Mega Salamence [Singles] [QC:0/3]

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DragonWhale

It's not a misplay, it's RNG manipulation
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Overview

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Legendary stats. It’s defenses surpasses Metagross, and even with a neutral nature it outspeeds Garchomp. Both of its offensive stats are also very respectable.

Great ability before and after mega evolving. Intimidate gives it great matchup against pretty much any physical attacker and it has the movepool to effectively use Aerialate

Great boosting move in Dragon Dance. Mega Salamence at +1 has almost zero switch-ins, guaranteeing a kill. If defensive walls have taken prior damage, Mega Salamence can easily sweep through an entire team. It does especially well against more offensively oriented teams.

It’s a very powerful Pokemon, so pretty much every opponent has something to stop Mega Salamence from sweeping their team. It also shares a quad-ice weakness with Garchomp, so teams don’t have to run gimmicky sets to stop it. Most Pokemon that learn Ice Beam and doesn’t have an abysmal special attack have it for this reason, making the meta a really hostile environment for Mega Salamence.

Taking a mega slot. It competes against Blaziken and Kangaskhan for this position, both of which are very powerful megas.

It doesn’t get a lot of opportunities to set up, and even if it does, many defensive Pokemon such as Suicune, Porygon2, and Cresselia switch in on the setup turn, either forcing you out or forcing you to sacrifice Salamence in turn for dealing damage. It also gets outsped and OHKOed by Greninja if it doesn’t boost.

Double-Edge recoil hurts, and especially against Pokemon wearing Rocky Helmet.

Doesn’t resist any form of status.


Dragon Dance

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name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Double-Edge
move 2: Dragon Dance
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Fire Blast/Draco Meteor/Outrage/Substitute
ability: Intimidate -> Aerialate
item: Salamencite
evs: 4HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
nature: Adamant/Naughty


Moves

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Double-Edge is the main source of damage from Mega Salamence, abusing the 156BP powerful STAB attack. Return also woks if you want to sacrifice a little firepower for no recoil, but it does lose out on potential OHKOs or 2HKOs. Facade is also an option here as it allows you to take advantage of status inducers, which is a common sight for Mega Salamence, but it won’t deal a lot of damage if you remain healthy.

Dragon Dance is the main setup move of Mega Salamence, allowing its attack to reach astronomical levels and outrun even Scarf Garchomp.

Earthquake is for coverage, allowing you to hit electric, steel, and rock types that resist Double-Edge.

Fire Blast is to hit flying resists that aren’t weak to Earthquake, most notably Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Scizor. Flamethrower is also an option here if you don’t like the inconsistency of Fire Blast, but you will miss out the OHKO on Mega Scizor and Skarmory won’t be in range when it switches into a Double-Edge.

Draco Meteor is a great STAB option for hitting physical walls. Hyper Voice is also a great move, but you’ll be losing coverage combined with Double-Edge. Naughty is the preferred nature with special attack in the fourth slot

Outrage provides another STAB option that allows you to 2HKO Zaps, but you’ll be locked into it and your opponent can take advantage of it. It also OHKOs Dragonite at +1.

Substitute allows you to bypass status inducers and potentially win you a free turn. Keep in mind that the substitute health drop combined with Double-Edge recoil it can affect its longevity. Roost is also another option for this slot, as it mitigates the recoil from Double Edge and you can have many opportunities to recover HP against favorable opponents (ie almost every physical attacker.


Set Details

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Standard physically offensive spread

Salamencite because mega

Adamant because it affects damage ranges for common Pokemon compared to Jolly. With Double-Edge, Azumarill becomes a range, Pokemon EV’d to take Garchomp’s Choice Band Earthquake are OHKO’d, and Suicune becomes a guaranteed 2HKO. Speed ties max base 105s, meaning it still outspeeds non-scarf Garchomp and base 100s like Mega Kangaskhan. Naughty if you have special attacks.


Usage Tips

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Keep in mind Salamence has a lot of bad matchups, most notably Porygon2 and Cresselia

Don’t set up Dragon Dance until everything is in range, especially those two above

Set up Dragon Dance against an opponent that cannot do much to you, then sweep

4th slot is completely flexible, depending on Pokemon your other teammates struggle against


Team Options

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Toxic users to widdle down physical tanks that hinder Salamence’s sweep and resists Ice Beam (Aegislash, Heatran, etc) or leech seed users like Ferrothorn

Volcarona can switch in and commence setting up Quiver Dances against common Salamence counters. Suicune, Raikou, and Sylveon can set up Calm Minds too. A phisical and special setup core.

Good teammate for Tyranitar/Excadrill since it helps get rid of Fighting types and removes opponent’s Earthquake spamming option.



Other Options

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Special Attacker: Hyper Voice, Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Roost/Sub/Earthquake. Catches people off guard when sending in a physical wall.

All for setup: Dragon Dance, Sub, Roost, Return: the easiest way to set up Dragon Dances, but lacks in coverage and is a little difficult to use consistently.

Defensive: Sub, Toxic, Roost, Return. Takes advantage of Salamence's great defenses, and can catch common switch-ins like Cresselia, Porygon2, and Zapdos off guard.


Checks & Counters

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**Defensive Ice move users** Porygon2, Cresselia, Zapdos, Suicune all survive +1 Double-Edge and retaliates with Ice Beam/Hidden Power Ice.

**Fast Special Attackers** Greninja, Mega Manectric, Thundurus, Latios (even at -2 with specs). Checks. Cannot check if Salamence reaches +1 (except Thundurus is a range unless defensive) At +1 Thundurus will more likely use Twave
 
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Still debating whether to make special attacker its own set, or leave it in OO. Pretty sure I'm missing a few in Checks and Counters too.
 
Really think a Defensive set deserves its own set, if not a large highlight in Other Options. The set is Substitute | Toxic | Roost | Return, and it has an EV spread of 244 HP / 4 Def / 84 SpD / 176 Spe with an Impish or Adamant nature. 176 Speed EVs was *supposed* to outspeed base 100s, but Showdown! was being dumb. :<. It's still a nice Speed investment and outspeeds base 95 and below, so it's probably worth it so you're not outsped by a bunch. 244 HP saves 8 EVs, and gives Mega Salamence 201 HP over 202 HP, but the difference is minimal in the long run. However, it allows you to hit exactly 84 SpD with 4 EVs to spare. 244 / 84 makes sure Rotom-Wash can not break Mega Salamence's Substitute with Volt Switch. This EV spread also allows Mega Salamence to live a Hidden Power Ice from Blaziken, which is pretty neat if you ask me. 4 Def EVs are the remaining, but they complete the spread and increase Mega Salamence's Defense by one. This really makes a huge difference, when put into damage calcs. For example, Mega Lopunny's Ice Punch goes from a 21.9% chance to 2HKO, all the way down to a 2.7% chance to 2HKO with just 4 EVs! This set is excellent because it allows Mega Salamence to break Porygon2, Cresselia, Rotom-Wash, which are all typical counters. I have to test this set in-game more, but I have very high hopes.

As far as Team Options go, Sylveon is an excellent partner. It is able to pivot into Mega Salamence, weaken Porygon2 and Cresselia, and has great synergy with Mence. Mega Salamence also can lure in Heatran and smash it with Earthquake, which I also think is a great move on Mega Salamence. Raikou, Rotom-Wash, and other Electric-types make for good partners because the aforementioned Pokemon take on Ice-type attacks, while Mega Salamence takes on Ground- and Grass-type attacks. Volt Switching to pivot in is nice as well. Klefki is a nice asset to Dragon Dance sets, but not exactly required. Thunder Wave support is great mainly because it paralyzes faster Pokemon that could cause potential issues for Mence. The two's synergy is also excellent, with the only types hitting them both neutrally being Ghost- and Dark-type moves. Electric- and Fairy-type Pokemon synergize very well with Mega Salamence in general. My favorite for each would have to be AV Raikou and also Specs Sylveon. AV Raikou takes on Mega Manectric very easily, and Mega Salamence doesn't like it because of Intimidate + resistance to Return / Double-Edge. Sylveon, as I've mentioned, is just great! Some Pokemon Mega Salamence hates: Mega Manectric, Mamoswine, Sylveon. Soft checks, at best, bar Mega Manectric, but they have to be accounted for when building around it.

I had this post ready a few days back, lol, so pardon me ;_;. I didn't realize it was a wall of text >.>
 
Yeah, but then you lose a lot of bulk :<. I guess it's an option, but I feel it's too much, hence why I kept it at 176 :p
Yeah I realize lol
I don't think you'd really need to go too in depth for EV spreads on an other option anyway
 
Put Sylveon and Raikou in as potential teammates, but the Calm Mind variant, since it's better than the Choice Specs/Assault Vest variants.

Left out EV spread on defensive, because I don't know what's good, and just saying 176 speed isn't going to help anybody.

I think this is ready for QC. I'll see what other people have to say about this analysis in the meantime.
 
For the defensive set, I feel that needs some more testing before it becomes a full set. Worst case, we can always add that thing later in a separate thread, since Mega Salamence is a pretty high priority Pokemon!

Some things I'd mention

-In the case of Facade: I love Facade Mega Salamence, but I prefered to use it in the last slot. I don't think its worth replacing Double-Edge with Facade because it makes Mega Salamence even more match-up reliant. However, when both are paired together, it makes Salamence a really nice switch-in to Toxic and Will-O-Wisp. Of course, mention that if you use Facade, you ARE going to lose some coverage!

-For the set details, I'd mention that Jolly and Naive can be cool if you're using a Dragon-type move. It can let Mega Salamence outspeed opposing Mega Salamence, and slam them with a Dragon-type move, which has saved me a few times! Also, +Speed nature lets Salamence outspeed regular Kangaskhan before the mega evolution, which I find rather handy since there's been a lot of Jolly Kangaskhan running around lately. I'd still make Adamant / Naughty the main slash ins though, but Jolly and Naive are certainly fine natures too.

-This doesn't happen TOO often in 3v3 compared to VGC and triples, but you might want to mention in usage tips that in certain situations, you might not want to Mega evolve Salamence right away to keep the Intimidate. Usually, this is in situations where Salamence can pick something off, and wants to come in later to Intimidate another mon.

-Teammate wise, Heracross is a decent scarfer because it can harm Porygon2 and Cresselia (doesn't do too well vs Suicune though). Also switches into Rotom-W Wisps which is nice.

-Maybe mention Choice Scarf in other options. It's mostly outclassed by Hydregion and Garchomp, but it does offer some surprise value, plus it has Moxie lol.

-Maybe mention Moxie in other options too. It screws up Salamence's bulk so it's usually worse, but if you pick off a Pokemon with regular Salamence, you do get a free +1 Attack, which can be really scary when you Mega Evolve.

-This is a biit shakey, but in checks and counters, there are a few Focus Sashers that Mega Salamence hates, mostly Greninja and Mamoswine.

Now for the special set... Interestingly enough, according to the PGL stats, Hyper Voice is used more than Fire Blast and Outrage. I've never seen a DD Salamence with Hyper Voice, so I imagine that's probably the special attacker set. I haven't used it myself though, but it does seem to have decent enough usage to be included as a set if you feel like it. If you do include it, a nice thing to note is that Specially based Mega Salamence dodges rocky helmet and recoil a lot more easily than the DD set.
 
Reviving this since Salamence is back in the top 12 (and it's been over two months since the last post)

1) I'd slash Roost into the DD set as it takes great advantage of Salamence's bulk and allows it to continually switch into the likes of Blaziken, Landorus-T, and even Aegislash.
2) Outrage is pretty meh. I'd remove that. Maybe mention it in OO.
3) Not sold on Draco Meteor for the DD set either.
4) A Mixed set (DM/FBlast/Double Edge/Hyper Voice) might be worth mentioning as a set it can draw out checks like Zapdos, Rotom-W, Skarmory, Hippowdon, etc, and hurt them. It also opens up more coverage options and flexibility (such as not having to Double Edge against certain Rocky Helmet mons).
5) Double Edge/Sub/Toxic/Roost with Jolly, max Speed, HP/SpDef investment seems to be rising in usage and is worth mentioning as a set since it dumpsters most of its checks. The HP/SpDef investments appear to vary from player to player. Some invest near max HP while others invest ~100 into SpDef.
 
I would have thought Return would be superior on the SubToxic set. Either way I agree that it should be added. Also seconding that a mixed set should be added (not full special though). Get those three in and I'll give a check
 
Physical-oriented Mixed Salamence@Salamencite

Nature: Naive
Ability: Intimidate > Aerilate
EVs: 190 Atk / 68 SpA / 252 Spe
- Double Edge
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast

vs 6HP Latios - Double Edge: 106.3 - 125.3% & Draco Meteor: 106.6 - 126% (1HKO)
vs 252HP/252SpD Sassy Ferrothorn: Double Edge: 59.9 - 70.7% & Fire Blast: 72.7 - 86.3% (2HKO)
vs 252HP Heatran - Earthquake: 111.9 - 132.6% (1HKO)
vs 252HP Aegislash in Shieldform - Earthquake: 50.3% - 59.9% (2HKO)
vs 252HP/252DEF Bold Mega Venusaur - Double Edge: 90.6 - 107.1% (1HKO)

The calculations above show only a handful of what this mega salamence can do. In my honest opinion, this is the best overall mence set. The BS metagame is far too well prepared for DDM-Mence, and special mega salamence, in particular. However, this mixed variant of mega mence just tears down the metagame. I was wondering if some of the others can use this set to see how well they fare. It was used for my team that got me to 1800+ only. But it was used by #1 Korean BS singles player, Jeong-Hoon, to get him to 2000+. I really do think the physical-oriented mixed set is the best overall set for mega mence that others should really try out that does not lag behind when compared to the likes of Mega Kang even.
 
I haven't tried it on battle spot but I think it is worth mentioning Trash as another option over Double-Edge since it does not have the recoil but comes with the same risk as Outrage.
 
Are you still working on this DragonWhale? Would be great to get this done asap since Mence is back in the top 12. I guess we just need to get a special / mixed set up, and probably a Sub-Toxic one too. I think Kye's set looks pretty good for the mixed one. Is there any point in having one with Hyper Voice? It gets ~28% usage, and hits past Subs so it has merit. Sub-Toxic is a bit tricky coz I'm not sure on the EV spread in terms of speed tier, how much attack you need to hurt certain things etc... I think unfixable mentioned a spread on IRC a while back
 
I've seen spA-oriented mixed mence A LOT recently...well...a lot of mega salamences in general. While hyper voice is significantly weaker than...say double edge, it catches quite a few people off guard it seems like as they usually bring out physically bulky pokemons to take hits from mega salamences before the get their surprises. I think spA-oriented mixed mega mence deserves to have its own set tbh.
 
I know this may sound silly but giga impact does ridiculous amount of damage. On a set with, say,

naughty
252atk/252spe/4hp
-double-edge-
-draco meteor
-giga impact
-earthquake

I was catching things like porygon2 and cresselia off guard by doing ridiculous amount of damage with giga impact+drco meteor or giga double edge+giga impact. I never thought to use it before I saw a Japanese player use hyper beam on mega mence.
 
So I talked to DragonWhale, he doesn't have as much time as he used too, while as of recently I have plenty of time, so I'll be taking this over. Thanks for the skeleton and help DragonWhale!
 
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