Item Mega Stones: Use on Multiple Pokemon

[Rafael J. Feliciano]

Frankly i find this idea pointless. If a pokemon is viable both with and without the mega stone it already create mindgames naturally and if it inst viable without the mega stone then youre just using shooting yourself in the foot. It just doesnt make any sense to me.

I think that question that the OP was trying to raise implies that certain items, like Life Orb and Leftovers, are obvious when used. However, for other pokemon like Scizor and TTar, who are viable Choice Band users, and Garchomp, a viable Choice Scarf User, would the presence of Two Mega Stones on a team provide more benefit/flexibility than say the above mentioned choice items?

Personally, I have no problem with it. In the end, as long as the builder of the team is happy with the final product they are presenting, whether on PS or on Wifi, then having to mons that can utilize their stones given the appropriate situation is nothing to sneer at.

 

[NeoPlague]

I would like to stress the fact that few pokemon actually get typing or ability changes from their mega formes, even fewer of these mons would be pressed to find a time when staying in their un-evolved state. A lot of the time if you're going to use this strategy, I find that using a surprise factor would be much more effective almost all of the time.

For example, say you want to have two mega capable mons on the same team. Gyarados being probably the most flexible mega-capable mon available, and partnering it with a choice scarf moxie pinsir to clean up Gyarados' carnage would be much more viable than having one of the two be item-less.

With that said, I feel the real problem with this is not having many mega-capable mons to choose from atm. Very few of the mons capable of mega-evolving would scarcely find it advantageous to not mega-evolve, and most are staying virtually the same which I feel leaves them outclassed by their non-mega form most of the time given the proper item [eg. SD Scizor w/ life orb] anyway.

This is a good idea, but we simply don't have enough to work with at this time. Perhaps it will actually be worthwhile sometimes when/if more pokemon that are actually good on their own are given forms that perform differently and synergistically [eg. Venusaur is best off being used offensively as a chlorophyll user, while mega-venu is primarily built for tanking.] with their un-evolved form.

 

[Hibiki]

The only viability that comes from this is having two flexible megas that can utilise their mega more effectively than the other depending on who they're facing. "Mindgames" are a waste of time.

 

[56k]

Where do good teams come from? One way to answer is "good players build good teams", but another way to consider it is discovering good teams. There's an absolutely vast amount of pokemon team permutations out there and only 1% of them are any good. Ladder worthy. But that 1% is still an absolutely massive number. Like, heat death of the universe big, considering movesets and EV combinations and such. There's basically guaranteed to millions of great team permutations out there that just happen to include 2 megas on them. Maybe everyone could stop discouraging the idea and acknowledge the numbers. The only trick is going to be narrowing in on how to "discover" those teams with complementary megas.

My guess is it would be 2 megas that change the MOST upon megaevolution, basically giving you that many more options. Garchomp and TTars bulk change is very significant, adding a wide new set of attacks that they can survive. If they don't mega they can still get the OHKOs they need with STABs and 4x effective moves. Complementing them might be something like Alakazam, whose ability changes significantly from Magic Guard to Trace. Even if he doesn't megaevolve he has great speed, but pushing the mega button lets him get past greninja and noivern. All three of those pokemon can "do their job" without a mega boost, but get subtle new tools when they evolve. These are only examples I thought of in 5 minutes and there's probably better complemantary pokemon.

They don't need to cover eachother's weaknesses, the team of 4 nonmegas can do that. However, covering eachother's weaknesses isn't bad of course. I just think you could probably take any 2 megas and make a top-of-the-ladder team if you discovered the right way to assign their moves, stats, and teammates.

 

[Strykeypoo]

I don't think there are enough pokemon with viable standard forms that also benefit significantly from mega evolving. Mega Scizor and Mega Tyranitar are in most cases a 'sidegrade' with that an upgrade, with the possibility of using either of those two as megas not making up for the opportunity cost of always having one itemless pokemon on your team.

The only time I feel this was viable was when Mega Gengar and Mega Lucario were in OU. They are the only megas that had strong standard forms but strong enough mega forms that could possibly offset the loss of an item.

 

[Habib]

I'd say its viable.

Especially worth it for doubles matches and team previews.

 

[doughboy]

There is a reason why Game Freak implemented 1 Mega-Evolution per battle as opposed to one Mega-Stone per team; to cater to the VGC metagame. By implementing the mechanics this way, a VGC team can use whichever one of its two Mega-Evolutions that is most appropriate to the battle on the team preview screen. Essentially your team of six has 2 Mega-Evolutions, with strategy A using Mega-Evolution A and strategy B using Mega-Evolution B. The 4 other pokemon you have can be used in both strategies.

Singles is a much different story. In singles, you essentially eliminate the item slot of one of your Pokemon, essentially crippling it. In VGC that does not happen because you may not use that Pokemon at all depending on your choice in team preview. Using two Mega-Stones is a bad idea because you exchanging the strength of the central strategy of your team for an advantage that is extremely situational. You should be aiming to make a team that will give you an advantage in the majority of battles, and using two Mega-Stones directly conflicts with that goal. You'll get a lot more mileage for using a good item on your Pokemon + mega-evolution than itemless + mega-evolution, mindgames be damned.

 

[Hootie]

Mind games can only take you so far and having pokemon essentially crippled an entire match is never a good thing and is bad team building. You already give the opponent mind games by having multiple pokemon that can mega evolve on one team.

 

[Lathyndis]

Mind games can only take you so far and having pokemon essentially crippled an entire match is never a good thing and is bad team building. You already give the opponent mind games by having multiple pokemon that can mega evolve on one team.

While I respect your input I do believe a few things should be mentioned on the subject of crippling pokemon in exchange for mega stones.

I will start with an example, team preview would tell you if the opponent has a Zoroark, but you have to scout for him and he can easily be any pokemon. While I will agree many pokemon are useless without their megastones, this does not mean many pokemon that can mega evolve are useless without megaevolving. In my experience I've fought many teams sacrificing life orbs for megastones for the sake of unpredictability, while it comes at a cost. Having the opponent not predict you correctly can really turn the tables of a match. Also in Battle Spot singles you're only really using three pokemon out of your six.

 

[Hootie]

While I respect your input I do believe a few things should be mentioned on the subject of crippling pokemon in exchange for mega stones.

I will start with an example, team preview would tell you if the opponent has a Zoroark, but you have to scout for him and he can easily be any pokemon. While I will agree many pokemon are useless without their megastones, this does not mean many pokemon that can mega evolve are useless without megaevolving. In my experience I've fought many teams sacrificing life orbs for megastones for the sake of unpredictability, while it comes at a cost. Having the opponent not predict you correctly can really turn the tables of a match. Also in Battle Spot singles you're only really using three pokemon out of your six.

A pokemon that's missing their leftovers, life orb, choice scarf, etc. (i.e. a choice banded Scizor is way more useful than item-less Scizor) is not worth using two mega stones to create pointless mind games. The opportunity cost to using two mega stones on your team is way too big for such little payoff. Battle spot is irrelevant on 6v6 Smogon standard so there's no point to really bringing that up.

 

[Double Electric]

I use two mega-stones on my fast baton pass team. Mega-Evolutions are pretty good Baton Pass Receivers for fast pass, and since fast pass is usually one-shot anyway, it's worth it to have the greater options that the M-evolutions give you for potential receivers. I remember before how I was using Mawile and Gyarados as two of the receivers and was really pained at how Gyarados "couldn't" use its M-stone because Mawile needed it. Then it dawned on me that using a M-stone on both is actually an option. (Note that doing this pretty much requires that your third receiver has a Lum Berry.)

Granted, fast-pass is tough to use in this metagame and is arguably a gimmick, but as far as this thread goes, it's definitely exemplifies a situation in which having more than one M-Stone is an option worth consideration.

 

[Lord Ghetsis]

I do like the idea of two stones, because it does prevent Knock Off from knocking off the stones and doing extra damage. However, it does render most Pokémon not MEvoing less useful. If I have a Garchomp and a Tyranitar, then all bets are off. If Garchomp is, say, a Manectric(for any reason), it's certain Manectric will MEvo.

 

[The Yellow King]

I guess it could work, but your strategy in battle would need to be very adaptive. This would mostly prevent you from having a reliable core, which is a huge disadvantage. To be honest, I prefer to run no mega evolutions, and I think you'll find that to be the case the higher you climb the ladder. Mega Pokemon are great, but I feel they're pretty unnecessary. This is because the extremely good ones were banned to Ubers, and the rest have become so common that counters for them are on essentially every team; think Mega Charizard Y or Mega Pinsir. Thundurus-I, another S-ranked Pokemon, counters both of them pretty hard.

 

[Rosen]

It can work. I've been using a SubCM Mega Gardevoir and Mega Ampharos. If the team has Toxic Stall Gliscor/Breloom, Mega Evolve Gardevoir to break through the sub with STAB hyper voice. Albeit this is very situational and tailored to my needs, so I wouldn't recommend it to everyone.

 

[SoulRed12]

With all this discussion of using two mega stones to create mind games, I think it would be a good idea to reemphasize that using two mega stones does NOT create mind games, because your opponent does not KNOW what your items are (until the pokemon comes out, of course, and even then many times not until they actually use a move). What creates mind games is simply using two pokemon that CAN mega evolve (or choose to not mega evolve, which is important--whereas normal Garchomp is still extremely viable, if you are bringing Charizard or Pinsir your opponent will pretty much know they are holding their mega stone unless you're super low on the ladder).

What they are ACTUALLY holding is irrelevant, because as I mentioned the opponent can't tell until they actually make a move (unless they switch in mid-turn on rocks or an attack or something and leftovers activates) meaning that if you are just going for mind games then actually giving two pokemon mega stones is irrelevant.

 

[Rosen]

With all this discussion of using two mega stones to create mind games, I think it would be a good idea to reemphasize that using two mega stones does NOT create mind games, because your opponent does not KNOW what your items are (until the pokemon comes out, of course, and even then many times not until they actually use a move). What creates mind games is simply using two pokemon that CAN mega evolve (or choose to not mega evolve, which is important--whereas normal Garchomp is still extremely viable, if you are bringing Charizard or Pinsir your opponent will pretty much know they are holding their mega stone unless you're super low on the ladder).

What they are ACTUALLY holding is irrelevant, because as I mentioned the opponent can't tell until they actually make a move (unless they switch in mid-turn on rocks or an attack or something and leftovers activates) meaning that if you are just going for mind games then actually giving two pokemon mega stones is irrelevant.

It has other uses besides mind games. Which, as you correctly say, it doesn't do in the first place

 

[BatNinja]

The only four Pokemon which can Mega Evolve that are functional in OU without their Mega Evolutions are Garchomp, Tyranitar, Scizor, and Gyarados. So if you are going to actually run two Mega Stones on your team, you would have to run two of these four to avoid having dead weight on your team. Even then, the issue is that these Pokemon are played very differently depending on whether they have a Mega Stone or not. For example, DD Mega Tyranitar is good, but DD regular Ttar is not. So you still have problems avoiding basically being down a Pokemon to start the match. While running two Mega Stones sounds interesting, it generally causes more disadvantages than advantages.

I'm not bashing smogon or anything, but on vgc, you could bluff gengarite

 

[RotomPoison]

^ We literally have a VGC subforum.

I can only see this working with Garchomp + Scizor, since I suppose Scizor beats Togekiss for Garchomp and Garchomp can (depending on the EVs) beat opposing Scizor.

 

[Rosen]

The only four Pokemon which can Mega Evolve that are functional in OU without their Mega Evolutions are Garchomp, Tyranitar, Scizor, and Gyarados. So if you are going to actually run two Mega Stones on your team, you would have to run two of these four to avoid having dead weight on your team. Even then, the issue is that these Pokemon are played very differently depending on whether they have a Mega Stone or not. For example, DD Mega Tyranitar is good, but DD regular Ttar is not. So you still have problems avoiding basically being down a Pokemon to start the match. While running two Mega Stones sounds interesting, it generally causes more disadvantages than advantages.

Gengar, Lucario, and Alakazam are all perfectly functional without their mega evolutions. I'd argue that normal Alakazam is actually better.

 

[Adonzo]

That is honestly one of the worst examples you could've possibly posted. Mawile and Kangaskhan are both pretty bad without Mega Evolving.

EDIT: Post this was in reply to deleted, was saying the strategy wasn't viable because it didn't work while running Mawile and Kanga.

 

[PokeMaster366]

If VGC U.S. Nationals is anything to go by, the use of more than 1 Mega Evolution in not recommended. A majority of the teams that made it to the second day used only 1 Mega Evolution, and of all the teams that made it to the Top 8 in the Masters Division, only 1 of them had more than 1 Mega Evolution. Like most everyone here has brought up, having more than 1 Pokemon hold a Mega Stone is wasting an item slot that could be used for something better like Life Orbs or Leftovers. The strategy could work on Battle Spot singles/doubles or VGCs since you're not bringing every Pokemon into battle at once, but it puts a severe restriction on what combinations of Pokemon you can bring into battle, so all in all, adding Mega Evolution diversity in your team can limit your team's overall diversity and make it even more predictable than it was with only one.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Gengar, Lucario, and Alakazam are all perfectly functional without their mega evolutions. I'd argue that normal Alakazam is actually better.

Two of them have banned megas and the other needs an item to be functional in base form. He mentioned those pokes because they can work on a double stone team.

Ive had some success with a ttar garchomp double mega stone team. If I think ttar can dd sweep, I mega ttar. If I need to wall break I setup sand with ttar and smash some walls with mega garchomp. Obviously there is a little more that goes into that thought process, but you get the gist.

 

[The_Derpy_Chicken]

The way I see it, the entire point of two mega stones would be for versatility, not for strength in one certain way. So then if you don't build this type of team to function in multiple ways, then you are basically defeating the point. It's a bit like a mixed sweeper in that you use whatever suits you best at the time. Only, you get to choose whether you want choice specs or band during the battle, and have no item until you choose. Once you've chosen, you lose your versatility, in exchange for more of whatever it is you need. IMO, the choice would be worth it if your team works well with both choices. Two mini teams, if you will.

Edit: I have actually used teams like that, where it is basically two mini teams, with decent success

 

[Karxrida]

I fail to see the merit in this strategy. Most Megas are only viable as Megas, and the few that are viable otherwise run completely different sets from their base form due to stat/ability changes. Mega Garchomp for example runs a mixed set without max speed so a Garchomp in this kind of team would be severely gimped at its job should you choose to Mega something else.

Using a strategy like this is akin to using a Red Mage in Final Fantasy; sure you are more versatile, but you are much less powerful overall and there will be a lot of times you wished you had specialized a bit more instead of going the "Jack of all Trades, Master of None" route.