Makin' it Rain: UU Rain discussion

[Banedon]

So then use Floatzel, it learns all of those attacks and has higher Speed and Attack.

Why do you lose Ludicolo if not for its typing? Seriously it's stupid to have on your Rain team if it's typing isn't the main reason it's used; otherwise it's outclassed.

This isn't even "subjective or biased speculation", it's just simply not making sense.

Well obviously because:

When to RD players it's obvious that Ludicolo brings so many more things to the table like its unique offensive typing i.e. being able to use STAB attacks vs. bulky Water types, as well as having access to attacks like Zen Headbutt / Ice Punch and Focus Punch for use against Pokemon like Poliwrath, Venusaur and Chansey, as well as its unpredictability, but don't worry guys: it's pretty clear that Ludicolo is on RD teams

"all of those attacks" indeed. You must not only be sleeping, you must be suffering Bad Dreams ... Clefable, use Wake Up Slap on Heysup!

PS: And that's not counting other obvious advantages like being able to take a hit because of superior defensive stats (not typing).
PPS: Lol @ accusations of bias coming from someone who actually said "rain sucks please beat it" in one of this logs.

 

[Heysup]

So I'll ignore your obvious trolling and personal attacks for the second time, and simply point out that a) SD Ludicolo cannot use Zen Headbutt, because it uses Ice Punch, Waterfall, and Seed Bomb, and b) Ludicolo beats opposing water types because of its typing. That was my point, and thank you for proving that there is no other argument for using Ludicolo over another Swift Swimmer. Ludicolo does not sweep like Kabutops does simply because it lacks power, priority, and speed. There is no characteristic for having good defensive synergy with other rain sweepers.

You use Ludicolo for synergy and Kabutops because it is the best sweeper on rain teams.

P.S 60 / 105 > 80 / 70 defenses. "That doesn't make much of a difference amg" - check the calcs vs Absol Sucker Punch that I've posted.

 

[Golden Sun]

What more is there to be said Chansey + Tangrowth can beat nearly and RD team. NP toxicroak can help alot or any water absorb pokemon. Scarfers can help and Taunters are also good

 

[FlareBlitz]

Chansey + Tangrowth is wrecked by Kabutops and Qwilfish. Toxicroak is wrecked by Kabutops (assuming stone edge hits which, if you're me, it won't) and Ludicolo. And the rain sweepers in my teams either ignore Chansey completely or 2hko it, so it's not even an issue. Really, the only way to switch something into one of my sweepers is to let something else die...and even that's risky, because if I SD up on a weak attack, I'll probably sweep you. So far, my only losses have either been due to me not being "on" (and therefore playing like shit), due to random hax, or due to my opponent having more than 4 rain checks in their team (typically something like Milotic, Venusaur, [Water Absorber], and Raikou).

 

[shrang]

a)sd ludicolo does not use Zhb, because it uses ice punch waterfall and seed bomb.

I have seen Ludicolos run Zen Headbutt just to beat Poliwrath and Toxicroak, and sometimes Venusaur. However, that would leave him quite vulnerable to bulky pure Grass types, like Leafeon, Tangrowth and Meganium.

NP Toxicroak is a big threat Rain teams. While some of them would inevitably use Psychics like Uxie to check him, but if you run Dark Pulse on it, most Psychics would fall to it (252/4 Impish/Bold Uxie takes 77.03% - 91.22%) from it, so it's even slightly damaged, it dies. Psychic Gorebyss or Zen Headbutt Ludicolo is probably the best way to check it for a Rain team, but even that is shaky. 32/0 Gorebyss takes 62.55% - 74.13% from a +2 Vacuum Wave and 4/0 Ludicolo takes 42.72% - 50.66%, which can potentially half a sweep gone, not to mention he won't to come in on Sludge Bomb. It's a pity Cresselia really put a damper on NP Croak, but fortunately, she's going to be banned from the ladder once they update it (Which is when??).

Edit:

Toxicroak is wrecked by Kabutops (assuming stone edge hits which, if you're me, it won't) and Ludicolo

Toxicroak resists both of Kabutops' STABs. If Rain is up, who is going to Stone Edge?? Unless you know they have a Toxicroak, it probably isn't your first choice, which means the first Toxicroak switch-in is usually with impunity. He can then NP up while you switch in Ludicolo, and that is when they will realise you have Zen Headbutt. That just wasted 3/6 (Assuming U-Turn) rain turns.

So far, my only losses have either been due to me not being "on" (and therefore playing like shit), due to random hax, or due to my opponent having more than 4 rain checks in their team (typically something like Milotic, Venusaur, [Water Absorber], and Raikou)

No offensive, Flare, but I do think my win over you did not consist of any of those. You weren't playing badly (Otherwise Healing Wish won't have happened), there was little hax (Crit on Qwilfish on first turn, but that wasn't TOO important), and I wouldn't say my team had many Rain checks on it. [/brag]

Oh, and Flare, just off topic here, on your style of playing Rain. Laid back and not worrying about Rain turns is cool and different, and it works, but I really think if that is your style, you're better off with a Sunny Day team which is more balanced and much easier to play using your tempo. Just a suggestion.

 

[Banedon]

@Heysup - I'll also ignore your obvious trolling and personal attacks to point out the difference between your original post and the last one:

Thanks for proving my point? Why is it that no one runs a serious Rain team without Kabutops? Your Ludicolo argument is completely invalid, since the reason it is so key to Rain Dance teams is solely because of its unique defensive typing, something you can't really argue for Kabutops.

vs.

So I'll ignore your obvious trolling and personal attacks for the second time, and simply point out that a) SD Ludicolo cannot use Zen Headbutt, because it uses Ice Punch, Waterfall, and Seed Bomb, and b) Ludicolo beats opposing water types because of its typing. That was my point. Ludicolo does not sweep like kabutops does simply because it lacks power, priority, and speed. There is no characteristic for having good defensive synergy with other rain sweepers.

Bingo!

You use Ludicolo because it and Kabutops are the best rain sweepers, and one of the reasons why Ludicolo is one of the best rain sweepers is because it can use its secondary grass typing to beat opposing water types. Clearly your original statement that the only reason to use Ludicolo on RD teams is because of its defensive typing, is wrong. Even though there are more reasons to use Ludicolo, I don't need to give any more of them because the existence of even a single alternative reason > your sweeping statement.

Clefable's Wake Up Slap did achieve its purpose after all.

PS: Never seen a SD Ludicolo with Zen Headbutt? You should play FlareBlitz more, because last I played him he had SD / Zen Headbutt / Seed Bomb / Waterfall. As shrang pointed out, this beats Toxicroak, Poliwrath and Venusaur, while failing against Tangrowth, Leafeon and Meganium.
PPS: Because Floatzel has 60/105 defenses ...

EDIT: @shrang - I think FlareBlitz's point with Kabutops / Toxicroak is that you switch Toxicroak into Kabutops' Waterfall, and then the question is what happens next. According to my calcs, Kabutops without SD will deal about half damage to Toxicroak (assuming max attack Adamant Life Orb), while Kabutops after SD will usually kill Toxicroak. Against that Toxicroak's Vacuum Wave (max SpA Modest Life Orb) does between 72% - 85.8% to min/min Kabutops. Enough to kill if Kabutops switched into SR + took a few turns of Life Orb recoil.

 

[imapedarsag]

Chansey + Tangrowth is wrecked by Kabutops and Qwilfish. Toxicroak is wrecked by Kabutops (assuming stone edge hits which, if you're me, it won't) and Ludicolo. And the rain sweepers in my teams either ignore Chansey completely or 2hko it, so it's not even an issue. Really, the only way to switch something into one of my sweepers is to let something else die...and even that's risky, because if I SD up on a weak attack, I'll probably sweep you. So far, my only losses have either been due to me not being "on" (and therefore playing like shit), due to random hax, or due to my opponent having more than 4 rain checks in their team (typically something like Milotic, Venusaur, [Water Absorber], and Raikou).

Did you misread or just forget to address Tangrowth because there is no way Kabutops can beat a Tangrowth. one power whip, leaf storm, or any other grass attack will basically murder Kabutops. X-Scissor doesn't even 2hko standard Mojonbo set. I'm curious as to what happens when the opponent switches from Chansey to Tangrowth. Floatzel is the only Swift Swimming pursuit learning pokemon and Toxicroak is another rain dance viable option for using pursuit. After running some damage calculations, with a life orb, neither one of said pursuiters can 2hko a Calm Chansey without Stealth Rock support. Once the opponent switches to Tangrowth, when an Adamant Toxicroak is holding a choice band and uses ice punch, it 2hkos the mixed Tangrowth set(no defense or hp investment), while the same mixed Tangrowth set OHKOs Toxicroak with a simple Earthquake. Floatzel, having a lower attack base stat as Toxicroak, is in even worse shape. An Adamant Floatzel with a choice band and maximum Atk EVs 2hkos a Tangrowth and is Power Whipped to oblivion. But there is always the 30% chance that Power Whip will miss and Floatzel comes on top with another Ice Punch.

As you can see, luck, prediction, and preperation all take major roles in the victor. But a majority of the time, Chansey and Tangrowth will win. Just for fun, I even calculated a Qwilfish Explosion on the mixed Tangrowth and it killed it with ease, but be careful, because there is that small chance that the Defensive Tangrowth will survive the explosion. If anyone else can think of some counters, then by all means, throw them out there and I'll run another situation run like the one above.

 

[FlareBlitz]

@Shrang

NP Toxicroak is ohko'd by +2 Stone Edge after a layer of spikes. I don't need to predict to kill it.

Regarding your win, I don't actually remember that match (not saying it didn't happen, just that I don't remember how it went), so I can't really comment on it. I will say that if we played at night, I certainly did not bring my A-game.

Sunny day teams are just not as good as rain dance teams due to the inherently worse STAB, the lack of Pokemon that have both their speed and offense boosted, and the typically poor movepools of Sunny Day abusers.
I like playing Rain the way I play it. These days I don't even put much thought whenever I play my rain team. It's a pretty relaxing playstyle just because there are so few actual rain checks that you can usually just ignore large portions of your opponent's team, and focus on stalling out the ones who do matter. I think that's the mistake a lot of people make when playing against rain; they let their only rain checks get weakened in a misguided attempt to "stall out rain", when I can just set it back up again very easily.

Edit for above: +2 Stone Edge does 66.1% - 78% to the standard Tangrowth. X-scissor does a bit more. This essentially cripples Tangrowth for the rest of the match, and with a few hazards down sometimes kills it, meaning something like SD Ludicolo or Qwilfish will pretty easily take the rest of your team out. Once Tangrowth is gone, SD Qwilfish ohkos every other common physical wall in the tier except Slowbro, and SD Ludicolo ohkos every other common physical wall in the tier except Leafeon (and you probably shouldn't run Leafeon and Tangrowth on the same team >_>). An individual above compared Rain to HO on crack, and that's pretty much how it plays against stall. And if you were wondering, the "on crack" part comes from the Deoxys-A level offensive stats.

 

[shrang]

NP Toxicroak is ohko'd by +2 Stone Edge after a layer of spikes. I don't need to predict to kill it.

Again, you cannot assume you will have SD and Spikes up. Modest NP Toxicroak does 71.76% - 85.50% with a +0 Vacuum Wave, so if you switch into Stealth Rock, Kabutops will get 1 more kill, tops.

 

[YaM]

SD Ludicolo cannot use Zen Headbutt, because it uses Ice Punch, Waterfall, and Seed Bomb

It can sacrifice Ice Punch to better hit Toxicroak but it would lose power against Bulky (mono)Grass types.

Ludicolo beats opposing water types because of its typing. That was my point, and thank you for proving that there is no other argument for using Ludicolo over another Swift Swimmer. Ludicolo does not sweep like Kabutops does simply because it lacks power, priority, and speed.

Yes, because of it's typing. But this typing does not only work defensively (x4 Water Resist to come in on Bulky Waters... Kabutops is neutral to Water) it also works offensively by hitting the Bulky Waters with a STAB Grass attack: (Seed Bomb/Grass Knot).

Actually, I would also like to raise another point. Ludicolo is more "versatile" than other Swift Swimmers because you can't really know whether it's Special or Physical! (And even if it's Special, Chansey can go eat a Focus Punch)

This is why you use Ludicolo
Grass Knot vs 252HP Bold Milotic 76.3% - 90.1%
LO Gorebyss HP Grass vs 252HP Bold Milotic 41.7% - 49.4%

Ludicolo after 1 Swords Dance, 524 Attack and has Dual STAB compared to
Floatzel 508.5 Attack with one Bulk Up. (Since you compared to Floatzel earlier and no, Floatzel does not learn Seed Bomb) You can also compare secondary moves, Seed Bomb being 120 after STAB but Floatzel can only muster Return (102) at the best.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I have seen Ludicolos run Zen Headbutt just to beat Poliwrath and Toxicroak, and sometimes Venusaur.

Right, because Ludicolo really needs Zen Headbutt to beat Poliwrath when it has STAB Seed Bomb as its secondary attack. The small power difference between it and Ice Punch is rarely of consequence against Venusaur too, and probably not worth the chance of missing for. So really ZH is only for Toxicroak, which I admit is a key Pokemon for Rain Dance teams to target, but even then I'm not sure if it is worth losing coverage against Altaria and several bulky Grass types for.

Anyway, as a current neutral on this discussion, I think there is one issue that needs clarifying here as there seems to be a lot of irrelevant sidestepping from the main topic. With regards to Kabutops vs. Damp Rock, the main point to prove is not whether Kabutops is far more dangerous than any other Rain sweeper, but whether Kabutops (alongside all other teammates and situations) continues to fit the offensive characteristic of easily sweeping through teams without the support provided by Damp Rock.

Also, on the subject of logs, I would like to see some people be more open, willing and honest in this regard. Like, say, use 3 different Rain dance teams (one normal, one without Damp Rock, one without Kabutops) then post the first 10 or so logs for each. If several people do this, it would produce both significant and unbiased samples to analyze, and although it may not prove much by itself, it will certainly help put certain arguments into greater perspective. As much as I find Rain boring, I actually intend to make an effort to do something similar to this sometime this next round. It may end up being tedious / tl;dr or whatever, but this is a complicated issue that only deserves as much effort on our part.

 

[Banedon]

I did notice I listed the wrong Pokemon (should be Toxicroak, not Poliwrath) shortly after making my post, but didn't edit to correct it. My bad. I agree that Zen Headbutt targets Toxicroak but I'll point out that it maintains coverage against Venusaur, who's the most often used UU grass type. This last metagame I've seen a lot of Toxicroaks and a few Venusaurs but no (or very few) Altarias, too.

I think one problem with getting logs is that you can flatten bad players on ladder and it won't prove anything. Take a look at some of Heysup's logs posted on post #236. It's an Electrode vs. Absol lead and Absol starts by using ... Sucker Punch!? The logs also feature Agility Lanturn, Sudowoodo leads, lead Froslass with Hail, etc.

Nonetheless I'll still try getting some logs when I finally get to it.

@shrang - just curious, whose side are you on? I mean a few pages ago you were saying how Kabutops will get SD off and then after rain dies it's still a threat that has few safe switch ins, and now you say you cannot assume you have both Spikes + SD. Why?

PS: @YaM - you put it better than I did :)

 

[flashbolt]

Anyway, as a current neutral on this discussion, I think there is one issue that needs clarifying here as there seems to be a lot of irrelevant sidestepping from the main topic. With regards to Kabutops vs. Damp Rock, the main point to prove is not whether Kabutops is far more dangerous than any other Rain sweeper, but whether Kabutops (alongside all other teammates and situations) continues to fit the offensive characteristic of easily sweeping through teams without the support provided by Damp Rock.

Quoted for truth and importance

Also, on the subject of logs, I would like to see some people be more open, willing and honest in this regard. Like, say, use 3 different Rain dance teams (one normal, one without Damp Rock, one without Kabutops) then post the first 10 or so logs for each. If several people do this, it would produce both significant and unbiased samples to analyze, and although it may not prove much by itself, it will certainly help put certain arguments into greater perspective. As much as I find Rain boring, I actually intend to make an effort to do something similar to this sometime this next round. It may end up being tedious / tl;dr or whatever, but this is a complicated issue that only deserves as much effort on our part.

I was doing pretty much exactly that but the problem is that people often read into the battle what they want to see. It happened last time when there was a mini spree of logs, there were constant allegations "you didnt use kabutops well" "you were trying to lose" "hax" "you made a mistake". Im not bothered if these allegations were justified, i think they would continue even if they werent justified.
I'm rambling a bit but the point is; im not sure even logs would help much, it would just shift debate instead of resolving it. The logs would certainly have to be done by people who are neutral in the debate (yourself, Lemmiwinks, and possibly me too) and also good with rain (which cuts me out).

 

[Heysup]

@Heysup - I'll also ignore your obvious trolling and personal attacks to point out the difference between your original post and the last one:

I have not trolled or personally attacked you, I do not need to. It just shows how desperate you are for arguments when over half your post is about completely inapplicable things regarding me, not my arguments.

Bingo!

You use Ludicolo because it and Kabutops are the best rain sweepers, and one of the reasons why Ludicolo is one of the best rain sweepers is because it can use its secondary grass typing to beat opposing water types. Clearly your original statement that the only reason to use Ludicolo on RD teams is because of its defensive typing, is wrong. Even though there are more reasons to use Ludicolo, I don't need to give any more of them because the existence of even a single alternative reason > your sweeping statement.

You know Kabutops has this better secondary offensive STAB attack that has much better coverage and power. It gets all the necessary OHKOes on bulky water-types as well.

Second, I did NOT say that the "only reason to use Ludicolo in RD teams is because of its defensive typing". In fact you QUOTED exactly what I said:

the reason it is so key to Rain Dance teams is solely because of its unique defensive typing,

Sorry to burn down your strawman. The reason Ludicolo is "a necessity" on Rain dance teams is NOT because of its sweeping capabilities, but because it can switch into Water-types and beat them, and is neutral to Electric and Grass while also carrying an EQ resistance. Those aren't the "only" reasons to use Ludicolo, but it's typing is the only reason that Ludicolo is so "key/important". Anything you've said about SD Ludicolo offensively is done at least twice as good by Kabutops.

I'm not sure if the fact that you misread something that was right in front of your face (you quoted it) is sad or funny, but either way, it doesn't help your credibility which is already hurting from the excessive trolling. Speaking of trolling...

Clefable's Wake Up Slap did achieve its purpose after all.

If you're going to troll at least be subtle or funny. This is just shitty trolling that reduces your credibility even more (if that's even possible after the last trolling attempt). When in doubt, Troll. But not really.

PS: Never seen a SD Ludicolo with Zen Headbutt? You should play FlareBlitz more, because last I played him he had SD / Zen Headbutt / Seed Bomb / Waterfall. As shrang pointed out, this beats Toxicroak, Poliwrath and Venusaur, while failing against Tangrowth, Leafeon and Meganium.

I don't really care what people do, if they want to get walled to hell and back by Grass-types, Altaria, and the like, then that's fine. If you really want to try and argue with the worse Ludicolo set then that's fine as well. It won't make a difference. Kabutops still outclasses every other physical rain sweeper offensively due to STAB Stone Edge and it's 361 Attack.


@ Yam:

I don't think you realize what we're talking about.

 

[lati0s]

You know Kabutops has this better secondary offensive STAB attack that actually does MORE damage to Water-types than Seed Bomb does because of its Attack stat.

This is false
kabutops stone edge vs. standard milotic 45.3% - 53.7%
Ludicolo seed bomb vs. the same milotic 53.4% - 63.1%

 

[Heysup]

This is false
kabutops stone edge vs. standard milotic 45.3% - 53.7%
Ludicolo seed bomb vs. the same milotic 53.4% - 63.1%

Forgot STAB, my bad.

Anyway it's still much better type-coverage and gets the OHKOes needed on bulky waters that Seed Bomb does, which was my main point.

 

[Banedon]

I'm going to quote the key sentence, and bold for emphasis, and size for emphasis, until you can't avoid the fact that not only have you said it before, you must take responsibilities for its consequences.

the reason it is so key to Rain Dance teams is solely because of its unique defensive typing,

The implications from this statement are clear: the ONLY reason to use Ludicolo is because it fulfils a major DEFENSIVE purpose. It is also wrong. Run from the fact that you made an erroneous sweeping statement if you want. Hide behind veils of "but you're trolling me" if you think that obscures how you've said something stupid. Quote a bunch of irrelevant stuff and write a bunch of even more irrelevant stuff if you think it makes a difference. I'm not getting distracted.

I'm going to repeat. You said in your last post:

Those aren't the "only" reasons to use Ludicolo, but it's typing is the only reason that Ludicolo is so "key/important".

You're wrong. Reread YaM's post. He hit all the important points.

PS: I didn't even mention Swords Dance in my original post. In fact I said that Ludicolo is unpredictable (i.e. it can attack from either spectrum and even be mixed), which is one major advantage it has over Kabutops. Do you need me to find you the quote, or are you going to admit you haven't been reading my posts again?

 

[Stellar]

Can we please just stop using the term "trolling" in this thread? The thinly veiled ad hominem arguments are also starting to get frustrating and they don't contribute to discussion (or serve any purpose at all, really). I don't even understand the basis for the current argument. I'm pretty sure people are using Ludicolo for its defensive typing and its offensive presence.

 

[GMLW]

PS: I didn't even mention Swords Dance in my original post. In fact I said that Ludicolo is unpredictable (i.e. it can attack from either spectrum and even be mixed), which is one major advantage it has over Kabutops.

Actually, pretty much everyone here agrees that Swords Dance is superior to special, so people expect it. So now we could use a special set to surprise physical walls. Weird, because the main purpose of the Swords Dance set was to surprise Chansey.

I'm pretty sure people are using Ludicolo for its defensive typing and its offensive presence.

This. If I expect a Grass attack, I switch to Ludicolo because its typing makes it neutral to Grass, which is valuable on a rain team. However, once I get it in, if the opponent can't threaten it, I can set up a Swords Dance and sweep with the excellent coverage provided by its typing.

Although Heysup is partially right. If Ludicolo didn't have its typing defensively, it wouldn't be able to provide a neutrality to Grass for its rain team. If Ludicolo didn't have its typing offensively, it wouldn't have the excellent coverage when Seed Bomb is added to Waterfall and Ice Punch.

 

[Aldaron]

Hey REVOLUTIONARY IDEA guys...

Ludicolo is used for...a combination of its defensive typing and it's offensive abilities ;)

My point...this is silly. Why are you guys wasting pages and pages arguing such petty points?

The argument with rain has always been, "are certain Pokemon broken in rain?" If so, do we want to

a.) reduce rain's presence? (this encompasses debate on the viability of rain, the hypothesis that reducing its potential duration reduces its effectiveness, and "common condition" concerns)

or

b.) ban said pokemon, even if they aren't broken outside of rain?

Debate in this thread should center around first FIRMLY establishing whether or not certain Pokemon are broken in rain. After that, it should center on which direction we want to take.

Can we reduce rain's presence enough to make the OVERALL effect of these "in rain broken" pokemon minimal, or should we just ban them altogether?

The reason I emphasize "rain's presence" is because rain is not really a common condition in overall uu, but rain is a common condition on rain teams. Establishing the overall viability of rain in just as important as anything else.

 

[shrang]

@shrang - just curious, whose side are you on? I mean a few pages ago you were saying how Kabutops will get SD off and then after rain dies it's still a threat that has few safe switch ins, and now you say you cannot assume you have both Spikes + SD. Why?

My main point is that Rain is not broken, but if it is found to be broken, the main problem is Kabutops, not Damp Rock. I really think Kabutops can be played without Rain and still kick-ass given the right support, but Rain?? Nah. 8 turns of Rain is manageable in my eyes. Kabutops, if in Rain is not going to easily get an SD off because people know exactly what you're going to do and try to stop you SDing at all costs (They'll be preparing for you). However, if it's not raining, someone can bring in a Kabutops out of nowhere and SD up. In my eyes, Kabutops is easier to set up outside a Rain team than in it.

With regards to Kabutops vs. Damp Rock, the main point to prove is not whether Kabutops is far more dangerous than any other Rain sweeper, but whether Kabutops (alongside all other teammates and situations) continues to fit the offensive characteristic of easily sweeping through teams without the support provided by Damp Rock.

I have been testing this (Just using SD Kabutops in a normal HO team), and I have to say, he is not bad at all. At the moment, I only have one log of Kabutops sweeping (The crit on Mesprit did NOT matter):

Hide

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
_Lead Test_ sent out Mesprit (lvl 100 Mesprit).
itsrainingcum sent out Rhyperior (lvl 100 Rhyperior ?).
Mesprit used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Rhyperior used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
---
Mesprit used U-turn.
Rhyperior lost 14% of its health.
_Lead Test_ switched in Rotom (lvl 100 Rotom).
Pointed stones dug into Rotom.
Rotom lost 12% of its health.
Rhyperior used Rock Blast.
Rotom lost 21% of its health.
A critical hit!
Rotom lost 45% of its health.
Hit 2 time(s)!
Rotom's leftovers restored its health a little!
Rotom restored 6% of its health.
Rhyperior's leftovers restored its health a little!
Rhyperior restored 6% of its health.
---
Rotom used Will-o-wisp.
Rhyperior was burned!
Rhyperior used Rock Blast.
Rotom lost 10% of its health.
Rotom lost 11% of its health.
Hit 2 time(s)!
Rotom's leftovers restored its health a little!
Rotom restored 6% of its health.
Rhyperior's leftovers restored its health a little!
Rhyperior restored 6% of its health.
Rhyperior was hurt by its burn!
Rhyperior lost 12% of its health.
---
Rotom used Sunny Day.
The sun began to shine!
Rhyperior used Rock Blast.
Rotom lost 11% of its health.
Rotom lost 2% of its health.
_Lead Test_'s Rotom fainted.
Hit 4 time(s)!
The sun continues to shine.
Rhyperior's leftovers restored its health a little!
Rhyperior restored 6% of its health.
Rhyperior was hurt by its burn!
Rhyperior lost 12% of its health.
---
_Lead Test_ switched in Exeggutor (lvl 100 Exeggutor ?).
Pointed stones dug into Exeggutor.
Exeggutor lost 12% of its health.
itsrainingcum switched in Toxicroak (lvl 100 Toxicroak ?).
Pointed stones dug into Toxicroak.
Toxicroak lost 6% of its health.
Exeggutor used Swords Dance.
Exeggutor's attack was sharply raised.
The sun continues to shine.
Toxicroak was hurt by the sunlight!
Toxicroak lost 12% of its health.
---
Exeggutor used Zen Headbutt.
It's super effective!
Toxicroak lost 81% of its health.
itsrainingcum's Toxicroak fainted.
Exeggutor lost 10% of its health.
The sun continues to shine.
---
itsrainingcum switched in Torterra (lvl 100 Torterra ?).
Pointed stones dug into Torterra.
Torterra lost 6% of its health.
itsrainingcum switched in Rhyperior (lvl 100 Rhyperior ?).
Pointed stones dug into Rhyperior.
Rhyperior lost 6% of its health.
Exeggutor used Wood Hammer.
It's super effective!
Rhyperior lost 74% of its health.
itsrainingcum's Rhyperior fainted.
Exeggutor was hit by recoil!
Exeggutor lost 32% of its health.
Exeggutor lost 10% of its health.
The sun continues to shine.
---
itsrainingcum switched in Torterra (lvl 100 Torterra ?).
Pointed stones dug into Torterra.
Torterra lost 6% of its health.
Exeggutor used Wood Hammer.
Torterra lost 88% of its health.
itsrainingcum's Torterra fainted.
Exeggutor was hit by recoil!
Exeggutor lost 29% of its health.
Exeggutor lost 6% of its health.
_Lead Test_'s Exeggutor fainted.
The sun faded.
---
_Lead Test_ switched in Mesprit (lvl 100 Mesprit).
itsrainingcum switched in Swellow (lvl 100 Swellow ?).
Pointed stones dug into Swellow.
Swellow lost 25% of its health.
Pointed stones dug into Mesprit.
Mesprit lost 12% of its health.
_Lead Test_ switched in Rhyperior (lvl 100 Rhyperior ?).
Pointed stones dug into Rhyperior.
Rhyperior lost 6% of its health.
Swellow used U-turn.
Rhyperior lost 12% of its health.
itsrainingcum switched in Blaziken (lvl 100 Blaziken ?).
Pointed stones dug into Blaziken.
Blaziken lost 12% of its health.
Rhyperior's leftovers restored its health a little!
Rhyperior restored 6% of its health.
---
Blaziken used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Rhyperior lost 88% of its health.
_Lead Test_'s Rhyperior fainted.
Blaziken lost 10% of its health.
---
_Lead Test_ switched in Moltres (lvl 100 Moltres).
Moltres is exerting its pressure!
Pointed stones dug into Moltres.
Moltres lost 50% of its health.
Moltres used Morning Sun.
Moltres restored 50% of its health.
Blaziken used Fire Blast.
It's not very effective...
Moltres lost 45% of its health.
Blaziken lost 10% of its health.
---
itsrainingcum switched in Kabutops (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Pointed stones dug into Kabutops.
Kabutops lost 12% of its health.
Moltres used Air Slash.
It's not very effective...
Kabutops lost 46% of its health.
Moltres lost 10% of its health.
---
Kabutops used Aqua Jet.
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Moltres lost 45% of its health.
_Lead Test_'s Moltres fainted.
Kabutops lost 10% of its health.
---
_Lead Test_ switched in Mesprit (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Pointed stones dug into Mesprit.
Mesprit lost 12% of its health.
Kabutops used Swords Dance.
Kabutops's attack was sharply raised.
Mesprit used Sunny Day.
The sun began to shine!
The sun continues to shine.
---
Kabutops used Stone Edge.
A critical hit!
Mesprit lost 75% of its health.
_Lead Test_'s Mesprit fainted.
Kabutops lost 10% of its health.
The sun continues to shine.
---
_Lead Test_ switched in Houndoom (lvl 100 Houndoom ?).
Pointed stones dug into Houndoom.
Houndoom lost 25% of its health.
Kabutops used Aqua Jet.
It's super effective!
Houndoom lost 75% of its health.
_Lead Test_'s Houndoom fainted.
itsrainingcum wins!
itsrainingcum: gg
_Lead Test_: gg

 

[SJCrew]

I think rain is one of those cases where "adapting to the metagame" is actually relevant. Players whine about how their main team gets swept way too easily by rain, making it broken, but in reality, that just means it's time for a change. Tangrowth and a bulky Water can handle the majority of rain teams without much difficulty. Leading off with Hitmontop can prevent Electrode from setting up at all with LO Fake Out and Mach Punch. Any remotely fast Taunt user can put Uxie in its place while the rain sweepers become nothing more than sitting ducks.

If you really just sit there and brainstorm, there are multiple ways to beat rain teams without severely limiting your team options. Once you implement them, it's just like any other match, where you have to outplay your opponent to win.

 

[Heysup]

I'm going to quote the key sentence, and bold for emphasis, and size for emphasis, until you can't avoid the fact that not only have you said it before, you must take responsibilities for its consequences.



The implications from this statement are clear: the ONLY reason to use Ludicolo is because it fulfils a major DEFENSIVE purpose. It is also wrong. Run from the fact that you made an erroneous sweeping statement if you want. Hide behind veils of "but you're trolling me" if you think that obscures how you've said something stupid. Quote a bunch of irrelevant stuff and write a bunch of even more irrelevant stuff if you think it makes a difference. I'm not getting distracted.

You can misread it once, it won't change. You can misread it twice, it won't change. You can misread it three times and it will....oddly...not change.

Just because you bold one word does not mean the other part of the sentence does not exist. For example, I am saying this:

"The movie Avatar is so important to see solely because of its 3-d CGI technology which revolutionized movie experiences"

This is not me saying "the only reason to see it is because it's 3-D", this is me giving the "one reason it's so important".

Now I don't know why I'm responding to your straw grasping, but really this is quite unfortunate that even after reading it and quoting it 3+ times you are still trying to cling to it as your argument. How many more times do I need to spell this out for you?

The argument with rain has always been, "are certain Pokemon broken in rain?" If so, do we want to

a.) reduce rain's presence? (this encompasses debate on the viability of rain, the hypothesis that reducing its potential duration reduces its effectiveness, and "common condition" concerns)

or

b.) ban said pokemon, even if they aren't broken outside of rain?

Debate in this thread should center around first FIRMLY establishing whether or not certain Pokemon are broken in rain. After that, it should center on which direction we want to take.

Can we reduce rain's presence enough to make the OVERALL effect of these "in rain broken" pokemon minimal, or should we just ban them altogether?

The reason I emphasize "rain's presence" is because rain is not really a common condition in overall uu, but rain is a common condition on rain teams. Establishing the overall viability of rain in just as important as anything else.

The initial reason I brought Kabutops up is BECAUSE it is the only thing actually broken about rain in the first place. Every other sweeper is quite easily manageable by a decent Offense, Balance, or Stall teams on all counts (even if stall handles Kabutops better than the others). I carry Hitmontop on my balance team and I still get fucked by Kabutops because of it' priority and 722 Attack (which it will get on a balanced team most of the time.

Regardless of whether or not Damp Rock would nerf Kabutops (a whole other topic altogether), I don't how we can justify banning Damp Rock when it isn't the "culprit" - Kabutops is.

So that's why I'm of the opinion that banning Kabutops would make sense. Aren't we just supposed to ban what's broken?

 

[FlareBlitz]

So I've been using Kabutops outside of rain on one of my teams. It's actually surprisingly good. But not anywhere near broken. So if we have a Pokemon broken under a support condition, and we establish that the Pokemon is not broken without the support condition, what do we blame when the Pokemon is broken in the support condition? The support condition, not the Pokemon itself...

 

[Heysup]

So I've been using Kabutops outside of rain on one of my teams. It's actually surprisingly good. But not anywhere near broken. So if we have a Pokemon broken under a support condition, and we establish that the Pokemon is not broken without the support condition, what do we blame when the Pokemon is broken in the support condition? The support condition, not the Pokemon itself...

This is a good question, and I'm going to bring up the Hail example where everyone nominated Froslass even though Snover caused the hail simply because "Snover Hail" isn't a broken strategy in itself.

With Kabutops (disregarding the people who for some reason think Kabutops is "not the best sweeper"), we have a similar situation in my opinion. I do not feel rain is broken at all, even without "preparing" for it (eg. my team handles your whole team perfectly fine, UNTIL Kabutops comes out, as I'm sure you'll admit, and if you won't logs will :P). However when considering (IMO) that only Kabutops is broken out of all of the Rain sweepers it seems logical to only ban the broken Pokemon.