Makin' it Rain: UU Rain discussion

[Banedon]

You are not losing to rain because it's broken or because your bad, chances are you're losing because you aren't preparing for it properly.

And I never said Light Clay doesn't help dual screens? I was quite clearly pointing out that Light Clay was not a "necessity" on DS teams because it simply just effects how often you need to send in your dual screener, and Leftovers helps quite a bit with that. This is like how Damp Rock effects rain; it makes it longer and it does help a bit, but the difference between Rain as a whole with or without Damp Rock is quite negligible. Kabutops is just as broken.

Eh the team I used this UU period had defensive Venusaur, Milotic and two dual screeners ... can you honestly say I'm not preparing for rain? :( I think it's far more likely than I'm bad as opposed to I'm not preparing for it.

As for Light Clay, it's really blindingly obvious. In fact it's so obvious I'm left wondering why you can logically think otherwise (no offense by the way - I'm just guessing that you must be thinking logically since that's what you've done elsewhere). Having Light Clay means you've got more time in between when you have to put up screens again. If you're using screens to support your sweepers, this gives you more time to sweep. If you're using screens as a general defensive measure (e.g. against rain) then having to set them up less often = you've got more time to keep Pokemon in that can disrupt / threaten the other team. If you're using screens to cover a Baton Pass, then having Light Clay means you can cover for more boosts, Taunts, and more Pokemon in the chain.

In all this, of course Light Clay helps! In fact it helps so much that I think it is indeed crucial to DS teams. The more often you need to send in your dual screener, the more likely it is to get worn down. Also the more often you need to send in your dual screener, the more chances your opponent has to put his gameplan into play. It's the exact same case with rain. Look at the log I posted a few pages ago. Can you honestly say that there'd be no difference if FlareBlitz didn't have Damp Rock, and if he did?

 

[Heysup]

Eh the team I used this UU period had defensive Venusaur, Milotic and two dual screeners ... can you honestly say I'm not preparing for rain? :( I think it's far more likely than I'm bad as opposed to I'm not preparing for it.

Again, it's not that your bad, it's more that your probably not playing correctly if you're genuinely preparing for it. I mean you telling me you're preparing and actually preparing for it (playstyle and team-wise) are two different things.

As for Light Clay, it's really blindingly obvious. In fact it's so obvious I'm left wondering why you can logically think otherwise (no offense by the way - I'm just guessing that you must be thinking logically since that's what you've done elsewhere). Having Light Clay means you've got more time in between when you have to put up screens again. If you'r using screens to support your sweepers, this gives you more time to sweep. If you're using screens as a general defensive measure (e.g. against rain) theen having to set them up less often = you've got more time to keep Pokemon in that can disrupt / threaten the other team. If you're using screens to cover a Baton Pass, then having Light Clay means you can cover for more boosts, Taunts, and more Pokemon in the chain.

The broken record effect. Reread my post.

tl;dr Light Clay and Damp Rock are almost completely compensated for by the reliability granted by Leftovers. Albeit, this is more true for DS teams than Rain, but it still applies.

In all this, of course Light Clay helps! In fact it helps so much that I think it is indeed crucial to DS teams. The more often you need to send in your dual screener, the more likely it is to get worn down. Also the more often you need to send in your dual screener, the more chances your opponent has to put his gameplan into play. It's the exact same case with rain. Look at the log I posted a few pages ago. Can you honestly say that there'd be no difference if FlareBlitz didn't have Damp Rock, and if he did?

Yes. When I played FlareBlitz yesterday, if you completely ignored the hax involved the only way FlareBlitz could (and often did even though it was haxy) ever beat me would be Kabutops. Only Kabutops. Regardless of how long the rain is in effect, the sole reason for his victories (again, ignoring hax) was Kabutops. If an offense team can deal with every other Rain sweeper, then a balance / stall team can, to be honest.

 

[Banedon]

I quote you:

I was quite clearly pointing out that Light Clay was not a "necessity" on DS teams

And I'm telling you it's a necessity:

In fact it helps so much that I think it is indeed crucial to DS teams.

Now respond to the arguments I made in my post. The arguments for Light Clay carry over almost unchanged to that for Damp Rock. I listed down 7 reasons why Damp Rock provides an advantage; did you read them?

PS: Leftovers is great, but compared to the extra three turns of rain / screens, I know which I'd pick any time.

 

[flashbolt]

Heysup:

When I played FlareBlitz yesterday, if you completely ignored the hax involved the only way FlareBlitz could (and often did even though it was haxy) ever beat me would be Kabutops. Only Kabutops. Regardless of how long the rain is in effect, the sole reason for his victories (again, ignoring hax) was Kabutops. If an offense team can deal with every other Rain sweeper, then a balance / stall team can, to be honest.

This is like how Damp Rock effects rain; it makes it longer and it does help a bit, but the difference between Rain as a whole with or without Damp Rock is quite negligible. Kabutops is just as broken.

Are you proposing we try to ban kabutops next vote, instead of damp rock?
Thats probably gonna be harder than getting froslass banned.

 

[Heysup]

And I'm telling you it's a necessity:

I don't think it is. Remember your opinion isn't a fact.

Now respond to the arguments I made in my post. The arguments for Light Clay carry over almost unchanged to that for Damp Rock. I listed down 7 reasons why Damp Rock provides an advantage; did you read them?

You listed 7 situations that, well, don't really make much of a difference. Sending in something like Uxie once due to not surviving two Facades from something like Swellow (43.5% - 51.7%) without Leftovers < being able to set up 10 turns of screens. So if you want concrete numbers, think of it that way. Leftovers will likely get you 10 turns of Dual Screens while Light Clay will get you 8. Swellow is just an example.

Heysup:

Are you proposing we try to ban kabutops next vote, instead of damp rock?
Thats probably gonna be harder than getting froslass banned.

Absolutely. I think that, while Rain is good, Kabutops is the only thing that's moderately too strong. I'd actually be willing to say that with Rain support, Swords Dance Kabutops is too good. It's even too good without Rain staying in effect. It only really needs 2-3 turns of Rain to end the match and eliminate all its would-be counters.

And are you suggesting that I don't propose this because it would be "difficult"? I don't understand that.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Heysup, I swept you with Kabutops multiple times because your team was weakest to Kabutops. There were multiple opportunities for me to SD up on you (Froslass), at which point nothing on your team could live through the combination of Rock/Water attacks. Other teams are weak to my Ludicolo; their core is weak to a combination of Water/Grass. They often tell me "Ludicolo is the only broken swift swimmer". Really, it depends on your team. Kabutops is no more broken than any other (good) swift swimmer, your team is particular is just very weak to it.

 

[Heysup]

How is it that every team I make, including balance and even a semi-stall (Gasp) I made only has trouble with Kabutops and nothing else? Relatively I mean, they don't have much trouble with rain.

Sorry I just don't buy it when evidence is supporting Kabutops and not Ludicolo.

Everything about would-be Rain Dance counters is compromised only by Kabutops. SD Ludicolo really doesn't cover anything the same way Kabutops does.

 

[flashbolt]

Quagsire, poliwrath, toxicroak all do well against Kabutops but not against Ludicolo, Ludicolo does far better vs Tangrowth, increasingly the most popular check. Lud does better vs bulky waters, it is less weak to fighting priority.

Absolutely. I think that, while Rain is good, Kabutops is the only thing that's moderately too strong. I'd actually be willing to say that with Rain support, Swords Dance Kabutops is too good. It's even too good without Rain staying in effect. It only really needs 2-3 turns of Rain to end the match and eliminate all its would-be counters.

And are you suggesting that I don't propose this because it would be "difficult"? I don't understand that.

Not for a second, im undecided, if anything imleaning to banning Kabutops. But im just warning you that it will be far harder than banning froslass because it arguably less justified and Kab is probably more popular. Just warning you.

 

[shrang]

Eh the team I used this UU period had defensive Venusaur, Milotic and two dual screeners ... can you honestly say I'm not preparing for rain? :( I think it's far more likely than I'm bad as opposed to I'm not preparing for it.

Venusaur and Milotic are good Rain checks, and yeah, I agree with Heysup you probably just aren't playing correctly. It's like having a check for Gyarados but not using it properly and blaming Gyarados for being broken. Banedon, like you suggested before, I played against Flare's Rain team (I didn't actually challenge him, just met him on the ladder) with my (you could say) balanced UU team, and I won 1-0 (It was very close). My team has a few Rain checks on it (Though I didn't even intend for them to be Rain checks), consisting of a Lead Supporting Kabutops (SR, Stone Edge, Aqua Jet, Rapid Spin, mainly to beat Froslass), Scarf Rotom and Hitmontop, and to be honest, I probably would have won by a much bigger margin if he didn't Healing Wish his Kabutops late-game (That was a GREAT move, Flare). There wasn't much hax either (Barring the crit I got on Qwilfish on turn one, but I still would have been able to deal with it anyway, as Kabutops would enjoy Rain, and if he set up Spikes, I would have just Spun them away). The difference is knowing HOW to play against Rain, while having checks for it is important too.

Anyway, on the topic of nominating Kabutops as a Suspect, I think it's completely reasonable. Kabutops is probably the only Pokemon which I consider to be broken on a Rain team (Ludicolo comes 2nd, but I think it's manageable). Dual STAB with a +2 Speed and possibly a +2 Attack makes him extremely powerful. However, I have shown before in this thread (Final post of page 9), that Kabutops is deadly enough even without Rain. I'll repost it:

All calculations are done for a +2 Jolly 252 Atk LO Kabutops (Pokemon bolded are those Kabutops can beat 1-1):
*Altaria (Can't really threaten Kabutops much anyway)
*Blaziken (Must win speed-tie for Vacuum Wave)
*Drifblim
*Kabutops itself
*Mesprit
*Venusaur
Milotic (Doesn't usually run Max speed anyway)
Toxicroak
Qwilfish
Nidoking
^Cresselia (Banned now)
Hitmonlee (Jolly +2 LO Aqua Jet still OHKOs 40/0 variants, although Hitmonlee can Mach Punch, will not kill if Kabutops is in good health)
^Porygon-Z (Banned now)
^Moltres
Rotom
Uxie (Doesn't usually run max speed)
Leafeon
Houndoom
Drapion
Arcanine (Aqua Jet OHKOs Morning Glory Arcanine after Stealth Rock, even after Intimidate)
Scyther (Aqua Jet OHKOs after Stealth Rock, but that's kinda whatever, as Scyther takes 50% from it anyway)
Mismagius (Aqua Jet OHKOs sweeper sets after Stealth Rock)
Froslass (Can kill with +2 Stone Edge, but you'll probably end up Destiny Bonded)
^Raikou
Ambipom (Has slight chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, and will definitely OHKO after SR and Spikes, however, that's probably a bit too much. Also gets Faked Out first turn, which Kabutops resists)
Sceptile
Dugtrio
Alakazam
Swellow

^ Denotes a suspect
* Denotes Pokemon Kabutops speed-ties with

So, as you see, Kabutops can rape quite a lot of Pokemon faster than it even without Rain, and this is not to mention those poor fools that he outspeeds. He is still sweeping a big portion of the metagame, even without Rain. So, is Kabutops broken?? Possibly, and Rain does push him over the edge, yeah.

As you see, with just the slightest support (SR), Jolly Kabutops can rampage a team even without the Rain, about half the Pokemon faster than it fall to it, and most of the Pokemon he outspeeds would be OHKO by SD'd Waterfall or Stone Edge. That fits the Offensive Characteristic in my opinion, he is able to sweep a big proportion of the metagame with little to no effort even without Rain (Rain just pushes him over the edge). So I really can't see why we cannot justify banning Kabutops or at least nominating him as a Suspect (Don't forget, in LC Tangela was banned because it was most broken under the Sun, but it's not like Heat Rock was banned from the tier).

 

[Bluewind]

It's tough to find a diehard counter for a poké when you consider it has a SD up in all situations.

 

[FlareBlitz]

If we assume that Kabutops has an SD up, we have to assume assume that Ludicolo and Qwilfish also have an SD up. In that case, Ludicolo is definitely better than Kabutops, because it can beat literally everything Kabutops can beat (defensively speaking, it does get outrun by some scarfers kabutops would outspeed). The difference is, Kabutops is beaten by Poliwrath, Quagsire, Toxicroak, and Hitmontop, even with an SD up. Ludicolo beats all of those easily. And of course, there's Qwilfish, who can take out Tangrowth (who both Kabutops and Ludicolo lose against, although they both massively weaken it) and can also beat everything Kabutops/Ludicolo can beat. It even has the ability to boom on counters. Honestly, there's no reason Kabutops is better than those two. Different, yes. It has its own strengths. But better, no.

 

[Ekanselttar]

60/105/70 is pretty bad in the way of defensive stats, especially with weaknesses to ground, electric, fighting, and especially grass (all of which are stupidly common), and 80 base speed is no good on a sweeper with those defenses and types without Agility. Kabutops is far from broken outside rain.

 

[shrang]

Ludicolo: His poor Speed and lack of priority really lets him down, 10 Base Speed is important. If we just consider without Rain, he really isn't much of a threat at all. The reason why Kabutops is a better Swords Dancer is because of his higher Speed and access to priority. If Rain were to stop, Ludicolo is not going to be a very good sweeper at all. Stuff like Swellow and Moltres would easily outspeed and revenge him (Unlike Kabutops, who would just Aqua Jet them to death).

Qwilfish: Again, without the Rain, he isn't that good. He will be outsped and suffer massive damage from anything that outspeeds it. He gets Explosion, which is cool, but using Explosion usually means Qwilfish will not sweep.

So, while in the Rain, Ludicolo and Qwilfish might be close to Kabutops' ability to sweep (I still think Kabutops is better simply because his higher power and Speed), outside of the Rain, they fall behind, and by a lot.

EDIT: Narulyg, I'm aware Kabutops' defenses aren't top not notch, and 80 Base Speed isn't the highest either, but you forget that Kabutops has priority to abuse. I have shown that he can beat about half the Pokemon that outspeed him (Refer to my previous post). Think of him like Lucario, with better defenses but crappy typing. Low Speed and ordinary Defense is not going to set back Lucario, neither is it going to set back Kabutops. Yes, like Lucario, Kabutops does have good counters outside of the Rain, but unlike Lucario, Kabutops does have the oppotunity to become extremely powerful in the Rain. My point is, Kabutops is possibly dangerous enough outside the Rain already (As I have shown), and Rain makes it a bit much to handle. He is a better sweeper than Ludicolo and Qwilfish because of his ability to sweep inside and outside of Rain.

 

[Banedon]

I don't think it is. Remember your opinion isn't a fact.

You listed 7 situations that, well, don't really make much of a difference. Sending in something like Uxie once due to not surviving two Facades from something like Swellow (43.5% - 51.7%) without Leftovers < being able to set up 10 turns of screens. So if you want concrete numbers, think of it that way. Leftovers will likely get you 10 turns of Dual Screens while Light Clay will get you 8. Swellow is just an example.

It's showing you that your "broken record" statement is because you didn't read my post properly. As for the Swellow example, you realize the situation works against your argument as well right: if you had 8 turns of dual screens, then when you switch Uxie in Reflect could still be up, or you might not have to switch Uxie in in the first place. I'll agree there are times when Leftovers make a difference, but there are far more times when Light Clay make a difference.

By the way having to send in Uxie lets your opponent's Kabutops get the chance to SD. FlareBlitz swept me once because of that (he actually got to +4, since I had to put up Reflect + switch out). Just an example showing how Light Clay can help more than Leftovers.

I think Kabutops is the most dangerous of the rain sweepers simply because it has access to priority. However, outside of rain it is managable - if it hasn't gotten a SD up, there're lots of Pokemon that can outspeed him and kill him, e.g. Moltres.

PS: shrang I think Bluewind has a point when he says it's hard to beat a Pokemon if you always assume it has SD up. If Linoone has already Belly Drum'ed, how many safe switch-ins are there? Linoone would sweep through every Pokemon not part Steel type, or part Ghost with Sucker Punch ... yet it doesn't fulfil offensive characteristic, does it?

 

[shrang]

I'm not just talking about Rain, I'm talking about outside of Rain as well. If Kabutops just switched in on your Chansey suddenly when it's not raining (Who I am just going to assume for now does not have Thunder Wave), what would you do?? Kabutops' defenses aren't stellar, but they are good enough to come into stuff that doesn't threaten it and SD up. SD is a one turn setup, so therefore I consider it to be little to no support (Rain + SD is 3, so that isn't). I'm going to assume the Kabutops user is smart enough not to try and SD on something that's going to kill it. The Linoone example isn't a very good one because of the fact that it is hard to set up in the first place (Yeh, go ahead and Belly Drum while I just poke you and you will die). Kabutops' defenses are good enough to find a turn in which he can SD up and sweep (I compare him to Lucario because I think it is a pretty legitimate comparison, while Lucario has better typing, Kabutops has better physical defense, so he doesn't always have to sneak in via resistances, Lucario has a stronger priority, but Kabutops' one can hit some faster Pokemon for Super Effective damage).

 

[PK Gaming]

Kabutops has the speed but does he have the versatility? There are a couple of pokemon that stop Kabutops cold as stated earlier
(Quagsire, Poliwrath, Hitmontop etc)

But with Luddicolo there is literally nothing. His coverage also fantastic with Waterfall/Seedbomb/Move of choice.
Luddicolo's typing is also infinitely better being weak to 2 very uncommon attacking types.

If any RD sweeper were to be put up for BL I would definetely choose Luddicolo.

 

[Heysup]

Banedon, if you lost because you let Kabutops set up, is that because Rain is broken or because you weren't mentally prepared for Rain? Common sense only dictates that you would not try to set up screens against an SDer that would likely sweep your team since it can set up Swords Dances and basically ignore your screens after +4.

And your argument doesn't address my points. You basically said "so?" when I gave you the numbers. Common sense, again, dictates that more opportunities to set up = better.

This brings me to my response to the Kabutops posts.

The only real way to stop Kabutops is to actually not let it set up. Ludicolo on the other hand is easily stopped by a handful of Choice Scarfers and priority users on offense, and some defensive Grass-types that aren't beaten by Ludicolo's weak Ice Punch as well (for stall).

The two things that give Kabutops the huge edge that it has are:

Aqua Jet (Qwilfish has, but doesn't need)
Stone Edge
High Attack stat
Speed (Skillfish also has this)

Stone Edge eliminates so many of the "would-be" defensive checks to rain teams (for example, Venusaur who Ludicolo will not OHKO with Ice Punch). Aqua Jet fucks with almost all priority users.

Additionally, as you notice I'm sure, the Pokemon you listed are absolutely great evidence for Kabutops' dominance. These just show that Kabutops' counters are practically not viable. Qwagsire is NU and Toxicroak is not what anyone would call common in UU. Hitmontop is basically the only "valid" example you've given.

When you take Kabutops counter list and compare to say, SD Ludicolo, what I'm saying makes much more sense. I can think of so many off the top of my head who at least stop Ludicolo's sweep (via KO, Sleep, or Thunder Wave), but I'm sure you can look at the tier list too (it's late I'd rather not spend 10 minutes making a list of 20-30 Pokemon in the top 50-60). Remember you need to include the 10+ Pokemon who can use priority to beat Ludicolo.

 

[Banedon]

I'm not just talking about Rain, I'm talking about outside of Rain as well. If Kabutops just switched in on your Chansey suddenly when it's not raining (Who I am just going to assume for now does not have Thunder Wave), what would you do?? Kabutops' defenses aren't stellar, but they are good enough to come into stuff that doesn't threaten it and SD up. SD is a one turn setup, so therefore I consider it to be little to no support (Rain + SD is 3, so that isn't). I'm going to assume the Kabutops user is smart enough not to try and SD on something that's going to kill it. The Linoone example isn't a very good one because of the fact that it is hard to set up in the first place (Yeh, go ahead and Belly Drum while I just poke you and you will die). Kabutops' defenses are good enough to find a turn in which he can SD up and sweep (I compare him to Lucario because I think it is a pretty legitimate comparison, while Lucario has better typing, Kabutops has better physical defense, so he doesn't always have to sneak in via resistances, Lucario has a stronger priority, but Kabutops' one can hit some faster Pokemon for Super Effective damage).

I agree that Kabutops has more chances to set up than Linoone (although Linoone can Drum vs. Chansey as well), but that one turn isn't always easy to get. Take Kabutops vs. Blaziken for example. You can SD, but if it chooses to stay in and use a Fighting move, you'll probably lose Kabutops. Water / rock is a terrible defensive combination in any case, leaving major weaknesses to Earthquake, Thunderbolt and any grass attack. Of course, Linoone has it even worse off.

I think arguing that Kabutops is BL because it has access to Swords Dance and a priority move is rather foolhardy because there are other Pokemon who can do this (Toxicroak, Feraligatr, Absol ...).

@Heysup -

Situation was this: Milotic was in an Toxic Poison'ed. FlareBlitz had Mesprit in (I think). I'd kept Milotic in for several turns now and so switch out to Uxie. On that same turn FlareBlitz switched out to Kabutops. I put up Reflect, he SD's. I U-turn, he SD's again. Is rain broken or was I mentally unprepared to face rain or did FlareBlitz play well or did I screw up? You tell me.

I gave you seven reasons why having Light Clay / Damp Rock makes a big difference. You gave one scenario which I responded to by saying that if you had Light Clay, you might not be taking that much damage in the first place. Do you want me to do the calcs on Swellow Facade vs. Uxie behind Reflect? I don't think there's a point. Stop avoiding arguments here. There are plenty of logs that show how powerful Damp Rock is for RainDance. Also more opportunities to set up is indeed better - for your opponent! Having to set up screens more often is so obviously bad I don't see why you think it doesn't matter.

Honestly if you don't think RainDance is overpowered, fine, but please don't say Damp Rock isn't necessary when RainDancing.

Finally I must say your idea that Quagsire and Toxicroak are bad Pokemon and so don't deserve to be called Kabutops checks look suspiciously like you not adapting to the metagame. You swept people on ladder with rain and yelled at them "where's your rain counter?". So FlareBlitz is sweeping you with Kabutops. What will you say if I yell at you, "where's your Kabutops counter?" If Kabutops is so powerful a sweeper, why haven't I seen it used as one outside of RD teams?

 

[YaM]

Kabutops Counters

Slowbro, Tangrowth, Quagsire, Poliwrath, Hitmontop, Leafeon

Note +2 Kabutops Stone Edge does 98.7%-116.3% damage on min/min Toxicroak but Toxicroak does 67.4% - 80.3% with +0 Vacuum Wave

edit: Banedon. Kabutops vs Blaziken... should use Aqua Jet due to the threat of Vacuum Wave.

 

[FlareBlitz]

What Pokemon can use priority to beat Ludicolo? It's not weak to any form of priority, and 4x resists rain boosted aqua jet (unlike Kabutops, who's weak to the most common types of priority and is neutral to aqua jet). Even Absol's Sucker Punch doesn't ko, even after rocks + LO damage. Scarfers also aren't getting past Ludicolo, since it outruns everything up to +base 95 scarfers. The only remotely common scarfer above that is Scarf Missy, which can't ohko Ludicolo with anything anyway. Otherwise, speed is completely irrelevant except in rain v rain matches.

Ludicolo also beats all but the most oddly physically defensive (more than 252/160 Bold) variants of Venusaur (most are specially defensive anyway) with Ice Punch or Zen Headbutt. In addition, depending on its set, it has a much easier time with Blastoise, Poliwrath, Toxicroak, Quagsire, Hitmontop, Azumarill (can fuck Kabutops with Aqua Jet), and Torterra. Note that the above are all considered "rain checks"; Ludicolo's ability to breeze past them is what makes it so deadly.
The only defensive Pokemon that gives Ludicolo more trouble over Kabutops is Registeel, since more defensive variants can live through Ludicolo's +2 Waterfall but not Kabutops'. I honestly can't think of any more, besides Pokemon that give both trouble (like Tangrowth).

I will grant that Kabutops is better outside of rain, but that has nothing to do with whether it's broken or not (since it's clearly not broken outside of rain).

 

[flashbolt]

It seems bizarre that even pokemon with no counters at all aren't automatically banned yet a pokemon with several counters (even if not all that common/viable) will be banned. That is the scepticism you will be facing.

So here is my list of pokes that can out some damage on Ludicolo (from UU):
Absol, does not OHKO (jolly, LO) but does alot of damage
Ambipom does about 50% with Jolly/LO Fake Out. Come in twice and Ludi is dead.
Hitmontop
Leafeon
Registeel
Slowbro has to run all out defense set to survive +2 SB
Tangrowth
Umbreon
Uxie
Weezing (chance of dying)

Alot of them can't do much back except status and alot of them are heavily EVed.

 

[shrang]

I'd kept Milotic in for several turns now and so switch out to Uxie. On that same turn FlareBlitz switched out to Kabutops. I put up Reflect, he SD's. I U-turn, he SD's again. Is rain broken or was I mentally unprepared to face rain or did FlareBlitz play well or did I screw up? You tell me.

That was probably an unlucky switch, but Uxie didn't have anything to cripple Kabutops with (Yawn, Thunder Wave)?? I don't know your Uxie's moveset, but common Uxies usually have either Yawn or Thunder Wave. Yes, I know Flare has Uxie to Heal Bell his Kabutops (I've battled him and know this) and Healing Wish from Mesprit, but the point is, you just paused an SD Kabutops sweep with one of those moves, and that should usually be enough time to pull your game back together and either i) Get on the offensive or ii) Set up screens like you do or iii) Set up some hazards and hopefully start phazing for damage.

Just saying this because I notice this, but Substitute is a great move to use against Rain teams. Stuff like SubPlot Mismagius really pisses off a Rain team if you happen to come into one of their rain inducers. When they switch in their sweeper, you pretty much have a free turn to do whatever you like (At worst, hit them with an attack and then switching to a counter). It is really infuriating when I'm using my own Rain team to see a Sub on the other side as well.

 

[Heysup]

I think arguing that Kabutops is BL because it has access to Swords Dance and a priority move is rather foolhardy because there are other Pokemon who can do this (Toxicroak, Feraligatr, Absol ...).

Someone who thinks Rain is broken completely ignores it as a "quality" of Kabutops. Ironic.

@Heysup -

Situation was this: Milotic was in an Toxic Poison'ed. FlareBlitz had Mesprit in (I think). I'd kept Milotic in for several turns now and so switch out to Uxie. On that same turn FlareBlitz switched out to Kabutops. I put up Reflect, he SD's. I U-turn, he SD's again. Is rain broken or was I mentally unprepared to face rain or did FlareBlitz play well or did I screw up? You tell me.

So your argument is "I got outplayed so rain is broken". I suggest another approach...

I gave you seven reasons why having Light Clay / Damp Rock makes a big difference. You gave one scenario which I responded to by saying that if you had Light Clay, you might not be taking that much damage in the first place. Do you want me to do the calcs on Swellow Facade vs. Uxie behind Reflect? I don't think there's a point. Stop avoiding arguments here. There are plenty of logs that show how powerful Damp Rock is for RainDance. Also more opportunities to set up is indeed better - for your opponent! Having to set up screens more often is so obviously bad I don't see why you think it doesn't matter.

For the nth time, your seven reasons are not reasons, they're 7 specific uncommon situations that really don't apply very often even if you seem to "think they would". Most of your "reasons" actually start with the word if but it's included in every one. What does that tell you?

Additionally I find it ironic that you're trying to tell me to stop avoiding arguments when you completely ignore the Swellow example and try to address it with a completely irrelevant calculation. Firstly lets go over that 10 turns of screens is better than 8 turns of screens. Second, my example, Swellow, will 2HKO Uxie without Leftovers. This means I can do one of many things that a Light Clay Uxie can't do. I can a) switch into Swellow, survive 2 Facades and set up Light Screen. And I can b) set up on Swellow twice as opposed to the Light Clay Uxie who simply cannot. (Hint: I think it seems that you're under the false impression that you can set up Reflect even while it's still active, but you can't)

Remember; all I have to do is make a case for Light Clay (which applies to Damp Rock as well) not being "that much better". If a team strategy is broken with the item, it is almost definitely broken without it as well.

Honestly if you don't think RainDance is overpowered, fine, but please don't say Damp Rock isn't necessary when RainDancing.

When in doubt, say please.

Why would I not say this when it is clearly true. I posted 15 completely legitimate and uncherry picked (you can tell with the times) logs showing that I won and lost equal times with the same rain team, one with Leftovers/Lum/Sash and one with Damp Rock.

Finally I must say your idea that Quagsire and Toxicroak are bad Pokemon and so don't deserve to be called Kabutops checks look suspiciously like you not adapting to the metagame. You swept people on ladder with rain and yelled at them "where's your rain counter?". So FlareBlitz is sweeping you with Kabutops. What will you say if I yell at you, "where's your Kabutops counter?" If Kabutops is so powerful a sweeper, why haven't I seen it used as one outside of RD teams?

This is where I get to bring up the most useful example available when discussing Pokemon: the Kyogre example. Kyogre is beaten by Pokemon such as Parasect and Quagsire, so does this mean that Kyogre isn't broken? By your logic, we may as well bring Kyogre down to standard.

This example is especially applicable here with Kabutops since a lot of the Pokemon are actually the same as the ones for Kyogre. Toxicroak and Quagsire stop both of them, but they are no where near "big enough threats" to cause a major impact on Kabutops (or Kyogre).

When I say that people aren't adapting, I am telling them not only which common threats help, but I am telling them strategies. You just listed a bunch of insignificant threats.

@ FlareBlitz:

Absol Sucker Punch vs Ludicolo: 82.8% - 97.7%. That's great odds, especially when considering Life Orb recoil.

There are also Pokemon like Skuntank, Technitop, and who quite well.

Ludicolo's Attack is just too low imo. It fails to OHKO random semi-bulky Pokemon like Offensive Venusaur and Donphan, while Kabutops walks all over them. It also avoids priority and CS, unlike Ludicolo who gets raped by priority, Speed, and its low Attack stat.

@ Shrang:

Yea I think I mentioned that in my post in the megathread a while back. Substitute is an excellent way to beat a Rain Dance team, especially with something slow like Rhyperior who can set up a Substitute on Uxie / Mesprit. Lets face it, Rhyperior is going to be dead weight against a Rain team anyway.

 

[Banedon]

@YaM - yes but if you Aqua Jet then no SD for Kabutops (and so his list of counters is so much longer).

@shrang - My Uxie had Reflect / Light Screen / U-turn / Stealth Rock, so no it didn't have anything to cripple Kabutops with. I was a bit unlucky but FlareBlitz did predict I would keep Milotic in for precisely that long, so props to him. If he'd missed, Kabutops would be dead (HP Grass) and Milotic still alive.

It's another example of Damp Rock helping RD out, because if it weren't for Damp Rock, FlareBlitz would've had to switch Kabutops in earlier or there'd be no more rain.

 

[shrang]

@YaM - yes but if you Aqua Jet then no SD for Kabutops (and so his list of counters is so much longer).

SD/Waterfall/Stone Edge/Aqua Jet, the coverage is good enough for the most part. Although you could probably get away with SD/Stone Edge/Aqua Jet/X-Scissor or Return, using Stone Edge as your main STAB, and X-Scissor or Return can be used for extra coverage, Aqua Jet only being there for priority.

Counters (+2 Jolly 252 Atk LO Kabutops vs):
Stone Edge vs Bold 252/252 Slowbro: 658 Atk vs 350 Def & 394 HP (100 Base Power): 262 - 309 (66.50% - 78.43%) - Solid 2HKO
Stone Edge vs Impish 252/228 Tangrowth - 658 Atk vs 377 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 244 - 288 (60.40% - 71.29%) - Solid 2HKO
Quagsire - Fine, good counter to Kabutops without Return
Poliwrath - Fine, good counter to Kabutops without Return
+1 Waterfall vs Adamant 252/4 Hitmontop (Rapid Spinner) - 493 Atk vs 227 Def & 304 HP (80 Base Power): 243 - 286 (79.93% - 94.08%) - 41.03% to OHKO with SR down (EDIT: SORRY THIS IS WRONG, I FORGOT HITMONTOP RESISTS SR, the calc is still correct, just the OHKO probability is wrong)
Stone Edge vs Impish 252/20 Leafeon (Wish Support) - 658 Atk vs 331 Def & 334 HP (100 Base Power): 277 - 327 (82.93% - 97.90%) - 66.67% chance to OHKO with SR up (More offensive version are obviously OHKO'd).

Therefore, some of these "counters" aren't really counters at all, only checks, as they can't switch into any attack Kabutops throws out anyway. Poliwrath and Quagsire are possible counters, but they are in danger of +2 Returns as well.