Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

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Duck Chris

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what does everyone think about rain right now?
I think it's only getting better honestly. The development of some common balance teams allows rain to tech in specific threats to break past it's few counters, and TTar and Zard Y can only change the weather so many times while being threatened by common rainmons.

Any interesting changes you've seen on rain recently? And what's the best way to deal with it?
 
what does everyone think about rain right now?
I think it's only getting better honestly. The development of some common balance teams allows rain to tech in specific threats to break past it's few counters, and TTar and Zard Y can only change the weather so many times while being threatened by common rainmons.

Any interesting changes you've seen on rain recently? And what's the best way to deal with it?
Rain has a good matchup vs offense and balance, but loses pretty badly to stall. Surprisingly, one mon that I think decimates rain is hippowdon which isn't too common, but if rain rises in usage, hippowdon will make sure it goes back down. I could see rain doing well in SPL or a format where you know the players and what kinds of teams they build.
 
Hippo is pretty awful against rain because it's slower than every one of Rain's sweepers outside the rain, and it can't even switch into anything as offensive as even Damp Rock Pelipper.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
Duggy > Mega Mawile

everyone who agrees say I.

*ahem* - on another note, I'd like to share some ideas about Mega Alakazam, and what it can do with Trace.

alakazam-mega.gif


Alakazam-Mega @ Alakazite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball

1) Protean:
With Protean Greninja running around - Mega Alakazam can be extremely deadly if he gets a hold of it.
Replay evidence: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-539419310 (and yes it was a crappy team, I was just having a bit of fun last night).

In fact, let me find some calcs...
  • 252 SpA Protean Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 338-402 (87.5 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 SpA Protean Alakazam-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 302-356 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 252 SpA Protean Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 SpA Protean Alakazam-Mega Dazzling Gleam vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 342-404 (89.2 - 105.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 SpA Protean Alakazam-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 302-356 (101 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 252 SpA Protean Alakazam-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Mawile-Mega: 135-160 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Obviously there are more examples I could find, alongside a lot of things that can scare Mega Alakazam out (Dark types with a secondary typing the resists Fairy are such examples - 252 SpA Protean Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 160-190 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock) - but aside from that (and a couple of Tapus), switchins are a minority, making this thing deadly in the right hands.

2) Beast Boost / Soul-Heart:
Aside from anything not named Scarf Phermosa - tracing Beast Boost allows this thing to snowball weakened teams without question (Celesteela is a fiddly MU without being weakened), as you get Sp.Atk boost with each kill (and as you outspeed basically everything unboosted in OU besides Phermosa and Mega Aerodactyl (latter a speed tie)) - switchins become almost a non-option, as its coverage allows it snipe a lot of things coming in. Calcs (again):
  • 252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 193-228 (68.4 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
  • 252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marowak-Alola: 262-310 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Sableye-Mega: 194-230 (64 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 218-258 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xurkitree: 244-288 (79.4 - 93.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 177-208 (56.9 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and this is at 0 - and various 2HKOs should likely kill at +1 from the Beast Boost. From there, a sweep is imminent.

There are other abilities I could discuss (such as Sheer Force), but other good ideas I have are mostly from abilities not commonly seen in OU. If anyone has any other ideas, I think it would be good to hear them.

In fact - this was the core I was working from:

alakazam-mega.png

Alakazam-Mega @ Alakazite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball

serperior.gif

Serperior @ Grassium Z
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Grassy Terrain

smeargle.gif

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Own Tempo
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 168 Def / 88 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Sticky Web
- Spore

Think anyone could lend a hand?
 
Im sorry but in what universe does a passive Pokemon with a water weakness decimate rain
To be fair, as long as sand is up and every two turns, Hippo more than decimates most rain pokemon. Kabutops and lefties are some of the few exceptions.

The problem lies within our use of the word decimation.

That being said, Hippo is really bad against Rain.
 
Ok maybe I was being a bit silly by saying hippo alone decimates rain (it was late at night and I was super tired). What I should have said was that rain has a bad matchup against opposing weather such as sand.

To add to what pokes I think beat rain, choice scarf phero can outspeed rain sweepers in the rain and ohko all of them after rocks. Aqua jet kabutops might be an issue, but psychic terrain exists.
 

Martin

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To be fair, as long as sand is up and every two turns, Hippo more than decimates most rain pokemon. Kabutops and lefties are some of the few exceptions.
I'm confused as to how Hippo "decimates most rain Pokemon" when literally all of the the actually good rain 'mons (consisting of Kingdra, Ash Greninja and a few other Swift Swimmers) give it no opportunities to come in... well, ever. It doesn't reset the rain without dying as long as any of those or Pelipper is on the field, and that leaves it with a grand total of 2-3 team slots at most which it can do anything with in theory, with it typically failing that in practice when you consider that it doesn't actually threaten fucking anything short of Tapu Koko (overrated on rain imho) due to how passive it is.

If you want a Pokemon that can reset the weather you're better off going with Alolan Ninetales which... y'know, actually beats the stuff it's resetting weather against while giving Pelipper no opportunities to come in due to Freeze Dry, and even then it's pretty pants in general and mandates a very specific build type to be good in general. Generally speaking the best counetermeasures to rain come from defensive stops like Ferrothorn, AV Tang, Gastrodon etc., from exceedingly fast scarfers such as Pheromosa or Tapu Koko.
Ok maybe I was being a bit silly by saying hippo alone decimates rain (it was late at night and I was super tired). What I should have said was that rain has a bad matchup against opposing weather such as sand.
This is somewhat of a fallacy imo because all a sand setter is really able to do is delay the inevitable. I'd argue that the only weather which really has a good rain matchup is hail courtesy of Alolan Ninetales, and even then it involves using a generally mediocre Pokemon. The issue with Hippowdon is that it has no way of really punishing people for going to Pelipper the moment that it comes out to get the rain back up, and while Tyranitar is capable of dissuading this with its Rock-type STAB it still suffers from the same issue as Hippo in that it doesn't really come in on anything.
 
You don't just lose Damp Rock, you also lose reliable recovery and defog. I mean, Specs power is nice and all, but you're basically a less-bulky Politoed at that point.
I think Politoed is the better specs setter if you really need one in your team
 
I'm confused as to how Hippo "decimates most rain Pokemon" when literally all of the the actually good rain 'mons (consisting of Kingdra, Ash Greninja and a few other Swift Swimmers) give it no opportunities to come in... well, ever. It doesn't reset the rain without dying as long as any of those or Pelipper is on the field, and that leaves it with a grand total of 2-3 team slots at most which it can do anything with in theory, with it typically failing that in practice when you consider that it doesn't actually threaten fucking anything short of Tapu Koko (overrated on rain imho) due to how passive it is.

If you want a Pokemon that can reset the weather you're better off going with Alolan Ninetales which... y'know, actually beats the stuff it's resetting weather against while giving Pelipper no opportunities to come in due to Freeze Dry, and even then it's pretty pants in general and mandates a very specific build type to be good in general. Generally speaking the best counetermeasures to rain come from defensive stops like Ferrothorn, AV Tang, Gastrodon etc., from exceedingly fast scarfers such as Pheromosa or Tapu Koko.

This is somewhat of a fallacy imo because all a sand setter is really able to do is delay the inevitable. I'd argue that the only weather which really has a good rain matchup is hail courtesy of Alolan Ninetales, and even then it involves using a generally mediocre Pokemon. The issue with Hippowdon is that it has no way of really punishing people for going to Pelipper the moment that it comes out to get the rain back up, and while Tyranitar is capable of dissuading this with its Rock-type STAB it still suffers from the same issue as Hippo in that it doesn't really come in on anything.
Pelliper can only come in so many times before rocks and rock moves (from ttar) get the better of it. I agree that the best answer to rain is scarf phero
 
In regards to Rain setters, has Politoed completely been replaced by Pelipper in everyone's teams?

I realise Pelipper has advantages in Roost, U-Turn and Hurricane, but it's pretty frail.

Politoed is overall quite a lot bulkier and also faster, and this only comes at cost of slightly less special attack. Both mons only have 2 weaknesses, although it should be noted Pelipper dies to any Electric attack due to a x4 weakness and it is also weak to Stealth Rock. Politoed can survive super effective hits.

Politoed has a few niche moves as well like Encore, Hypnosis, Psychic and Hyper Voice. And being grounded can help with the benefits from terrains.

So I'm not convinced Pelipper is superior.
 
In regards to Rain setters, has Politoed completely been replaced by Pelipper in everyone's teams?

I realise Pelipper has advantages in Roost, U-Turn and Hurricane, but it's pretty frail.

Politoed is overall quite a lot bulkier and also faster, and this only comes at cost of slightly less special attack. Both mons only have 2 weaknesses, although it should be noted Pelipper dies to any Electric attack due to a x4 weakness and it is also weak to Stealth Rock. Politoed can survive super effective hits.

Politoed has a few niche moves as well like Encore, Hypnosis, Psychic and Hyper Voice. And being grounded can help with the benefits from terrains.

So I'm not convinced Pelipper is superior.
Being able to bring things in safe is pretty big especially when you consider that you need Scarf Pheromosa, A-Ninetails or priority to hit them before they hit you with a rain boosted specs hydro pump.

Hurricane also means that it really only needs it's STABs for damage. Politoed might have psychic or hyper voice, but this really is nothing as a SE Psychic roughtly hits as hard as STAB boosted Hurricane anyway.

Hypnosis is really unreliable, might mess with your mons, but unreliable and Encore can be annoying, but you shouldn't set up against Toad anyway, might give them free switches to bring in Kingdra or Koko or Gren or Ludicolo and we won't risk that.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
Hang on, if you're using z grassy terrain to boost serp's speed, wouldn't it lower serp's speed instead because of contrary? Or do z status moves ignore that?
I'm aware of that (or I might want to do some field testing, not sure). Grassium Z is really there for +2 fueled Bloom Doom - and Grassy Terrain is really just filler. All serp' really needs is Leaf Storm / HP Fire / Dpulse and the last slot is filler (that / Knock Off / Synthesis and others).

If anything, I think that set can 6-0 stall - with good play and a bit of chip from teammates.
 

Ema Skye

Work!
In regards to Rain setters, has Politoed completely been replaced by Pelipper in everyone's teams?

I realise Pelipper has advantages in Roost, U-Turn and Hurricane, but it's pretty frail.

Politoed is overall quite a lot bulkier and also faster, and this only comes at cost of slightly less special attack. Both mons only have 2 weaknesses, although it should be noted Pelipper dies to any Electric attack due to a x4 weakness and it is also weak to Stealth Rock. Politoed can survive super effective hits.

Politoed has a few niche moves as well like Encore, Hypnosis, Psychic and Hyper Voice. And being grounded can help with the benefits from terrains.

So I'm not convinced Pelipper is superior.
In terms of offensive potential, Pelipper wins because Hurricane is a nuke. Flying STAB is incredible, and between Hurricane and Hydro Pump, nothing really wants to come in. Specs Hurricane does a clean 60% to Tapu Fini, who otherwise walls Politoed. Pelipper also brings in U-Turn, which is amazing for offensive teams, as Pelipper is slow and a slow U-Turn brings in many otherwise fragile rain sweepers (or something like Dugtrio). Better bulk is also a bit of a misnomer, as Pelipper does have Roost to compensate for its lower stats. Pelipper also has solid resistances, especially to Bug and Fighting, as well as a Ground immunity, which lets it check both Landorus-T and Pheromosa.
 

Leo

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In terms of offensive potential, Pelipper wins because Hurricane is a nuke. Flying STAB is incredible, and between Hurricane and Hydro Pump, nothing really wants to come in. Specs Hurricane does a clean 60% to Tapu Fini, who otherwise walls Politoed. Pelipper also brings in U-Turn, which is amazing for offensive teams, as Pelipper is slow and a slow U-Turn brings in many otherwise fragile rain sweepers (or something like Dugtrio). Better bulk is also a bit of a misnomer, as Pelipper does have Roost to compensate for its lower stats. Pelipper also has solid resistances, especially to Bug and Fighting, as well as a Ground immunity, which lets it check both Landorus-T and Pheromosa.
If we're talking about rain teams then Specs Peli is definitely not an option. You need those 8 turns for your rain sweepers and most of the time you need some bulk investment. I'm not saying Specs Peli is a bad set but it doesn't fit on rain teams that would prefer those extra rain turns. Of course you can use Specs Peli alongside a rain abuser on a team just like Zamrock's team for week 5 iirc but if you're building a proper rain team support Peli is the go-to set imo
 
So now that our angel has returned to us....

Let's talk about stall.

Currently, I see two major archtypes of stall being used but I think three are viable. The two common ones are Venu, Sable stall. I think the third viable option is Zard-Y stall, not X. ZardY has the interesting proponent of countering Heatran incredibly well that only Flygon (yes I know. But it's an unrequited love) and Zygarde really also have. Moltres seems cool but doesn't actually have a way to hit heatran. Probably won't cover it here because I'm only one stall team in and although I'll drop the importable, it is noticeably mine... you'll see what I mean.

First up: Sable stall.

Now I'm actually never good with Sable stall simply because I don't use it much. However seeing as any time I watch a stall game, it's 90% this team I'm pretty sure I get the general concept.

For this, I'll be using the following teams:

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Def / 180 SpD
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover

Skarmory @ Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Counter
- Defog
- Roost
- Spikes

Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic Spikes
- Haze
- Recover

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 196 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell
- Moonblast

Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Reversal
- Toxic
- Screech


Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Stealth Rock
- Soft-Boiled
- Toxic

Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SpD
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover

Skarmory @ Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Defog

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Pursuit
- Ice Punch

Tangrowth @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Scald
- Curse
- Earthquake
- Recover


Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Will-O-Wisp
- Knock Off
- Recover

Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 156 Spe
Mild Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Shadow Ball
- Baton Pass
- Protect
- Will-O-Wisp

Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 21 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Earthquake
- Screech
- Reversal
- Sucker Punch

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Scald
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Knock Off

Togekiss @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Roost
- Heal Bell
- Defog

Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic
- Recover
- Haze



+AjTheEpic: .usage1695 Sableye-Mega, teammates
*TIBot: Chansey +55.026% | Dugtrio +54.801% | Toxapex +40.872% | Skarmory +34.995% | Shedinja +24.153% | Clefable +20.409% | Quagsire +19.157% | Zapdos +13.841% | Alomomola +9.482% | Togekiss +8.859% | Seismitoad +7.942% | Amoonguss +4.396%

So the team I've considered 'standard' holds true. Actually, in this we see components from every team.

Let's talk about roles in a Mega Sable team. It goes without saying Stealth rocks exist.
For context, every Pink bold name in TIBot is a fairy resist/immune. Every Blue bold mon (or mix) represents a hazard clearer. Every Orange bold is capable of taking fire attacks (or capable of eliminating fire attacks: Dug). Lastly, every cleric (wish or heal bell) is labeled Purple. There are a few other broad roles I would consider useful to sable (mainly, flying spam counter) but we can discuss that individually.

So the form I see is:

Sableye, 2 fairy resists/immune, 3 fire stops, one cleric. Normally this takes up the space of five mons. For reference:

Ladder Hero Stall:
Sable
3 Fire stops (Dug, Chansey, Toxapex).
2 Fairy stops: (Toxapex, Skarmory)
1 Defogger: Skarmory
One cleric (Clefable)

MSU Stall:
Sable
3 fire stops (Chansey, Tyranitar, Quagsire)
1.5 Fairy stops (Quag/Tang (dedicated Azum counter pair), Skarmory)
1 Cleric (chansey)
1 defogger (Skarmory)

J0ris/Playerw17 Shed Stall:
Sable
3 Fire stops (Dugtrio, Toxapex, Seismatoad)
2 fairy stops (Shedinja, Toxapex)
1 defogger (togekiss)
1 Cleric (togekiss)

What's really interesting is that there is such a huge emphasis on fire stops. And I get it, including Chansey as a fire stop seems strange but there's actually only one physical fire attacker you normally concern yourself with (ZardX). By definition, Chansey is one of the few mons that actually stops ZardY so I feel it's a fine assumption that this plays a huge part in chansey's role on sable's team. I would wonder if this isn't an overcompensation but the honest part is normally it goes trapper, special wall, physical wall.

The second thing is, Sable teams that I've studied ALL HAVE TRAPPERS. Is it just Duggy is super fucking good? Meh, could be. But even MSU's team which forgoes Dug takes TTar instead. Not like TTar is the best fire stop ever, he could've gone Zygarde to make sure heatran never had a chance. Instead it's scarf pursuit TTar.

Interestingly, a lot of pressure is put on Skarmory in these teams. As we can see in importables, both sets run Shed shell. This is because Skarm fills a hidden 3rd role: Meta/Pinsir-Mega check. Skarmory shows to be the only mon capable of stopping Pinisr and normally seems to work in conjunction with the trapper to take Metagross. Given this, the meta adaptation predictably shows a large increase in Magnezones, which has given rise to the required shed shell. He's also seen as the ground check in the standard team. In essence, it seems that skarmory is overworked and possibly undervalued by usage given his huge role in keeping these teams running.

There's also a general hole to Dark/Ghost attacks. Marowak for example, Hoopa-U and even Gengar (though less so) can all give these teams a real issue. Though MSU's team in particular crushes these threats with a pursuit trapper. These ghost and dark types can still be a royal pain in the ass for sable teams.

Lastly, I also am surprised at the lack of Magearna on these teams. Magearna's AV set offers a nice dark, fairy check and is one of the better Hoopa-U counters in the game. It also gets volt switch to help trap pairings. That being said, it is understandable that it is a fire weak and these teams are rightfully really against having a fire weakness addition.

Okay onto MVenu Stall teams.

I'll be honest, I'm not going to use as many base model teams here. I know MVenu stall fairly well so this will be less analysis and more first hand experience. That being said, I do want to add another team (not my own) for perspective. To explain kinda why I can't do the same analysis:

+AjTheEpic: .usage1695 Venusaur-Mega, teammates
*TIBot: Heatran +16.634% | Celesteela +11.694% | Greninja-Ash +10.503% | Zygarde +5.067% | Jirachi +5.062% | Tapu Lele +3.007% | Buzzwole +2.944% | Skarmory +2.611% | Volcarona +1.945% | Hoopa-Unbound +1.866% | Weavile +1.727% | Hippowdon +1.562%

Honestly, this list is a bit surprising. Part of it is Venu's just so incredibly diverse and shows up on different playstyles. The real issue is only about 63.5%ish of pairings of like 500%? are shown. Whereas sable was close to 300% I think, Venu is about 1/6th of that. So this analysis kinda sucks for him...

Also on stall, you're almost always going to pair him with a water type... Or a psychic type.

Tapu Fini @ Icium Z
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Taunt
- Nature's Madness
- Haze

Skarmory @ Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird

Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 21 HP
- Earthquake
- Reversal
- Screech
- Sucker Punch

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 100 Def / 144 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Def / 248 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Soft-Boiled

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head
- Wish
- Protect


Slowbro @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic
- Slack Off
- Psyshock

Skarmory @ Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Stealth Rock
- Counter

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 240 HP / 212 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Coil
- Thousand Arrows
- Toxic

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 100 Def / 144 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Def / 248 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Soft-Boiled

Magearna @ Assault Vest
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Aura Sphere


So Venu teams normally are a more 'core oriented' team. Whereas sable focuses on Hazard control, Venu normally benefits by just playing traditional stall and allowing Venu to be on the field as much as possible. I normally conform to this mold:

Venu, Double Steel, 1 Psychic, One Water, One Cleric, ground/trapper. Everything else is fill in the blank.

The first team is explained in the RMT in my signature. I'm not going to go into it much. It follows a Water/Grass/Steel core I discussed in gen6 as being better than the traditional FWG (2x Water Grass is better than FWG in most cases, and Water/Steel/Grass is a balanced upgrade from that). This is also cored with a Fairy/Poison/Psychic core. These two cores compliment Venu's weaknesses (the steel beating Flying, and the Psychic helping Psychic). The nice part is specifically Fini gains the same benefits back from the core (electric/grass coverage by venu, poison/steel coverage by Rachi). Rachi doesn't really gain the same benefits due to EQ still going through (Skarm covers that) but fire is better covered off than usual in this core due to Venu's thick fat, and Dark is nice and blocked by Fini. Essentially, the core does what it's supposed to do. If bronzong had better stats, he'd probably be here instead as that is the best core possibility with these two cores. This team is literally built conforming to cores and it performs exceptionally well doing so.

Second team was started in a duggy suspect meta (though I never had any intention to ladder). It's basically attempting to solve the issue of Heatran that Duggy solved for the first. Zygarde, Flygon are the only two options I was particularly comfortable with and while I used Flygon for a while, Zygarde's wincon is really smooth on stall. Same core, same concept. Core this time is venu/bro/Magarna which handles steel/water/grass and psychic/poison/fairy. Magearna was going to be 100% necessary in a post dug meta for Venu to counter Hoopa-u, but also does well vs TTar and as a secondary special wall for rarer mixed attackers like Tornadus-T.

Anyways, specifically you want to consider these threats:

Heatran (actually as you can see in usage, Heatran is the most normal heatran counter, zygarde also used, Sash Duggy acceptable)
EQ stop block (normally Skarm, Celesteela on balanced, zapdos... seen some Quagsire here too)
Psychic (Tapu Lele): (Rachi, Skarm both mentioned in usage, Heatran, Magearna also good options)
Flying/Scizor (Skarm/Celesteela, Rhyperior, Zapdos... anything that counters Pinsir)
Metagross counter: (Slowbro, Fire Punch Jirachi, Duggy)
Hoopa-U (Magearna, Duggy, speed Uturn rachi... revenge killer)
ZardX stop (Slowbro, Toxapex, Duggy, HazeFini? Rhyperior)
Cleric that takes ZardY (Chansey, Alomomola)

After you get that covered with your core filled out, you normally have a ridiculously good balance/stall Venu team.

A couple of notes about the archtype in general:

The hardest matchup for Venu is continental crush Landorus-t in my experience. Ground spam works so well because your one grass type is also eq neutral, so you pressure Skarm again. The easiest matchups are against fairy- and rain-spam style teams since Venu just solo's anything that can't hit him for SE damage. Consider either Celesteela, Magearna, Jirachi a necessity to stave off Lele. Using Steela means Fini becomes a defogger unless you go zapdos, so remember that.

Fairies are hard to come by that have recovery in conjunction with good stats. This is why in both teams the cleric should be there not to counter but to heal. Chansey in either squad has it easy as I don't want to use chansey to cover threats unless it's ZardY. This way, Magearna/Fini are always near full health. Double wish w/Rachi helps accentuate Fini's importance in particular. The team is INCREDIBLY dependent on keeping the core alive, and while it isn't all that hard to do, especially for the first stall the core's health should be considered a wincon in and of itself.

This is the 'easiest' archtype to learn in my opinion. It's a very forgiving style of stall compared to sable, has more obvious wincons and is less dependent on hazard clearing. The building process is BETTER when cores are used to develop the team, which is weird because normally cores are seen as archaic defensive tactics for beginners. Granted the archtype uses two overlapping cores so it can be a bit harder than traditional cores to put together but the point remains.


Ah finally:

Tangrowth @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 212 Def / 48 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Roost
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam

Rhyperior @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Spite
- Stealth Rock

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Def / 248 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Soft-Boiled

Magearna @ Assault Vest
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Aura Sphere

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Taunt
- Nature's Madness
- Defog


Jokes aside I love this team. It's got some cool heatran countering in ZardY and still goes full offensive. Spite Rhyperior is definitely an "aj set" but having a full heal is cool and you're actually surprisingly good in stall matchups (well considering you also have wallbreaker zardy....). Nothing much to say here, just consider it a cool team to see if there's any potential in ZardY stall before MAlt the god arrives.
 

AM

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To answer the question.

You know its a stall team by AJ when he color codes his post and has no sab, meaning he just loses to hazard pressure cause its so easy to maintain hazards against it. Its also using tapu fini to unrealistically do so much in one slot which brings up the point about trying to do too much at once. It needs to stay alive to stop keld from steamrolling it, its the only way it even comes close to handling opposing stalls which kind of shows the large inferiority of non sab stalls, and pray you dont have to face a chary + duggy combo or any breaker with duggy. The fact it has no trapper or win condition provides no real element to maintain any real pressure against teams. Stall teams necessitate one of these to function, all the good stall teams in gen 6 and now have shown this. I think your gassing up chary on stall especially if thats the showcase you are going for. Can you at least post high level replays, every couple of months you make these long as hell analysis of stall when I sometimes question how you come to certain theoretical conclusions and how you fool newbies in thinking your some stall genius when your own team structures would say otherwise. Shit sounds kind of harsh but this isnt the first time ive read something from you with my head scratching talking about stall.
 
If you're referring to the ZardY team, it's specifically not anything other than concept (as mentioned). edit: It's really not worth it. Have a nice day, AM.
 
Last edited:

Leo

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Long post
I'm a bit skeptical about Zard-Y Stall tbh. Yeah walling Tran is nice but that's about all it does for Stall until your opo gets rocks up (should be pretty easy with no sab) and then Magma kills you on the switch about 70% of the time. You also have a Tapu Fini which ks extremely easy to pressure and your Meta answer is a Tangrowth which gets 3hkod and can't put it to sleep under your own Misty Terrain (lol). You also kinda lose to opposing Stall after Dug traps both Chansey and Magearna and pressures you with Rocks Chansey and tspikes Toxa. Oh and btw trappers have been a key element on Stall since the GothStall era so that isn't exactly due to Dugtrio being good but rather due to trapoing being almost a must (a well played Hoopa or Lele could 6-0 your team for example)
 
So to the trapper part, the team was actually designed thinking Duggy would be banned. In that time I was trying to figure out how I could counter heatran and not really considering Zygarde.

ZardY as a staller actually isn't my idea (or even a gen7 idea). The concept was actually used with the first trapper (goth) back in Gen6 on the goth stall team Fingerscrossed made (so yeah you're actually right about that part). I admit Sleep Powder/misty terrain is actually a super annoying issue for the team. When designing the team, I couldn't find a good defogger to fit in, which is why Fini's there in the first place. I wanted an electric neutral/resist defogger that wouldn't add a rock weakness but as to my knowledge none exist outside flygon/latias. And Flygon doesn't make much sense because then you're essentially going another weak wall and doubling up on the same coverage.

Admittedly I'd probably run Zygarde now that I've seen the coil set in use but this was just one of the teams I made during the suspect ladder to see if it was an acceptable replacement.

Though Lele and Hoopa aren't the two I'd say would be the biggest issue. Definitely try the Magearna set (I also used it on the Venu team). I don't recall who told me to try it but Magearna has been really good vs those two in particular.
 
Most people don't use Chansey physically (and I mentioned that holistically it appears Marowak can be a problem to Sable stall). Chansey is unique in being one of the few good ZardY stops in the game (as well as stopping Volcanion, though not necessarily volcarona). Haven't used toxapex much and heard offhand he's fairly fine into ZardY but I think Chansey is still the preference there. Is it that Chansey is being used JUST BECAUSE of fire checking? Probably not. It's a great cleric and spdef wall. However I think that one of Chansey's most key secondary importances (or primary, where she's not a cleric set [MSU]) is ZardY
 
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