Thread approved by TDK & Earthworm
Hello everyone :)
I know this is an uncomfortable topic for a lot of players because of the slow and fat playstyles the pokemon generally promotes, but with how the metagame shaped up after the Mega Sableye ban back before SM got released, as well as some more recent meta shifts, there are a fair few amount of arguments to be made to at least start a discussion about whether or not it'd be worth to test the mon again in another suspect voting. I was also informed that it has been brought up in the ORAS OU council chat a few times but nothing really came to fruition - yet.
I won't go into too much detail about why it was suspected and ultimately banned, but for those who need a little refresher and/or didn't play back then, here is the original thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ound-7-diamonds-read-post-226-banned.3585600/
On to a few of the more prominent concerns with Mega Sableye, and the reasoning why they do not currently hold true (anymore). The two big categories here are hazards and stall-esque archetypes:
1) The Stealth Rock issue.
Back in the days, Clef wasn't AS prominent as it is nowadays, so a lot of people felt very limited in their teambuilding process by being "forced" to include MG Clef or the less popular Mold Breaker Drill to consistently get up Rocks (an integral part for literally every competitive team of pokemon) against teams that included Sableye as their mega. Of course we now know just how good of a pokemon MG Clef really is because of the multitude of roles it can fulfill in top teams, so many players decided (and still do so) to make it their SR user anyway, even without being "forced" into it by the thread of Sableye. In that regard, a reintroduction of sableye would not MAJORLY shake up the usage of SR setters in top tier ORAS OU. The SR setters that are most held back by Sableye being in the tier are Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Azelf, and to a lesser extend, Lando-T, all which can fulfill either a different role for teams, have ways to circumvent or break through Sableye, or can be used to set Spikes instead, leading me to the second point.
2) The Spikes issue.
As the second most common entry hazard, Spikes are almost as important as Stealth Rocks, and have in turn even spawned whole archetypes revolving around them. A common point brought up by people who opposed the Sableye ban back in ORAS, was the "fear" that Spikes, or hazard-stacking teams in general, would run rampant if Sableye got banned, as the only other viable Magic Bounce user, Mega Diancie, didn't have the longevity of Sableye that would allow it to supress the hazards throughout the duration of a whole game. This did of course turn out to be wrong, as even though Spike teams are very strong in the current meta, they aren't oppressive by any means. So the question would be, just as above, how would a reintroduction of Sableye affect the situation for those strategies? They would certainly take a drop in viability, especially in the first few weeks or months should Sableye come back, but one of the best qualities of Spikes teams is how variable they are. Many of the pokemon included in those teams as spike abusers ANYWAY can reliably threaten and force out/take advantage of Sableye. Some examples would be Mega Lopunny, which can OHKO even physically defensive MSab with HJK (and has a lower risk of running into Protect Sableye sets due to there being no Tapu Lele in Gen6), Gliscor or Volcarona which are both not bothered too much by Willowisp or Knock Off and can set up on MSab or Lum Berry sweepers. This means that when intelligently played, spikes stacking teams will still be able to combat mega sableye teams without, or with only minor adjustments to their team structure. This can also be seen quite nicely when looking at the last OLT that included Sableye, when it was in its "primetime" due to the additional presence of pokemon like Dugtrio (more on that later) here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/olt-discussion-thread.3579213/
This thread shows nicely that despite not only sableye being in the tier, but it also being directly supported by dugtrio, there were still several successful spikes stacking teams, such as the ones by Omfuga, Hiye, Ox, Patlop and Dann3, all with different megas or other pokemons to abuse the respective hazards, for example Lopunny, Diancie, Venusaur.
3) The Webs issue.
On to the last relevant hazard (not counting Toxic Spikes, which share a lot of the argument with their non-poisonous siblings), Sticky Webs. This is a particularly interesting point considering how much Sticky Webs, and particularly SoulWind 's team (https://pokepast.es/33cb655d7b8a1137) have split the playerbase lately. Whether you agree with the team just being an unprepared for Cheese that wins because people haven't found a decisive answer yet, or agree that the strategy itself is too strong by allowing the user to bring pokemon that normally wouldn't be viable (or much less) without the Web support is one thing. What CANNOT be denied though, is the success the strategy had on both the ladder, and in recent tournaments. So much so that there have been actual requests to suspect test Sticky Webs or Shuckle, which is something I don't think I would've ever seen myself reading. Now, as ABR described quite nicely in the description of one of his SM OU OLT teams (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/olt-iv-discussion-thread.3611603/#post-7465419), Sableye is of course extremely good against these kind of cheesey strategies, acting as sort of a catch-all-check. Therefore, reintroducing Sableye to the tier would be a quick and very comfortable way to put a huge damper on it. Make no mistake, even though Webs has ways around MSab teams by using Smeargle with Skill Swap as their setter, it would make the strategy A LOT worse. Making an archetype drastically worse with a suspect test does of course always leave a sour taste, but not only may this be an acceptable side effect given the current strength of the strategy, but it has also been mentioned multiple times in the past (ironically especially in the sableye- and later dugtrio-suspect, regarding stall), that keeping an archetype "alive" is not something that has to be forced no matter the cost. Insert "if he dies, he dies"-meme here.
4) The Stall issue.
Now if I didn't save the best for last. A lot of players, particularly (but far from only) newer/lesser experienced ones, have a raging hateboner for everything that is even remotely resembling stall or defensive strategies. Mega Sableye just so happens to make these a lot better in a tier it exists in. While I personally don't see this as something inherently bad (as long as the strategies aren't oppressive), a lot of people would disagree with that just by the nature of games including fat balance, stall and semi-stall being longer on average. There are still two major points that imo drastically reduce the effect this would have on defensively oriented teams, and therefore reduce the potential "danger" of reintroducing Sableye. First of all, and this is something a lot of players like to forget when it comes to Stall, it should be noted that no team can ever be prepared for everything. Even if you disregard some of the anti-stall-measures that Sableye is good at shutting down (hazards, status, taunt), ORAS OU still has plenty of ways to combat and break Balance and Stall. Some of those ways have no reliable answer without the Stall player going out of their way and ignoring other threats. In the past, this "issue" was solved by including Trappers such as Gothitelle (Shadow Tag) and Dugtrio (Arena Trap). Lo and behold, neither of these are present in the tier anymore. I don't want to critizise earlier tiering decisions, as they were made by players much better than myself, but in retrospective, suspect testing Dugtrio/Arena Trap before Mega Sableye would've been a better solution, similar to how it was done in SM OU later on (there are of course other factors that came into play in Gen7, like Z-moves, the Tapus, etc., but the general concept still holds true). And while there are still strong trapping options for Stall such as Magnezone or Weavile, they are not only a lot weaker overall, but also trap a much more limited amount of threats to a Stall player. Second, the way some pokemon (such as Heatran, Lando or Reuniclus for example) are being used has changed or expanded a lot over the years, and pokemon that were not an issue for Stall earlier in the gen, can effectively threaten, or at the very least cause mindgames, against Sableye teams now. The very least this does, especially combined with the lack of a proper trapper, is force the Sableye user to make decisions in the teambuilder that will drastically affect their matchup against some threats. Knock Off vs Foul Play, physdef vs spdef and Fake Out vs Protect are just 3 things off the top of my head. Summed up, while it will certainly improve defensively oriented teams, due to other bans as well as the evolution of both the metagame and players, a reintroduction of Sableye would have much less of an impact as many people fear it could.
Alright, so that was it for now, I apologize for the wall of text this has become, but I think the points I brought up were important for this discussion. I'd like to hear the opinion of others, but please, as always, keep the discussion civil, as there are enough actual arguments to be made for either side that we don't have to resort to flaming each other ;) And maybe, if the discussion catches up properly, the council will decide whether or not a resuspect of Sableye is justified or not. Thanks for reading!
Hello everyone :)
I know this is an uncomfortable topic for a lot of players because of the slow and fat playstyles the pokemon generally promotes, but with how the metagame shaped up after the Mega Sableye ban back before SM got released, as well as some more recent meta shifts, there are a fair few amount of arguments to be made to at least start a discussion about whether or not it'd be worth to test the mon again in another suspect voting. I was also informed that it has been brought up in the ORAS OU council chat a few times but nothing really came to fruition - yet.
I won't go into too much detail about why it was suspected and ultimately banned, but for those who need a little refresher and/or didn't play back then, here is the original thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ound-7-diamonds-read-post-226-banned.3585600/
On to a few of the more prominent concerns with Mega Sableye, and the reasoning why they do not currently hold true (anymore). The two big categories here are hazards and stall-esque archetypes:
1) The Stealth Rock issue.
Back in the days, Clef wasn't AS prominent as it is nowadays, so a lot of people felt very limited in their teambuilding process by being "forced" to include MG Clef or the less popular Mold Breaker Drill to consistently get up Rocks (an integral part for literally every competitive team of pokemon) against teams that included Sableye as their mega. Of course we now know just how good of a pokemon MG Clef really is because of the multitude of roles it can fulfill in top teams, so many players decided (and still do so) to make it their SR user anyway, even without being "forced" into it by the thread of Sableye. In that regard, a reintroduction of sableye would not MAJORLY shake up the usage of SR setters in top tier ORAS OU. The SR setters that are most held back by Sableye being in the tier are Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Azelf, and to a lesser extend, Lando-T, all which can fulfill either a different role for teams, have ways to circumvent or break through Sableye, or can be used to set Spikes instead, leading me to the second point.
2) The Spikes issue.
As the second most common entry hazard, Spikes are almost as important as Stealth Rocks, and have in turn even spawned whole archetypes revolving around them. A common point brought up by people who opposed the Sableye ban back in ORAS, was the "fear" that Spikes, or hazard-stacking teams in general, would run rampant if Sableye got banned, as the only other viable Magic Bounce user, Mega Diancie, didn't have the longevity of Sableye that would allow it to supress the hazards throughout the duration of a whole game. This did of course turn out to be wrong, as even though Spike teams are very strong in the current meta, they aren't oppressive by any means. So the question would be, just as above, how would a reintroduction of Sableye affect the situation for those strategies? They would certainly take a drop in viability, especially in the first few weeks or months should Sableye come back, but one of the best qualities of Spikes teams is how variable they are. Many of the pokemon included in those teams as spike abusers ANYWAY can reliably threaten and force out/take advantage of Sableye. Some examples would be Mega Lopunny, which can OHKO even physically defensive MSab with HJK (and has a lower risk of running into Protect Sableye sets due to there being no Tapu Lele in Gen6), Gliscor or Volcarona which are both not bothered too much by Willowisp or Knock Off and can set up on MSab or Lum Berry sweepers. This means that when intelligently played, spikes stacking teams will still be able to combat mega sableye teams without, or with only minor adjustments to their team structure. This can also be seen quite nicely when looking at the last OLT that included Sableye, when it was in its "primetime" due to the additional presence of pokemon like Dugtrio (more on that later) here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/olt-discussion-thread.3579213/
This thread shows nicely that despite not only sableye being in the tier, but it also being directly supported by dugtrio, there were still several successful spikes stacking teams, such as the ones by Omfuga, Hiye, Ox, Patlop and Dann3, all with different megas or other pokemons to abuse the respective hazards, for example Lopunny, Diancie, Venusaur.
3) The Webs issue.
On to the last relevant hazard (not counting Toxic Spikes, which share a lot of the argument with their non-poisonous siblings), Sticky Webs. This is a particularly interesting point considering how much Sticky Webs, and particularly SoulWind 's team (https://pokepast.es/33cb655d7b8a1137) have split the playerbase lately. Whether you agree with the team just being an unprepared for Cheese that wins because people haven't found a decisive answer yet, or agree that the strategy itself is too strong by allowing the user to bring pokemon that normally wouldn't be viable (or much less) without the Web support is one thing. What CANNOT be denied though, is the success the strategy had on both the ladder, and in recent tournaments. So much so that there have been actual requests to suspect test Sticky Webs or Shuckle, which is something I don't think I would've ever seen myself reading. Now, as ABR described quite nicely in the description of one of his SM OU OLT teams (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/olt-iv-discussion-thread.3611603/#post-7465419), Sableye is of course extremely good against these kind of cheesey strategies, acting as sort of a catch-all-check. Therefore, reintroducing Sableye to the tier would be a quick and very comfortable way to put a huge damper on it. Make no mistake, even though Webs has ways around MSab teams by using Smeargle with Skill Swap as their setter, it would make the strategy A LOT worse. Making an archetype drastically worse with a suspect test does of course always leave a sour taste, but not only may this be an acceptable side effect given the current strength of the strategy, but it has also been mentioned multiple times in the past (ironically especially in the sableye- and later dugtrio-suspect, regarding stall), that keeping an archetype "alive" is not something that has to be forced no matter the cost. Insert "if he dies, he dies"-meme here.
4) The Stall issue.
Now if I didn't save the best for last. A lot of players, particularly (but far from only) newer/lesser experienced ones, have a raging hateboner for everything that is even remotely resembling stall or defensive strategies. Mega Sableye just so happens to make these a lot better in a tier it exists in. While I personally don't see this as something inherently bad (as long as the strategies aren't oppressive), a lot of people would disagree with that just by the nature of games including fat balance, stall and semi-stall being longer on average. There are still two major points that imo drastically reduce the effect this would have on defensively oriented teams, and therefore reduce the potential "danger" of reintroducing Sableye. First of all, and this is something a lot of players like to forget when it comes to Stall, it should be noted that no team can ever be prepared for everything. Even if you disregard some of the anti-stall-measures that Sableye is good at shutting down (hazards, status, taunt), ORAS OU still has plenty of ways to combat and break Balance and Stall. Some of those ways have no reliable answer without the Stall player going out of their way and ignoring other threats. In the past, this "issue" was solved by including Trappers such as Gothitelle (Shadow Tag) and Dugtrio (Arena Trap). Lo and behold, neither of these are present in the tier anymore. I don't want to critizise earlier tiering decisions, as they were made by players much better than myself, but in retrospective, suspect testing Dugtrio/Arena Trap before Mega Sableye would've been a better solution, similar to how it was done in SM OU later on (there are of course other factors that came into play in Gen7, like Z-moves, the Tapus, etc., but the general concept still holds true). And while there are still strong trapping options for Stall such as Magnezone or Weavile, they are not only a lot weaker overall, but also trap a much more limited amount of threats to a Stall player. Second, the way some pokemon (such as Heatran, Lando or Reuniclus for example) are being used has changed or expanded a lot over the years, and pokemon that were not an issue for Stall earlier in the gen, can effectively threaten, or at the very least cause mindgames, against Sableye teams now. The very least this does, especially combined with the lack of a proper trapper, is force the Sableye user to make decisions in the teambuilder that will drastically affect their matchup against some threats. Knock Off vs Foul Play, physdef vs spdef and Fake Out vs Protect are just 3 things off the top of my head. Summed up, while it will certainly improve defensively oriented teams, due to other bans as well as the evolution of both the metagame and players, a reintroduction of Sableye would have much less of an impact as many people fear it could.
Alright, so that was it for now, I apologize for the wall of text this has become, but I think the points I brought up were important for this discussion. I'd like to hear the opinion of others, but please, as always, keep the discussion civil, as there are enough actual arguments to be made for either side that we don't have to resort to flaming each other ;) And maybe, if the discussion catches up properly, the council will decide whether or not a resuspect of Sableye is justified or not. Thanks for reading!
