZ Bo3 if the community isn't lame. Or Champions OU Blitz Bo3. As long as managers draft people that don't need to download ram and have a stable internet connection blitz should be the most hype.

I don't think 12 slots is much of an issue, and I certainly don't think its avoidable, but if there are 10 slots I think it'd be ridiculous to not replace SS with a bo3 (it's ridiculous either way).
 
OK stop.

I retract my Bo5 suggestion. I am against any nonsense suggestions like VGC or ChampsOU or Draft or tier picking or whatever.

Every time one of these format threads gets made, the same song and dance happens with these stupid suggestions. There will never be a strong consensus toward any of them. Stop wasting everyone’s time.

These are the options:
-Current format
-2 fewer SV OU slots

Thank you. I love you goldmason
 
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OK stop.

I retract my Bo5 suggestion. I am against any nonsense suggestions like VGC or ChampsOU or Draft or tier picking or whatever.

Every time one of these format threads gets made, the same song and dance happens with these stupid suggestions. There will never be a strong consensus toward any of them. Stop wasting everyone’s time.

These are the options:
-Current format
-2 fewer SV OU slots

Thank you. I love you goldmason
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we need to include vgc in it both to encourage some quality signups from outside the community and also because a lot of the community is going to start playing vgc after the bots are better than them so its a good transition for them and might also help make them stay. Having VGC forces 12 slots because you want 2 vgc slots and there are 9 generations and there is no issue with blitz or champions ou (you literally can't play most (any?) of our formats on cartridge anyways. I have't read the thread thoroughly but I don't think anyone is suggesting like monotype or smth
 
So I'm sure there will be plenty of pushback from people for a variety of reasons, but I do think adding VGC, assuming it isn't automatically treated as a one-off that leads to nothing else, would be of benefit. I'm not gonna make a long post because others in the VGC community have a lot they plan to say, but I figured I should express my support here. CHAMPL went exceedingly well, and I along with the rest of the Smogon VGC team would do everything in our power to help this go the same, be it advertising or other forms of support.
 
fully agree with diogo that adding any sort of classic bo5/stour bo3/masters bo3 should be a nonstarter if we're not gonna consider allowing gentleman's bo3s for the folks that want them.

while i think that the addition of VGC or some other form of doubles into SPL could be cool, i'm also not sure how we'd keep up with say, a new regulation being introduced mid-tour or something like that, especially with how tpci has been handling dropping mons into champs in waves. not too dissimilar from tier shifts, but that's not really something SPL has had to deal with for a long time given its nature as an all OU tournament.

fully agree that we shouldn't really consider bo5 unless there's a strong consensus that it's going to catch the big fish we're looking for because no one really wants to do all that prep for a nine to thirteen week season. Bo3 stour (especially as a replacement for an SV slot so it's kind of a pseudo-SV) or bo3 masters would be fine probably.

i do think that we should be extremely careful about whatever we do decide to implement here and make sure that it's not just a mquick one-off to salvage activity and signup numbers before we get right back to business as usual in gen 10 though, would hate to get a new audience of people interested in SPL and then totally break their knees when we're back to 4x WW OU
 
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