which is different from Deoxys-A how?
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Gen 6 Mega Rayquaza
- Thread starter Gloating
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which is different from Deoxys-A how?
Because you can't KO Rayquaza by breathing on it.
Ok we got that "uber" is esentially a ban list for "overused" but it has its own, rightfully, unbalanced metagame, whilst I disagreed on M_gengar's ban for this reason I think that M_Rayquaza can't just be overlooked since he's going to just steamroll that metagame.
(sorry I couldn't read Fireburn's post since I was writing this one).
lol @ people still bitching about it having "no checks"
Mray DOES have a few checks, including Xerneas, other MRay, Groudon, and Ditto. You guys really need to settle down, as we've established that there needs to be a review of ban philosophy and tiering policy, including the very real possibility of designating ubers as a tier as opposed to a simple banlist. Until then, actually play the meta, and give up on the lazy bullshit quickban mentality.
Chill the fuck out guys, no need to get heated over this.
Mray DOES have a few checks, including Xerneas, other MRay, Groudon, and Ditto. You guys really need to settle down, as we've established that there needs to be a review of ban philosophy and tiering policy, including the very real possibility of designating ubers as a tier as opposed to a simple banlist. Until then, actually play the meta, and give up on the lazy bullshit quickban mentality.
Chill the fuck out guys, no need to get heated over this.
You would need a pretty unorthodox Xerneas build to check Mega-Ray. Standard GeoXerneas can't beat Mega-Ray 1v1 since it's slower and will be OHKOed by Dragon Ascent before it can do anything. Scarfed Xerneas can revenge kill SD variants but has a 75% chance to be OHKOed by +2 Espeed after SR if you don't run any bulk.
Those pokemon all check different aspects of MRay (except for xerneas, that gets OHKOed by +1 dragon ascent even with max defense investment), but none can check all of them. If fact, MRay can only ever counter SD sets, because DD sets destroy them, using groudon rids you of the chance to run pdon, which is a HUGE opportunity cost in ORAS, and ditto is hugely dependent on prediction. Klefki doesn't even work because if someone is using MRay, it's very likely that they are also using it's best friend pdon, which hard counters klefki.
I don't see how Mega-Ray is checking opposing SD sets either because at +2, Espeed is a guaranteed KO after SR.
Why? Dragon Ascent OHKOs both.
Scarfxern can check sd iirc. PDon loss isn't that big of an opportunity cost as checking Mega Ray is WAY more important.
There are many Pokemon in ubers that cannot have all its sets be checked by one Pokemon. Arceus, Xerneas, M gar, Mewtwo, ect all fit that bill. Pairs have never been relevant in discussions of either brokenness or uncompetitiveness because of the momentum the that loses. As such, please stop acting like it's an argument
Game Freak has outdone themselves. Now more than half of the viable Pokemon in Ubers just became irrelevant.
I wonder whats next? Shadow Tag Mega Giratina with 120+ on each stat (besides HP), a very powerful STAB move and with the ability to hold an item?
However, I am glad that Avalugg became relevant...even if it appears in every single team from now on...
I wonder whats next? Shadow Tag Mega Giratina with 120+ on each stat (besides HP), a very powerful STAB move and with the ability to hold an item?
However, I am glad that Avalugg became relevant...even if it appears in every single team from now on...
Overheat.
+2 Dragon Ascent also OHKOs 248 HP/252+ Def Avalugg after SR.
Finally, I think the Double Dance set might be the hardest to stop.
Dragon Ascent+Earthquake is all you need for coverage.
If the opponent have walls (Lugia, Giratina, PDon) to stop you, use Swords Dance.
Else, use Dragon Dance.
The only way to stop this is priority and Ditto, and they can't directly switch in.
Dropping Swords Dance or Dragon Dance mean you have more checks, either defensive or offensive ones.
Dragon Ascent+Earthquake is all you need for coverage.
If the opponent have walls (Lugia, Giratina, PDon) to stop you, use Swords Dance.
Else, use Dragon Dance.
The only way to stop this is priority and Ditto, and they can't directly switch in.
Dropping Swords Dance or Dragon Dance mean you have more checks, either defensive or offensive ones.
Can I have some of what you're smoking?
Last night when I was thinking about M Ray checks I had a brainwave, I am pretty sure this is a solid check to all of M Ray's common sets. Ladies and Gentlemen I give you Air Balloon Diancie!
Diancie
item: air balloon
Quiet
252 Hp, 252 Sattack, 4 def
-rest
-sleep talk
-moonblast
-diamond storm
As the calculator does not have M Ray yet I am using Deo-A to base my calculations. Diancie is immune to dragon moves and resists all of its other attacks except for earthquake which is where the balloon comes in. M Ray has to pop the balloon first forcing it to use either extreme-speed, V-create or Dragon Ascent on it, this lets Diancie release a moonblast in response. Here are the calcs, remember that V-create and Dragon Ascent have equal damage output against Diancie:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Deoxys-A V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 187-221 (61.5 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Deoxys-A Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 83-99 (27.3 - 32.5%) -- 79% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-A V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 227-268 (74.6 - 88.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-A Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Diancie: 200-237 (65.7 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Deoxys-A V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 144-170 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So Daincie can tank any hit unless you are very unlucky with the +2 jolly V-create/Dragon Ascent and have rocks against you, or you are facing specs surf M Ray (which is just not likely to happen lol and even if it does its easy to revenge kill afterwards). Now lets see what Diancie can do back. As Once again as M Ray is not on the calculator I have given normal Ray enough Sdef EV's to simulate a M Ray with no bulk investment :
252+ SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 80 SpD Rayquaza: 284-336 (80.9 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. -1 0 HP / 80 SpD Rayquaza: 426-504 (121.3 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So there you have it, moonblast will remove at least 80% of its health and when you take into account that M Ray has to hit Diancie twice using Life Orb it will be dead regardless. You can remove a little of that Sattack and put it into def is you want to make sure +2 Dragon Ascent does not OHKO you.
Not only does rest-talk Air Balloon Diancie deal with M Ray, but it is actually capable of Countering Yveltal, checking non iron head Ho-Oh and it has the bulk and movepool to give most dragons in Uber a big headache. After all people were saying that Daincie was Uber viable before we knew anything about ORAS. Am I missing anything here or is this the SOLID check we have all been looking for?
Diancie
item: air balloon
Quiet
252 Hp, 252 Sattack, 4 def
-rest
-sleep talk
-moonblast
-diamond storm
As the calculator does not have M Ray yet I am using Deo-A to base my calculations. Diancie is immune to dragon moves and resists all of its other attacks except for earthquake which is where the balloon comes in. M Ray has to pop the balloon first forcing it to use either extreme-speed, V-create or Dragon Ascent on it, this lets Diancie release a moonblast in response. Here are the calcs, remember that V-create and Dragon Ascent have equal damage output against Diancie:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Deoxys-A V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 187-221 (61.5 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Deoxys-A Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 83-99 (27.3 - 32.5%) -- 79% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-A V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 227-268 (74.6 - 88.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-A Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Diancie: 200-237 (65.7 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Deoxys-A V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 144-170 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So Daincie can tank any hit unless you are very unlucky with the +2 jolly V-create/Dragon Ascent and have rocks against you, or you are facing specs surf M Ray (which is just not likely to happen lol and even if it does its easy to revenge kill afterwards). Now lets see what Diancie can do back. As Once again as M Ray is not on the calculator I have given normal Ray enough Sdef EV's to simulate a M Ray with no bulk investment :
252+ SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 80 SpD Rayquaza: 284-336 (80.9 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. -1 0 HP / 80 SpD Rayquaza: 426-504 (121.3 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So there you have it, moonblast will remove at least 80% of its health and when you take into account that M Ray has to hit Diancie twice using Life Orb it will be dead regardless. You can remove a little of that Sattack and put it into def is you want to make sure +2 Dragon Ascent does not OHKO you.
Not only does rest-talk Air Balloon Diancie deal with M Ray, but it is actually capable of Countering Yveltal, checking non iron head Ho-Oh and it has the bulk and movepool to give most dragons in Uber a big headache. After all people were saying that Daincie was Uber viable before we knew anything about ORAS. Am I missing anything here or is this the SOLID check we have all been looking for?
when u r running airballoon , u need to make sure u won't get hit before facing M-ray
if there's a SD megaray, then it can OHKO diancie at +2.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 251-295 (104.1 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Stop trolling please :/
You did not read my post properly, cause if you did you would have seen that I put 252 EV's into HP.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Deoxys-A V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 251-295 (82.5 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I did not put this calculation in because Adamant SD is not a great set for M Ray. Its gives you crazy power but its much easier to out-speed and KO from scarf users and EKiller. Jolly SD M Ray is better.
Yeah I would keep balloon Diancie safe until I need to use it. As long as you do that it can do its job even with stealth rock damage. Its the most solid check I can think of. Once it has done its job it can try to rest of the damage and be used as a general dragon/Ho-Oh/Yveltal killer, so it still has many uses in Ubers afterwards.
With SR, +2 Dragon Ascent has a 62.5% chance to OHKO that Diancie build. There's still a good chance that Diancie can live and KO Mega-Ray, but I don't think it's the most solid answer.
And most people agree that Adamant is actually the better nature for SD. +2 Espeed OHKOs practically everything faster/Scarfed and able to revenge kill that Jolly wouldn't. Also, Jolly makes no difference since those Scarfers would outspeed you with or without the added speed. Ekiller has priority so I don't see why you need the extra speed for it?
Ekiller is either max speed or almost no speed investment, so it's not worth going Jolly just to potentially land your Espeed before his (Adamant would outspeed bulky variants with its own Espeed too). Jolly Ekiller outspeeds Jolly M-Ray anyways, and you're not OHKOing Ekiller with Espeed. Meaning, outspeeding Ekiller should have no priority on your Nature.
Unless that was a typo and you meant Jolly DD Mega-Ray is better than Adamant SD Mega-Ray, in which case ignore the above.
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0 SpA Lugia Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega-Rayquaza: 120-142 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- 41.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It's a guaranteed 2HKO if you factor Life Orb recoil and Dragon Ascent stat drop.
EmblemLord it's clear from the calcs that there is some degree of redundancy in the number of SpA EVs - let's not forget that if Ray has to use VCreate, it's dropping its defenses; even if it doesn't use VCreate and uses something like ESpeed first to break the balloon (if it's somehow surviving the Moonblast in return), it's taking LO recoil. So shifting some SpA EVs to Def would solve the "OHKOed after SR" issue.
However ...
I tried and tried to make Air Balloon or at worst Shuca Berry [something] work. The problem is that you fold to all-out attacker sets. If Ray is using 4 attacks, then unless you manage to switch into Earthquake, you are dying next turn to that move. Not good.
For the record here's the best partial check I could come up with:
Rhyperior @ Shuca Berry
252 HP 252 Def Impish
Earthquake
Ice Punch / Stone Edge
Something
Something
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 357-421 (82.2 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuca Berry Solid Rock Rhyperior: 178-211 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rhyperior: 213-252 (49 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rhyperior: 95-112 (21.8 - 25.8%) -- 2.4% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 216-256 (61.5 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 146-172 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
VCreate is functionally equivalent to Dragon Ascent and Ice Punch has same BP vs Ray as Stone Edge. So: bring Rhyperior in as Ray SDs, eat the VCreate / Dragon Ascent / Earthquake, and then you get to hit it back ... but so what? If it attacks with VCreate or Dragon Ascent Rhyperior can OHKO back after SR + LO recoil, but if it uses EQ twice (or Espeed followed by EQ against Balloon Rhyperior) Rhyperior can't OHKO back against the 0/0 Ray. In the same way Regirock can survive a hit from +2 LO Ray with Shuca Berry, but can't OHKO back. At least Regirock learns Thunder Wave. Not much of an achievement, and maybe something like "I'll Thunder Wave you with my Shuca Regirock, switch to Yveltal to take your EQ (I hope to God you don't suddenly decide to use VCreate, or my Yveltal's dead) and then outspeed, live the ESpeed and KO with Foul Play" will work, but to take so much damage answering this one sweeper is not very reassuring.
EDIT: That said, Ray can't run everything, and there should be counters (not just checks) to some of its individual sets, e.g. physically defensive Skarmory walls SD Ray with ESpeed DA EQ, and if SD Ray drops EQ for VCreate, it would be walled by e.g. Rock Arceus.
However ...
I tried and tried to make Air Balloon or at worst Shuca Berry [something] work. The problem is that you fold to all-out attacker sets. If Ray is using 4 attacks, then unless you manage to switch into Earthquake, you are dying next turn to that move. Not good.
For the record here's the best partial check I could come up with:
Rhyperior @ Shuca Berry
252 HP 252 Def Impish
Earthquake
Ice Punch / Stone Edge
Something
Something
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 357-421 (82.2 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuca Berry Solid Rock Rhyperior: 178-211 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rhyperior: 213-252 (49 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rhyperior: 95-112 (21.8 - 25.8%) -- 2.4% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 216-256 (61.5 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 146-172 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
VCreate is functionally equivalent to Dragon Ascent and Ice Punch has same BP vs Ray as Stone Edge. So: bring Rhyperior in as Ray SDs, eat the VCreate / Dragon Ascent / Earthquake, and then you get to hit it back ... but so what? If it attacks with VCreate or Dragon Ascent Rhyperior can OHKO back after SR + LO recoil, but if it uses EQ twice (or Espeed followed by EQ against Balloon Rhyperior) Rhyperior can't OHKO back against the 0/0 Ray. In the same way Regirock can survive a hit from +2 LO Ray with Shuca Berry, but can't OHKO back. At least Regirock learns Thunder Wave. Not much of an achievement, and maybe something like "I'll Thunder Wave you with my Shuca Regirock, switch to Yveltal to take your EQ (I hope to God you don't suddenly decide to use VCreate, or my Yveltal's dead) and then outspeed, live the ESpeed and KO with Foul Play" will work, but to take so much damage answering this one sweeper is not very reassuring.
EDIT: That said, Ray can't run everything, and there should be counters (not just checks) to some of its individual sets, e.g. physically defensive Skarmory walls SD Ray with ESpeed DA EQ, and if SD Ray drops EQ for VCreate, it would be walled by e.g. Rock Arceus.
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Thats nice.
I think my Lugia is switching Aeroblast for Ice Beam.
Also can someone show me where i can have a Damage Calc for ORAS?
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